Armageddon General Discussion Board

How do you guys feel about the metagaming or powergaming aspects of the game and GDB, of late?  To my perception, it seems like these things are on the rise, and I don't know how I feel about it.  I am not much of a metagamer.  Min/maxing and the complete expectation that you will do it (and the castigation/judgement/ostratization if you don't) is one of the worst things about all of gaming culture, to me, and the reason I can't play any MMOs to the endgame.  I made my first character on Arm in 2000, and I am finding out things about skill code, branching, bonuses and penalties, etc. at a higher rate now than I have at any other time in my 16 years.  I think that says something.

If I had to look for a reason, I think I would probably point to prevalent references to other sources of information on the GDB and a more relaxed approach to singular references to code mechanics than in the past (whole discussions still seem to be frowned upon, but people making comments like "all burglars only hunt creature X for Y reason" seem to be dropping everywhere, and a lot of times, I didn't know these 'facts' before they were presented as 'common knowledge').  I think some of it also stems from staff comments and code changes (like the ability to see your skill levels), but I don't find this source to be particularly damaging, I just think it facilitates the other kind.

How do you guys feel about it?  Like, dislike?  Surprised by these sentiments, think I must be pretty unobservant to not pick up on code mechanics over such a long period?  I made this a poll so lots of opinions would be represented, not just a vocal minority.

I will say I have had character concepts that suffered because I never managed to branch or improve some skills that were important to the concept, but I also am beginning to get that feeling that if I don't skillmax in Arm, I might get kicked out of my clan in favor of someone who did, and I don't like that feeling.  I don't like it at all.  Thoughts?



P.S. I put this in general discussion instead of the code forum, because it's a thread about knowledge of code, not about the code itself.  (Does that make it the meta-metagame thread?)

Since the introduction of being able to see your skill levels at all I am of the opinion a lot of players have reached a "Master or nothing.", mindset.

I have had on more than one occasion people even brag to me in-character about reaching master-level in their skills. It is the most jarring shit ever.

"I don't feel like I can learn anything more about using my shield. I feel like I have mastered it.".

I have seen that no less than twenty five times. (Or some version of that.)

Kill me please.

I personally don't like it, and I noticed it has begun to increase, but I don't feel there's much I can do about it. It's just a fact of life - these days, all games are about the metagame. People want to win. They want to be the best in PvP (I'm guilty of this but even I know it's a collaborative effort), they want to have the best outfits, the best stuff, the most money... and Armageddon is no different. The difference is, Armageddon has a very permanent way of dealing with PvP that most games do not. It's play for blood, not play to win, in the world of Armageddon.

Yet despite that, I'd still like to see some things more open. I'd like skills to be more visible for newbies (in regards to each guild), and maybe even a helpfile - when you pick Warrior, it gives you the helpfile on Warriors and asks, Are you Sure? Then you can take a look, see if that's what you want your skills to be, and go from there.


I'm with you Monet. I've learned a lot more in the past year than I did on the four leading up to it. I don't know if it's good or bad.

I'm about to go grizzled old veteran on you too.

Back in the day I don't recall anyone ever really being interested or concerned with the behind the scenes mechanics. I recall some speculation back in the day that I found out over the last few years was actually very wrong. But that's about it.

These days it seems like there's a new thread every couple of weeks from someone trying to make the game "easier" in terms of changes to the mechanics.

Why does the game need to be easier? Why am I reading so many threads about people wanting things to be easier and easier?

Why is the "instant gratification culture" spreading like a "dodge ball is too rough" disease into my Armageddon?

Fucking kids.

(http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Clint-Eastwood-Angry-600x300.jpg)

Pfft, people were always interested in behind-the-scenes mechanics.

There are still old spreadsheets out there that list every skill tree, every spell tree, every psion skill, their starting levels, their maximums, what level they branch at, all the different poisons, all the different tablets, maps of the entire known world with detailed annotation, crafting lists with thousands of items, etc. etc. etc.

I'd say a good 50% of the things I know about the game came from people sending me that stuff.  The rest I've figured out on my own.  Granted, a lot of it has changed, but there's a solid chunk of it that is still relevant.

If you think there was some "good old days" where people just played the game without worrying about skills and mechanics, you were just one of the nerds who didn't have a hookup.

Agreed with Dman. It's like we're being expected to "dumb down" so that new players can have fewer, lower expectations of difficulty than we did coming in. Remember, a game is only as good as its worst player. When you set the bar lower, you will attract people who want a lower bar. You can't expect the quality of game we had, if we don't expect new players to comply with the learning curve we had when we were new.

It sounds like players want things easier for them to win. Because to them, winning should be a priority. They want to recreate this game into a PK-game with roleplay required, rather than an RPI with PK accepted. Improvements to the game don't equate with making this easier and that harder.  Easier/harder might be a side effect of an improvement, but it shouldn't be the reason for it.

To Synthesis: Yeah I have the map, the skills lists, the component lists, the Great List Of Vendors And Their Clan-Discounted Prices (which I made myself), the crafting list, and whatever the hell else is out there. But I don't bring that shit into the game. Just because I know what you need in order to max backstab in 4 days doesn't mean I plan on maxing backstab in 4 days. It should be intended as a general guideline. So like - if you're at 10 days and still haven't gotten to advanced yet, you know there's a way to speed things up if it's really necessary. If you're at 15 days, and you still haven't maxed it yet, you could probably send a note along to the staff asking if everything's okay with your pfile.

I don't care if people powergame, as long as they're roleplaying. I just don't want there to be a metagaming culture, in which you're expected and pressured into metagaming. Like how people roll their eyes at you on some MOBA games because you didn't stick to the meta when choosing your character. Otherwise it doesn't really affect me, I guess, even though I voted for options 1 and 4. Mostly I voted that there's too much metagaming because I'm afraid that it IS starting to be considered "required."

Even when I started playing, and I've told this story a few times, I started out and was immediately "branded" by a Red Fang and made to do their bidding. I had no knowledge of the world beyond skimming some stuff, and I ended up being horribly in over my head. It's taken me almost six years to get to the point where I'm actually a "viable" player who tries his hardest to contribute more to the game world at large than he brings in for himself. I play for other people.

I despite solo RP. I despise thinking/feeling because it's something that an extreme few can see, and sometimes it feels ungratifying to do it. I still do it, occasionally.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 03, 2016, 05:59:57 PM
Agreed. It's like we're being expected to "dumb down" so that new players can have fewer, lower expectations of difficulty than we did coming in. Remember, a game is only as good as its worst player. When you set the bar lower, you will attract people who want a lower bar. You can't expect the quality of game we had, if we don't expect new players to comply with the learning curve we had when we were new.

It sounds like players want things easier for them to win. Because to them, winning should be a priority. They want to recreate this game into a PK-game with roleplay required, rather than an RPI with PK accepted. Improvements to the game don't equate with making this easier and that harder.  Easier/harder might be a side effect of an improvement, but it shouldn't be the reason for it.

That PC that got enslaved"" by the Red Fang later was dragged off the Gaur-Pandu, thrown to the edge, and mercilessly killed. That was my 2 hours intro to Armageddon. I was fucking HOOKED.

I think this boils down to meta-gamers are gonna meta-game and RPers are "only" going to meta-game until they get their character to the point they envisioned being able to play at.  The fact you generally need to master one skill to branch another that is deemed needed or very useful only contributes to this.  Maybe branching at early advanced would calm folks down?  I don't know.  I do know there are some skills I only use "a lot" until they get to the point I see if they branch, then I use them very sparingly afterwards.

What I think is somewhat harmful to Armageddon is the number of things that should be pretty common knowledge that are sometimes as difficult to learn as the truly arcane and mysterious.  Seeking out this knowledge is also sometimes considered metagamey.  For example, a map of the city of Allanak, the list of common crafts available to guilds and the tools they might use, and any ability to compare the quality of equipment at least to the level of poor / average / good / wow.

I think IC lore can and should be gained ICly.  Wanting basic OOC mechanics isn't meta-gamey to it's asking for the tools to build a character so we don't have to get months into a character only to learn... oh, yeah, nope.  You'll never get that thing you made as your goal because you thought it made sense (noob).

As far as the original concern goes...I've never been kicked out of a clan for "sucking," but then again...I hate sucking, so I usually don't suck.

But, but...if your PC is a useless sack of turds, nobody should feel obligated to pay you coins, give you food, give you water, and give you shelter just because you can speak sirihish, use the Way, and have journeyman cook.  If your PC is legitimately useless IC, they should be treated as such, and that isn't metagamey...it's just fucking common sense.

So, either man up and admit to your boss that you're really only good at stealing shit from backpacks and crafting ropes and baskets, and see if they can find a niche use for you, or suck it up and don't cry when they fire you because they hired you as a hunter and you couldn't skin a chalton if a maxed ranger started the job for you.

Quote from: whitt on February 03, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
a map of the city of Allanak

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49533.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49533.0.html)

:-*


^I am not saying there are not some aspects of information external (really, any person from Allanak has that map on their head, it isn't external, but you get the point) to the game that aren't almost universally beneficial.  And contrary to your point, Synth, it's not because I didn't or don't have a hookup.  I have certain maps and things.  I have made others (^), made my own tables through research about crafting recipes, etc.  I have a very thorough table of Kuraci goods, prices, etc. that I made when I was playing a master Kuraci merchant.  You know what I did with it?  I kept it to myself.  If someone else wants to make a master Kuraci merchant, they can earn that information with the experience.  And you know what I would do now if a Kuraci merchant told one of my chars that the price of some good was three times what I know it to be?  I would pay it (or not, if I couldn't afford it), but I wouldn't argue, because my current char doesn't know that info.

I'm not saying I embody the standard, but neither am I bemoaning some lost glory days.  Every day is a chance to increase the amount of meta information out there, or try to keep it the same.  You can't put that cat back in the bag once it's out, though.  And I think a lot of people have been choosing the former, lately.  That's what this is about.

The mountain we all climb. The arms race.

See I remember not having a clue and getting frustrated often when it felt I was getting knocked down the mountain before I could even smell the air.  I quit over it, like twice, just fustrated feeling veterans players were holding that knowledge over my head. (Younger then).


Then I got the clues and although the top of the mountain was no longer the mystery it once was, at least I know how to climb now and how long that climb is.  Finding that trail blazed by dozens of players before me.

One part of me is glad to have the knowledge, no longer fumbling in the dark because I lack an AIM name.

The other part is sad, what mystery was, no longer remains.  There's no putting that cat back in the bag, very few people are without the knowledge now.

Though ultimately It in some ways empowers people to role play more but at the cost of them roleplaying less in the beginning.


A good example, why on earth would I ever join a clan which is only going to actively hem and stop my coded progress? Better to spend the first ~20 days indie accomplishing that bullshit before I get schedules and rules laden upon my head.  No matter how good the role play, the lack of coded skill, the lack of progress will hover in the back of my head.  On some OOC level I will live in constant fear that all my role play/effort will be invalidated by the guy who decided to grind high agility creatures for a couple of months.

The guy who grinded, followed the meta guidelines can roll into a clan a full actualized hunter/warrior/master thief.

It's kind of shitty, but that's the nature of the meta-game and if Synthesis is anything to go by, it's always sort of been that way.  Just not out in the open.  Without a code overhaul it's going to be hard to really change, no one wants to 'lose' over and over again, because they were socially busy while the other player was turning lizards into reptilian hamburger.

I voted yes and we all know why it increased, because skill timers/tips/advice and lot of info in available via google search now.  To hear some, Armageddon has always been a skills arm race.

Do I wish it was more RP focused? Hell yes, I hate the skill grind.  I don't really enjoy being concerned about the meta, I get some what out of focus with my PC's sometimes.  First few days played? It's a skill sheet, cause it's squishy and useless and not even I the player of the PC want to put forth the effort on something squishy and useless.

Yet I have too, I feel obligated to meta the shit out of a PC.  The meta is there loaming in the shadows and it's threatening.  Not everyone wants to roll into a new PC planning to lose with no hope of 'winning' (lacking better terms) because there is a handful of PC's/players full willing to use that meta knowledge to further their plots and possibly end yours.  With the only deciding factor is you failed to meta as hard as they did.


You can have staff do a massive crackdown, watch a dozen or so less players on the who's list, maybe create some massive anal irritation for a few of the out spoken.

Code changes could be put in place, invalidating current meta knowledge, but that's a lot of work to ask.

You could try to change the current culture, focus players back away from winning with code, being concerned with skills, but that difficult, once the Skill mastery arms race starts, it's hard to stop.

The poll's kind of silly, of course it's increased, it's utterly evident.  The real question, what do we all do about it as a community?

Also, for the record, I'm not attacking people who metagame.  If that is what makes this game fun for you, knock yourself out (or me, which is more likely).  But this trend kinda has the bionic man effect: that is, when everyone is an augmented human except you, the defintion of what "sucking" is changes.

I don't mind if you skillmax.  But if this game gets to point where I have to skillmax in order not to look like a day 1 vp, vp, vp, vp character all the time, I see that as a problem.

(Also, I'm not whining about playing a pickpocket in a war clan.  I'm taking about playing a ranger, or a warrior, and having others say things like: "You can't do thing X yet?  What's wrong with you?")

The unfortunate thing about the metagame is that the game's code, when it comes to skill progression and the like, isn't as complex as people think it is. It is actually very simple, and works exactly as described in the help files. Could it be improved? Perhaps - it always could be improved, and only requires a discussion staff-side as well as reasoned player input to figure out exactly how.

However, a lot of incorrect assertions float around, get repeated, and are eventually accepted as truth. Usually they are "proven" by someone who is believed to have had a strong character skills-wise, but in reality their character's strength was incidental, in the sense it didn't come about precisely the way they think it did - or, at least, that it came about the way they thought, but numerous alternate methods would have worked just as well.

In the end, this is a roleplaying game. There is nothing explicitly stopping players from maxing out their characters' skills (or trying to) by doing <insert senseless thing here> (of course, there's nothing stopping staff from making note of it either). But if you have a high-skilled character and you're not roleplaying, then you're missing the point of the game. That, to me, is much worse than simply wanting to have a competent character, and going about it in a relatively normal way. Not worse for the game, per se, because the vast majority of players roleplay normally - but worse for the player themselves, because they are wasting their time skilling up when they could be doing something more interesting with their time.

On the subject of competence, I think the visible skill levels didn't necessarily cause the metagame, but twisted players' viewpoint of what a "good enough" skill level is. When previously "good enough" in a combat skill was measured by how your PC did in a fight against something or someone, now it is measured by one of five words that each represent a broad range in ability. PKing simply doesn't happen enough in the game to justify the concept of becoming better than other players fast enough so that your PC can defend themselves against them.

Ultimately we are trending toward giving players the information they need to build a character they actually want to play. Obviously we would rather see players' focus fixed on roleplay, rather than coded advancement for the sake of itself.

The visible skill levels don't matter at all, dudes, to anyone who knows anything about anything.

What matters is branching.  It's not our fault that the teenage boys who created this game set the system up so that branching (unless it's from an extended subguild, or the rare case where your guild maxes out at a low level) requires you to be a grandmaster in something else.

If anything, seeing the visible skill levels has -decreased- the amount of spammy grinding I do, because I know exactly how far I have left to go, and how long it's going to take, and I don't need to get impatient and spammy about it, because I know I'm at journeyman, and I'll just have to keep sucking it up for a while.  It's also revealed that heeey, some things you can just fail once in a blue moon and they go up reeeeeal quick just like that, so spamming them when I was a noob was completely unnecessary.

Quote from: James de Monet on February 03, 2016, 06:28:48 PM

Quote from: whitt on February 03, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
a map of the city of Allanak

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49533.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49533.0.html)

:-*

I love this map, fyi.  I regularly send the link to new players I run into.  But... I'm an apothecary.  Show me on this map where the herbalist is... that's what I mean.

Did I mention this map is awesome?

If branching as a concept was looked at, and there were serious considerations to allowing characters their "full" potential not locked behind fail-gates, then there'd be a lot less metagaming and powergaming.  ;D

I will never play another Merchant Guild, because I feel like, in order to be useful to my clan / my friends in any reasonable amount of time, I have to fail at making X 30 times, and then X 30 times, and then [insert secret skill branching secrets here] in order to begin being useful to anyone. And you can't tell me otherwise: I knew that I was not useful to anyone.

Nothing so terribly vile as the Merchant grind comes to mind at the moment. It's not for me, because the way the code is set up defies any sort of realistic basis or understanding. I have helped tan skins IRL, for the record. I had no respect for that system and spared it as little time as possible, and, in the end, it burned me out.

I think that's one of the roots for the amount of twinkery going on; players have jumped through the hoops so many times, or despise jumping through the hoops, that they go about doing it as fast as possible and RP be damned. Find an excuse to go abandon your IC clan schedule and go outside to grind on a stilt lizard, some people on the GDB have suggested. If we look at one of the primary reasons why these sorts of things happen (raising skill X to Y level to branch), and fix that, then that cuts out a cause and improves the RP aspects of the game, in my opinion.

Rather than vote, I'd put an opinion close to Syth's up on this:  I think its naive to believe people haven't been and still don't meta game the crap out of things.  I've seen them years ago, I see them now.  And by 'meta game' I do mean behavior close to or absolutely cheating and exploitation, with intention to.

I mostly agree it has always been this way. But lately I have noticed people do in game more, especially ignoring vnpc populations, and spamming look in crowded (virtually) areas, as well as watching the one PC rinther/elf as soon as they walk in to the bar and such.

Quote from: whitt on February 03, 2016, 07:10:21 PM
Show me on this map where the herbalist is... that's what I mean.

Ohhhh, gotcha.  I tried to stay as close to the original ASCII map's level of info as possible, aside from street names and well known info. (Which, as here, he always subject to interpretation).


Kryos, you're making me see that my poll wording is somewhat at odds with my post.  I'm fully aware that there used to be, and remain, some players who just want to full throttle twink.  I'm not complaining about that.  I'm complaining about the fact that the occurrences of meta info being talked about in the GDB seem to have increased, that partly because of this, people seem to be utilizing such data more, and because of that, metagaming is seeming to become more of an expected norm, rather than the expected outlier of yesteryear.

I think I tried to meta game more back when I had no idea how the code worked than I do now.

Back when I couldn't live for more than five days at a time I was super concerned with getting as good as possible as fast as possible because I was on character #68 that couldn't get past the five day mark.

After your standard PC starts living over fifty days, you really stop giving a fuck.

You are going to be a master at what you do at 20 days plays just through standard use in your day to day life if your character isn't lazy.

The next 50 days after that you won't even have any skills left to get better at.

It doesn't matter.

I care about the metagame inasmuch as I sometimes plan out a concept in my head that is reliant on a particular skill, in conjunction with RP.

But I typically only want to know what works best, and quickest, so I can wake up in the morning, do my exercises (skill up) and then go find people to RP with and get into trouble.

I like skills. I like seeing what skills can do and I want to see what skills hide behind other skills. I want to see more of the game world and higher skills enable me to do that more before I die to XYZ monstrosity.

In most games I've played, a lot of this mechanics and code knowledge is passed around in emails, IM, etc. and it comprises the secret lore of the "in crowd".

That some of it is being exposed on the forum for a newbie like me to read and learn is only a good thing. I'm not using these skills to "compete" against other players and end their stories unfairly, so why does anyone particularly care?

The visibility of skills has had obvious and tremendous impact, though it is more subtle than one would think (as in easy to see when its looked for and compared to a before and after, but otherwise it seems innocuous).  I've talked about it multiple times, and don't care to go into risk-evasion and arbitrary OOC knowledge of skill-state again.  No, brief skills does not fix it, because that is self-only-modification, rather than modification of the behavior of all.

There has been a very noticeable rise in the demand for mechanics.  While there has long been an undertone of 'I want to be a badass', there was -not- previously an entitled attitude about how becoming a badass should be facilitated and accepted, which is how things seem to be at this point.

That's all I'll say, because I keep going on old player rants about then vs now and the differences, then deleting it because in the end I don't want to come off that way.  I will just leave it that I do think the metagame is -more- prevalent than it was before because it is more facilitated, where as long ago, the measures taken in that pursuit put you in relatively constant danger that few managed to live long-lived lives through.

One time I was walking a tavern and I overheard a couple soldiers talking. One of them said to the other how they have mastered three weapons, and was working on the last. They had a pretty interesting conversation of the value of weapon knowledge and such. I guess it could be considered gamey but you know what, it was totally in character, it completely fit and they were interacting, chatting, giving me something to hear and enjoy.

I can understand some people thinking the GDB has been sounding more gamey, maybe. Thats not a complete bad thing because it allows everyone to contribute to making the game a more enjoyable experience. For example are the Ranger's thread, and the other threads started by staff themselves involving in sub-guilds, it allows more people to contribute thoughts and ideas which is good.

However at the end of the day, I rather see everyone having the same access to information about the game rather than what it was in the past which involved many people sharing OOC information about ever aspect of the game.  Not only with other players but clearly some through their relationships with staff using emails, aim and even OOC gatherings.

Sorry, I  prefer more gamey people than cheating hypocrites... but thats just me.

All that said however, I think more knowledge has made things less gamey, sure there are people still seeking to be the best but thats always been around, the fact they have more knowledge of the game means you are less likely to see someone doing some ridiculous things in hopes of getting there faster.  I think lowering the requirement for branching skills to advance would also help in this regard.

I think in the past the staff rewarded RP efforts more visibly though. Something as simple as RPing exercise would allow you to ask staff to reward you with strength boost. If there is a drive to become good skill-wise its becuase people don't believe they can't get anything done through good old RP.

Quote from: Miradus on February 03, 2016, 08:08:43 PM
That some of it is being exposed on the forum for a newbie like me to read and learn is only a good thing. I'm not using these skills to "compete" against other players and end their stories unfairly, so why does anyone particularly care?

If you were the only player seeing and using this information, Miradus, people might not have a reason to care, but you aren't, and not everyone using it is using it the same way you (self identify you) are, so they do care.

For the sake of another metaphor, look at it like steroids.  If you go to a normal gym where only one or two dudes are juicing, you can "compete" for a normal level of fitness by just working out.  If you go to a gym where everybody is roided out, though, you are always gonna be a 90 lb. weakling (by comparison) if all you do is lift.

Same in game.  Just because you don't use those twinked skills to kill someone doesn't mean no harm is done.  If I am consigned to always playing characters who look like (and more importantly are treated like) derps because I just spar in the IC morning, and RP or patrol the rest of the day (the old "normal"), that still changes the game for my characters, and for me, and not for the positive.  Does that make sense?

Quote from: Miradus on February 03, 2016, 08:08:43 PM


That some of it is being exposed on the forum for a newbie like me to read and learn is only a good thing. I'm not using these skills to "compete" against other players and end their stories unfairly, so why does anyone particularly care?

Heh, it becomes like a nuclear arms race.  A lot of folks play the meta game, due to a cold war mentality.  Not that they simply desire skill(master) in everything. 

Whether anyone is actually going to being using it solely in a PvP sense is another story, but considering the massive amount of misgivings one can have about IC actions, it's perfectly understandable.

For me, the metagame shadow looms over everything, so I play accordingly.

It's not outwardly popular to speak in such terms.  But I'm not going to get invested in a low strength combat PC with shit skills knowing full well there are PC's pushing exceptional on the cusp of advance weapons after few weeks of metagaming.  That's the atmosphere it creates (imo) that if ya ain't master + good stats, you ain't ever going to be shit.

Whether its actually true in a RP sense? Doesn't matter, it only takes one instance for some bad blood to brew and everyone is rerolling and racing for combat peak. Whether is to raid folks in the desert or simply to avoid being killed by said raider, the metagame in Armageddon MUD sense, is forever a cold war between players.

It's understand able why folks dislike the metagame, more players are busy chasing the hourly fail then they're actually role playing. I'm guilty of it, and I don't even like it.

But my experience, no matter how narrow, tells me if I don't meta I'm going to find myself on a receiving end of some one who did. 

And I haven't even mentioned the shameless amount of guild sniffing people do.

Do you craft? No. Stealthy? No. Hows your combat? Alright. ~spars, does terrible~ GET OUT OF HERE ROGUE GICKER! (The following was hyperbolic... but it isn't unheard of.)

What James describes is partly what concerns me about the metagaming. I think people are focusing more on the "how can I win the code" than the "how can I win this scene." Or maybe they're equating "win this scene" with "win the code." It's especially concerning, with regards to new players who haven't experienced the game without the code-win. Those of us who already know the map, the skill list, the everything else, have already gone through the bright-eyed newbie experience. By spreading all this information widely and bringing the meta into the game. the newer players are being deprived of that experience.

Yes, meta happened before, it'll happen no matter what anyone does. But when the new batch of players don't understand why their character telling mine "use a saw to whittle your twig into a dart because saws work best" is jarring and meta and unwanted OOC advice given ICly - it tells me that we've gone overboard in accommodating new players' desire to win, at the expense of roleplaying a scene.

Hint for those who are probably exactly the people who I'm describing, because it's those people who won't get it: a saw is a big tool that is used to cut half-giant-sized logs in half. It's not an appropriate tool to whittle a twig into a dart, even though the code says it's good for wood, and codedly, it will give a benefit. ICly, it makes no sense. ICly, it is a pretty outrageous tool to recommend for the task of whitting twigs.

The change is rather insignificant. It's always been like this, just more people know about it now.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 03, 2016, 06:17:54 PM
As far as the original concern goes...I've never been kicked out of a clan for "sucking," but then again...I hate sucking, so I usually don't suck.

But, but...if your PC is a useless sack of turds, nobody should feel obligated to pay you coins, give you food, give you water, and give you shelter just because you can speak sirihish, use the Way, and have journeyman cook.  If your PC is legitimately useless IC, they should be treated as such, and that isn't metagamey...it's just fucking common sense.

So, either man up and admit to your boss that you're really only good at stealing shit from backpacks and crafting ropes and baskets, and see if they can find a niche use for you, or suck it up and don't cry when they fire you because they hired you as a hunter and you couldn't skin a chalton if a maxed ranger started the job for you.

I normally like Synthesis' posts, but this one is pretty dumb. There is plenty of room in the game for no-skill characters. Maybe not inside the combat role circlejerk, but there is plenty of roles and plenty of helpful players to support them.

Not having skills and being useless are two different things. He's not saying if you don't have skills there's no room for you in the game.

Thats what I thought at first, but that kind of undercuts his own point. Unless your character is braindead, your character has some useful skills. And yes, just being able to talk and be social is a useful skill in Armageddon.

As long as roleplay is the most important part of the game, I don't really care what people do with the game's code in the privacy of their home.

I like skills, I like rp, sometime I twink more, sometime I twink less, it depends on my mood and the character I play, but when it comes to rp I always give it my all (well, except when I know that the character is rp'ed by Iiyola, then I'm just like, whatev!).

Metagaming has always been a part of Armageddon but maybe it's more "in your face" now because it's 2016 and the spread of information is definitely easier. Don't think there's anything anyone can do about this.

I don't care if people want to meta game for whatever reason. I'm just happy if they bring a PC along that has depth and can live a story. However, when I  do see a lot of discussion on skill gains here or there, I worry a bit that newbies will see a culture more akin to RPG games, than role playing a story; that they will, for example, want to learn ooc recipes rather than getting their PC to search for a mentor.
I'm not arguing against transparency, I'm just saying.

Oh well, Malken has said it better, and I type too slow.  >:(

And the trouble with our saws, is that they are closer to being able to saw twigs than logs, if you look at them.

I don't care if people "metagame" or not, I'm content to play losers in Zalanthan society and that requires absolutely no metagame, so I am usually content and don't miss my PCs's skill lists or stats (though I will miss their interactions and stories and personality..) when they die.

It is also a fun way to play.

This game has plenty of enjoyment for "casual gamers" and stuff for "metagamers" to do also. Maybe metagamers tend to sit on the top of the food chain, maybe it doesn't matter as much as people think. I don't think it's anything to be concerned about: I want people to enjoy the game and keep playing it, I also want people to interact, as long as those two things are true then I am happy.

I wouldn't know how to meta-game even if it came up and bit me in the ass. When I first started playing, I equated sparring with 'gitting gud' so I would make my warmonger-types hell bent on sparring but after a year or so - I realized how lame it was and couldn't really build up the energy/dedication to do it.

In regards to others meta-gaming, I suppose it depends. There's always going to be someone whose stronger/faster/smarter than you, just in real life, but no one's invincible. I've seen the low bring down the high, as often as the other way around. That over-confident, twinked out warrior? Yeah, doubt you'll be seeing him for too long. And Staff do keep track of things like those who attempt to game the Hell out of their skills and will spawn an AI critter to remind you not to be so cocky, in the future.

My only issue is when it starts affecting people's choices in how to treat characters - Ie, guild sniffing being one of my largest pet peeves. I can understand a recruiting Noble or Officer wanting to know how well to play you in their group (should you be the guy up front, howling his bloodlust and hacking up stuff, or should you be in back, using a bow and patching up wounded?) - But to drill a player into basically coming out and saying "I'm guild/subguild" is where it bothers me.

A skill based cap roll and skill anonymity can work pretty well. It can be justified with talent/capacity coming with birth and you can not do anything with it. Not everyone can reach mastery at a skill. I have been practicing chess for years, and I'm capped at a level whereas 10 yo prodigies can reach to grand master levels with ease.

Consider this for warrior: (Max capped)
Bash [80-100] Meaning, someone's cap will be based on a roll at creation, such as 82
Kick [80-100]
Slashing Weapons [80-100]

Also hide the skills again, and there's no way someone would realize they where they are capped at, other than experiencing IG
For subguilds, should be like:
Bash [40-65]
Kick [40-65]

something like that...

I just don't want to forsake customization for the sake for variation.

Quote from: Malken on February 03, 2016, 11:34:06 PM
Metagaming has always been a part of Armageddon but maybe it's more "in your face" now because it's 2016 and the spread of information is definitely easier. Don't think there's anything anyone can do about this.

It's more "in your face" now because there's an entire forum dedicated, at least in part, to discussing the game's "coded secrets" and "skilling up methods" - a lot of which are, as I said, wrong, outdated (or soon to be) or simply coincidental.

Note that I'm not saying that that is good or bad. It's just how it is. IMO, it's the natural progression that was expected from a roleplaying game that doesn't focus on the coded aspects, despite those aspects playing a big part in the roleplay, and a playerbase that seems to largely be full of Achiever-types. It's up to players to decide what to do with that information.

What I find more disturbing is players' willingness to spread IC information about plots OOCly. In order words, abusing the roleplay rather than abusing the code. I don't care about people who abuse the code - mostly, I find it funny to watch and see what certain players think will work when it really is so simple. Spreading plot information actively hurts the game, and ironically it is done often by people who claim to love the game, or at least love what it could be.

I've never liked the idea of spreading plot stuff around. Five, six, ten year old stories? Sure. When you start broaching into the, "Hey, Lord Fancysmock is going to be doing this thing, and we should kill him because he'll be here at this time,"

Or,

"Random Commoner #232 is a Sorcerer guys, he nuked me because I found him out but I couldn't get a psi off."

Or even something like,

"Someone told me Joe Kadius's aide is actually a breed".

You're not helping the game. You're not "waving the flag of justice for all to see how misguided these people are or all the favoritism other players get." You're just shitting on a lot of hard work that players have to put into getting these things approved, to get stuff rolling, and at the end of the day you're ruining the thing you claim to love so much.

Just play the game. Or don't. But don't ruin it for other people.

I agree, Nergal - That is indeed the unfortunate side of that ease of spread of information but I still don't think it's anything new or on the rise, just different methods being used. Part of the fun of this game are the IC secrets that come with it, the plots and stories, and I think that most of us understand that and want to keep it that way, no matter how easy or not it would be to spoil it to ourself and others. On the other hand, game mechanics and code? Ehh..

Quote from: Nergal on February 04, 2016, 06:20:25 AM

It's more "in your face" now because there's an entire forum dedicated, at least in part, to discussing the game's "coded secrets" and "skilling up methods" - a lot of which are, as I said, wrong, outdated (or soon to be) or simply coincidental.

Fantastic. It's about time the basic progression system of this game was hauled out of the 90s by its hair. If everything on the shadowboard about skill progression turns out to be wrong or unnecessary in a year or so, I'll commend that.

Most of the information I've gotten about how skills work is based off of personal experience and helper chat. Frankly, the forum has been as much of a source of misinformation as actual information.

I grind skills a lot just because of playing the game. I'm not grinding forage, I'm looking for a red-spotted prickle weed. I'm not grinding woodworking, I need some stuff to sell so I can buy some gear. I'm killing this sand koala because it carries water in its third testicle.

All of my skills tend to go up through that sort of play. Knowing about how often you can get an increase, or whether or not this skill works in town or in the wilderness is something that could be included in the help files (and sometimes is).

How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 09:17:56 AM
How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

That's probably because such spots haven't really changed in 15 years and the more you play, the more you know of these spots. It's the rare player that will totally start from scratch and "wipe their memory" of previous geographical knowledge when they start a new character.

It goes both ways, really.. As much as I would love for these "spots" to be moved around once in a blue moon, once they are discovered said information would probably be made public as well - but I think I'd rather reward players who would love new locations like this than just say screw it because I know that this information would be made public the next day.

On the other hand, old crappy code systems like the magick system (at least in my very humble opinion!) just /invites/ you to "cheat" because of how bad it is. I keep saying that I'm never more ashamed of myself than when I play 'gikers, not because of what I do once I get the spells and how I roleplay my characters, but because of what I need to do just to get there (which is also probably why I don't play that many 'gikers to begin with).

Quote from: Jingo on February 03, 2016, 10:07:47 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on February 03, 2016, 06:17:54 PM
As far as the original concern goes...I've never been kicked out of a clan for "sucking," but then again...I hate sucking, so I usually don't suck.

But, but...if your PC is a useless sack of turds, nobody should feel obligated to pay you coins, give you food, give you water, and give you shelter just because you can speak sirihish, use the Way, and have journeyman cook.  If your PC is legitimately useless IC, they should be treated as such, and that isn't metagamey...it's just fucking common sense.

So, either man up and admit to your boss that you're really only good at stealing shit from backpacks and crafting ropes and baskets, and see if they can find a niche use for you, or suck it up and don't cry when they fire you because they hired you as a hunter and you couldn't skin a chalton if a maxed ranger started the job for you.

I normally like Synthesis' posts, but this one is pretty dumb. There is plenty of room in the game for no-skill characters. Maybe not inside the combat role circlejerk, but there is plenty of roles and plenty of helpful players to support them.

If someone has hired you to sit at the bar and use say, talk, tell, contact, and psi, you by definition are not useless to your employer.

I never said anything about being useless "to the game."  I was only making a point about the concern of the original poster, which is being fired for sucking AT WHAT YOU WERE HIRED TO DO, which is ENTIRELY O.K.

The only time it might not be O.K. is if two people with the same skillset are hired to do the same thing, and one of them becomes massively better at it due to code knowledge and consequently more-efficient practice, resulting in the less-efficient person being fired.  This is a theoretical concern, from my point of view, because I've never seen it happen.

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 09:17:56 AM
Most of the information I've gotten about how skills work is based off of personal experience and helper chat. Frankly, the forum has been as much of a source of misinformation as actual information.
How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

No, these are people who can't differentiate between OOC knowledge and IC knowledge and personally I find it disgusting. To me these are the worst type of metagamers. Take a look at Synth's post near the beginning of this thread. That shit is terrible. I personally think people who pass, have passed, use, or admit to using OOC info like that ought to be banned from the game entirely. Fortunately for those people, that's not up to me. It also has nothing to do with not having the hookup. I've had that shit offered to me and I declined. And I've had that shit sent to me and I've deleted it. Hell, much like the above quote I once had a long lived By Sergeant be shown a secret watering hole. I've since had other PCs nearly thirst to death in the exact same spot because ICly they wouldn't know it was there.

Sharing OOC knowledge is going to happen and nothing can be done about it other than permabanning people who are caught or admit to doing it. But that's not going to happen. Its also a disservice to yourself, a large part of the fun in this game is discovering shit you didn't know about. As far as OOC info sharing and carrying over knowledge from PC to PC the only thing we can really hope for is a staff member notices and takes great pleasure in karmacly ass pounding the offender.

As far as metagaming and twinkling your skills. Pfft, go ahead, you obviously haven't been playing long enough. Let me know how it feels when your 4xAI human warrior with completely maxed skills gets roflstomped by a 5 day Mul, a 3 day Krathi, or just happens to piss of the wrong Templar.

Wow, that's a bit harsh on people who just want a map or something. I mean at the end of the day it is a game. It's not considered kosher to spread that kind of information OOCly but if that's what it takes for some people to be willing to play, I'm okay with it.

I'm not somebody who knows very much about the gameworld, myself, but there have been times when I wished I had some of that "common knowledge" everyone but me seems to have, not so I could get an advantage, but because it'd be something my character would already know because of his/her background. I think it was my second character who was supposed to have been hunting around Luir's with her father for years, but I didn't know anything about the region, the wildlife, etc. I would have appreciated access to maps or something. Not Big Ancient Magickal Secrets, just knowledge my PC would have gained.

You can't really "ban" someone from a game like this, in this day and age; but that's beside the point. I think we need to cherish every player we can get, considering our medium, aside from the ones who are explicitly trolls or OOC harmful.

Quote from: Asanadas on February 04, 2016, 10:31:13 AM
You can't really "ban" someone from a game like this, in this day and age; but that's beside the point. I think we need to cherish every player we can get, considering our medium, aside from the ones who are explicitly trolls or OOC harmful.

You mean like people who spread guides that are completely based on treating NPC's like sparring dummies, explicitly?  Or do you not consider that harmful on an OOC level, to the game?

Knowledge of code and mechanics does not make a metagamer.  There's a certain degree of that that is necessary in a code-restricted roleplaying game to get desired effects within the constraints allowed.  But twisting that knowledge into such progressions and presenting them as 'good for the game' are not something to cherish for me.

I enjoyed this game with 30 people at peak times.  I don't need a huge playerbase. I need good people to interact with, even when IC actions upset me.  The above mentality jars me into an eyeroll and shake of my head.  Send that player away.  Their contribution is a release from the depth from the game, and a push into the realm of playing this like the typical MMORPG instead.  Which I don't really...call...RPG, the same way I do Arm.

Like I said, OOC harmful. They're breaking character to stab dudes to get buff. It's not good, but it's a symptom of the code. The reason some are doing so is so that they'll be buffer faster to actually be able to do things in the game.

The cat is out of the bag, my friend. Even if the numbers fall to 30, they're not going to be the same 30 as you remember. We need new players who are willing to play the RP game, and not this elitism, I'm afraid.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 10:30:01 AM
Wow, that's a bit harsh on people who just want a map or something. I mean at the end of the day it is a game. It's not considered kosher to spread that kind of information OOCly but if that's what it takes for some people to be willing to play, I'm okay with it.

I'm not somebody who knows very much about the gameworld, myself, but there have been times when I wished I had some of that "common knowledge" everyone but me seems to have, not so I could get an advantage, but because it'd be something my character would already know because of his/her background. I think it was my second character who was supposed to have been hunting around Luir's with her father for years, but I didn't know anything about the region, the wildlife, etc. I would have appreciated access to maps or something. Not Big Ancient Magickal Secrets, just knowledge my PC would have gained.

A map of 'Nak for a PC from 'Nak, okay. A map of the area around Storm for someone who grew up hunting the land, fine. But these aren't what Synth was referring to. He knows as well as I and a great many other players know that there exists and have been passed around great big excel maps with every little nook and cranny shown, detailed, and annotated.

It's these maps, as well as spell tress, full flora and fauna breakdowns, etc that I have a problem with. The kind of thing an honest RPer wouldn't even taken from PC to PC let alone pass around to other players.

That is not a symptom of the code, that a symptom of the player's mentality.

If it was a symptom of the code, it would promote everyone doing the same behavior since we all use the same code.  It does not.  This comes from someone very code-oriented, but there are very definite lines that are important for the player to be able to recognize and not cross, and if it's a grey area, acknowledge that it's a grey area where things might swing one way or another.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
I enjoyed this game with 30 people at peak times.  I don't need a huge playerbase. I need good people to interact with, even when IC actions upset me.  The above mentality jars me into an eyeroll and shake of my head.  Send that player away.  Their contribution is a release from the depth from the game, and a push into the realm of playing this like the typical MMORPG instead.  Which I don't really...call...RPG, the same way I do Arm.

Here, here.

Quote from: Asanadas on January 17, 1970, 03:03:21 PMThe cat is out of the bag, my friend. Even if the numbers fall to 30, they're not going to be the same 30 as you remember. We need new players who are willing to play the RP game, and not this elitism, I'm afraid.

Ahh, and herein lies the problem. It's not elitism. Its fondness for a product that can't really be found anywhere else and a fear that we may lose it. We DO NOT need new players to play the RP game. Let Mr repeat that. We do NOT need new players to play the RP game. What we need is new people to enjoy the RP on Armageddon. I don't play Armageddon to "play the game" If I want to play a game I sure as fuck don't choose Armageddon. This game sucks. I play Armageddon to live a story; to read an interactive, ever changing, malleable, shapeable novel. Simply put, I play Armageedon for the RP. And we need new people who are willing to embrace the RP, not just play the game.

I think you can look at those things and still be an honest RPer, as long as you use the information wisely and don't just find excuses for all your characters to "stumble across" knowledge that you OOCly know. The problem is that this is a hard thing not to do, and veteran players who came by this information ICly would end up with the same temptation.

I just prefer to judge people by what they do IG. If they're doing ridiculously stupid things IG or breaking character for the sake of skillmaxing, then that's not okay and I would expect them to be called out for it, whether OOCly or ICly. I don't care what they do or know or seek out OOCly as long as they are not spoiling anyone's plots.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 11:02:26 AM


If it was a symptom of the code, it would promote everyone doing the same behavior since we all use the same code.

How can you deny this? Have you ever tried to branch an advanced weapon skill? Have you ever tried to get steal or backstab high enough to depend on them? You can't do these things without months upon years, without bending character and finding excuses to do those things.

The fact is, people who do these things do so because the code promotes it, and empowers them. It's not the player's fault that he wants to be useful and have whatever sliver of power there is in a text game. I think you're coming at this without seeing Armageddon as a game; it obviously means more to you than that, but you're missing the trees that make up the forest. The code isn't perfect, and players are going to take advantage of what they can, and break character and make excuses, until it becomes clearly more beneficial to both them and their characters that they don't. This is basic psychology.

This is like deconstructing the Skinner box experiment by demanding the mouse stay in the corner, and not eat. It's just against game design understanding.

Well, guys, I hate to break it to you, but this "rise of metagaming" is a rather horrible symptom of power-creep, particularly in combat clans. If you have a good boss, they'll let you get by with not being the best. But if your boss is all meta-as-fuck, they'll start considering the OOC number of slots they have available and considering who to hire who will not only increase their survival chances, but actually survive a while. Even if they don't, if staff organizes a combat RPT, in order for it to be a challenge, it's going to have to be geared towards those who survived the longest, which basically, makes your squishy PC cannon fodder. And that's innocent enough, but I recall a rumor, not sure if it's true or not, that some staff members frown on guild merchant joining combat clans, but that's idle speculation unless some sort of confirmation is delivered, so to be taken with a grain of salt.

So you see, it's not just the meta-gaming players that are the source of this. It's actually a tri-pronged problem. On one hand, you have  power-creep, other, code limiting survival chances, and then staff efforts to limit the number of slots for each clan makes, this kind of thing a little necassary. I don't like twinking or schedules when I could be RPing instead, so, I don't happen to join clans with schedules or emphasis on skill-sheets if I can help it.

EDIT: Also, you guys have maps? WTF? I just wing that shit.

I'm sorry. I can deal with people finding silly excuses to do silly things like go hunt quick critters or only use the skills they OOCly know are going to end up leading to a branch, or whatever. But I can't deal with people flat-out breaking character and doing things their PC would "never do." I guess that's a bridge too far for me. Most of this stuff is water off my back, but to me that violates everything that this game is about. Obviously, skills that people feel they need to do that for should be seriously looked at, but in the meantime I have little sympathy for people who engage in that behavior, if you mean what I think you mean.

EDIT: It probably doesn't matter what I think about certain players, though, so whatever. I just hope I never have to encounter that IG.

I've never shattered character that bad, but I know people who have, and I can appreciate why they do it. If things are changed and fixed, then they won't have to do such anymore.

Most of my characters have died because I lose sleep if there's part of the game world I haven't seen or mapped yet. :)

That's my fun. Being alone in the wilderness, surviving the weather, terrain, and wildlife in order to see new things. I have severe vision issues so if there's more than 1-2 people in a room who are active, I can't keep track of what's going on. I'm not a social player at all.

Armageddon is big enough for a lot of different types of players to have fun in. That twinked up mul or magic user I simply am not likely to run into. And when I do, I don't tend to screw with them. I don't go into a bar in real life and pick a fight the biggest, roided up guy wearing prison tats, and I'm pretty sure my characters wouldn't want to either. :)

In all my characters, I've only had one guy try to pkill me without any interaction and that was in the 'rinth (which is a survival area all of its own). For the most part, you can recognize if a certain character is an ass and avoid interacting with them. Obviously some roles would have difficulty with that, but the type of characters I play just aren't really responsible for anything but their own skin.

I'm a twink and a metagamer and I am unashamed. :) I practice eudaimonia when it comes to games. I want the best stats, maxxed out skills, a massive understanding of the game world, and I am perfectly content working on that perfection alone through the game mechanics. I don't cheat and I don't generally involve myself in player-versus-player activity either here, or in other games. There's enough competition to be had through me versus the mechanics.

@Asanadas: Nobody has to do that, ever. If it's impossible for someone to max out certain skills without doing that, then those skills should never be maxed. I'm that hardline about it. The skills should be fixed but their brokenness is not an excuse to ignore your character. I have played MUDs in which there was roleplaying, but "good" people regularly went out and killed innocents in order to grind up their combat skills, then went back to the bar, acting like it never happened. I can't abide that kind of game.

I think what we can take away from this is, if we value our plots and want them to continue, and genuinely enjoy playing our character, imposed upon us by outside forces is a mentality of "get buff or get wrecked"... because there are players, sometimes staff RPTs, or simple random encounters that will teach you this time and time again until you get it through your thick skull and do something about it. I enjoy my RP, I like to think a few others do, as well, though quite clearly some don't, so I have to defend myself in whatever feeble ways I can against the ones that don't, because everyone complaining about the metagaming aspect is quite possibly a closet twink who just wants us to lower our guard just enough on an OOC level that they can be like, "Bwahaha! I shit on all your plots, behold my glorious butt-hole!", and trust me, some people are like that, they're out there.

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 11:23:25 AM
Most of my characters have died because I lose sleep if there's part of the game world I haven't seen or mapped yet. :)

That's my fun. Being alone in the wilderness, surviving the weather, terrain, and wildlife in order to see new things. I have severe vision issues so if there's more than 1-2 people in a room who are active, I can't keep track of what's going on. I'm not a social player at all.

Armageddon is big enough for a lot of different types of players to have fun in. That twinked up mul or magic user I simply am not likely to run into. And when I do, I don't tend to screw with them. I don't go into a bar in real life and pick a fight the biggest, roided up guy wearing prison tats, and I'm pretty sure my characters wouldn't want to either. :)

In all my characters, I've only had one guy try to pkill me without any interaction and that was in the 'rinth (which is a survival area all of its own). For the most part, you can recognize if a certain character is an ass and avoid interacting with them. Obviously some roles would have difficulty with that, but the type of characters I play just aren't really responsible for anything but their own skin.

I'm a twink and a metagamer and I am unashamed. :) I practice eudaimonia when it comes to games. I want the best stats, maxxed out skills, a massive understanding of the game world, and I am perfectly content working on that perfection alone through the game mechanics. I don't cheat and I don't generally involve myself in player-versus-player activity either here, or in other games. There's enough competition to be had through me versus the mechanics.

Very well put, my friend.  :)

Contrary to popular belief, the deck of cards model for MUD players still stands in Armageddon. It takes all kinds, and all 4 of the suits should be taken care of.

We've been a heart / club game far too long ignoring the others. What about the diamonds, who want to leave legacies in the game? The spades, who have no "new" area to explore?

There's fun in the metagame that adds a whole level of enjoyment to the MUD experience. Frankly, the first MUDs were exercises in the metagame, and that's how they were enjoyable. To just shun it and disregard it is fine, if you're getting enough enjoyment out of Arm as it is; but others crave enjoyment, too. I don't think it's fair to deny them that in our shared hobby.

Disclaimer: like I said, OOCly harmful practice like bug exploiting or vengance killing shouldn't be allowed. But the rest of the meta, I feel, should be looked at and refined.

@Beethoven: pretending like that is dishonest to the game medium, and I'd hope that staff would animate their victim's family, or tribe, in order to drag that character out to face their own action's consequences. That's the reasonable thing to do, and I'm pretty sure things like that happen regularly in Arm.

I think part of the problem is that we tend to post in superlatives on the forum, which leads to a faulty perception that things are more extreme than they really are.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 11:25:26 AM
I have played MUDs in which there was roleplaying, but "good" people regularly went out and killed innocents in order to grind up their combat skills, then went back to the bar, acting like it never happened. I can't abide that kind of game.

I've been on those types of muds too and I think it's a builder issue, not a gamer or code issue.

There should be enough areas and mobiles of sufficient variety so that characters of all types, alignments, and persuasions can adventure without having to kill the same thing.

A game I recently played had almost all of its lower to mid level areas built around goblins. So you were forced to get through those levels by killing goblins, in an RP enforced environment. So good players were like, "Let's kill the goblins in the name of all that is holy!" And the evil ones were like, "Kill the goblins and loot their gold!" At the end of the day though, you were all killing goblins.

One of the things I like about ARM is there aren't really any "level" areas. I wander about the game world which I've mapped myself via TinTin++ (just over 4,000 rooms thus far. Go, me!) and when I see mobiles I have to determine whether I can eat them or they can eat me. The world is really just an open world and crap is going on that I don't even know about because it's outside of my three room range. I saw a tembo kill and eat a tandu once. For all I know codewise, when two shik meet up in the wilderness they get busy making baby shik.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 11:38:32 AM
I think part of the problem is that we tend to post in superlatives on the forum, which leads to a faulty perception that things are more extreme than they really are.

Oh, absolutely. I don't like internet forums and game forums can be particularly nasty, vitriolic places but I am very excited about ARM and I can't just go up to some guy on the street and say, "I bashed a sand koala's head in with a bone club and got a skill increase!"

I have been playing muds since 1992. I have built and coded on several of them and know the DIKU code inside and out, but I've never seen anything as diversified from the base as ARM seems to be. Some people want to listen to songs on their new radio, and some people (like me) want to take apart the radio and see how it functions.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 11:25:26 AM
@Asanadas: Nobody has to do that, ever. If it's impossible for someone to max out certain skills without doing that, then those skills should never be maxed. I'm that hardline about it. The skills should be fixed but their brokenness is not an excuse to ignore your character. I have played MUDs in which there was roleplaying, but "good" people regularly went out and killed innocents in order to grind up their combat skills, then went back to the bar, acting like it never happened. I can't abide that kind of game.

Dead wrong, it's required if you plan to have a combat PC that may come in conflict with other combat PC's.  

Is it ideal? No.  But that's the beast, you might not have run in the situation but that situation has happened, further to the point.  I've personally lost PC's/lost conflicts because I did not actively meta-game.  It's a real shitty feelings getting punished by the code for doing the 'right thing' and while it seems there little to no consequence to do it the other way.

It's perfectly IC and reasonable OOC that I would at least like to present a challenge with in conflicts and if I can't actively avoid them.  Perhaps I'm a weak little newbie, but I don't dedicate my free time to be some veteran's or metagamers personal ego boost punching bag.  To shame players for it...

I dunno, for so long vets held years of knowledge over us silly initiates  and newbies, they no longer do.  I can't help but feel, that's a good thing.

Nergal's on the right path, hinting at code changes.  Change the code, change the meta, obscure it again, perhaps calm down everyone who utterly feels the necessity in making reptilian hamburger every hour.  Hell if branching happened at High Jman/low advance that would alleviate a lot of silliness staff and players witness.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 11:38:32 AM
I think part of the problem is that we tend to post in superlatives on the forum, which leads to a faulty perception that things are more extreme than they really are.

Listen man I'm excising my 'Merican right to Hyperbole, be damn if Imma let some one take away muh rights to make a HUGE deal out of stuff I DO NOT LIKE.

I think staff alluded to looking at changes to flatten skill progression some (which, I could be crazy but, I'm noticing some, interesting differences), which, I mean, if FAILS WEREN'T REQUIRED, we could all attain reasonable competency just by using the skills instead of rolling up a dwarf with a convenient lizard-hating, rock-loving focus. I don't play too twinkishly (I always have a reason for what I'm doing IC and I throw in a few hemote/emote/semotes and we're all golden), but it's not the players who do that's the problem, it's the system which BY ITS NATURE encourages outright, get buff quick, get master or go home, fail a certain number of times per skill-timer ding, join combat clan get swole, lord badassness over people who don't want to sniff your armpits or wear your jockstrap on their head and are just out for some reasonably IC conversation.

I'll just keep on being shitty and dead wrong, then. I can shame, will shame, and am currently shaming players who actually straight-up break character to skillmax. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I'm really lax about everything else, even if it's goofy or flimsy, but you should never be doing things IG that your character "wouldn't do." If you know you will be doing these things then you should make a character concept that jives with those things in advance, because I never want to see this game turned into the kind of game where it's understood that there are certain things that happened IG that didn't reeeeally happen, y'know. I've played too many shitty "RP" MUDs like that.

EDIT: I don't know what people are doing but if the words "break character" can be reasonably applied to them, people shouldn't be doing them. Am I surprised? No. Do I think the underlying issues that cause people to behave in this way should be fixed? Yes. But you can't just go around saying "It's not the players' faults; they HAVE to!" is just ridiculous. No one should ever be breaking character.

This thread makes me miss Halaster and his roving gortok packs of doom.

Beethoven is right: players don't "need" to do those things in order to play an enjoyable character. But to lead a combat clan, or maintain a secret plot, the leader either needed to have their skills buffed by staff in creation, or grind. There's no way to reach an acceptable level of competency in any reasonable time, otherwise.

I don't have any problems with being shamed. I just wish we didn't have to do it.  :-\

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:11:31 PM
I'll just keep on being shitty and dead wrong, then. I can shame, will shame, and am currently shaming players who actually straight-up break character to skillmax. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I'm really lax about everything else, even if it's goofy or flimsy, but you should never be doing things IG that your character "wouldn't do." If you know you will be doing these things then you should make a character concept that jives with those things in advance, because I never want to see this game turned into the kind of game where it's understood that there are certain things that happened IG that didn't reeeeally happen, y'know. I've played too many shitty "RP" MUDs like that.

Look, if the game system didn't encourage them, why would I keep encountering people in positions of moderate, to extreme power whose character, by all outward appearances, is simple a smily face drawn on a paper plate and worn like a mask over an OOC desire to grief? Maybe it doesn't happen to you, I don't know. But I see it often enough that I'm just, yuck.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 12:02:15 PM
... lord badassness over people who don't want to sniff your armpits or wear your jockstrap on their head and are just out for some reasonably IC conversation.

Oi vey. Yeah, I know what you mean, but I literally have only ran into that sort of person in-game maybe twice thus far. And for all I know it was the same player for both characters who had an unfortunate head-in-toilet day in gym class.

As another strange quirk of ARM, you could chart out the nastier interactions with other players on a map and by far the larger concentrations of red pins would be within 50 rooms of the Gaj.

I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:19:07 PM
I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

So you would rather continue being a victim of the swole jock syndrome, another notch on their murder belt, as they shit on yet another little plot that had next to nothing to do with them because, boredom? I'm saying, I would never leave a scene I was participating in to go twink. If, in the process of getting my tiny skill-grind on, I bump into some potential player interaction, I will drop what I'm doing to pursue that, there is where my priorities lie... however, there, sooner or later, comes a time where this crap is going to end up in your hair, and I, for one, will not just roll over when it does.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 12:24:53 PM

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:19:07 PM
I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

So you would rather continue being a victim of the swole jock syndrome, another notch on their murder belt, as they shit on yet another little plot that had next to nothing to do with them because, boredom? I'm saying, I would never leave a scene I was participating in to go twink. If, in the process of getting my tiny skill-grind on, I bump into some potential player interaction, I will drop what I'm doing to pursue that, there is where my priorities lie... however, there, sooner or later, comes a time where this crap is going to end up in your hair, and I, for one, will not just roll over when it does.

Dude, twink all you want; that's not what I'm talking about, and it doesn't bother me if you do. Just stay IC with it. I can't believe this position is controversial. Maybe people don't break character and that's great if they don't, but people have been saying that breaking character is a thing that happens, so I'm saying they shouldn't.

The concept that you have to break character or do totally OOC shit to raise your skills is adorable... and wrong.

Some skills are more difficult than others, yes, and you may need to change around your fighting style some for weapon skills. Weapon skills and kick/bash/disarm are the culprits, really. Your character just has to be willing to experiment with different strategies when fighting, instead of being railroaded into "THIS IS HOW I FIGHT FOREVER".

Maybe, instead, your character adapts what weapon and style they are using to to what they're fighting, how the fight is going, or what their opponent is doing. Gradually, they become more adept at using the right weapon and style for each situation. I mean, it's a personal choice, but it's not so black and white as "THIS IS MY AXE, I WILL FOREVER USE THIS AXE".

Just don't be that dipshit in the grasslands with a training weapon or going barehanded... not only is it unnecessary, we all know what you're doing and it is, indeed, ridiculous.

It would be nice if you learned regardless of success or failure, but on the flip side, you'd just end up with people becoming world-renowned fighters by hunting tregil all day.

After some experimentation with the code I'm actually okay with the status quo, save for the weapons skills issue... it does take some code smarts, but honestly, we have all the information we need to figure out how it works. All this speculation and nonsense about having to act out of character to get those gainz is well, just that, speculation and nonsense.

As for the swole jock syndrome, here's a thought... stop worrying about it.

Play your character, have interests and goals and likes and dislikes, and you will have way more fun than if you whined about how Joe Amos over there might have better slashing_weapons than you do. In the end, that swole jock is going to die to something dumb or just be generally disliked because they're boring, and you'll have actual stories to tell.

lol, ok, Delirium, I can see it hasn't been an issue for you if you missed what I was actually yammering on about. .. but as for the rest of your post, plus one. I like to use emotes about fighting stances and movements to be indicative of my character's skill level. Using training weapons in the grasslands, I'll agree, is kind of rediculous. I once, completely by accident, ripped a scrab's ass off with a sparring weapon before realizing, whoops, and embarassingly switched it out for my real blade, looking around sheepishly in the hopes no one noticed.

EDIT: When Amos gets jealous of the fact that people like you and not him, and decides to use the authority vested in him by (advanced) slashing weapons and the increased combat clan status it's given him, you may have to start coming up with a new story rather quickly.

EDIT2: Further, I realize there's likely about ten or twenty players that think I'm vaguebooking them right now. Trust me, you folks aren't unique or special enough to vaguebook specifically.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 12:22:57 PM
Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

DIKU mud base. :)

I would propose a system of skill linkage. For instance, tie piercing gains to backstab gains. A gain in piercing has a chance to link to a gain in backstab because, realistically, if I can stab someone in the front I can also stab them in the back. There are a significant number of skills which would quite realistically link to others.

Yes, I know that would promote everyone being that much more badass that much sooner, but honestly ... how many of us have a goal of becoming mediocre at anything we do? Even something as simple as real life gardening I started with the intention of becoming a BADASS gardener.

Probably the biggest problem with the mastery of skills is in the combat code. Nobody cares if I am a master forager and I can find that dirty root faster than anybody else. But from what limited experience I have with the combat code, a master combat character can easily defeat 4-5 other players simultaneously. You're approaching Skyrim/Assassin's Creed levels of badassery there.

I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

To me, it doesn't matter if you spent 5 RL years of your life in 1997 mapping out the grasslands with some graph papers and some crayons, if I can save a new player from quitting out in frustration because they are totally lost somewhere in the middle of nowhere by handing them a nice map, I would (unfortunately, I'm all out of nice maps since I deleted the last one I had when I quit Arm forever for the #3241429 time long ago).

I also don't care if it took you 10 years to realize that steal branches from sneak on a burglar, or whatever. If I can save a new player from quitting out in frustration because they have made really bad character creation choices, I'll gladly hand them a skill sheet or whatever.

I think that a 15 year veteran should always start on the same footing as a total n00b, or at the very least very close in equality, and vice versa.

Many of our best players and roleplayers all have these skills sheet or maps or whathaveyou and it doesn't stop them or prevent them from playing great roles and great characters - I don't understand the mentality of wanting to remain in the dark ages of 1995 or whatever for many here, but that's always been a debate around here as well.

If you are a new player and you don't want game "secrets" handed out to you then you can make a choice of not looking at them. If you are a 15 year old veteran and feel like those game mechanics and secrets should remain something that everyone need to struggle like you did forever ago then I can only and firmly disagree with that thought. We have the same amount of shitty players and great players as we did 5, 10 or 15 years ago, except we now have a lot more shittier and great players to play with than we did - Having to struggle through a mire of badly mapped areas and old game mechanics that should have been updated eons ago do not make you the great player that you might think you are - 1 day n00bs should have the same chance of achieving your greatness right from the getgo - That's how we'll get new players AND keep them.

That's my opinion at least.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:44:23 PM
I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

Backstabbing during sparring has been explicitly prohibited for a long time.

They even modified the training daggers from stabbing to piercing specifically so people couldn't do it.

Soooo...yeah...it's highly doubtful that they're going to code a new command just do enable us to do what they already spent time on preventing us from doing.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:44:23 PM
I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

Kidney punch. Wait, that's almost as bad, erm, I don't have a fix, really. Rubber daggers?

Eh, if swole jock can use his advanced slashing and combat clan to kill your PC, your PC lost, that's all. Skills are a very effective way of getting stuff done, but so is having allies.

If you're playing a racial or social minority in that situation, well, you're gonna have a hard time.

Well, that's what I'm talking about, Synthesis. This command would exist BECAUSE backstabbing in sparring is not kosher, and that is one of the main reasons that skilling up backstab is so ridiculous and hard to justify. I think the reason backstabbing in sparring was banned was because backstab represents an explicit desire to kill and is extremely dangerous to use on a friendly sparring partner. This command would not represent a desire to kill, so it would be different. Sure, it's probably never going to happen, but that's my suggestion.

Quote from: Beethoven on February 04, 2016, 12:51:36 PM
Well, that's what I'm talking about, Synthesis. This command would exist BECAUSE backstabbing in sparring is not kosher. I think the reason backstabbing in sparring was banned was because backstab represents an explicit desire to kill and is extremely dangerous to use on a friendly sparring partner. This command would not represent a desire to kill, so it would be different. Sure, it's probably never going to happen, but that's my suggestion.

No, it's not that backstabbing "represents a desire to kill."

It was because if you're good at backstabbing, you can instagib someone even with a training dagger.  So yes, it was extremely dangerous, but it's just a shitty-code problem, not a RP-based justification.

I've seen both reasons given by staff, the fact that it doesn't RPly make sense to slide your sparring dagger between the ribs of your sparring buddy, and the fact that it actually is quite possible to kill your so-called "friend" in this way. Those two reasons are obviously connected, and both of them would be addressed by having a practice strike implemented. Yes, it's a pipe dream, but it's my pipe dream and I'm sticking with it.

Quote from: Delirium on February 04, 2016, 12:51:07 PM
Eh, if swole jock can use his advanced slashing and combat clan to kill your PC, your PC lost, that's all. Skills are a very effective way of getting stuff done, but so is having allies.

If you're playing a racial or social minority in that situation, well, you're gonna have a hard time.

Codedly, you may stand a better chance of getting away to exact vengence after some significant combat and/or stealth-skill twinking, particularly if a miscalculation was made by your new-found enemy. My personal playstyle, these are secondary, but I won't roll up a character, or have them facing potential dangers, that doesn't work on these skills as often as they can when nothing else is going on.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 12:22:57 PM
Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

I maxed back stab in 15 days just by backstabbing kryl on patrol. The hard part was getting the backstab in before the buff warriors and rangers killed them. I actually setup a series of alias's to dismount, backstab and then remount. It wasn't long after master that I was able to frequently perform one hit kills

Parry took 40 days played on the same character. This character sparred daily.

Weirdly it also took 40 days played to master hide. I had actually thought it was maxed earlier.

I ignored sap and bludgeoning throughout the character.

I think the bigger problem is that players frequently assume that aide types can become uber assassins inside the city walls. To do this, they likely require some sort of rp-based skill-bump from staff. IMHO the best way to play an assassin is to join a military clan that patrols.

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 12:46:01 PM1 day n00bs should have the same chance of achieving your greatness right from the getgo - That's how we'll get new players AND keep them.

That's my opinion at least.

It's a valid opinion, and as a new player I'll validate it to a certain extent.

When I started, I brought 4 other players from my previous mud over with me. All four quit after their first week. One quit because he got ganked by someone 3 rooms outside of the west gate of Nak when he had only barely found the gate in the first place. The others quit for reasons such as not liking permadeath or because they didn't feel like they were going to be able to learn enough about the game world. So now it's just me here.

However, I *DO* feel like I have as good a chance at greatness as anyone. I just am not handed it with my first (or twentieth) character. There is no "BADASS" subguild which makes you immediately into the hero of the story. You start out (at best) as a redshirt or stormtrooper #793. Oh, who am I kidding? You're starting as the guy whose job it is to clean the latrine after the redshirts and stormtroopers use it. The game requires a lot of metagame knowledge to succeed and every character builds upon the 10/20/40/80 characters who went before. I can scatter five bodies in the wilderness between reboots and each time the mantis head comes up, I learned something new about the game. (Such as don't screw around with mekillots).

I've never, ever played a multiplayer game which didn't give an advantage to players who knew how the system worked or had played it before. We're not going to change that here. Since an RP enforced mud is primarily about storytelling, a lot of people are going to want to Mary Sue their character since the RNG simply will not respect your wishes to be the ultimate badass you always wanted to be.

Skinner's Box analogy does not relate to this discussion in your current form, because your assertion is that the only food available to be rewarded with is an upper-tier skill level.  Instead, view it as more of a maze, that has minor shifts but a general path to follow, where divergences from it often result in the same result but a new and interesting path.

What I mean is this:  I also enjoy badassity.  However, the difference is that I enjoy my character becoming a badass.  As Synthesis said, I create my character with my end-goal in mind.  I do not enjoy tressy-tress.  I do not enjoy merchants (whether in guild or role).  I enjoy being strong, either through manipulation, combat, or influence.  I create my characters with this in mind.  My hunters hunt.  My criminals crime.  They do what they are supposed to be good at, and as a result, generally get good at it.  This is in keeping with how characters progress.  They do what they do, they live their life, and over time, they start to excel in those things they should probably excel in, because that's what they -do- for their living and for their station, etc.

The difference is when you take an OOC objective and implant it into IC behavior.  I.e. I want this guy to be a badass, so I'm going to engage in this ritual.  Hunters should hunt.  Should assassins just go around killing a bunch of people?  Herein lies the difference in opinion.  I say you can, but you should be held accountable; You are going around killing people.  My assassins certainly don't, because it is not in their interest to be widely -known- for such.  Some characters will have have a different interest than that.  Mine tend to look for every advantage they can put to use in order to find success.  My assassins get good at combat through realistic combat, not forced combat, and as a result, are usually far less skilled than others.  By your version of the Skinner's Box analogy, that should not be rewarding to me, because the food is high skills.  That is untrue;  My food is the long journey and scenery and circumstance that occurs to get him there, and when he reaches it, it makes me fist pump in joy because the story has worked out in favor of my hero (or villain).

This is what I mean.  The code does not force you to implant behavior into the game; that is the player decision to force certain scenarios for an OOC goal they have in mind, where it starts to sway the IC story and narrative.  It may seem minor, but it is, in the end, what I say has led to this rise.  There is a difference between the character who says "I want to be good at combat.  I should kill lots of people." because the player is viewing NPC's as their source of training, and the character who says "I need to be good at combat to continue my work, I should seek training in some way."  The latter ends up immersing in a lot different waters, and yes, sometimes is unable to find their source of training.  But it maintains the integrity of the hardcore RPG vs the MMORPG.

To use Synthesis's phrase...no one wants to be a useless character?  The in-character drive to not be useless, with real IC consideration on the part of the character, and manipulation of situations and actually striving through real means contributes to the game.  The 'fuck it, i'ma farm for 30 minutes and ignore the game then carry' (dota reference) method results in skill gains at the expense of that integrity, even if on a minor degree.  That is an out of character drive being drawn in, and on that front is where information gets misused and becomes detrimental.  Which is where shitty guides that tell you to fight everyone but not kill them so that you don't get caught come from.

QuoteMany of our best players and roleplayers all have these skills sheet or maps or whathaveyou and it doesn't stop them or prevent them from playing great roles and great characters - I don't understand the mentality of wanting to remain in the dark ages of 1995 or whatever for many here, but that's always been a debate around here as well.

I think you're misrepresenting the argument.  It isn't 'information is bad', it's 'It's become more acceptable to misuse it.'

As you've said, many good roleplayers have had access to it for a long time.  The difference is in how they used it.  Staff has never come down on me for knowing what skill branches from what.  Or where things are.  It's when that knowledge starts being used inappropriately, and thus affecting IC happenings with the OOC desire for that pursuit, that you start seeing detriments to the game over it.

Martial artists are able to practice lethal techniques all the time without killing each other. I'd be fine with allowing a fake backstab skill ig for sparring situations. At the cost of making the skill take longer to train.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I think you're misrepresenting the argument.  It isn't 'information is bad', it's 'It's become more acceptable to misuse it.'

As you've said, many good roleplayers have had access to it for a long time.  The difference is in how they used it.  Staff has never come down on me for knowing what skill branches from what.  Or where things are.  It's when that knowledge starts being used inappropriately, and thus affecting IC happenings with the OOC desire for that pursuit, that you start seeing detriments to the game over it.

Fair enough, I haven't played nearly enough in the last year or so to notice if it has become worst than any of the ~15 years I've played in the past.

I don't think "ignoring the game to farm" is really an issue.  Fine, you have to hunt to skill up, maybe...but there are plenty of PCs looking for the giblets from all the critters you're splattering along the way.  That affords plenty of opportunities for interaction.

It ain't "templars going to the party" type interaction, but every fancy-ass merchant motherfucker out there started off buying scrab legs from some indie PC trying to branch throw.

I can see through continued debate that I'm agreeing with those I was debating, more or less. I do engage in semi-twinky behavior, if my character is poor and hungry, they're not above rolling that NPC for their loot or leaping from the rooftops with a string of drool and daggers drawn down onto that poor rat for a hope at a slice of meat, or chasing that damn lizard down and hopefully not getting wtfpwned in the process. If they're not, then they may be motivated to do so out of compassion for others who may not have as much as them that they've grown closer to. There comes a point at which coin and skillgains, however, begin to get in the way of reasonable RP, which, if I just wanted to solely powergame, I could easily find another mud or game that would cater to those needs more effectively. I've never really wanted to be as uber badass as I possibly could be with a character, because once you hit competence and gains level out, time spent vs. risk vs. reward makes less and less sense, because, as Delirium hinted, all those coded skills are less and less effective against social contacts and the like, which raises their priority, if your character values survival, which, they should.

It was a poor analogy, I admit.  It was just the first one to pop into my head.

I meant basically putting the desire to reach the 'carry state', i.e. being able to whomp everyone else's ass (whether PC or NPC) as priority above the interaction with the game itself.  I am a code-oriented player.  I love when I hit the badass state.  But it is indeed subject to circumstances of the game and other player's actions, where if I put that on a backburner to just insure I failed my skills regularly I'd hit that state a lot faster...but with a lot less content and development in the process.

I'm just saying the former, the using the metagame to insure progression is fast and steady, contributes far less at the least, and is a detriment at the greatest, while the latter, the keeping yourself available for IC opportunities to progress, takes longer but ends up in an all around better state of the game for everyone involved.

I never get 'fist pumping joy' at being a badass and achieving badass-like things unless there's a degree of good fortune to it.  Playing the game like a skill-gain robot doesn't reward nearly as much.

While this leads inevitably to the 'to each their own' argument, that is precisely what I'm saying.  The reaction to it has shifted.  There is a rise in acceptability/perceived need of the metagame.  Neither am I some paragon of roleplay.  I have grey areas when it comes to discussions of code and code use with staff and other players.  But I also do have very clearly defined lines as far as what is roleplay and what is trying to reach level 60 so I can play end-game content.

Skinner's box is a perfect analogy. Like delirium said, if the twink kills you, you lose. The only way to stop that from happening, is to press the button in the Skinner box. I don't see how that so hard to understand. It's like that for every single game out there with even the slightest player versus player environment.

Quote from: Asanadas on February 04, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
Skinner's box is a perfect analogy. Like delirium said, if the twink kills you, you lose. The only way to stop that from happening, is to press the button in the Skinner box. I don't see how that so hard to understand. It's like that for every single game out there with even the slightest player versus player environment.

By that logic being killed for twinking behavior would cease the behavior.  Instead of raising tirades with imagined notions of skill-suppression and insistent notions that the game is no longer about roleplay because you can't skillmax freely by committing murder sprees in communities without reprise.

Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 04, 2016, 01:22:15 PM
Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

Yeah, don't worry. I am mostly talking about people who go and do things their PC would "never do" and then try to play like it didn't happen because they did it 100% for OOC reasons.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:24:30 PM
You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

The reason why it's been that way (I think) is because training in clans is almost 100% risk-free, while training out in the wilderness is not.

classic case of risk vs reward.

Is that actually a problem? I couldn't say, I can see arguments for both sides. I haven't really made up my mind.

I do think that supplementary (non combat) skills should be easier to train in clans. Obstacle courses, etc. But this is verging pretty off topic.

I find, though, that while it's true that nobody gives a flying fuck if I do things right, I generally have more fun. When I get so bored with my PC that focusing on skilling up is the only thing I can think of doing and emotes and thinks and feels become perfunctory afterthoughts, that's when I start to drift towards storage.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:24:30 PM


The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.
[/quote

I don't see that as a problem. Wherever there's rabbits, there's bears and wolves that you risk running into. What do you risk when you accrue dozens of hours sparring in a circle?

Risk should always equal reward.

My personal enjoyment in these games is always being the wilderness survivor who not only dwells but thrives in places that most people fear to tread. I don't even have to be a badass to do it. I don't know that any one individual is ever going to be so much of a badass that they can take down a bahamet solo with no risk (maybe some can, but I don't know). I enjoy finding those "safer spots" in the wilderness and setting up a basecamp there. I love those hidden quit/save rooms scattered throughout the world where I can feel like I have a home in the wild.

If someone shows up, I roleplay with them. Usually, however, they show up while I'm logged off and steal not only the melons out of my food chest but also steal the chest itself. :)

There's a handful of characters that I've seen since my first week of playing and I wonder how in the heck they're so long-lived. But then again I only ever see them when I go to town and visit the tavern. Maybe that's the secret. The game has plenty of room for them AND for me living out in the bushes.

Right, I feel it worth noting, hopeandsorrow, that I'm not addressing those grey areas.  I'm actually not as worried as this whole discussion makes me sound...I was just acknowledging that there is a noticeable shift I've seen.  I -would- prefer some measures be taken, but I'm not quitting the game over this;  There are only a chosen few that I'm actually truly 'Holy shit'ting about with their opinion on how the game should be played.

If your character wants to hunt scrab, they should hunt scrab.  I have a hard time seeing a tressy-tressed unarmored maiden Atrium Graduate who lives well and has every need taken care of having a need to hunt scrab.  That becomes weird.  I do not have a hard time believing anyone who makes a living off of combat and meat would need some tremendous motivation beyond 'I'm sitting around not making good use of my time.  I should get some hunting done.'

As Synthesis said, there is actually a lot of this issue being solved for those familiar with the issue at hand with making characters that are based a certain way, so that their mentality fits your desires for the character.  I don't play aides unless they are sekrit assassins.  And I acknowledge beforehand that said sekrit assassin will have to do some serious maneuvering to get any good.

Just as a note:  There was an amazing assassin a few years ago who was fascinating.  He knew he needed to skill up his assassin for what he wanted...so he designed him with a 'type' in mind, like a serial killer.  I was in the position where a PC wanted a job performed, and I started to work at putting them in touch with said assassin before realizing...they were that assassin's type.  It wasn't going to go well.  There are ways to have your desires -add- to the game rather than become this mindless manipulation of code that detracts from it.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 04, 2016, 01:22:15 PM
Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

What you're describing is perfectly a-ok. I don't think staff or players much care if you're running around hitting things. But if that's -all- you do; I wouldn't expect much in the way of karma. Generally, staff will only ever intervene if you're being a major donkey dick. Or they might animate some npc's if you've been hunting on someone's territory.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:24:30 PM
You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

Very true in my experience.  Seems more efficient to worry about proficiency before joining said clan.


Side note:

What is the accepted definition of twinkery here? Something done entirely with out respect to IC for the sake of skill gains?
What about metagaming? Because I think it will foster a better discussion we all had an agreed upon definition.

Right now, I'd consider anyone who rolled Ranger/thief for indoor sneak a metagaming action. Same for assassin/hunter.  I render anyone who purposely sought High agility creatures IC reason or not, a metagamy action.

Using a sling at the moment instead of an actual bow? Kind of meta.

Sneaking about for no other reason then to sneak about and get those fails? Meta.

Sure I don't really enjoy the nature of that, but, well I'm going to use a sling till I have a good supply of arrows/bolts.  I like ranger/thief because I feel more useful in the city as well as outdoors.  Cornering a Jozhal is a wonderful find and I might just emote throwing my weapons at it in frustration so I can draw another!

But I'm feeling that, folks don't think that's as meta as I think it is.

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 01:33:44 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:24:30 PM


The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

I don't see that as a problem. Wherever there's rabbits, there's bears and wolves that you risk running into. What do you risk when you accrue dozens of hours sparring in a circle?

Risk should always equal reward.

My personal enjoyment in these games is always being the wilderness survivor who not only dwells but thrives in places that most people fear to tread. I don't even have to be a badass to do it. I don't know that any one individual is ever going to be so much of a badass that they can take down a bahamet solo with no risk (maybe some can, but I don't know). I enjoy finding those "safer spots" in the wilderness and setting up a basecamp there. I love those hidden quit/save rooms scattered throughout the world where I can feel like I have a home in the wild.

If someone shows up, I roleplay with them. Usually, however, they show up while I'm logged off and steal not only the melons out of my food chest but also steal the chest itself. :)

There's a handful of characters that I've seen since my first week of playing and I wonder how in the heck they're so long-lived. But then again I only ever see them when I go to town and visit the tavern. Maybe that's the secret. The game has plenty of room for them AND for me living out in the bushes.

No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

Small side note. The people who sneak around everywhere in the city with no IC reason should be shot.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 04, 2016, 01:41:26 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:24:30 PM
You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

Very true in my experience.  Seems more efficient to worry about proficiency before joining said clan.

Also known as the X-D method. Which I find generally to be pretty lame.

I just assume all PCs are played by be metagaming play-to-win spamcrafting twinked-up code-savvy Vets who have higher days played and rolled higher stats than me.

And then I play in ways that minimize the risk of having to interact with such players. Namely, I don't go in big for competition, but try to secure allies and code advantages should I be forced into PVP. Since I only really play Zalanthan everymen whose only real goal is to survive for as long as possible while being true to the character, it tends to work out.

My feelings on the metagame are shaped by a desire for fairness and a desire for efficiency.

I'm not bothered by people wanting to know Armageddon code anymore than I'm bothered about players of a tabletop RPG wanting to read the rulebooks. Would any of us want to play a TTRPG where we're each player is given a vague and sometimes contradictory set of rules? Personally I prefer everyone have access to a common level of truth, which is why I support things like explicit skill lists being made available.

There are different levels of knowledge - Dungeon Master rules or Monster Manuals in tabletop, cf. Magick Code and deeper Arm lore - that could give a player an edge if they OOCly know it. You can discourage them from learning it, but you can't really stop them. Players who are in Armageddon for the roleplay, which is to say the vast majority of us, will choose to avoid that knowledge. If a player decides they A) need that knowledge and B) they begin to use that knowledge to gain an unfair advantage over other players, either they'll be smart enough to hide it behind roleplay and make it fun for everyone, or be such a blatant asshat that staff will catch them and take appropriate actions.

I think efficiency is really why we may be seeing "the Rise of the Metagame." The Armageddon playerbase is aging, and many (most?) of us don't have the same level of time to devote to getting Amos out of the scrub stage to moderately competent to salty badass. We have character concepts in mind, and we want to have the code knowledge to allow us to begin actually playing that concept as quickly as possible. This plays back in to fairness in that it's galling to know that a sensibly played character who participates in clan life WILL skill up slower than a spam-hunter with a timer, and consequently be at a coded disadvantage.

You don't need to spam-hunt with a timer to get good. In fact the code is set up for the exact opposite.

I could be wrong but honestly, I'm reading a lot of jealousy in the whole "gosh, s/he is good, they must be a horrible twink!" concept that seems so prevalent in this thread.

A bit like the fox with the grapes analogy. Just because you don't got those grapes doesn't mean that other fox cheated. Sheesh.

This is yet another example of the playerbase making a massive mountain out of a pretty small molehill.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:44:26 PM
No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

Why not? :)

Plenty of historical accounts of just that happening.

Ultimately though, in reality as well as in the game, fortune favors the prepared. Someone comfortable in the environment they're in is almost always going to do better.

Isn't there a skill grid though where fighting a gortok works different invisible skills than fighting a humanoid? I think I remember thinking that it's a thing.

It should be pointed out that this thread started out as an anti-twinking thread and in the five pages thus far I've learned a hundred new ways to twink that I would never have thought of. :)

Some of it just seems plain boring though. Killing a sand koala for its pelt and fur will get me to where I want to be just the same as beating on a slippery cliff climber with a wooden stick.

I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 01:54:53 PM
I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

Yep.

I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:58:06 PM
I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 01:54:53 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:44:26 PM
No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

Why not? :)

Plenty of historical accounts of just that happening.

Ultimately though, in reality as well as in the game, fortune favors the prepared. Someone comfortable in the environment they're in is almost always going to do better.

Isn't there a skill grid though where fighting a gortok works different invisible skills than fighting a humanoid? I think I remember thinking that it's a thing.

It should be pointed out that this thread started out as an anti-twinking thread and in the five pages thus far I've learned a hundred new ways to twink that I would never have thought of. :)

Some of it just seems plain boring though. Killing a sand koala for its pelt and fur will get me to where I want to be just the same as beating on a slippery cliff climber with a wooden stick.

I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:58:06 PM
I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

That's kind of the damage of viewing it that way, though.  I enjoy myself from point A to point B to point C as a result of viewing it the way I do; The alternative seems to be that fun is only attainable beyond point B.  And I view that solely as a symptom of mindset.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 02:10:34 PM

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 01:58:06 PM
I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

That's kind of the damage of viewing it that way, though.  I enjoy myself from point A to point B to point C as a result of viewing it the way I do; The alternative seems to be that fun is only attainable beyond point B.  And I view that solely as a symptom of mindset.

That's the secret. You have to find a way to enjoy the journey. And even then I tend to avoid combat roles these days because I know how soul crushing the grind is.

Prioritize strength Jingo.

I prioritize wisdom.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:15:52 PM
I prioritize wisdom.

With high strength, agility, and endurance rolls, you don't really need wisdom.

Also stop playing breeds, ffs.

This has been your Metagame for the day.

It's the eighth karma. She is my muse.

It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 04, 2016, 02:22:05 PM
It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

I so agree.

I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

The problem with your analogy Miradus is that city-trained warriors are not using a radically different skillsets or equipment than your mountain man.

Zalanthas doesn't go big into formation fighting (blame magickers). Civilized warfare is done by small units in melee skirmishes or ranged combat. The mountain man might (rightly should) have the advantage in ambushes, archery, and guerrilla tactics. There's no good logical explanation for why he is also better at man-to-man melee combat than someone who has trained for equivalent time, and had the benefit of instruction and better diet.

Better examples could be found in pre-modern engagements, I think.

QuoteThat's the secret. You have to find a way to enjoy the journey.

Heh.  So it's not always emoted out because I'm alone for a lot of it, but I get a lot of chuckles during the 'point A to point B' portion by picturing the complete ineptitude.  That scrappy battle between me and that one fucker chalton...where codewise, it's straightforward, but it just takes way too long and it's a clumsy guy chasing around this vicious, not-vicious creature.  Or the sudden scrambling-away fear of a scrab charging in, knowing that one day my character kill one of those and feel -incredibly- accomplished since that thing is dangerous.  He'll buy drinks, he'll celebrate.  "I took down a fuckin' scrab today, guys!"

That makes it a whole lot more fun, just visualizing all of that.

QuoteI feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge. Agree/disagree?

Uhm.  I again point out that running theme does not seem to be 'restrict knowledge more'.  There's some alluding to the whole skill-level side, but other than that this discussion appears based on how knowledge is used, not about limiting access to it.  I -did- make a reference to how I think that's why it was subdued in the past, was to prevent this sort of approach to the game becoming prevalent, but in no other point have I seen vets saying 'No, you can't know how that works.'

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

But that's as much the fault of the game than it is the players'.

If you've had the same small amount of "scary" classes with the same amount of small spells and skills for the last 20 years it's not surprising that most will know what you're capable of.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 04, 2016, 02:22:05 PM
It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

I don't like to judge anyone's motives, but in every MUD I've ever played where there's a forum, this same discussion occurs and it's usually for reasons you describe.

The "establishment" does not like having to give up any advantages, even if they are simply perceived advantages.

And while this conversation is fun and fascinating to me, I really do think it's sort of a non-issue. My lack of mastery has not led to diminished enjoyment in the game. I don't lose sleep because some other guy beating up tregils with a wooden stick has a higher number on a skillsheet than I do.

Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

Even if I'm a walking badass who nothing can kill I'm still going to die of old age in about 4-5 RL years. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

I tend to wait until I find out ICly, unless my character's background would somehow give them need to have access to that knowlege. Honestly, I HAVE found out, up close and personal, ICly, with more than one character.

To be quite honest, if they're going to meta-game your magicker powers, they'd probably do it regardless of whether you murdered them and wore their skin like a suit, or one of their AIM buddies told them.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 04, 2016, 02:30:12 PM
The problem with your analogy Miradus is that city-trained warriors are not using a radically different skillsets or equipment than your mountain man.

Zalanthas doesn't go big into formation fighting (blame magickers). Civilized warfare is done by small units in melee skirmishes or ranged combat. The mountain man might (rightly should) have the advantage in ambushes, archery, and guerrilla tactics. There's no good logical explanation for why he is also better at man-to-man melee combat than someone who has trained for equivalent time, and had the benefit of instruction and better diet.

Better examples could be found in pre-modern engagements, I think.

Yeah. I don't disagree. It's a code issue. The "combat grid" concept ought to bear more weight than it probably does, but not having seen the code I really don't know how it's weighted now.

Though in the existing code, if someone can ride better than you and shoot you instantly with death arrows from two rooms away ... your day is going to be bad. (I have no basis for that statement other than theorycrafting. I haven't shot anyone in the game.)

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 02:32:37 PM
Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

I so wish you could :(

At the very least you might get a female Armageddon player finding your AIM because you're totally badass and then you start exchanging stories about your badassessnes and the next thing you know you are both living together, you end up with a child, you ask her to be your wife, she says yes and then you live happily ever after.

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 02:36:47 PM

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

Just be glad in real life that your stats aren't visible to women.

Though technically ... I guess our wisdom is.

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 02:31:15 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

But that's as much the fault of the game than it is the players'.

If you've had the same small amount of "scary" classes with the same amount of small spells and skills for the last 20 years it's not surprising that most will know what you're capable of.

I didn't know all sorts of things. I've played for over 10 years.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:37:23 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 02:24:03 PM

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:10:19 PM
I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

Well, consider this, the guy trained with the sword has been swinging it and stabbing with it in an effort to not kill someone primarily, with the exception of the occassional foolish criminal. Meanwhile, Jeb the mountain man has been hacking his scimitar into deadly beasts on a daily basis with the real threat of death around every bend and much more developed experience with his own fight or flight reaction.

To be fair, the guy who self taught to feed himself in a place like Zalanthas is going to be pretty bad ass.

This ain't beaver trapping, motherfucking giant spiders man, raptors, bahamets, giant centipedes, and all manner of giant ugly bugs.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:37:23 PM
It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

Okay, let me ask this then ...

Has anyone survived dwelling nearly exclusively in the wilderness and fighting mobiles with 430 days played? Has the equivalent accomplishment been managed by a city-fighter who mastered his combat skills in the sparring circle?

Even if I managed to be badass enough to survive every mekillot, bahamet, and venomous crotch-biter and never fail a flee or ride check ... I don't think that I could go 10,320 hours in-game without my link crapping out on me and coming back to a dead character.

So yeah ... if you can survive 10 years in the wilderness as Jim Bridger then I think you deserve the big round of applause for that accomplishment. At least a gold star in your account notes.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 02:41:51 PM
Well, consider this, the guy trained with the sword has been swinging it and stabbing with it in an effort to not kill someone primarily, with the exception of the occassional foolish criminal. Meanwhile, Jeb the mountain man has been hacking his scimitar into deadly beasts on a daily basis with the real threat of death around every bend and much more developed experience with his own fight or flight reaction.

The City armies (or at least their PC components) spend most of their time fighting giant monsters too.

Even though I think the analogy is flawed, I'm going to go back to the American revolution example because it amuses me. The Colonials may have had better aim and wilderness tactics, but they would still get schooled whenever the Redcoats or the Hessians closed in with the bayonet. If we were going to redo the war with Armageddon logic, the British would have had their asses kicked in melee because the Colonials could draw on their years of swinging sticks at racoons.

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 04, 2016, 02:42:46 PM
To be fair, the guy who self taught to feed himself in a place like Zalanthas is going to be pretty bad ass.

This ain't beaver trapping, motherfucking giant spiders man, raptors, bahamets, giant centipedes, and all manner of giant ugly bugs.

I remember mapping this one area. About 150 rooms and apparently only ONE hostile mob. Of course it was a really nasty one, but the odds were still in my favor.

Of course it walked in and insta-attacked me (which happens only about once in every twenty times a hostile mob walks in) and then I failed a flee and my advanced ride skill failed its check and I fell off my mount. Right in front of the giant, armored people-eater. Welcome to the mantis head.

So I do not mind someone skilling up on Zalanthan rabbits because there's some seriously dangerous shit out there where those rabbits live. Life is not easy outside the walls and you either become badass at combat or running away ... but there are no long-lived, non-badasses outside of the walls.

Um.  So, about the derail: you do know that nessalin pointed out that you have hidden combat skills vs. different kinds of things out there (humanoid, snakes, etc.).  So, in terms of code mechanics, the guy who spends his afternoons with a bushy beard wailing on tregils will be pretty good at killing tregils and the guy who spends his afternoons clean shaven wailing on humans will be pretty good at killing humans.  Which, like, makes sense.

Re the topic: improving the help files so that the coded reality of the game is represented accurately to players is important.  There's nothing worse than breaking immersion to figure out how the 'sap' command works.  The more we can make the code fit seamlessly into the background, the better.  It helps eliminate 'meta talk'; it helps prevent breaking immersion; it helps us tailor our character concepts better; it helps us interact more and role play more.

I'll point everyone to the improving the help files thread here under Player Collaboration!

Zalanthas is big enough that it can fit enough play styles.  If someone doesn't like player interaction, they have something to keep them entertained.  If someone does, they have something to keep them entertained.

Also, yeah.  There are more elves in the bar than PC elves.

I know it's there. It's a very minor factor as far as I can tell. Your weapon skills and offense/defense scores are also improved by basic huntering. Typically at a much faster rate.

Quote from: Jingo on February 04, 2016, 02:53:29 PM
I know it's there. It's a very minor factor as far as I can tell. Your weapon skills and offense/defense scores are also improved by basic huntering. Typically at a much faster rate.

It also wasn't turned on till a week ago, IIRC the post correctly.

Just a couple of the combinations weren't turned on.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 04, 2016, 02:55:34 PM
It also wasn't turned on till a week ago, IIRC the post correctly.

So ... progress. :)

I wish we could see those numbers somewhere. I am a skillsheet person.

I have a script on my client which keeps track of a lot of goofy things. How many melons I've plucked. How many trees I've cut down. How many times I've fled from combat or how many times I've sent an opponent reeling (currently at 2).

I just love statistics. I'm weird that way (and some other ways too).

Ah, alright.

It'll be interesting to see what effect it has but I don't think it's going to be a game changer or make things more "balanced." Me, I prefer just to avoid PVP unless I can secure overwhelming advantage over the target. And even then they might surprise me. I think that's the Zalanthan way to look at conflict and PVP and metagame, and not get bogged down worrying about skill failures. Assume the target is dangerous (probably because of unfair means, but Zalanthas is unfair) and take as many mitigating steps as you can.

Don't feel much different about PVE either, actually. If you don't think you have an advantage over something for god's sake don't go poking it in the face.

Though I really really like it when something in my skill list ticks up. Just do.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 04, 2016, 03:03:18 PM
Don't feel much different about PVE either, actually. If you don't think you have an advantage over something for god's sake don't go poking it in the face.

CrIKEy! He's REALLY mad now!

For what it's worth, I haven't played a combat role since 2012. And an outdoor hunting role since 2008. I can't be sure if anything has been rejiggered since then.

It did seem that my Legionaire Assassin was frequently outclassed even late in life by newish hunters that would go out and fight things in their free time.

Were they interesting to talk to and RP with? I can forgive a lot if the PC's at least good company.

Quote from: nauta on February 04, 2016, 02:51:37 PM
Um.  So, about the derail: you do know that nessalin pointed out that you have hidden combat skills vs. different kinds of things out there (humanoid, snakes, etc.).  So, in terms of code mechanics, the guy who spends his afternoons with a bushy beard wailing on tregils will be pretty good at killing tregils and the guy who spends his afternoons clean shaven wailing on humans will be pretty good at killing humans.  Which, like, makes sense.

Re the topic: improving the help files so that the coded reality of the game is represented accurately to players is important.  There's nothing worse than breaking immersion to figure out how the 'sap' command works.  The more we can make the code fit seamlessly into the background, the better.  It helps eliminate 'meta talk'; it helps prevent breaking immersion; it helps us tailor our character concepts better; it helps us interact more and role play more.

I'll point everyone to the improving the help files thread here under Player Collaboration!

Zalanthas is big enough that it can fit enough play styles.  If someone doesn't like player interaction, they have something to keep them entertained.  If someone does, they have something to keep them entertained.

Also, yeah.  There are more elves in the bar than PC elves.

PC what now..?

PC elves. You can recognize when one has just walked into the tavern because suddenly everyone will start closing their sacks, cloaks, pouches, and packs.

Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

Should pick a clan with scan sometime.  :P

EDIT: Oh no! My thingymabob is missing! THAT ELF must have done it! *arena sequence unfolds* *a week or two later, with a chuckle, at the bar* Funny thing, Amos, I, got home later and, had left it in my other pants.

I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

I saw one being dragged by some half-giants in Nak. Apparently there's a special place where they keep them and this one had got loose.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 03:21:41 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

Should pick a clan with scan sometime.  :P

bruh

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 03:22:51 PM
I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

Yeah, it's really not that bad at all. The combat skills may be harder. I've never seen any of those improve but my other survival utility skills go up steadily as I use them as part of the "don't starve" process.

The game is really well-geared towards someone like me who logs on for 30 minutes, plays a bit, then logs off for an hour or two to go do some work.

Quote from: Malken on February 04, 2016, 02:36:47 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 02:32:37 PM
Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

I so wish you could :(

At the very least you might get a female Armageddon player finding your AIM because you're totally badass and then you start exchanging stories about your badassessnes and the next thing you know you are both living together, you end up with a child, you ask her to be your wife, she says yes and then you live happily ever after.

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

This is why I date non Arm women. If that child comes about, I'll never max backstab again.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 03:22:51 PM
I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

That's what I tend to do as well. I mean, I might not have gotten a skill-gain with that single fail, but I just can't be arsed to go digging for more. I might if I'm antsy and needing to hit that branchpoint because shit's getting heavy, but aside from that, I'd, like you, rather be getting sid for the rent, or goofing off. Isn't that how you twink? I look back at when I first started, and you can practically hear the veterans mumbling under their breath, fucking tryhard newb. Hey, I came from hack and slash, PvP, no roleplay enforced, I think I'm doing well considering I never even tried this shit before Arm.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 03:22:51 PM
I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

It's true that it doesn't seem that bad when you put it that way, but I guess the repetitiveness of it gets you after a while (mind you, that's not a problem in only Armageddon, of course) - extended subguilds definitely help a lot, too, and I think that it's been so long since I've played that I'm probably back to having my 3 spec apps allocation once more, whee!

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is. :)

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 03:50:23 PM
I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is. :)

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first. :)

I've red-shirted a spec app before.

It was glorious moment.  :D

Though, don't burn through them too fast it's way to easy to change your mind or wish you would of tried X instead repeating Y twice.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 03:51:16 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 03:50:23 PM
I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is. :)

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first. :)

What's a YASD?

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 03:51:16 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 03:50:23 PM
I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is. :)

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first. :)

What's a YASD?

Term from players of the Roguelike game Nethack. Stands for Yet Another Stupid Death. (usually avoidable, but everyone screws them all up at least once, if they don't go straight for the spoilers.)

Ah. Thanks.

I'm a Dwarf Fortress guy, not a Nethack guy. :)

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 05:09:05 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 04, 2016, 03:51:16 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 04, 2016, 03:50:23 PM
I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is. :)

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first. :)

What's a YASD?

Term from players of the Roguelike game Nethack. Stands for Yet Another Stupid Death. (usually avoidable, but everyone screws them all up at least once, if they don't go straight for the spoilers.)

eat the cabbage of starvation, you stupid dungeon crawler. eat it!

put on the amulet of strangulation you dimwitted lettuce-brained buffoon!

that is nethack for me.

I believe anyone chewing on this topic should also expand their thinking to consider it a genre problem, as in MUDs, and not just an Armageddon problem.  I've played many, some not rp required, others so, and even some RPIs.  Meta gaming/cheating for character gain happened in them all.  Be it through in game progression means or out of character social cliques.  

And perhaps some factors that may contribute to this behavior.  Namely I would suggest there is a correlation between age and enjoyed gaming behaviors and meta gaming behavior.  Probably there are psychological factors as well, but that is mostly speculative and a bit of a rabbit hole.

And as the subtext presented by others, some times meta gamer types can integrate into RP flawlessly, and other times they stick out like a sore thumb.  I would also suggest, without any proof, that an RPI setting encourages meta gaming behavior (people want to lose far less in a zero sum game) as does the skills format / progression system ARM has been using in the last many years (though pointed out in this very thread to be changing/looked at).  

Also, the use of karma to alleviate some of the initial drudgery by raising skills beyond traditional starting values I can only imagine has had a positive impact on the impetus to 'grind.'  Since this approach also lets one transition from 'another Amos' to 'someone of distinction' but with less of a mountain to climb in order to do so, I hope staff continues to push out methods to polish this some times rough and undesirable portion of the game's experience.

I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

Quote from: Inks on February 04, 2016, 06:15:30 PM
I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

I more or less agree here:  there is a wide line between filling your role and playing your character (a soldier who trains or a hunter who hunts) and explicit meta gaming.

Sure, we have the Listening Ledge. We have people who will open pouch;get coins pouch;close pouch like a boss, and on occasion I generally assume that if there is a method for someone to gain the upperhand, even through twinkery, they will try.


But in all honesty? Sure we're talking about it more, but I think the RP in game has gone way up. The quality of PCs, the things going on (few and far between though they may be). Its not Golden Age or anything, but I think we're at a decent point. If we can be somewhat open about the code, keeping a soft line on a lot of the mechanics, and allow people more freedom to roleplay their character, so much the better.

I mean. Honestly? I wish MORE people adhered to "Lets just get 1-3 fails and move on with more fun stuff". Imagine the amount of time in game better spent socializing, plotting, playing Tek's Tower, chasing elves. Instead of going out and killing creatures because "at least then I'll have something to show for it".

KNIFE FIGHT!!!!

Quote from: Kryos on February 04, 2016, 06:19:43 PM

Quote from: Inks on February 04, 2016, 06:15:30 PM
I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

I more or less agree here:  there is a wide line between filling your role and playing your character (a soldier who trains or a hunter who hunts) and explicit meta gaming.

I don't even consider that metagaming. To me, ignoring the Game World like that is just bad roleplay.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 01:35:14 PM
There are ways to have your desires -add- to the game rather than become this mindless manipulation of code that detracts from it.

I think there is a lot of merit in this.  And there are ways to mitigate the damage of metagaming if the game actually interests you (and not just "winning" it).  For example, if you feel the need to skillup quickly for some reason, as others have suggested, you can make that part of your character.  Put it in their background that they come from a legacy of skilled warriors.  Give them a spice habit and say it's because of the drugs.  Make them carry around a crystal, and make them be convinced that it gives them special powers.

Why?  Because what this does is take their unexplained mastery/superiority, and turn it into something explained.  You can't RP with plot holes.  But character quirks?  More story for the riffing.


Also, it might bear pointing out that this thread wasn't exactly about people doing metagame-y things.  It was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.  (The fact that the talking part is happening in fairly high concentrations in this thread is just sweet irony.). The question of twinked PCs rendering non-twinked PCs irrelevant is sort of separate.  I'm not sure it's actually happening.  I don't know that I've actually witnessed it, but I've seen things that smell like it, and it makes me concerned, that's all.

QuoteIt was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

I'd say the major problem is the campaign against metagaming encourages metagaming.

If people can't metagame in an easily roleplayed fashion, they're going to do it some other way because they want to better their character.  Kinda dumb to tell them not to.

Roleplaying should make a general style of play easier.  Last time I played, roleplay only made things much harder.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 10:26:06 PM

QuoteIt was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

I agree, or an elf that just spam hides everywhere.

Quote from: Inks on February 05, 2016, 07:17:59 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2016, 10:26:06 PM

QuoteIt was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

I agree, or an elf that just spam hides everywhere.

Hey now, is there any other way to survive as an elf, well, besides leaving THAT city?

I mean, just about EVERYONE can love your sharp-eared ass to death, but the second Lord Fuzzybottoms misplaces his favorite sword, expect some shit.

As a pretty new player, I voted that more information should be more readily avaible about the game mechanics.

No, it shouldn't be used in ways that make the IC world jarring, iv'e seen such things before that just make me face-palm.

The thing is though, this is a game, and IMO, people shouldn't have to become 'veterans' to have a better understanding of how the game works.

It creates an unfair advantage. thats simply what i think.

I've no real comments about metagaming, as I think the  proper word for how metagaming is mentioned in this topic is more meta-playing, or playing the game mechanics to max effect, AKA powergaming.

Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

Veterans may have an advantage, but the upside is that it doesn't take long to discover this world if you get out there and do it.

I'm in the sweet spot right now. I've mapped over 4500 rooms but I'm still discovering new things. I will be sad the day I've mapped the last room.

Quote from: Miradus on February 05, 2016, 03:48:35 PM
Veterans may have an advantage, but the upside is that it doesn't take long to discover this world if you get out there and do it.

I'm in the sweet spot right now. I've mapped over 4500 rooms but I'm still discovering new things. I will be sad the day I've mapped the last room.

I still discover new things fairly regularly.

There are several parts of the world I know exist that I have never gone to. I could if I wanted to, but I intentionally don't because I want to have an IC reason take me there one day and then I can learn the area in the game.

I have never explored the silt sea. I've never even been on a skimmer. Ever. I do not intend to until IC events take me there.

I've never explored super far west or east either. No reason to in my entire Arm career.

There are a lot of things I don't know about this game and I find myself lucky in this regard.

This includes coded aspects of the game I have no idea about.

I prefer to keep it that way.

Every time you figure something new out, you lose a little bit of the magic.

At first you want to know everything. After a couple of decades though you will wish you could go back to knowing nothing.

You miss the knowing nothing because back when you knew nothing anything was possible in your mind.

Those were the good times.

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrhn1pBmfd1qk8e6w.gif)

Quote from: Desertman on February 05, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

Bit Hyperbolic I think.

No one's asking about handing out participation trophies but it be nice to know for example, that Dual wield branches parry traditionally on a Ranger instead of wasting months of play time doing two hand only to find out you have to send a request.

That info wasn't readily available before, it is now.

How many newbies mistakenly bought a crossbow in Chargen shops just to find out Bolts/arrows are expensive, and it will be at least a few days played before it's even worth while to bother investing in archery.   No big sign (Get a sling nub). 

Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 05, 2016, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: Desertman on February 05, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

Bit Hyperbolic I think.

No one's asking about handing out participation trophies but it be nice to know for example, that Dual wield branches parry traditionally on a Ranger instead of wasting months of play time doing two hand only to find out you have to send a request.

That info wasn't readily available before, it is now.

How many newbies mistakenly bought a crossbow in Chargen shops just to find out Bolts/arrows are expensive, and it will be at least a few days players before it's even worth while to bother investing in archery.  

The participation trophy comment was intended to be taken as a metaphor.

I do not mean I think staff mails out small metal trophies to new players to their home addresses. I'm aware they do not.

The game shouldn't be made easier for new players. It's already many times easier for new players than when I started.

If buying a crossbow in the game and finding out bolts are expensive is enough to make them quit the game I call that the process of elimination and proper natural selection. If something that small makes them leave, then I say we just culled the herd for the better.

Well  I agree if some one rage quiet over crossbow bolts would make good, cause that person is silly.

Mainly a matter of convenience in this foul year of our lord twenty sixteen.   Having a firm idea of how to approach the game, how to approach the code might facilitate some one to be more drawn on the RP aspects. Instead of doing what I did at first, Redshirting my way to knowledge, testing the knowledge that's now publicly available.

Even then I'm pretty unsure about what certain things do, but I feel it is sufficient enough to achieve a small part of my Armageddon Mud Bucket List.

I would like to complain that bolts ARE too expensive. :)

This tregil just cost me approximately 148 sid to bring down.

Wouldn't be so bad if so many bolts weren't destroyed in the shooting. I hope the rate of ammo consumption declines with skill increases.

My biggest complaint about the game right now is just a problem of game/player mechanics. I can come up with a character concept in about 5 minutes. However to get into the roleplay of that character's speech patterns and style takes me about a week. Just about the time when something unfortunate happens.

I really haven't ran into many of the problems described on the forum. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even posting on the same game that I'm playing.

Desertman makes the point that describes exactly how I feel. There's a steep learning curve - or there used to be. It existed to keep the people who just wanted the end-game out, and people who wanted the journey in. Sadly, lots of the "answers" are available readily to just anyone, even if they've never played yet. They don't have to even *try* to find out IC. Some won't bother trying, because they don't give a shit about the journey. They just want the end game and will treat Arm as nothing more than a hack-n-slash with roleplaying encouraged.

Quote from: Miradus on February 05, 2016, 04:23:29 PM
I would like to complain that bolts ARE too expensive. :)

This tregil just cost me approximately 148 sid to bring down.

Wouldn't be so bad if so many bolts weren't destroyed in the shooting. I hope the rate of ammo consumption declines with skill increases.

There are better avenues in the game for hunting tregils and small game.

I highly recommend rolling up a character who wants to be a hunter and then finding another hunter in game to teach you how to hunt.

A) It is the best way to find out how to do things.
B) People like teaching other people.
C) It is infinitely more rewarding and fun for all parties involves than finding out on the GDB.

:)

Old players just scared cause old doesn't mean as much anymore.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 05, 2016, 04:47:55 PM
Old players just scared cause old doesn't mean as much anymore.

+1

Quote from: Desertman on February 05, 2016, 04:34:22 PM

B) People like teaching other people.

LOL so not my experience.

There are some things that don't make a lick of sense to find out IC. Other things, the only way to find out IC is to grind repeatedly over and over again. I've never really found that to be rewarding. I'm all for most code knowledge being easily accessible.

Some things I prefer to be mystery though. For instance, the new spell-lists for sorcerers. The thing is I can still keep whatever mystery I want to keep. I get to pick and choose because I have access. That's a good thing, imo.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2016, 04:57:40 PM
There are some things that don't make a lick of sense to find out IC. Other things, the only way to find out IC is to grind repeatedly over and over again. I've never really found that to be rewarding. I'm all for most code knowledge being easily accessible.

Some things I prefer to be mystery though. For instance, the new spell-lists for sorcerers. The thing is I can still keep whatever mystery I want to keep. I get to pick and choose because I have access. That's a good thing, imo.

Agreed.

You can teach someone how to make and use a spear in-character. I don't think anyone would for a moment consider telling them "If you're a ranger, you need to appeal to the spirits to be able to parry with this weapon, but only once you've mastered using it with both hands."

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 04:27:52 PM
lerning curve gud

Who would you rather try out Armageddon: a roleplayer who finds the code insufficiently documented to a point that it's impacting their ability and desire to play ; or someone who can quickly pick-up how the code works and may even be able to play it extremely well, but doesn't roleplay worth a damn?

I'm not convinced by this "Code Learning Curve is Good" argument. Good Roleplaying != Good Code Playing. I believe you're more likely to lose roleplayers who become disenchanted and frustrated with the code, and their inability to play the characters that they want to play, than you are code players who become disenchanted and frustrated with all these people roleplaying at them.

Whenever I want to know something about (for example) the hunter class, I do a search on the forum for hunter and then sort through the bitching and carping for the nuggets of real info. :)

I have conversed a little with other players in game and received some in-game info, but not a lot. My tendency towards exploration has not led me to a lot of relationships with other characters. I know other players are out where I roam around because I see the crap they leave on the ground but I haven't actually ran into any of them. (Which may be a good thing.)

Quote from: Miradus on February 05, 2016, 05:17:58 PM
Whenever I want to know something about (for example) the hunter class, I do a search on the forum for hunter and then sort through the bitching and carping for the nuggets of real info. :)

I have conversed a little with other players in game and received some in-game info, but not a lot. My tendency towards exploration has not led me to a lot of relationships with other characters. I know other players are out where I roam around because I see the crap they leave on the ground but I haven't actually ran into any of them. (Which may be a good thing.)

Yea, so many bits of animals left everywhere... so many bits... some even useful bits.  Sell-able bits.  Good bits.

Also when the Scrab picks up the pile of his cousin's intestines and tries to come at you with it.  A bit me of smiles brighter every time.

Heh. If it's not bits of animals strewn about, it's hidden caches of stuff. Those I like to find!

There used to be this game chart which showed where you fell on a scale. Explorer, achiever, socializer, etc. I am totally in the explorer category. I love finding new things. The more deadly and remote they are, the happier I am.

This game has literally caused me to shout at my screen, "You may kill me, kryl, but I have added more than a hundred rooms to my map with this character! This is a good death!"

The ONLY trouble I've had with "Find out IC" in my many years of playing has been that in many cases, "Find out IC" isn't a plausible solution, its just "I know but I won't tell".

Not all. But many.

Used to be that even asking how crimcode worked was "go ask your local templar and find out IC". As though I would go ask some corrupt despot what he thinks of what rules he wants to enforce, rather than "If you attack someone, <x> will happen". Finding out IC usually ends in character death, for something a character is in a situation where they may already have such information.




I think part of this thread is dedicated to the fact that its impossible to delineate between what that character would know, what EVERYONE would know, and what should be kept a secret.

Hate to say it Lizzie, but I feel you. What's weird is we've been agreeing a bit over the past couple months, sometimes (most times, though in the past I've silently disagreed with you on many things) I was a silent spectator, but I, for one, am getting tired of the participation trophies desertman mentioned, NO, you do not get one for showing up, in fact, don't show up, you will likely be shamed. NO, don't try to steal one, because no one has been stupid enough to mastercraft one. Just no. Sit your ass down and play, nothing further.

This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp edithat.

EDIT: And,we will, murder you for your trophies, if you manage to mastercraft them,

I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2016, 08:51:20 PM
I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

I'm not. I'm talking specifics. But the specifics are a general concept, not about a specific person or specific people. The concept: the dumbing-down of the game by giving the information away before people have a chance to try and figure it out for themselves first. The concern: a game will only be as good as its worst player. The easier you make it for the "worst" players to play, the worse the game will eventually be.

Everyone who played Arm before updated docs, ease-of-use help files were improved, before other websites were made, before the request tool, all those people who started playing then, and continued to play for years - all managed to do so. And - they managed to attract dozens of other players who stuck around for years. And plenty of people such as myself managed to come to this game having never played an RPI before, and muddled through, and figured shit out long before anyone ever offered to e-mail us a copy of "the map."

What is wrong with the newer players that you feel they should have answers to things the rest of us had to at least -try- and figure out ourselves? Are they somehow less intelligent? Less creative? What deficiency do they have, that we didn't have, that they would actually stop playing if they can't have the stat lists and location information and skills lists handed to them in advance?

I don't think they have any deficiency. I don't think they should be handed this stuff. I think they should read the docs like the rest of us did, and jump in and start playing, like the rest of us did. And if they can't handle it, then they aren't meant to play this game. Just like others who couldn't handle it before them.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2016, 08:51:20 PM
I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

Of course, with new players, comes the inevitable "I'm pretty good at combat now, I think I'm close to mastering the sword" that just sounds jarring. But thats going to happen, regardless, as people start to learn how to RP and fit smoothly in the world.

I don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days, and almost no "tell <x> random random.;hide" to appear mysterious.

I think some people have a desire, in an RPG, to plan out a character. "This is going to be my big brutish guy" or "This one is going to lack self-confidence that only is gained when he defeats them in a Rap Battle". So of course, sometimes you just want the "Alright I need master backstab because I have this cool plan... how do I work on backstab appropriately?"

We could get rid of out-of-game chatter if there were more in-game avenues. Atrium/Byn are great to get people started, but if someone has questions on how to backstab or what its like to be a Krathi... they may have to Solo RP which kills the Find Out IC vibe. Yes?

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 09:41:11 PM
<crusty>

I'd rather have the 50-60 people online at peak times who may have been "Handed" some knowledge (and not learn it over AIM which is how real Vets did it) of how the game actually works than the 20-30 people online at peak back in the good ol' days.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 05, 2016, 09:48:13 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 09:41:11 PM
<crusty>

I'd rather have the 50-60 people online at peak times who may have been "Handed" some knowledge (and not learn it over AIM which is how real Vets did it) of how the game actually works than the 20-30 people online at peak back in the good ol' days.

And I'd rather they earn it, the same way we vets did. Sure we got some of the info outside the game. But by that time we had earned the trust of the people giving it to us. They knew we would understand what to do with it - and what NOT to do with it. Not everyone learned that lesson but it was at least some manner of checks and balances. And, the vets knew who -not- to trust with the information (most of them). There was less likelihood of obvious, blatant powergaming and mixing of ooc concepts with ic roleplay. Such as the example I gave about someone recommending my character use a saw to whittle a twig because it gives the best benefit. They said that in-character. Their player didn't understand that it was a totally inappropriate thing to suggest. They figured - it's coded as the best wood-cutting tool, therefore you should use it on all wooden crafting. That's because someone taught that to them. And someone told that to the person before them. At some point - the "earn your info" was lost.

Also, a few years ago there were usually much more than 20-30 people online at peak.

Also, I'd rather have 20-30 quality RPers to play with, than 50 players of whom less than half are quality RPers.

New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 09:41:11 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2016, 08:51:20 PM
I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

I'm not. I'm talking specifics. But the specifics are a general concept, not about a specific person or specific people. The concept: the dumbing-down of the game by giving the information away before people have a chance to try and figure it out for themselves first. The concern: a game will only be as good as its worst player. The easier you make it for the "worst" players to play, the worse the game will eventually be.

Everyone who played Arm before updated docs, ease-of-use help files were improved, before other websites were made, before the request tool, all those people who started playing then, and continued to play for years - all managed to do so. And - they managed to attract dozens of other players who stuck around for years. And plenty of people such as myself managed to come to this game having never played an RPI before, and muddled through, and figured shit out long before anyone ever offered to e-mail us a copy of "the map."

What is wrong with the newer players that you feel they should have answers to things the rest of us had to at least -try- and figure out ourselves? Are they somehow less intelligent? Less creative? What deficiency do they have, that we didn't have, that they would actually stop playing if they can't have the stat lists and location information and skills lists handed to them in advance?

I don't think they have any deficiency. I don't think they should be handed this stuff. I think they should read the docs like the rest of us did, and jump in and start playing, like the rest of us did. And if they can't handle it, then they aren't meant to play this game. Just like others who couldn't handle it before them.

While I can understand the sentiment, it somewhat ignores the fact that this game has a sordid history of OOC info-sharing behind it. Many players did not figure it out on their own, as you say they did. They passed each other information over IRC, and then AIM, and then Tinychat, and so on and so forth until where we are today. The fact of the matter is that without those methods of information sharing, many of those players probably would have thrown their hands up in frustration and left the game.

The fact of the matter is many players are quite modest in what they want to know. Something like a guild skill list is relatively modest compared to a room-by-room map of the entire game. However, going to those sources, you often don't get a choice in what you get to see - you get shown everything that a particular person wants to share. For example, there was an old spreadsheet once available for download that had not only maps, but lists of all sorts of things about magick, poisons, etc.

At least if staff provide some information, people can see what they want to see and not feel like they need to seek out more. What staff are primarily concerned with is the spoilage of plot-related information, since it is painfully obvious when players are abusing code or world knowledge - not so much when they are whispering to each other about plots. Which unfortunately is a thing that still happens, even relatively recently.

Ultimately I don't really buy the slippery slope argument. We would have been a H&S a long time ago if that were the case. We're still attracting the same quality of new players at about the same rate as we always have. (And that reminds me that I have to do a Where Survey for January soon.)

'earn'

ok bro

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 09:58:47 PM
New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

Because the code is way too often in the way of being able to roleplay the character you've imagined. They shouldn't have to "earn" anything - nobody quits because crossbow bolts cost too much, but too many have quit and given up because they keep coming across examples like the crossbow bolts and in the end they just get frustrated and leave - these people might have been amazing roleplayers who just didn't have the patience to put up with all the BS we've had to put up with eons ago when the choices of games were extremely limited and this is why many of us decided to put up with it.

I'd rather have newbies have the option to go straight to roleplaying a character they might enjoy rather than keep having to re-write descs and characters over and over and over again until they just give up and leave just because they continually have to bump their head against a wall of frustration.

I'm not sure where the notion of someone who is willing to go through all the BS will in the end make a great roleplayer on Arm - This isn't some sort of trial by fire where only the very few survivors will be gifted the gift of awesome storytelling in the end and the rest are mediocre rejects that were not meant to be part of our community.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 09:58:47 PM
New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

Alright, let me dispel an assumption being made about new players.

Armageddon is not the only roleplay enforced mud out there. I've spent more than a decade on other roleplay enforced muds which have just as strict of standards of roleplay as this one. I have seen nothing unique here in terms of roleplay. The setting is interesting and so is the code, but the roleplay I've seen thus far is about the same as most other RP muds I've been on. You've got some standouts and you've got some who do poorly at it. And the whole range in between.

Knowing how something works in the game does not in any way impact the quality of the roleplay that's going to be coming from a player. Ignorance of the way the game functions does not diminish someone's capability of crafting an interesting character concept or of playing it out.

So let's get rid of this concept of "if they know how the game works they will suck at roleplay" argument that keeps coming up. It's not accurate.

I can't explain what I mean in a cognizant manner, so I'll just give up and not bother trying to explain anymore. Thanks for understanding, Fujikoma. My opinion isn't going to change. It hasn't changed in over a decade of playing.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2016, 08:34:05 PM
This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp edithat.

EDIT: And,we will, murder you for your trophies, if you manage to mastercraft them,

why don't you go "grumble" and flame people where it's okay to flame them.

this is not your forum to assume that just because people want something for their accomplishments that you can assail them with lettuce-level insults.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2016, 10:19:51 PM
I can't explain what I mean in a cognizant manner, so I'll just give up and not bother trying to explain anymore. Thanks for understanding, Fujikoma. My opinion isn't going to change. It hasn't changed in over a decade of playing.

Listen, man...there were no "golden days" where vets fought the good fight, personally grinding it out and gleaning every bit of knowledge piece by miserable piece.

We were all on IRC, AIM, ICQ, Yahoo messenger, etc. etc., blabbing about everything, sharing everything, spreading bugs and exploits, spilling the beans about major plots.

I mean, the old days were probably a million times worse than the game is now.  For realz, y'all.  We were shitbirds.

i am, fuck, just do not...

I agree with Synth again, more or less.  Both in the behavior and the two facedness about it.  I believe what Nergal's saying has some huge clout in the dialectic as well.  

Since someone brought up the basic Bartle types, and the Explorer specifically(and what Riev is saying), I'd like to touch on the concept that an Explorer is not literally someone who gets a character and goes to make maps of the place.  But someone who likes to walk through the weeds of nearly all facets of game play experience.  Code mechanics, locations, resources, crafting requirements and so on. This makes holding back information a vital way to attract this kind of player and in my belief can be quite the positive thing.  That player may be a E heavy player who is so good at role play it'll make your head spin.  But you shouldn't hold back information that is vital to other styles of play, and the vagaries of some of this information is difficult to process at times.  Find out IC can be wielded this way, at times.   If its about plot, great, find out IC.  If its a genuine mechanics question someone with little to no E enjoyment has, take them aside (with a helper/pms) and dish out everything feasible.

As an(the) RPI I believe Arm should embrace the many styles and manners of enjoyment a diverse player base has with the single exception of:  You have to play a character.  That character could be a nearly infinite number of things, mind you, but you have to role play a character.

Ways to alleviate the feeling of keeping up with the Jones do look like they are being addressed, tidying up docs, opening up on class/area descriptions and some reference material on line, and tweaks to skill behavior as mention earlier.  Censorship of discussion also seems to be opening up:  ala this thread.  Also, I think somewhat in a counter trend to recent dogma:  the glass ceiling is starting to crack, and for my personal play style I can only say thank god.

So, I guess, keep on keeping on?  I am pretty happy with what I'm seeing.

Edit to add for lolz:  Go ahead and blow up that glass ceiling though.

Well. I'll say this, just because you're a killer, doesn't mean you want to be swamped with idiot victims all just OOCly begging for a knife in their back, especially when one was way more than enough... and when I say this, I mean you guys going out of your way for some MCB, chill the fuck out.

Quote from: Nergal on February 05, 2016, 10:04:03 PM

At least if staff provide some information, people can see what they want to see and not feel like they need to seek out more. What staff are primarily concerned with is the spoilage of plot-related information, since it is painfully obvious when players are abusing code or world knowledge - not so much when they are whispering to each other about plots. Which unfortunately is a thing that still happens, even relatively recently.

On this note, one of the things I've seen more often recently is that either something happens in the game or someone is playing in a way someone doesn't like, so they come here and give a large rant about it. They might not give names or specific plot detail here, but you can pretty much deduce what is happening based on their semi-vague arguement. Which in turn causes other people to go to other private means or other forums to ask for those specific details. Besides the fact that it is contributing to the sharing of OOC information it feels like a vague attack on a how a specific person is playing or how a plot is playing out.

I don't know if any solution, or even if anyone thinks this is a problem, but sometimes wish people would just file a complaint and at least wait a little while before making thier rants on the GDB. I suppose I should be happy they bring it here instead of ranting in-game like I've seen some players do too.   :-\

Quote from: Dresan on February 06, 2016, 09:31:57 AM
I don't know if any solution, or even if anyone thinks this is a problem, but sometimes wish people would just file a complaint and at least wait a little while before making thier rants on the GDB. I suppose I should be happy they bring it here instead of ranting in-game like I've seen some players do too.   :-\

Vagueposting is against the gdb forum rules.

I do agree that people could get more mileage out of the 'player complaint' tool than they do.  In my view, it is just a process for giving staff the heads up that something -might- be up with the behaviour of a player.  Staff then has it on file (it's like account notes) to check for repeated misbehaviour.

Often, though, I hold my hand in filing them, partly because of the word 'complaint', partly out of laziness, but mostly because I think: well, I don't know the whole situation.

But if you think of player complaints not so much as complaints but ways to help nudge new and old players towards better roleplay, then, maybe we'd use it more.

I also think anonymous complaints might be something to consider.  A quick: Just saw Amos (tall muscular man) ignore the vNPC population here: he took a shit on the tregil queen while all the tregil minions were watching.  Just a heads up.

Very interesting conversation.  I can see both sides and think that I would like to see more mechanics made clear for players, especially the ones that aren't intuitively obvious, such as some of the crazy branches. 

It's naive to think that people won't find out things in OOC ways, spread information, etc.  This is a problem/concern/fact with all RPIs I've played.  There's no way to stop it.  By refusing to make a lot of it available to all, you're really just rewarding the cheaters.  So I think skill lists, how to codedly do things...those are good things to make available to everyone.  Maybe not the high karma guilds?  Keep the mystery for them.

Having said that, it makes me sad to think of -everything- being available.  Detailed maps, especially.  Maybe because that's one of -my- favorite things to build myself, and it always makes me feel a bit morose when they're just free for the downloading.  Sure I can still go ahead and do my own, but it's just not as good, somehow.

Now...for my big question....

Quote from: RievI don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days.

What's bad about getting your coins from your pouch?  Is this another listening bench moment?

Refugee, I am actually very glad for the maps that are available. Yes, I am admitting to having looked at them, and no, it doesn't make me happy. I do like the sense of exploration, and I would prefer to discover a lot of things myself. The good thing (or possibly bad thing) is that those maps are so confusing to me that I barely understand what I am looking at anyway.

The reason I look at maps other people have made is that I have absolutely no sense of direction because it is impossible for me to get a grasp on where I am and visualize a map of my surroundings in my head (it was actually a surprise to me when I realized that most people are able to do this!) and those problems definitely carry over IG. In fact, it's even worse because so many rooms are identical. At least the landmarks are really obvious to me. It's also very hard for me to draw a map myself, especially when not all the room links make sense. I could use an auto-mapper in my client, I suppose, but I never quite figured out how to use the advanced functions of my client.

If not for those maps I would probably play exclusively social characters and bar-sitters. To be fair, that is a lot of what I play anyway because of this very issue, but at least I get to try a ranger or something, even if I suck at it. I wish the maps weren't as exhaustive as they are, but there you go. I hope I do not get in trouble for this, but I just wanted to explain why different people may need different amounts and types of OOC information to properly enjoy/play the game.

Beethoven, I remember that about you!  And you have a very good point.

There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

If you like the mystery, you can look away from those things before they're spoiled. The docs would be better coming from a place sanctioned by staff, but!

I understand your problem well, beethoven. I have a good direction sense in real life, but in game? Nope. That's why I stick primarily to city dwellers!

Yeah, if you enjoy mapping the entire world, I don't understand what's keeping you from doing it? It's more of a personal problem than the community's problem if you can't help yourself from spoiling your own fun :)

The same with skill lists or spell lists or whatever, if you want it to be a total mystery nothing prevents you from keeping it that way - It also takes NOTHING away from people's ability to role-play great characters - the two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Heck, a lot of people in this thread have access to those maps and skill lists and they are also considered very great and important players of our community - Saying that you are against it when -you- yourself have been using them for years now is ::) worthy at best.

I'm on team Synth here.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2016, 11:38:32 AM
I think part of the problem is that we tend to post in superlatives on the forum, which leads to a faulty perception that things are more extreme than they really are.

I agree 100% that we drop more casual references to code mechanics on the GDB than we used to, but I can't remember the last truly jarring thing I've seen in game. I challenge everyone to stop for a moment and think of the last truly inexplicable, immersion-breaking thing they've seen in game. I think mine was almost 2 years ago, personally. Sure, I've seen a lot of people grind, and I've seen someone try "charge mekillot", but I haven't seen anyone "boxing lizards" for quite some time. On the whole, I see far less of it than I used to and that's because...

Quote from: Synthesis on February 06, 2016, 01:58:12 AM
Listen, man...there were no "golden days" where vets fought the good fight, personally grinding it out and gleaning every bit of knowledge piece by miserable piece.

We were all on IRC, AIM, ICQ, Yahoo messenger, etc. etc., blabbing about everything, sharing everything, spreading bugs and exploits, spilling the beans about major plots.

I mean, the old days were probably a million times worse than the game is now.  For realz, y'all.  We were shitbirds.

Remember Trillion? It had AIM, MSN Messanger, and Yahoo Messenger all rolled into one!! I also vaguely remember sitting in a ventrillo chat listening to two guys hunt down a third. "I think he went down off the cliff. Go back to the choke point in the road, and I'll try to flush him back your way." We were shitbirds.

I think the main reason for the rise in mechanic discussion is because the shit-birdiest of us quit the game and built a forum to share their horrible advice on. (I do actually like some of those guys, but it's like Bowling for Soup - 30 years old, not in high school anymore, and still making a living bitching about how bad high school was.) Note that this was not the FIRST time anyone has built an alternate Arm forum to share sekrits, but I think it's the only one that's caught on.

I think there's always been a demand for more information. Not super top sekrets like "what's the name of Tek's pet schnauzer". But simpler information like "when I hide, then sneak to another room, do I have to re-hide, or should I still be hidden?" Stuff that your character would never have to worry about because if they're being stealthy they're being stealthy, but stuff that you the player has to know and have a hard time finding out without IMing your buddy to say "can you see me now?"

In the past questions like that would be instantly stamped down as "find out IC" (even though it's not an IC issue), and then the thread it was asked in would be locked. It was ridiculous, and like any ridiculous prohibition it lead to plenty of good and innocent people having to go get their needs filled from other, less-legitimate sources.

And it's not like giving out basic branch trees and skill information is that much of an advantage. It's the old "book smarts vs street smarts" argument. Knowing the basics of how the combat system works isn't a replacement for having spent hundreds of hours fighting every goddamn thing in the Known World, and harnessing a feel for how the fight is going, and knowing which creatures use what skills. Giving a player a map isn't the same as having it memorized, and knowing where all the scary creatures typically spawn, and what routes are less dangerous than the actual ROADS marked on the map...

I rambled a bit, but the summary is that, even though the (public) discussion of mechanics is up, the abuse of that knowledge is way the fuck down.

The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

Quote from: Desertman on February 06, 2016, 11:19:57 AM
This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Yeah? How's that been workin' out for ya bud?

I'm not saying that we should "control" the information we have. If you look, a big part of my post was discussing the futility of trying to control the information. I'm saying that the old mentality of "find out IC" doesn't work.  And that knowing some basic code mechanics isn't going to hurt the game.

But if frustrated players wind up on the shadowboards trying to find out why their piercing skill won't raise, they're going to inadvertently learn quite a bit about Nilazi's while they're there. Personally, I don't care too much. I obviously read it. But the bottom line is that many people find this info necessary, so why shouldn't the imms be a source of it?

Quote from: Desertman on February 06, 2016, 11:19:57 AM
The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

We're not saying give it to everyone, we're saying give it to those who choose to find it. It makes perfect sense that we would rather someone got their information from staff than some outside source where said information could be very wrong.


Not to mention if someone knows they can get code information here, where it's more restricted, that might keep them from going elsewhere and seeing more than they should see.

The amount of hate and vitriol being directed at new players in this thread is just... overwhelming and disturbing. I honestly wish I'd never read it because it's making me feel uncomfortable about and unwanted in a game I really enjoy.

Go look at my profile, I haven't yet finished my first year with Arm. I am still a noob in thousands of ways. I can't get from Allanak to Red Storm (and yes, I have the map... I have a hard time reading the wilderness parts). You would be shocked how many times I go the wrong way on roads I've been walking for a year. I don't particularly care how combat works, but it's nice to know enough to not die. Skill progression is useful to know because why on earth would you ever expect to branch scan from listen, or sewing from tanning, or brew from hunt?

I would like someone to tell me why it makes me a bad player that I want to know these things. I don't have a decade (or two) of experience with Arm. I don't have unlimited free time to do nothing but sink myself into the game. Even if I did, there are still other things that I want to do sometimes.

There is twenty years of history to this game. Twenty years of rules. Twenty years of code changes and bug fixes and quirks and development and growth. Twenty years that I can't catch up on no matter how hard I try because I don't have time to spend on it. And yes, every single day I am aware of the fact that in terms of game knowledge, I'm "behind." I do my absolute best to make the game better, more interesting, and more fun, and I hope I succeed.

So please tell me again how as a new player I'm lazy and want the game to be handed to me. How I want it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to make it less fun for everyone. There are good new players, and there are bad new players. There are good old players, and there are bad old players.

Take a moment and think about just who and what you're disparaging with threads like this, and the effect it could have on your game. You think code is the reason that newbies don't stay? Or so called problem staff members? I'd argue it's threads and community sentiment like this. Never have I ever felt less welcome in an online community than I do right now.

+1 Zenith.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 06, 2016, 11:16:04 AM
I rambled a bit, but the summary is that, even though the (public) discussion of mechanics is up, the abuse of that knowledge is way the fuck down.

This is also a point I agree with.

Quote from: Zenith on February 06, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
everything

Everything you said here is something I wish I could have thought of and said, and you said it better than I ever could have.

+1.

Heh, I don't disagree with you, Zenith, but as a new player I don't particularly feel offended.

I feel like it's a small group of "entitled" veterans who are concerned that they're losing their edge. Every game I've ever been in had a minority group that felt that way. I've never had the time or inclination to be overly concerned with that sort of thing. I'm too busy learning and eroding their perceived "edge". :)

This game isn't that difficult to understand. That "edge" vanishes pretty quickly and it's not a particularly competitive game anyway. Maybe it is if you want to involve yourself in a whole lot of plots and schemes, but that's a whole other game within the game.

Quote from: Zenith on February 06, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
Take a moment and think about just who and what you're disparaging with threads like this, and the effect it could have on your game. You think code is the reason that newbies don't stay? Or so called problem staff members? I'd argue it's threads and community sentiment like this. Never have I ever felt less welcome in an online community than I do right now.

I was about to post something along these lines.  There are probably a number of reasons for "the rise of the metagame", but among them might be the occasional eyerolling that vets do.

I once said "hey apprentice level weapons are actually really good, don't worry about it" and someone posted a meme laugh or something back at me with an "um no".  After seeing that, can you imagine a new player not wanting to know what makes apprentice-level weapon skills so laughable?

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 06, 2016, 01:18:16 PM
+1 Zenith.

There's a lot in this thread that's ridiculous or even delusional, but Zenith's post is the first one that's upsetting.

I'd say that anything you really need to know is in the documentation. And if you have questions you can hop on teamspeak or helper chat.

Edit: Wait a moment what are we even talking about.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2016, 08:34:05 PM
This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp that.

Oh, really, is it?  You know, I was going to avoid pushing these particular buttons, but you've exposed yourself in one of the most transparent examples of insecurity and projection I've ever seen, while casting a generalized flame into the crowd in a cowardly attempt to deter scrutiny.  What else am I supposed to do here?

Let me tell you about some things adults do:  They go to work.  They develop skills to pursue better opportunities for themselves, their loved ones, and their communities.  Often, they have families that they provide for and take care of.  They have real responsibilities.  I could go on, if these notions are foreign to you.

Clocking in 10, 20, 40 complete days of various parts play-acting and skillgrinding is a pastime, to put it bluntly, far, far, far[/i] more suited to the life of an overgrown child than to that of an adult.  The adult will have to schedule that time carefully, and Arm will have to be a high priority.  The overgrown child can find that spare time just lying around. We all know this. Furthermore, that adult has probably realized by now that the dedication, leadership, and scheming skills that are necessary to contribute and succeed at a high level in-game can yield tremendous non-virtual rewards by applying them in the real world (excepting M, though C and B do well in small doses). 

Adults have been dropping out of this game constantly for years.  This is a known fact of attrition in all online games -- adults leave as their lives become more adult.  It is truly heartbreaking (and--I suspect--far more revealing than you intend) that you are trying to identify pouring untold amounts of time into an online game as a marker of adulthood.

Of course, Arm is a jewel among online games, and when the play-acting part is emphasized and done well, it's an engaging experience suited for an adult sensibility.  Of that there is no doubt.  But the advancement mechanics are obviously heavily weighted toward the overgrown child demographic, and everyone knows it, which is why this desperate bluster to the contrary reads so empty and tragic. Like a frat defending its cherished hazing rituals, there will always be a certain macho posturing from self-styled vets afraid of seeing their hours of skill-grinding as having been in vain.

And let me turn the macho bluster the other way around:  You couldn't handle adults in this game.  You need the buffer of hundreds of hours of grinding to keep the adults from outshining you.  Adding options to reduce the need for skill-grinding makes the game more friendly to adults, and more friendly to noobs, and that's why you're afraid of it.  You know you're not smarter or more skilled, you've just been doing it longer.


I suggest a simple alternative that solves the skill-grinding conundrum by means of a choice: Ibusoe's very good tiered advancement proposal here -- http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49935.msg905141.html

To simplify the OP, the player would have an option of various levels of starting skill boosts with some corresponding cost in the form of a lowered skill cap.  That's it.  With 3 levels it would look roughly like this:

Tier 1: Like current PCs.
Tier 2: Modest boost to starting skills, modestly lowered skillcaps.
Tier 3: Good starting skills, little advancement potential.


For those that, like Armaddict, enjoy the long climb to perfection (a sentiment I have enjoyed and experienced over several long-lived PCs), option 1 is available, and they can play the game like they always have.

For those with varying degrees of impatience, whether imposed by real-life adult responsibilities, noobish inexperience, or a childish impetuousness, more ready-to-go options are available, with a perfectly fair tradeoff.  As a leader, I would have loved it if people who knew perfectly well they had limited time would app up a boosted PC who could be codedly useful now instead of a week or two from now.  Curating hires from noob level is great, but a lot of action is slowed down as a result.

The main objections that will arise at this point are variants on the typical nerd gripe -- "other people will be able to enjoy the game in a different way then I do, *pout*".  I'm going to trust it's obvious why that's a treacherous road to go down, one will bring us to the tragic ironies of a "sperg" insult in conjunction with a defense of an arcane, obscure, rule-based system that requires hours of performing repetitive tasks in social isolation.

Holy cow.

I enjoyed the hell out of reading that.

Quote from: Desertman on February 06, 2016, 11:19:57 AM
The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

Oh boy do we disagree, and oh boy does this smell like a false dichotomy.  If a player has access to all the basic code use and preliminary common knowledge of anyone else who has played this game for x amount of time, you conclude there is not a reduced incentive to try and pry these things(and more) out of non-site resources?  All the network and information science I've been exposed to seems to disagree with you.

And mind, I'm not saying things that no player has access to through legitimate means such as code functionality.  The E/A types will tend to try to reverse engineer this on their own and for their own pleasure, I suspect.  I have bias in this last statement, as by Bartle classification I have a big A streak in me,  and nearly no E admittedly.  But it also offers insight.

Quote from: Zenith on February 06, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
I would like someone to tell me why it makes me a bad player that I want to know these things. I don't have a decade (or two) of experience with Arm. I don't have unlimited free time to do nothing but sink myself into the game. Even if I did, there are still other things that I want to do sometimes.

Don't worry about it, most of us don't think that it makes you a bad player at all :)

And I know for a fact that some of those who posted against an easier share of code information (to a reasonable degree, of course) and whatnot actually possess and use these maps and skill sheets they seem to be so against.

Zenith's post is sad :(

I like Zenith

There's no qualitative difference between code knowledge acquired over the course of 10+ years of trial and error, code knowledge acquired from a google search and a trip to the whingers' board, code knowledge acquired by carefully reading through the GDB, and code knowledge acquired because staff decided to put it in a helpfile.  The knowledge itself affects (or doesn't affect) how someone plays the game in exactly the same way.  I don't trust someone to play their character better, in the sense of 'well my character wouldn't know that so I'm going to pretend I don't,' based on the manner in which they acquired their knowledge.

Then again, my philosophy is to generally not care what other people are doing or how they play the game.  I don't care if people twink this skill or use that OOC map to navigate south to north on a character that should know to travel from one city to the other.  I'm more focused on doing my own task to the best of my ability, and that task is playing a fun and believable character.  The only things that ruin anything for me are (1) the OOC spread of IC information, and (2) the use of OOC motivations to justify IC actions.

Quote from: valeria on February 06, 2016, 05:28:57 PM
There's no qualitative difference between code knowledge acquired over the course of 10+ years of trial and error, code knowledge acquired from a google search and a trip to the whingers' board, code knowledge acquired by carefully reading through the GDB, and code knowledge acquired because staff decided to put it in a helpfile.  The knowledge itself affects (or doesn't affect) how someone plays the game in exactly the same way.  I don't trust someone to play their character better, in the sense of 'well my character wouldn't know that so I'm going to pretend I don't,' based on the manner in which they acquired their knowledge.

Then again, my philosophy is to generally not care what other people are doing or how they play the game.  I don't care if people twink this skill or use that OOC map to navigate south to north on a character that should know to travel from one city to the other.  I'm more focused on doing my own task to the best of my ability, and that task is playing a fun and believable character.  The only things that ruin anything for me are (1) the OOC spread of IC information, and (2) the use of OOC motivations to justify IC actions.

Strong points, and I failed to link properly the acquisition of 'bad' information from non site resources that comes with seeking standard information that may not have been present.  But I meant to!

Quote from: catchall on February 06, 2016, 04:27:19 PM

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2016, 08:34:05 PM
This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp that.

wisdom of a great cabbage-to-be

my friend, the cabbage has already struck the blow. do not resort to such unnecessary flaming. do not sink to that level. there is no need to further antagonize. he realizes that what he posted was unnecessarily rude and he is apologetic.

i hope. otherwise, he will just "grumble" about it somewhere else.

cabbage knows all. sees all.

cabbage thinks this idea of a "metagame" is just a constructive illusion by a lettuce people meant to justify players using and even abusing the code to attempt to gain an advantage.

one hundred pushups. one hundred situps. a ten kilometer run. do not turn the heat up. do not turn the air conditioning on. dedicate yourself to this every day, and you will become stronger.


you can ascend to the level of a cabbage simply by training in a realistic manner. realistically, devoting several in game hours to combat and combative training is good.

hunting for a few hours, or even a day, is good.

but remember to please take breaks. do not abuse the code that is given to you. play a realistic character. if you hunt a day, maybe take a day off. if you spar really hard one day, do something different the next. you may be noticed, and staff may even grant you small bumps here and there as reward for good roleplay.

they probably will not, and i am in the belief that it most certainly will not happen, but nothing is impossible, so just do it. roleplay. bring your character to life.

the cabbage points to this metagame, and calls it foul. the cabbage declares the metagame is a falsity, is is an entity that is a usurper of all that we stand for. strike it down with me, my brussels sprouts, and you shall ascend with me to cabbagehood.


tl;dr version: metagame is bad, all it does is detract from what is really important. "exploring to map the world" is not metagaming. using a map to find your way along common travel routes is not metagaming.

sharing this well-constructed map with everyone and anyone is just abuse of knowledge and trust. the cabbage will find you. and he will kill ruin your metagame.

Quote from: Zenith on February 06, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
the defeatist tone of a wounded lettuce

brother, it is time to shed your skin. tear off your flesh. let the cabbage seep into you. allow it to merge with you.

let me join our minds, and we shall become one. you will never feel more welcome than when you finally merge with the all-powerful being that is myself.

I tend to think that the game has gone from the big taboo being sharing maps and shit to the big taboo being informing each other through OOC means about IC happenings.

As someone who used to regularly not read messages from the likes of Cyberpatrol, I approve of this change in a way. But I deliberately obfuscative about a lot of things I am doing IC if it every comes to that.

Not that I talk to anyone about Arm away from the game, hell I rarely attend the Teamspeak server.

Quote from: Tuannon on February 06, 2016, 06:16:06 PM
I tend to think that the game has gone from the big taboo being sharing maps and shit to the big taboo being informing each other through OOC means about IC happenings.

As someone who used to regularly not read messages from the likes of Cyberpatrol, I approve of this change in a way. But I deliberately obfuscative about a lot of things I am doing IC if it every comes to that.

Not that I talk to anyone about Arm away from the game, hell I rarely attend the Teamspeak server.

Which is a travesty, because between you and ghosty, it's a tight competition between sexiest voice.

Back on topic:
Honestly, I liked the tiered approach mentioned above. But that's because I prefer RP to grinding. If i wanted to grind levels or skills, I'd go back to playing WoW. But I've neither the time nor inclination.

Quote from: Refugee on February 06, 2016, 10:05:39 AM

Now...for my big question....

Quote from: RievI don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days.

What's bad about getting your coins from your pouch?  Is this another listening bench moment?

Not specifically. There are/were/can be those that macro taking things out of pockets and packs, because "what if a thief is around I don't want them taking my coin".

Which, because of a delay in the steal function, is not possible when you macro out those commands. They can all be done instantaneously and reduce 'steal' to useless. (It may have gone down, because containers can now be opened by outside parties, reducing the overall fear)

But its a throwback to the days where people would do things because they knew it made them safe. Like the people who stand in a bar, brawling everyone, being an asshole, getting beaten in a brawl and then still running their mouths JUST to entice newbies to type "kill". Its RARE, but it does happen.












[/quote]

Ahhhhh...
That is pretty lame.

Teamspeak server? Info pls. Nevermind, found it. Sorry to interrupt but I have a sexy voice and wanna talk to you people.

Quote from: Case on February 06, 2016, 05:17:27 PM
Zenith's post is sad :(

I like Zenith

Despite the shit fit we're having, we're generally an okay bunch, and nice to newbies.

We're just a reactive bunch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMt55fi7ZQQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMt55fi7ZQQ)

Quote from: boog on February 06, 2016, 11:07:35 AM
There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

Well, there kind of is.  And that is when that info is posted on the GDB in casual conversation, which gives one no forewarning or opportunity to avoid it.  Which is what this thread was about.  But I did appreciate the helpful people letting me know that I was a two-faced, hypocritical, newbie hating, latent shitbird guardian of the ivory veteran privilege tower for saying so.  :P

Maps, I'm happy with a scribbled copy of the world map,that's in the help file. I also need a line showing the Gaj on the west side, and the salt flats on the east side, as I can lose my bearings anytime, without both scribblings in front of me.
Even though maps showing places off the beaten track are out there, I don't  want them anywhere near the official site. Except for tribal docs, of couroe. Does that make  sense?
Same with crafting., I want all but the basics to be learnt in game. I realize that needs vets and staff to be caretakers of recipes that might be lost.  Out of game recipes are abhorrent to me in a game thats lifeblood is interaction and story progression. Then again, I've probably analyzed items new to me, that may have been made from the book.
Mundane Skills and combat...meh...a NWN style manual wouldn't bother me if they front up with a living breathing PC.
My opinions and feelings only.

Quote from: James de Monet on February 07, 2016, 12:49:55 AM

Quote from: boog on February 06, 2016, 11:07:35 AM
There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

Well, there kind of is.  And that is when that info is posted on the GDB in casual conversation, which gives one no forewarning or opportunity to avoid it.  Which is what this thread was about.  But I did appreciate the helpful people letting me know that I was a two-faced, hypocritical, newbie hating, latent shitbird guardian of the ivory veteran privilege tower for saying so.  :P

I don't think that about you!

I haven't ever seen any game breaking documentation posted, so I guess my experience is far different than other people's.

I've never really looked at what's out there. Which is why my delves always die. :(

This is how I feel: (first paragraph is long and bla bla)
I feel like I've become a meta gamer. Not because I want to win, but because my characters want to impress. So I meta game... But I roleplay. Hell yeah, do I roleplay. But... I wanna say it was about a month ago when I realized my roleplay really wasn't what it used to be.
I remember I used to be the guy that emoted /every/ time he used the skin command. Oh, yeah... Now I just do one emote and wait five minutes or something and use the skin command five times, pack up and go. - I don't do this when other PCs are with me, but I do it when "no one's" looking and that irks me!\

I feel like... it's very difficult to roleplay a 40 year old mercenary who's been a mercenary for twenty years now... not being able to kill a scrab as easily as the mercenary who's been doing it for a month now. You could chalk it up to difference in talent, I guess.

I also hate it when people are like, "I've mastered the shield. Let's practice something else."
What? - this is the lack of actual training I'm talkin' about. Please roleplay training as more than just combat. Maybe your skills will go up if anyone watching notices. But I have to stand down because I haven't been in a combat clan in forever. If I get byn sargeant, though... you mother fuckers better be ready to roleplay...

Quote from: Chettaman on February 07, 2016, 01:48:16 AM
This is how I feel: (first paragraph is long and bla bla)
I feel like I've become a meta gamer. Not because I want to win, but because my characters want to impress. So I meta game... But I roleplay. Hell yeah, do I roleplay. But... I wanna say it was about a month ago when I realized my roleplay really wasn't what it used to be.
I remember I used to be the guy that emoted /every/ time he used the skin command. Oh, yeah... Now I just do one emote and wait five minutes or something and use the skin command five times, pack up and go. - I don't do this when other PCs are with me, but I do it when "no one's" looking and that irks me!\

I feel like... it's very difficult to roleplay a 40 year old mercenary who's been a mercenary for twenty years now... not being able to kill a scrab as easily as the mercenary who's been doing it for a month now. You could chalk it up to difference in talent, I guess.

I also hate it when people are like, "I've mastered the shield. Let's practice something else."
What? - this is the lack of actual training I'm talkin' about. Please roleplay training as more than just combat. Maybe your skills will go up if anyone watching notices. But I have to stand down because I haven't been in a combat clan in forever. If I get byn sargeant, though... you mother fuckers better be ready to roleplay...

I've always felt that emotes are for the other players.

Meaning that if I'm on ranger #100, I am not going to emote the skin command.

Yes I understand there might be hiding and invisible people, but I won't be trying to get an academy award for solo emoting JUST in case one of them is around.

The only metagamey thing that bothers me is when people use commands like Peek on their mounts and shit to twink it up, so that the players or npcs they it on only get it once they've mastered it off creepily peeking at their war beetle for ten days played.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I still find a reasons why I would be doing the things I do, but I haven't done stuff like that yet.
I don't know why I do when I /could/ just peek at my mount, ya know...?

like I was saying, My thief has been a thief for like thirty years now. Doing thief-like things should be natural or something.
But of course, I like to imagine I'm a responsible role player - hence all of my death to people who just went crazy code on me when I expected /them/ to roleplay too.
so after maxing my skills I may not even use them. Or i'll use, say peek, and never steal a thing. Maybe I'll not even notice about the odd things in their inventory. I would use the peek command all the time, sure. But I would take advantage of its benifits whenever on an important mission or something. You know what I mean?
Me? I just expect too much responsibility from people...

The only thing I really metagame is trying to get my cooking to master on a merchant, because I always have so many ideas for mastercrafts and cooking is the only thing I get to make a really good mastercraft in for a while if I'm playing indie/don't have a crafting subguild. And being indie, 95% not feeding anyone else, the food simply goes into storage. I was that retard elf who had pockets full of a ridiculous number of dried kalans when that one soldier ordered me to empty my pockets and show him my pack.

In defense of wanting more game info ...

Some of the new players are new to THIS mud, but not other muds. There's a lot to be said for being able to ease into a new mud when you're leaving one that you're pretty knowledgeable about after years of play. The info I've been able to scarf up here has certainly eased the transition.

I'm glad it has eased your transition.
Knowledge is power! I firmly believe this.
But there are people who misuse their power and it breaks my heart. (it also gets my characters killed pretty often)

Thoughts and reflections on the Meta-game:

I wonder if it's on the rise, not only due to available knowledge but as well due to fact that players, some of them, are guilty of using meta-game knowledge to simply win. 

No one likes to lose outright, or be placed into unwinnable situations.  Summoning the creativity and passion to write PC after PC with unique and interesting personalities is not only a challenge but can be draining.   There is an attachment on that OOC level, no one likes their efforts being invalidated.

I admit, I've sort of given up on good pc's out the gate.  A bad stat rolls or shitty luck can invalidate that varied and well thought out background with out a moments notice.  Generic is easier to let go and roll anew, hoping for better luck.

An example, couple years ago, I rolled out a ranger/linguist.  He had interesting background, from a family of minor merchants but successful known for trading between RSV and Allanak.  He has a falling out with his father over his love of languages and culture.  PC made it to I think... 20ish hour played? Died in a dumb fashion, I think a storm steered him into a mekillot. Because I was struggling to find work as a linguist (lol thanks psionics) and need to find Scrabs to hunt/salt to greb.

Another later time, I just rolled up exile tribal ranger number #3005645.  That pc went on have to have awesome stats, cool friends, when on terribly stupid hunting ventures, had camp fire stories, and enjoy an interesting life.

I worried about the skill sheet on the Tribal first, salting and grinding through one random insect to the next, so I can make excursions into danger territory and live to ride away.  Personality didn't equate into his character till like ~3days played, even then he was shallow till about 5day ish.   I had to develop the actual solid PC beyond the skill sheet, after I knew the investment was worth it.

Everyone keeps talking about using the metagame to "win".

In a game like Armageddon, what does "win" mean?

Each character of mine is basically a story unfolding. If it unfolds (or ends) unfavorably for that specific character, that's not necessarily a loss for me. The only character I really regret losing was a fun one with a very specific tribal style that fell off a cliff and died. Just not a very good end for a fun character I wasn't bored of. It hasn't impacted my overall "fun" factor for the mud nor has it altered any of the storylines of all subsequent characters. So while it wasn't a "win" it wasn't a loss either.

Personally if you add mechanics where a water mage can dig up their own food, or mechanics where a firemage can create water, people will metagame.   Personally, my pcs have never had power, will never ever have power, but they sure know how to avoid being killed.

Quote from: Miradus on February 08, 2016, 04:20:40 PM
Everyone keeps talking about using the metagame to "win".

In a game like Armageddon, what does "win" mean?

Win in subjective, and perhaps not the right word for what everyone is trying to communicate but the closest.

Winning, could mean the successful end of a plot, survival of a fight, how many PK's you get under your belt, how much impact you have on the player base/world.

In terms of coded win, it's perhaps the easier of the two or at least the one with clearly defined parameters to achieve desired results.

The other would be scheming/role playing/generally socializing your way to have a plot come to fruition and leave an impact on the world/pbase.  Which is rightfully considered better form.

A coded win's just easier, more readily abused, and often leaves the 'loser' with a sour feelings.  

A twinked up warrior raids/pk's a bunch of people, causing an uproar creates an impact = Coded win.

PC scheme's/makes contacts/and leaves an impact on the world/player base = non-coded win.

Nothing inherently wrong with a "coded win" but it's considered poor form especially when some bland warrior appears from no where having beat on lizards with a sparring club for 30 days played.

Again this is player subjective.  Some players make PC's with specific win conditions. "Make Sargent" or "Become the best crafter" or "Slaughter Kryl Whole sale." "Start a deadly plot" "Become the Sandlord 2.0"

Other players might make PC's just be an experience, trying to create just characters and take on more reactionary roles with in the world, or motivate pc's to more open ended goals.

It's up to individual players to decide a win condition/lose condition. 

By 'winning' and 'losing' we're trying to describe how pc's reached levels of power/impact and whether or not the player achieves their goals through out their PC's life.

You also have to realize that some people enjoy being a griefer.

A player who exists to ruin other players experiences.  I personally have only pk'd a few players and normally in self defense.  I feel horrible about it when I do it because I just took that player they have had for months or years and washed it down the tubes.

But some people enjoy grinding away day in day out to get their warrior ranger magicker whatever to that instakill status.  There really isn't anything wrong with that either.  Honestly my only issue with those players is they make playing the high karma roles harder for the rest of us because you give a player with the ability to grind a warrior to ungodly dangerous levels over a real life year to kill folks the ability to cast one single spell after four days played, and if I was on staff I'd worry.

So the only ill will I'll ever hold towards the griefer type players is that I'll never be allowed to play a sorcerer because of them. Heh.

Griefers exist in every game. Heck, they exist in the real world too. People who go out of their way to be an ass.

What can you do about it? Not much. I don't spend too much of my time worrying about them. I can be killed by an unexpected bahamet just as fast as I can by a griefer. They're just part of the game.

The vast majority of my interactions in game have been positive. Even the ones that IC-wise weren't so positive. If I get involved in more shennanigans and such then I suppose I'd see more of what you're talking about, but I don't normally. We'll see how it goes over time.

I came from a heavy pk-mud after almost 20 years. Some of what is considered griefing is just considered "tactics" there. Even in an anything goes environment like that, some people found ways to become exceptionally problematic for other players.

Does anyone wanna turn this into sword are online or am I the only one?
>: D

Quote from: Chettaman on February 08, 2016, 09:32:26 PM
Does anyone wanna turn this into sword are online or am I the only one?
>: D

I'll kill you I swear to god.

how would you even

the world of sword art online isn't even comprehensible

just mary sue again and again

This thread has run its course, debate was had, conclusions were reached for some. The Meta Game exists, it is sought by many, it is rejected by some. Play the game, have fun. Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.