endgame combat twinking hot take

[Lotion]

If you can't find a wild animal to get fails on then you aren't looking hard enough. My plateau is not your plateau and if you're not willing to climb to the same heights it's no wonder I'll kick your ass.

[Jihelu]

What

[Lotion]

people always whine about how you can't get real gains on mundane combat types without sparring once you get to the plateau but the plateau is based on what you fight

[Patuk]

Lotion, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Lotion]

Combat classes in particular face the problem of running out of ways to progress. If you're not lucky enough to have frequent access to an extremely skilled sparring partner - which, let's face it, you almost never do - you'll hit that Wall of No Progress surprisingly early. You might not even be able to reach advanced level in your main weapon skill. You might be stuck forever at journeyman even if your character's whole career is in some martial line of work.

There used to be tricks to bypass this hurdle, but they were very twinky and have systematically been patched out of the game. Now we're left with a situation where becoming a genuinely impressive warrior is something most characters don't even have the opportunity to pursue. You can get to that level of "pretty good" where animals generally don't trouble you, but that's the same level that all fighting PCs end up at. It doesn't really feel like there's a reasonable route to greatness for warrior types.

this stuff!
the same thought has been spread so many times.
if the animals that uysed to kick your ass dont kick your ass anymore go fight the animal that kicks their ass
fight out what an ankheg is
go fight a monstercreature that doesn't have a helpfiles
that place you don't go because it's too dangerous? go there because YOU ARE THE DANGER

[MeTekillot]

I don't see how this is specifically pertinent to the Code.

[Dar]

It makes sense. I mean Navy Seals are badass because they are sent to fight dinosaurs barehanded.

[Lotion]

I don't see how this is specifically pertinent to the Code.

twinking is absolutely pertinent to code

[Veselka]

define twink

[Jihelu]

What

[Brytta Léofa]

without sparring

but why

[Dar]

Because sparring involves other people. You need to deal with other people and leave yourself open to interaction.


Twinking on critters keeps it single player.

[Jarvis]

¿Que?

[Riev]

What

[mansa]

but why male models?

[Lotion]

Because sparring involves other people. You need to deal with other people and leave yourself open to interaction.


Twinking on critters keeps it single player.

in the time it takes to organize one sparring session i could get three times that much gainz in the wilderness

[Barsook]

Arm is a RPI, sparring is a tool for roleplay. Twinking and no roleplay is a hack and slash.

[Riev]

I will twink on wildlife if I am absolutely sure there is nobody around to spar with. I'll get my fails one way or another... and hell, I'll take an RP sparring session over guaranteed fails.

[Greve]

Stop arguing in bad faith, Lotion. The existence of some obscure, largely unknown creature in a far-flung corner of the world that might be able to take you further than the remaining 99.9% of the game's content doesn't mean there's nothing wrong. And if players have to resort to blatant twinking in order to self-medicate a flaw in the code, there's a problem. As has been repeatedly pointed out in these discussions, the issue isn't that it's flat-out impossible to reach the higher end of the combat skill spectrum. The issue is with the things you have to do to pursue that. Usually they're things that almost no character can justify doing. Often they're things you'll rightfully get punished by staff for doing.

[Lotion]

I believe it to be true in my heart. If your characters can't tell the story you want them to then you are making a serious mistake!

[Greve]

Ok.

[Krath]

I have never had an issue with mundane plateaus...That being said, you need to be willing to lose your pc for the gains post high jm/advanced..it's not supposed to be easy and it isn't..it is also attainable and requires a ton of playtime.

[Lotion]

I have never had an issue with mundane plateaus...That being said, you need to be willing to lose your pc for the gains post high jm/advanced..it's not supposed to be easy and it isn't..it is also attainable and requires a ton of playtime.

Speak of weapon skill levels? What a ridiclous notion! I fight dujat worms and rantarri with apprentice weapon skills.

[Wday]

Way I like to Rp it and do in game is not only by the skill level. And yes I check skills often but I always figure age has a factor. Lets say a young person in the Byn masters parry at the age of 22. I like to think they aren't masters at it just very well known in  the skill. Same person at 30 is more of master at it by time and error yet the skill level we see never changes. Not having to venture out to fight something super bad.

[Krath]

I have never had an issue with mundane plateaus...That being said, you need to be willing to lose your pc for the gains post high jm/advanced..it's not supposed to be easy and it isn't..it is also attainable and requires a ton of playtime.

Speak of weapon skill levels? What a ridiclous notion! I fight dujat worms and rantarri with apprentice weapon skills.

Specifically of weapon skills.

[Shabago]

I believe it to be true in my heart. If your characters can't tell the story you want them to then you are making a serious mistake!

And if 'your story' can't be told without seeing advanced/master skills across your skill sheet right out of char-gen, you need to re-evaluate your story.

I've heard these arguments in the past. "I make a bad-ass warrior background and then my skills and stats suck! Concept ruined!'


....Why are you making that background? You know how skills/stats can be. Abusing the code or environment to achieve a paragraph concept that can be obtained through actual RP defeats the purpose of playing an RPI. I have said it before on discord and I will say it here for quotable reference. If code abuse / environment abuse is witnessed, those 'gainz' will be removed. Play appropriately.

This notion or concept that every skill needs to be a 'certain level' before you can interact with the player-base is just odd. I assume born from risk-aversion that has become rather prevalent over the last handful of years. Like, if you don't do it, you'll get steamrolled by someone who does. Self-fulling (and defeating) prophecy and issue.

[triste]

I have never had an issue with mundane plateaus...That being said, you need to be willing to lose your pc for the gains post high jm/advanced..it's not supposed to be easy and it isn't..it is also attainable and requires a ton of playtime.

Most accurate description of the scenario I've seen in this thread.

I don't think the way combat skill gains work is terribly broken, but it is jarringly different from magick skill gains. I don't want to spill all the magic beans, but it is fairly easy to max out most spells just by sitting on your ass (and standing internittently). But similar to what Krath mentions here, some spells do take additional effort to skill up and you might need to *gasp* leave your compound and *gasp* do this roleplaying thing Shabago mentions.

I guess my only gripe about the scenario is how much effort it takes. As a casual player with multiple jobs and multiple jobs, I have never gotten weapons skills past journeyman here. I used to be opposed to the idea of time based skill points that you can earn even when offline (someone mentioned this idea about a year ago), but the busier I get the more in favor I am of it. Might fix some of the gripes here.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I was pretty shocked when I stumbled across this thread. I don't read General much but this title stood out. If you are playing Armageddon like a H&S with RP elements, and you may be without even realizing it, you truly are missing out on what Armageddon is. I hope that you get to experience that feeling that has kept me coming back for so many years.

Also, I'm pretty sure a baby mantis someplace just died.

[X-D]

Wait, did I miss something, Somebody post something that is outside the thread title other then Shabago....one moment, going to look.

So yes, I went back and looked.

How is your post on topic Shabago?

Nobody posted anything about being combat gods or anything on day one. And in fact the thread is about the long haul, old PCs and the stupid shit they need to do to advance.

Now myself, I do not have an issue with it as long as staff does not penalize for it. Which they should not be as even Brokkr has stated (paraphrase) You will have to do stupid shit to get there.

Fine, I do not agree this should be the case, but since it is...shrug.

[Jihelu]

Unrelated but I feel I can get myself pretty thicc in the skills and offense/defense without engaging what I consider 'abuse' of the environment.

Which also seems...a problematic term. I feel it gets to the 'I know it when I see it!' category which isn't exactly...a good way to describe things (Now if someone can explain to me why the United States Supreme Court has used this term before I'd be very fucking happy)

[X-D]

And yes, What Jihelu said.

IRL, If I wanted to become good at backstab style attack, I can get a rubber knife and find me a partner and have a dummy. And eventually, I will become VERY good. Not in arm, In arm you have two ways to do it, You can play a psychopath and stab at everything you come across or you can "abuse the environment" No other options. So you did not make a psychopath, Oh wait, staff going to come down on you for using other methods.

IRL I have a 1.2second draw to fire on my primary EDC Did I have to learn that by drawing down on people in Alleys? Nope. I simply wear my gun All the time and practice ALL the time. After I got below 1.5 seconds I put a laser round in it to work accuracy. At no point did I ever have to shoot at a person.

In arm, this is not the case with ANY mundane skill. You HAVE to use the skill for real (not so with spells, go figure).

And then because the game was actually made so that you have to either do something that is likely OOC or you have to "abuse the environment" Though that is not defined....you run the risk of staff coming down on you because of the way staff designed it...Heh.

And to be clear, I do not have an issue with design, I have an issue with staff, who KNOW that the design means you have to do stupid shit, then come down on you because you did stupid shit that is not the highly dangerous stupid shit they prefer.

I will never get in trouble for taking my 10 day fighter against rantarri, which could kill him, I will get in trouble for taking him against 6 turaal with a rock at night.

And why, because There is no risk. And so staff comes down on you with some silly "It is not realistic." Crap.

Though, What is more realistic, Training in a manner that will Not kill or maim you or training in a manner that will?

Is it better to train boxing with pads and gear against a trainer or without gear in a money match verses Mike Tyson in his prime?

In one case you learn something, In the other case you wake up a week later trying to remember your name. Yet that is EXACTLY what staff prefers you to do.

Someone says OOC: "Why are you fighting rats in the dark?"
ooc Because he wants to get better at blind fighting.
Someone says OOC: That is unrealistic, stop it."
OOC: "You all made the skill, Oh I asked when it came into the game, How do I get better at this, Staff, you fight things in the dark and storms...So here I am doing exactly that and you have a problem?"
Someone says OOC: Yes, it is unrealistic.
OOC: "Then the skill itself is unrealistic."

True story.

[Lotion]

I believe it to be true in my heart. If your characters can't tell the story you want them to then you are making a serious mistake!

And if 'your story' can't be told without seeing advanced/master skills across your skill sheet right out of char-gen, you need to re-evaluate your story.

I've heard these arguments in the past. "I make a bad-ass warrior background and then my skills and stats suck! Concept ruined!'

You're right, that is absurd. Aside from gladiator roles or sponsored sarges being a badass warrior out of chargen is completely unreasonable.

....Why are you making that background? You know how skills/stats can be. Abusing the code or environment to achieve a paragraph concept that can be obtained through actual RP defeats the purpose of playing an RPI. I have said it before on discord and I will say it here for quotable reference. If code abuse / environment abuse is witnessed, those 'gainz' will be removed. Play appropriately.

I have never made that (badass warrior) background. I can think of a character I had with a notably heroic death which became a powerful fighter with stats many players would consider unplayably trash.

This notion or concept that every skill needs to be a 'certain level' before you can interact with the player-base is just odd. I assume born from risk-aversion that has become rather prevalent over the last handful of years. Like, if you don't do it, you'll get steamrolled by someone who does. Self-fulling (and defeating) prophecy and issue.

There are multiple factors which strongly encourage risk averse play. In matters of straight up pvp fighting there's a lot of narrowminded people who think you just have to have higher numbers on your character sheet which I find disappointing. If your numbers are lower you can still win, just not the classic meatgrinder style.

[Jihelu]

I will forever find it hilarious the game suggests in a helpfile, I believe the blind fighting or perhaps redstorm one, that people will commonly practice blindfighting by blindfolding themselves.
This is on the same level as 'weigh yourself down', which they've made actually fuck up your gains from what I understand.

The game suggests giving yourself a coded penalty to level up.
The real funny bit is there is no way to actually blindfold yourself to do this, all we have our the convenient dark rooms with 3 loaded mobs for twinking.

Also: Why does that room exist? What staffer put that there? Was it so they themselves can twink?

[Krath]

And yes, What Jihelu said.

IRL, If I wanted to become good at backstab style attack, I can get a rubber knife and find me a partner and have a dummy. And eventually, I will become VERY good. Not in arm, In arm you have two ways to do it, You can play a psychopath and stab at everything you come across or you can "abuse the environment" No other options. So you did not make a psychopath, Oh wait, staff going to come down on you for using other methods.

IRL I have a 1.2second draw to fire on my primary EDC Did I have to learn that by drawing down on people in Alleys? Nope. I simply wear my gun All the time and practice ALL the time. After I got below 1.5 seconds I put a laser round in it to work accuracy. At no point did I ever have to shoot at a person.

In arm, this is not the case with ANY mundane skill. You HAVE to use the skill for real (not so with spells, go figure).

And then because the game was actually made so that you have to either do something that is likely OOC or you have to "abuse the environment" Though that is not defined....you run the risk of staff coming down on you because of the way staff designed it...Heh.

And to be clear, I do not have an issue with design, I have an issue with staff, who KNOW that the design means you have to do stupid shit, then come down on you because you did stupid shit that is not the highly dangerous stupid shit they prefer.

I will never get in trouble for taking my 10 day fighter against rantarri, which could kill him, I will get in trouble for taking him against 6 turaal with a rock at night.

And why, because There is no risk. And so staff comes down on you with some silly "It is not realistic." Crap.

Though, What is more realistic, Training in a manner that will Not kill or maim you or training in a manner that will?

Is it better to train boxing with pads and gear against a trainer or without gear in a money match verses Mike Tyson in his prime?

In one case you learn something, In the other case you wake up a week later trying to remember your name. Yet that is EXACTLY what staff prefers you to do.

Someone says OOC: "Why are you fighting rats in the dark?"
ooc Because he wants to get better at blind fighting.
Someone says OOC: That is unrealistic, stop it."
OOC: "You all made the skill, Oh I asked when it came into the game, How do I get better at this, Staff, you fight things in the dark and storms...So here I am doing exactly that and you have a problem?"
Someone says OOC: Yes, it is unrealistic.
OOC: "Then the skill itself is unrealistic."

True story.

All of this.

[9001]

IRL, If I wanted to become good at backstab style attack, I can get a rubber knife and find me a partner and have a dummy. And eventually, I will become VERY good. Not in arm, In arm you have two ways to do it, You can play a psychopath and stab at everything you come across or you can "abuse the environment" No other options. So you did not make a psychopath, Oh wait, staff going to come down on you for using other methods.

The helpfile for backstab says:

This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

It doesn't read to me like something you can get significantly good at with a practice weapon. The key part being that these are supposed to be critical strikes. Learning where to stab to get at vital organs and past protections like the ribcage seems like something that would require actually stabbing into people/animals. Living ones, to get feedback on just how debilitating the damage you're doing is.

[Jihelu]

There are plenty of ways of learning the prime spots for stabbing someone that doesn't involve actively killing another human being.

[X-D]

9001:

So, let me get this straight...You believe that You could not learn to kill say, a hog, With a 14" knife without running around stabbing hogs?

I mean really now. So, Even if somebody tells you exactly where to stab and what action to take, You will not be sure of the result until you do it for real?

I can assure you that if you take a ten inch knife, plunge it between a persons ribs  just below the armpit and wiggle it around that the result will 100% of the time, 100/100, 1000/1000 etc be the same.

That the critical zones are already known. How to access them is already known.

Now, can I figure out a way to practice stabbing a knife through somebodies neck then slicing out towards the front so there is no chance of life continuing without actually doing it to somebody? Um, Yup, easily, and get very good so that if it did come time to use it for real I would still be perfect at it.

And backstab is actually the LEAST of these skills that force you to treat your PC in a pretty unrealistic manner.

BTW, I would like to say again, I do not have an issue with the design. If that is the way it works then that is the way it works. I take issue with other people, Be it player or staff that complain because you are doing exactly that because of the design they (staff) put in place. And call it abusing the environment or abuse of code etc.

[Jihelu]

You can also learn how to get fairly good at types of combat without causing actual damage to someone, a la 'literally deadly' sparring weapons.

I can get pretty good at fencing with I want to say a .01 % chance of actually dying. In Arm that percent chance is a lot higher for some reason.

[9001]

9001:

So, let me get this straight...You believe that You could not learn to kill say, a hog, With a 14" knife without running around stabbing hogs?

You're misrepresenting my argument.

It's not about whether or not I could kill a hog with a 14" knife, but whether or not I could deliver a decisive, 'critical' strike. Give me enough time with a secured hog and I could (probably) kill it without any experience or teaching if I had to. But the victim of your backstab isn't just lying there while you poke them to death. Usually, anyways.

I'm not going to be good and efficient at killing hogs without actually getting experience killing a few. Probably more than just a few.

I mean really now. So, Even if somebody tells you exactly where to stab and what action to take, You will not be sure of the result until you do it for real?

What you're describing is the equivalent of someone using the teach command on Arm. And yeah, that would help. But there's still a leap from being told or even shown how to kill an animal (or humanoid) and the experience of doing it yourself. Knowing what to do in theory is not the same as being able to do it in practice. And do it well and quickly when what you're trying to kill is capable of resisting.

So yeah - I'm not going to be confident in reliably delivering a 'critical' strike until I've had experience doing it.

As an example of something you might be doing with backstab, you could be slipping your knife between someone's ribs with the intent of puncturing their lungs. Learning the angle to have your knife and where to slip it in and not bounce off bone on different body types takes experience. Or someone teaching you, which the code allows for.

If your character is practicing things in a non-lethal manner that you think is appropriate for the skill, toss a request to staff to get your skill bumped. The code doesn't cover everything. But when it comes to being able to deliver a brutally efficient 'critical' strike before someone can react to it like backstab is supposed to be, your character's actual experience sticking knives into people is key. They're not going to just hold their arm up so you can poke under their armpit and wiggle your knife around at your leisure. Your character doesn't have the same resources you do to learn about anatomy, either.

[X-D]

Interesting.

Well, the reason for the example is because it is a method to dispatch hogs, One I got right the very first time.

And while I sort of see where you are coming from....it is not a good argument.

I shot my first deer when I was 9, I had never shot a deer before and it was a good clean through both lungs and the heart. At around 30 yards. I had no doubt I could do it, I knew where to shoot and I had put A good 40 rounds through that gun to make sure I would hit.

I did not have to pick up a gun for the first time and learn how to shoot it by finding deer to shoot at. Although in game that is basically what you are expected to do.

Now let Us say backstab, surprise crit strike right?

Now You set up a basic dummy of straw, and using whatever weapon you plan to use. And say 3 months later you have gotten your surprise attack on the dummy down to drawing weapon and landing your strike in under .5 seconds and accuracy under an inch in 3 different crit zones.

Now you argue that You still do not know if you will be any good because you have not done it on a live person.

I argue that You can be pretty darn sure you will be successful and likely even that it would be easier on the live person.

I mean OJ managed a double kill on his very first time out.

And the issue is not that it should not take a good amount of time to get to "mastery" In these skills. It should...And it should not even be all that easy.

But it also should not force you to turn your PC into hannibal lector Or some suicidal freak in order to be able to fight 7 mantis warriors because that is the only way the skill would go up. Both of which are usually unrealistc as hell, yet you won't get in trouble for it.

But if you take on 7 gimpka rats and don't get up right away after failing a bash. You are very likely to hear about it because Now you are abusing the environment/code. And it is somehow unrealistic to work on your defense in a manner that might allow you to live through it if you mess up.

And that is the ONLY difference. Unrealistic for the PC to do but might Die, Good to go. Handy capping yourself in a basically safe manner and realistic for your basically friendly PC to do as well as having Real world analog? Nope, might cause karma loss. To the point that staff has even gone out of the way to remove or code out the more realistic and safer methods.

[Greve]

I believe it to be true in my heart. If your characters can't tell the story you want them to then you are making a serious mistake!

And if 'your story' can't be told without seeing advanced/master skills across your skill sheet right out of char-gen, you need to re-evaluate your story.

I've heard these arguments in the past. "I make a bad-ass warrior background and then my skills and stats suck! Concept ruined!'


....Why are you making that background? You know how skills/stats can be. Abusing the code or environment to achieve a paragraph concept that can be obtained through actual RP defeats the purpose of playing an RPI. I have said it before on discord and I will say it here for quotable reference. If code abuse / environment abuse is witnessed, those 'gainz' will be removed. Play appropriately.

This notion or concept that every skill needs to be a 'certain level' before you can interact with the player-base is just odd. I assume born from risk-aversion that has become rather prevalent over the last handful of years. Like, if you don't do it, you'll get steamrolled by someone who does. Self-fulling (and defeating) prophecy and issue.

Literally none of this has been said by anybody. Please don't invent arguments that nobody has made in order to shoot them down. Absolutely nobody is saying that they want to start at master or that they can't begin interacting until they're done grinding skills or anything like that. It hasn't even been insinuated once by anybody. That's really disingenuous of you.

There are three issues at play here:

- The point at which you can no longer progress doing anything that a player can realistically justify doing comes too early. I seem to have noticed that it's actually worst for the heavy combat classes, despite their apparently higher chance to increase these skills, leading me to believe that offense is the issue. When playing a character whose coded abilities revolve primarily around conventional combat (i.e. not backstab, poisons, etc.) it's really boring to arrive at that point already at journeyman. Worse still for the class that branches class-defining skills from weapons.

- Most animals seem to have crap defense, even ones that are supposed to be very dangerous. Any non-animal NPCs that one can justify fighting (e.g. raiders, muggers, even most gith) are similarly pitiful. The things you have to do to get past that disappointingly early hurdle tend to be things that are incompatible with sensible roleplay. Sparring can do the trick, but only if you happen to have a very skilled sparring partner available regularly, which is generally a pipe dream.

- No other skills are held to this impossible standard. Why can I raise much deadlier and more abuseable skills like backstab, archery and spells with ease doing things that are within the boundaries of common sense for a typical character concept, but if one wants to try the upper end of weapon skills, people come out of the woodworks with farcical strawman arguments and insane gaslighting trollposts? Why is it so taboo?

Of course there aren't very many character concept where you need high combat skills. There aren't all that many concepts where you need master sneak and hide, yet it feels like half of the world's PCs have it, and one could easily argue that this causes more problems than warriors getting past journeyman or low-advanced weapon skills does.

At the end of the day, this is a game we play for fun. Raising skills is part of that fun. Nobody is saying that it's the only thing they care about or that they must fully max out in order to have fun, but it's a part of the game and it's a part of the lives of characters. For all the same reasons that a crafter wants to learn to craft the best shit, a warrior wants to become as good at fighting as he or she can. Yet one subset of skills has this unique, bizarre series of obstacles that makes no sense and isn't present anywhere else in the game.

As far as risk aversion goes, I'd be tempted to suggest that it stems just as much from the fact that you have to do these crazy and often contoversial things to progress past mediocrity on a fighting character, and this makes people very hesitant to risk losing those PCs. If that wasn't the case, if you could see steady progress doing things that aren't stupid and twinky and bad for your karma, maybe players would be more willing to risk their characters' lives, knowing that they can make another one and not have to go through that twinky clown fiesta again in order to raise those skills to a level where it's actually interesting to have them.

After all, combat is a huge part of this game. It has by far the most clans and content devoted to it. We even have a class that only makes sense to pick if you think you can raise a weapon skill quite high (cheesy subclass shortcuts notwithstanding). Pretty much all HRPTs revolve around combat. Combat is integral to most kinds of plots. Most of the pivotal events in this game's history were heavily combat-oriented. I would venture to guess that over half of staff's active interference with the playing field pertains to combat in one form or another. There are perfectly valid, healthy reasons why people want their fighting PCs to get good at fighting, and to have a progress curve that doesn't come to an unsightly halt after ten days played. It's not just a bunch of idiots screaming, "Waaah, I want to be MASTER and I want it NOW so I can PK EVERYBODY!!"

[MeTekillot]

Everything Greve said is on point.

I think power should ebb and flow in the game, including combat power. Dynamically flowing power structures (whether structured in clans, economy, or coded skills) makes for a dynamic, interesting game that doesn't feel so damn stagnant.

[Dar]

I gotta ask though.  I might be off, but the amount of offense does not affect damage 'too' greatly.  So, why do you care? If you already can hit 'everything' then does it even matter of you are at journey, or at master?   It makes sense for some classes, because they branch skills. But if you don't, does it matter at all?

And if there is someone who hits 'everything' does it not mean that they can hit 'you' ? And it they can, then during sparring, they'll improve your defense.

My question is, does it matter?  If your hit rate is 90% at journey and your hit rate is 90% at master, then who gives a shit?   Unless you need to branch skills, I mean.

[Veselka]

Offense/Defense matters but I won't really get into the nitty gritty. It's mostly PvP, and I DO NOT SHARE MY SECRETS LIGHTLY!

[Krath]

Yes Dar, skill level does matter..Immensely. That is all I will say because I am already on the producer poo poo list as it is.

[Greve]

I gotta ask though.  I might be off, but the amount of offense does not affect damage 'too' greatly.  So, why do you care? If you already can hit 'everything' then does it even matter of you are at journey, or at master?   It makes sense for some classes, because they branch skills. But if you don't, does it matter at all?

And if there is someone who hits 'everything' does it not mean that they can hit 'you' ? And it they can, then during sparring, they'll improve your defense.

My question is, does it matter?  If your hit rate is 90% at journey and your hit rate is 90% at master, then who gives a shit?   Unless you need to branch skills, I mean.

You're right, it's not super important to get better once you're at the point where you're fine doing whatever ordinary shit your character typically does. On the same token, it's not necessary to get better at stealing once you're no longer dying of hunger and thirst, or better at crafting once you can begin to turn a profit. But it's nice to continue to get better. It's satisfying when you're playing a combat-oriented character for potentially a year of your life and actually see progress, instead of noticing that it grinds to a halt after the first month.

There's a whole slew of things in this game that are not wildly necessary to accomplish. What merchant really needs more than a few thousand in the bank? What hunter really needs to be able to expertly retrieve every little part of every animal they kill? It's not required for one's enjoyment of the game. Nobody is going to tell you that because you don't have <master> in slashing weapons, you're not welcome in the Crimson Winds or whatever the latest cool people club is called.

But it's fun. It's satisfying. It's enjoyable when your character has a chance to rise above the mean level. It's why this game is an RPI and not a MUSH. Maybe there'll come a day when those in-game years of hunting or sparring actually reflect in your character's coded prowess to the point where it's notable and impressive. Maybe that's the day when someone goes "alright, that guy is the one I'm going to recruit into my exciting new endeavor." Or you get to be the one who wins this year's sparring tournament, or roleplay the local swordmaster who gets all the ladies. More importantly, it's not some kind of crime against the game to pursue it.

Why, I ask, is there this insane wall of skepticism towards ambition within this single category of skills? Nobody bats an eye if somebody wants to be the best armorcrafter in the world. Nobody screams "TWINK!" when somebody wants to get as good as you can get at travelling through a sandstorm. But when it comes to the sparring skills - weapons, offense/defense, and a few other similarly coded skills - anybody who expresses any ambition whatsoever in this regard is lambasted from all sides as some kind of enemy of the game.

Why is this? Why this hysterical, irrational skepticism? I can go out right now and roll up whatever class gets the highest cap in archery or backstab and max the skill out in two RL weeks, and nobody will bat an eye. But if I'm not satisfied with the fact that it takes increasingly absurd activities to get much further than journeyman in slashing weapons, columns of players and admins line up to tell me how wrong I am for even considering pursuing it? Why is that a thing? It's just so wildly irrational and nonsensical.

If one was to make a list of skills that are controversial and dangerous when they reach the upper end of the curve, the conventional combat skills are nowhere near the top. They rank far below much more easily trained skills like sap, backstab, archery, even stealth, and especially any variety of spells. But if you admit that you'd like to try to become good with a fucking sword, you're apparently deserving of scorn and ridicule. It's just so absurd and unintelligent to listen to. Can nobody else see this? Am I taking crazy pills?

[Dar]

Yeah. But those are not correct comparisons.


If you still fail steal and get noticed at journey, while you can steal flawlessly and not be noticed. The difference in skill levels is significant.

A craftsman can craft certain basic things at journey and make money off it. But at Master, they can craft multitude of things they couldn't before, and they can create Custom Crafts.

A hunter can only hunt weak common prey and bring in common hides at journeys, while at Master he can expertly carve out rare glands that nobody else could.

A Warrior can hit everything at journey and they can hit everything at Master ... wait.


Or am I misunderstanding things?  If you have two people with you. One is at journey, the other one is at Master. None of them ever miss their swings. Are you even able to tell who's at journey, who's at Master?

[Krath]

A Warrior can hit everything at journey and they can hit everything at Master ... wait.

Or am I misunderstanding things?  If you have two people with you. One is at journey, the other one is at Master. None of them ever miss their swings. Are you even able to tell who's at journey, who's at Master?

Hey Dar, your statement is situational. I think you are misunderstanding how the mechanics of combat with weapon skills work. If one is at Journey and the Other is at master, both will still miss. The opportunity for them to miss or hit is based on several things combined, weapon skill level being one of those items. The opportunity for a person with a Master weapon skill to miss is significantly smaller, than someone at Journey.

I can go into more details, if staff say it is ok. Or staff could just tell everyone how it works.

[Dar]

If opportunity to miss is still there. Especially if opportunity to miss is significant enough to really speak of. Then the opportunity to improve is still there, no?

I thought by a plateau it's ment that at some rather early point, people no longer miss. Therefore no longer improve.

[Lotion]

If your character can't reasonably do what you want them to do (e.g. get weapons skills to master) then you should realize that it's your fault for not making a character that could get your weapon skills to master.

[Veselka]

If opportunity to miss is still there. Especially if opportunity to miss is significant enough to really speak of. Then the opportunity to improve is still there, no?

I thought by a plateau it's ment that at some rather early point, people no longer miss. Therefore no longer improve.

It really depends what you are fighting. This is why Bynners all the time become 'King of the Ring' when sparring their buddies, and then get OMGWTFPWND by the first Baddy they fight.

Gith are different from Scrab, and PCs are different from Mantis.

You can look at it like this...Depending on what you fight to get to the level you are, you are likely to be 'best' at fighting those things. If you have a narrow focus on what you fight, when you encounter things that are not that, you will be much worse in fighting them. There is also a distinction between 'things you have fought and personally killed' and 'things you have fought but got away or someone else killed'.

When a Journeyman Fighter faces PvE stuff, they may think they are amazing at fighting. Landing every hit, getting great damage, and rocking it. Then, in a PvP situation, they face someone not only more skilled, but better equipped. Suddenly, their landed blows are deflecting off armor. They are missing more than they are hitting, when they are super used to hitting all the time. And the more skilled fighter is landing neck shots and doing insane damage, and hitting more often (!). You will notice different speeds of attack when you are fighting someone less skilled or as skilled or more skilled than you.

This isn't even to mention dual wield vs two handed and so on. Or Riposte. Or Hack.

So yeah, the combat system is more nuanced than 'I have Jman Slashing and I think my offense is good, fite me'.

I don't think Lotion's assertions are very accurate, and just some like troll bait. Any 'Heavy Combat Class' can and will get very good at combat eventually. You just have to have patience, fight things with real weapons, fight people that are much better than you, and slog up that hill.

[Dar]

If your character can't reasonably do what you want them to do (e.g. get weapons skills to master) then you should realize that it's your fault for not making a character that could get your weapon skills to master.

That's not necessarily true. Sometimes code mistakes happen.


My general point is this.

If people reach a point in development of their combat abilities where they simply stop failing on 90% of all the NPCs in the entire Known. Then higher level of combat development is needed for two things.  PvP (to get through those pesky shield use and parry) and for highest end 10% of NPCs that have a tendency to OHK a lot.


Don't you actually 'want' those highest levels of combat development to be gated via intense risk and intense effort?

It wouldn't prevent you from owning the 90%.  And those individuals who put in the ridiculous amount of work, or survived the ridiculous effort get to be known as the 'masters' of the sword.


How often do you feel masterful with your hunt on master, or your Hide on master

Haw haw. Master hide. You and every other miscreant in the city.

[williamson]

Let me state my minority opinion. I personally think that the combat system for the game is great. I like the idea of being able to improve your skills over the course of a long time. I like that a 1.5 year hunter is better than a 9 month hunter. I would suggest players gauge your skill not by apprentice, journey, etc... but instead by what can you hunt. I can kill a jozhal. Later a scrab..  later a beetle... later a gith.. later two gith. That's how I look at it. In fact, I wish the magick system worked like the combat system. Instead of practicing in a lonely temple which is often tedious and boring, I'd rather have to go out and use the spells in the real world for them to improve. Want to branch time stop? Then go out and stop time. Want to get to mon at create bicycle? You'll  need to conjure bicycles. If magick required more risk, maybe more people would play mundane characters which seems to be what the staff currently wants.

[Krath]

Veselka hit the nail on the head.

Dar: Yes, those highest level SHOULD be gated via intense risk and intense effort, much like in real life. I think the way that it is set up is fine, personally.

When people say Plateau, I hear that as, "It is now difficult to get gains."

[Hauwke]

If your character can't reasonably do what you want them to do (e.g. get weapons skills to master) then you should realize that it's your fault for not making a character that could get your weapon skills to master.

Not to be too offensive but this might be the worst possible take I have ever seen on this topic.

Your ability to hit master in a weapon skill should be limited (mostly) only by your skill maximum. Should it take a really long time? Sure. But every Fighter should eventually with enough days played be able to hit master slashing or chopping or what have you. Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually. But it should be able to happen.

Except it doesn't, unless you get exceptionally lucky or are a horrible twink who does everything in their power to grind against turaal's and other barely dangerous critters with high agility.

[Delirium]

If you know how to train, it's not impossible, it just takes patience. That said, there are definite hurdles and a lot of potential for wasted time. You don't have to be a horrible twink or resort to ridiculous measures, you just have to know what you're doing and be lucky enough to have the right opportunities. There is absolutely a plateau toward the endgame. Once you hit that slow grind, it is about patience and smart training.

[Armaddict]

stuff

This has been what I've talked about for a long time regarding combat skills.  The reason that there is a hard 'plateau' is because this is one of the few skill areas where master and journeyman are incredibly different.  It's a huge disparity.  -And it should be-.  But masters are few and far between, and legendary in their own right.

The problem is that once we revealed skill levels, people became actually -obsessed- with maxing it out instead of being utilitarian with it.  People went from sparring until they were the best one in their clan (which could be varying skill levels depending on the quality of your partners), to going out of their way to get skill gains (they risked death, but attempted stupendous feats!), to what we have now.  The attempt to do the latter from safety as much as possible.

It IS entirely unnecessary as your question states.  It literally has no importance whatsoever.  It actually works out beautifully the way that it is.  But it just became an obsession, is all.

[mansa]

I always liked graphs to explain stuff.
I made up these numbers.

This is a graph that shows the old classes and the new classes, and how the new classes start 'higher', but it still takes a long ass time to hit the top end of the skill percentage.



There's a few things here:
a) ArmageddonMUD does not have skill degradation.  Once you hit 'master', you don't ever go back down to 'advanced'.
b) Once you hit a certain level of proficiency, you've 'won' that aspect of the game.   Be that stealth, crafting, spells, combat.  You can't really lose anymore, unless there's some external intervention going on.   This is why combat scripts get added to the 'high-end' beasts of the game.
c) Combat is the most important part of ArmageddonMUD, as it is the primary way to kill other characters of the game.   The skill gains are designed to be slower -> It's a chance to go up every fail, rather than a guaranteed gain upon a fail.
d) As you get better and better at the skills involved, it gets harder and harder to fail the skill.  When you have a random roll between 1 and 10, or between 1 and 100, or between 1 and 1000 upon a chance skillup, those skills progression becomes harder and harder.
e) The game world is designed around players never reaching maximum.  There is a particular threshold of player proficiency that the game is expected to be played in, and you can exceed that threshold and 'break the game' as designed.
f) Characters that break the game aren't fun to play with.  They are only fun to play as.   Those characters ruin other players experience and fun of the game.

[Halcyon]

The game essentially has a 10-15 real year wait list to play your first sorc or psion.  I dont have a problem with a 6 month to year wait to pay a serious hardass killer.

I only personally see two problems with the system.  The more you abuse it, the faster you rise... bad design elements I will outline to staff in private with previous character examples, if they like.   

Serious fighters of most races dont really matter in the grand scheme of things.   Archery, backstab, poisons and spells matter.   Angry and skilled halfgiants and muls conditionally matter in fights, but not all the time.

So, other than design issues, I dont see a problem.   Your pc isnt going to survive a serious, prepared assassin or a territorial raider, sorry.

[roughneck]

It IS entirely unnecessary as your question states.  It literally has no importance whatsoever.  It actually works out beautifully the way that it is.  But it just became an obsession, is all.

Agree.

So, other than design issues, I dont see a problem.   Your pc isnt going to survive a serious, prepared assassin or a territorial raider, sorry.

I agree, in part. It's harder to 'be prepared' now than it was a little while ago with the changes to NPC AI in how it relates to harvesting dangerous poisons. Still, a prepared aggressor has a huge advantage in this game, especially if the player knows how to leverage the element of surprise... but is that a design flaw?

Other comments:
Sparring can you get you very competent, particularly when you consider the ability to train special skills like Bash and Disarm safely. Advanced disarm + journeyman weapon skill is incredibly effective and a lifesaver in combat.

It's already difficult enough to get PC's out of the training hall and into the sands. I would like to see sparring do even less for weapon skills to encourage real adventures. When I started this game, it wasn't the byn sparring hall that made me stick around. It was my first trip across the red desert with Iltrin and some trooper dwarf that got killed by gith and Iltrin saved my ass.

Master warriors should bear the scars of a thousand battles.

Don't be the MMA guy who says he's the toughest guy in the world but won't enter a tournament or real competition.

[Brokkr]

Should it take a really long time? Sure. But every Fighter should eventually with enough days played be able to hit master slashing or chopping or what have you. Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually. But it should be able to happen.

Blame oppressive mathematics, but that isn't actually how it is designed.  It is designed so that most people get to a point lower than that legendary combat character.  And for whatever reason, once in awhile there is a legendary character that has skills to a higher level.  It is not designed that someone just has to put in the time.  While that may be how you want it to be, that isn't how it is meant to be.  Again, blame math.

As for as magick, one of its issues is that it just requires required time to become the end-all-be-all.  It isn't like we are unaware of that as an issue.

The main issue specifically with weapons skills doesn't even seem to be competitiveness, either for PvE or PvP.  It seems to be that chasing the satisfaction of seeing certain levels of skill is frustrating, because it is hard to achieve.  I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

[Dan]

I'd be all for removing the skill levels from weapon skills specifically.

[MeTekillot]

Eventually. I'm talking nearing a hundred days plays eventually.

I think this is a completely ludicrous expectation.

[Brytta Léofa]

I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

Change the display for weapon skills such that "master" encompasses everything from current high-journeyman up. So it's like, e.g.,
   skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

Calibrate it so that master is still an achievement (maybe not every Bynner gets there), but then you don't get further feedback.

It's not a deceptive label. It's like getting your black belt in the karate--yeah, you can go on improving forever, but you're more than competent at all the normal things.

This gets rid of the feedback that some folks are feeling frustrated with, while also giving us more feedback on the way up to the plateau (rather than just "apprentice for a few days, then journeyman forever").

[mansa]

...
The main issue specifically with weapons skills doesn't even seem to be competitiveness, either for PvE or PvP.  It seems to be that chasing the satisfaction of seeing certain levels of skill is frustrating, because it is hard to achieve.  I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

I think it might be better to have 3 categories, rather than 5, because I'd like to know if I'm better than a newbie.  :|

Change the display for weapon skills such that "master" encompasses everything from current high-journeyman up. So it's like, e.g.,
   skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

Calibrate it so that master is still an achievement (maybe not every Bynner gets there), but then you don't get further feedback.

It's not a deceptive label. It's like getting your black belt in the karate--yeah, you can go on improving forever, but you're more than competent at all the normal things.

This gets rid of the feedback that some folks are feeling frustrated with, while also giving us more feedback on the way up to the plateau (rather than just "apprentice for a few days, then journeyman forever").

That works too.

[Delirium]

Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration. Improvement SHOULD plateau and slow once you're getting That Good. Otherwise everyone's a kung fu fighter and there's no sense of achievement.

I'd be willing to write up some kind of "this is how you train combat" guide so that it's not some guarded veteran secret and new players are on the same footing as older vets who understand the combat system.

Is this something staff would be okay with?

(source: I've had multiple characters hit their weapon skill max and have had characters with multiple weapon skills above journeyman, and I do not resort to "silly behavior" and am probably one of the most hardcore immersive RPers you will find... so I feel pretty qualified to offer this. It's a matter of continually challenging your character and working out drills that focus on what you want to learn, and combat styles that help you achieve your goal.)

[mansa]

Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration.
...

I think that because the skill levels are visible, they are absolutely something that the players want to achieve, and changing the levels / removing the levels would change that behaviour.

How do you know you're not at master if your skills command doesn't say so?

[Delirium]

Things are fine the way they are. Weapon skills plateauing isn't an issue of code, or how they show up. It's an issue of frustration at players not having access to opportunities to realistically improve those skills if they aren't lucky enough to be in a situation where they HAVE those opportunities, i.e. a suitably skilled sparring partner. Or, they don't know how to train so that they maximize their chances of getting a skill improvement and sometimes unintentionally make it harder to get those skill gains later down the road (and no, it doesn't require unrealistic behavior). The opacity around how to train efficiently is probably the biggest frustration.
...

I think that because the skill levels are visible, they are absolutely something that the players want to achieve, and changing the levels / removing the levels would change that behaviour.

How do you know you're not at master if your skills command doesn't say so?

Because hitting master is required for some classes, and removing the skill levels will only add frustration.

Because some players LIKE seeing that progression, even if it's slow. I love seeing my skills gradually tick up, even though I am a primarily roleplay-based player, I am also an explorer/achiever. This would take that away from me. Why ruin that due to a vocal minority of players being frustrated that they aren't at "master piercing weapons" yesterday because they don't know how to train or are impatient that they have to slog through the plateau?

If you don't want to see skill levels, hit 'brief skills' and carry on your merry way.

I will straight up write a "how to train combat" guide (like the "how to be a thief" guides). Happy to do so.

I don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

[Krath]

Because hitting master is required for some classes, and removing the skill levels will only add frustration.

Because some players LIKE seeing that progression, even if it's slow. I love seeing my skills gradually tick up, even though I am a primarily roleplay-based player, I am also an explorer/achiever. This would take that away from me. Why ruin that due to a vocal minority of players being frustrated that they aren't at "master piercing weapons" yesterday because they don't know how to train or are impatient that they have to slog through the plateau?

If you don't want to see skill levels, hit 'brief skills' and carry on your merry way.

All this.

On Brytta's post:
  skill 0-15 novice
   skill 15-30 apprentice
   skill 30-45 journeyman
   skill 45-60 advanced
   skill 60-100 master

I like the idea and would suggesting the following re-proposal, assuming a class can get a skill to 100..You would scale it based on the max.
   skill  0 - 20 novice
   skill 21 - 50 apprentice
   skill 51 - 75 journeyman
   skill 76 - 89 advanced
   skill 90 - 100 master

[Brytta Léofa]

On Brytta's post: ...
I like the idea and would suggesting the following re-proposal, assuming a class can get a skill to 100..You would scale it based on the max.
   skill  0 - 20 novice
   skill 21 - 50 apprentice
   skill 51 - 75 journeyman
   skill 76 - 89 advanced
   skill 90 - 100 master

Okay but that's exactly the opposite of what I was proposing. You want to give higher resolution feedback at the top end rather than at the bottom end? such that the typical plateau is high apprentice?

As a player whose buffest PC didn't get past, I think, one journeyman weapon skill, more feedback at lower levels is what I would personally enjoy. But I have no problem with the current situation.

I don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

This would be super useful. Stuff is not intuitive.

[Krath]

Hey Brytta,

I can see how that may have come off as trolling lol. That was not my intent. Maybe if we break it down into smaller subsets and add more "levels"?

[Brytta Léofa]

Hah, I didn't think you were trolling.

Hear me out, though...
piercing weapons [wek]

[Jihelu]

Hah, I didn't think you were trolling.

Hear me out, though...
piercing weapons [wek]

I laughed audibly.

[Armaddict]

I wonder if it would relieve, or create, more frustration by simply removing the display of weapon skill levels.

I believe it would create more frustration, at least at the beginning.  I don't believe showing skill levels on anything did -any- service to the game whatsoever in the long run, but as someone (I think it was XD) pointed out to me in one of my rants about it, the cat's already out of the bag now; people already know what to expect from skills at each level and what it takes to get where.

That is not to say that I think it's a bad idea.  I will always advocate for it to be that way again, because the opposite of what everyone said when it first went in place is what happened.  'If I were able to see my skill levels, I wouldn't have to focus so much on the grind.'  But I do think it's more of a player perception problem than a problem that requires code changes/display changes.

I don't believe in gating knowledge behind veteran experience and familiarity with occasionally obscure code.

What kind of guide are you talking here?  If it's a guide that says 'go hunt these things, then when those don't hit you, hit these instead', or 'It can help you boost up to blah blah blah during training', then I'd say no.  If it's an in-depth explanation of how the code works, and how sparring works, what the 'plateau' is and what it means as far as being one of the best in the game, then I'm all for it.  Kind of surprised it doesn't already exist, to be honest. ETA:  To clarify, I don't think we need a deep dive on how combat mechanics themselves work, because generally that is just...asking for meta-game over roleplay [i.e. You shouldn't do that, you're gimping your defense by using blah blah'].  But a deep dive on how weapon skills are different than the normal 'failure creates skill increases', and some relevant, roleplay based tips would be great.  The gist of it is, I don't think we need a bunch of people making the master weapon skill dream enabled, because I don't think that many should actually be attaining mastery.

[Jihelu]

I mostly agree with the need for a guide to discuss in a more OOC manner the way combat works.
The 'Don't use a weapon in your offhand because it won't raise your weapon skillever' talk is silly as fuck to have IC

[Delirium]

If it's an in-depth explanation of how the code works, and how sparring works, what the 'plateau' is and what it means

I mean how to train effectively, period, and how to roleplay doing so. In particular, how to spar with others so that you both benefit from it, as that can be a tricky wicket for most new players to figure out. Or even, it seems, veterans. This includes combat skills and weapon skills and offense/defense and how they all synergize together.

I do not mean "go hunt this animal while using this combat style when you're at x skill level". That'd be dumb.

Give me a little credit here dude.

[Jihelu]

Maybe the guide can discuss why the fuck I can max out piercing weapons in the time it takes kick to hit fucking apprentice.

[Veselka]

Maybe the guide can discuss why the fuck I can max out piercing weapons in the time it takes kick to hit fucking apprentice.

Clearly ancedote, as we are talking about how 'maxing out a weapon skill is difficult'. I have regularly gotten both kick and bash to advanced and master. You need to fight shit that can kill you and is better than you, full stop.

The issue is people are used to AAA games and the systems they create, or even MMORPG's like WoW, where you start in a newbie zone, become boss of the zone, and move on to the next zone, and increasingly start at the bottom of the food chain until you become the top of the food chain. Where you can safely become a master by the end of the game. These games all share one trait in common -- They are not permadeath. Those that are tend to have both massive rewards for surviving, and incredibly taxing drains when you die. And ArmageddonMUD is the crown prince of Permadeath.

If you are spending your time playing hacky-sack kicking your friends in the Byn, you aren't going to improve at it. You get better at it by kicking something that'll grab your leg, knock your ass down, and possibly kill you. And that seems exactly as it should be.

[Armaddict]

Give me a little credit here dude.

xD

Shit man, I wasn't asking the difference because I thought ill of you, I was asking because I haven't done hard combat in a very long time and I wasn't sure if things were still the way they were when I did, which was that sparring in and of itself wouldn't ever get you there.

[Jihelu]

I have literally never played a bynner past like 1 ig month.
I'm out there kicking:
Raptors
Gith
Spiders
Other shit

>Kick
>Apprentice

[mansa]

I have literally never played a bynner past like 1 ig month.
I'm out there kicking:
Raptors
Gith
Spiders
Other shit

>Kick
>Apprentice

If you have a 50% chance to increase your skill per failure, how many failures do you need to have to guarantee a skillup?

What if it was 25% chance?
What if it was 20%?

[Veselka]

I have literally never played a bynner past like 1 ig month.
I'm out there kicking:
Raptors
Gith
Spiders
Other shit

>Kick
>Apprentice

If you have a 50% chance to increase your skill per failure, how many failures do you need to have to guarantee a skillup?

What if it was 25% chance?
What if it was 20%?

Exactly. People are operating under the false assumption that 'One Missed Kick = 1 gain in Kick' which is not true. It's a percentage chance of gain.

That being said, they might be under that illusion because other skills (Hide/Sneak/hunt/scan/Crafting Skills) Have a higher percentage chance of gaining than combat skills or combat adjacent skills.

[Jihelu]

I'm operating under the assumption that fighting shit for 15 RL days played should see some results.
If the RNG is this bad it should be changed.

[Brytta Léofa]

People are operating under the false assumption that 'One Missed Kick = 1 gain in Kick' which is not true. It's a percentage chance of gain.

I don't know if this has ever been confirmed, but it's certainly consistent with my experience.

And if it is true, I'd really like to see it changed. It's fine that kick and bash take a long time to raise. We can keep that part! What I'd like is for folks who miss two kicks per hour to gain skill at the same rate as folks who miss 30 kicks per hour.

[Lotion]

Enforcer branches disarm from bash, raider branches disarm from kick.
Enforcer branches backstab from piercing weapons.
Enforcer branches master sap (the only source of master sap) from bludgeoning weapons.
Raider branches scan from direction sense.

I think it is beyond reasonable that someone not trying to game the system should be able to branch these in under 200 hours of gameplay on a single character.

[Ender]

I honestly think the way Kick/Bash increase is an artifact of the way combat skills used to be 15 years ago.

You used to be able to spam kick/bash endlessly without any stamina cost and no combat lag.  So it made sense you'd have to kick 30 million times to get a skill increase.

Now there is a real decision point on whether you want to use 'kick' or save the stamina/combat lag for something like flee or another combat skill which means people aren't kicking 10 times a combat anymore.

[Armaddict]

Enforcer branches disarm from bash, raider branches disarm from kick.
Enforcer branches backstab from piercing weapons.
Enforcer branches master sap (the only source of master sap) from bludgeoning weapons.
Raider branches scan from direction sense.

I think it is beyond reasonable that someone not trying to game the system should be able to branch these in under 200 hours of gameplay on a single character.

I dunno, that's kind of what I mean by the perception.  One vantage point says 'These skills branch at this point, so I should get to that point', the other says 'These were placed at these hard to reach places because most people aren't expected to have them', and I have always drifted towards the latter.  I can't speak for the designers of the classes, but I can say that even with previous classes, the viewpoint was not that warriors were expected to grind towards advanced weapon skills, the viewpoint was that very few people would have them and they were the mark of a legendary combatant.

[Lotion]

Enforcer branches disarm from bash, raider branches disarm from kick.
Enforcer branches backstab from piercing weapons.
Enforcer branches master sap (the only source of master sap) from bludgeoning weapons.
Raider branches scan from direction sense.

I think it is beyond reasonable that someone not trying to game the system should be able to branch these in under 200 hours of gameplay on a single character.

I dunno, that's kind of what I mean by the perception.  One vantage point says 'These skills branch at this point, so I should get to that point', the other says 'These were placed at these hard to reach places because most people aren't expected to have them', and I have always drifted towards the latter.  I can't speak for the designers of the classes, but I can say that even with previous classes, the viewpoint was not that warriors were expected to grind towards advanced weapon skills, the viewpoint was that very few people would have them and they were the mark of a legendary combatant.

Advanced weapon skills could be that back when they were a secret. Now I can type help enforcer branching and know that I want to get backstab or sap from my wossname weapon skills.

[Armaddict]

Enforcer branches disarm from bash, raider branches disarm from kick.
Enforcer branches backstab from piercing weapons.
Enforcer branches master sap (the only source of master sap) from bludgeoning weapons.
Raider branches scan from direction sense.

I think it is beyond reasonable that someone not trying to game the system should be able to branch these in under 200 hours of gameplay on a single character.

I dunno, that's kind of what I mean by the perception.  One vantage point says 'These skills branch at this point, so I should get to that point', the other says 'These were placed at these hard to reach places because most people aren't expected to have them', and I have always drifted towards the latter.  I can't speak for the designers of the classes, but I can say that even with previous classes, the viewpoint was not that warriors were expected to grind towards advanced weapon skills, the viewpoint was that very few people would have them and they were the mark of a legendary combatant.

Advanced weapon skills could be that back when they were a secret. Now I can type help enforcer branching and know that I want to get backstab or sap from my wossname weapon skills.

Yes, I'm not talking about it being hidden from you, though.  I'm talking about the knowledge that it's possible versus the expectation that it happens.  I think that may come off dickish to say, but I don't mean it that way, I just mean it as if people who got super buff would send in a request, and say 'Hey, I'm super buff, I've done this and this and this, could you add this skill?'  It would be a rare occurrence, but could happen.  I see those super high capped branches as that being coded into place...so just because it's there, doesn't mean that everyone gets it.  Just that the potential is there.

[mansa]

Yes, I'm not talking about it being hidden from you, though.  I'm talking about the knowledge that it's possible versus the expectation that it happens.  I think that may come off dickish to say, but I don't mean it that way, I just mean it as if people who got super buff would send in a request, and say 'Hey, I'm super buff, I've done this and this and this, could you add this skill?'  It would be a rare occurrence, but could happen.  I see those super high capped branches as that being coded into place...so just because it's there, doesn't mean that everyone gets it.  Just that the potential is there.

Do you remember the Krrx Combat special moves?  Fighting Styles?

[Armaddict]

Yes, I'm not talking about it being hidden from you, though.  I'm talking about the knowledge that it's possible versus the expectation that it happens.  I think that may come off dickish to say, but I don't mean it that way, I just mean it as if people who got super buff would send in a request, and say 'Hey, I'm super buff, I've done this and this and this, could you add this skill?'  It would be a rare occurrence, but could happen.  I see those super high capped branches as that being coded into place...so just because it's there, doesn't mean that everyone gets it.  Just that the potential is there.

Do you remember the Krrx Combat special moves?  Fighting Styles?

Yes!  I got to 'beta test' some of them with my gladiator, they were pretty awesome.