The Rise of the Metagame

[BadSkeelz]

Ah, alright.

It'll be interesting to see what effect it has but I don't think it's going to be a game changer or make things more "balanced." Me, I prefer just to avoid PVP unless I can secure overwhelming advantage over the target. And even then they might surprise me. I think that's the Zalanthan way to look at conflict and PVP and metagame, and not get bogged down worrying about skill failures. Assume the target is dangerous (probably because of unfair means, but Zalanthas is unfair) and take as many mitigating steps as you can.

Don't feel much different about PVE either, actually. If you don't think you have an advantage over something for god's sake don't go poking it in the face.

Though I really really like it when something in my skill list ticks up. Just do.

[Fujikoma]

Don't feel much different about PVE either, actually. If you don't think you have an advantage over something for god's sake don't go poking it in the face.

CrIKEy! He's REALLY mad now!

[Jingo]

For what it's worth, I haven't played a combat role since 2012. And an outdoor hunting role since 2008. I can't be sure if anything has been rejiggered since then.

It did seem that my Legionaire Assassin was frequently outclassed even late in life by newish hunters that would go out and fight things in their free time.

[BadSkeelz]

Were they interesting to talk to and RP with? I can forgive a lot if the PC's at least good company.

[Patuk]

Um.  So, about the derail: you do know that nessalin pointed out that you have hidden combat skills vs. different kinds of things out there (humanoid, snakes, etc.).  So, in terms of code mechanics, the guy who spends his afternoons with a bushy beard wailing on tregils will be pretty good at killing tregils and the guy who spends his afternoons clean shaven wailing on humans will be pretty good at killing humans.  Which, like, makes sense.

Re the topic: improving the help files so that the coded reality of the game is represented accurately to players is important.  There's nothing worse than breaking immersion to figure out how the 'sap' command works.  The more we can make the code fit seamlessly into the background, the better.  It helps eliminate 'meta talk'; it helps prevent breaking immersion; it helps us tailor our character concepts better; it helps us interact more and role play more.

I'll point everyone to the improving the help files thread here under Player Collaboration!

Zalanthas is big enough that it can fit enough play styles.  If someone doesn't like player interaction, they have something to keep them entertained.  If someone does, they have something to keep them entertained.

Also, yeah.  There are more elves in the bar than PC elves.

PC what now..?

[Miradus]

PC elves. You can recognize when one has just walked into the tavern because suddenly everyone will start closing their sacks, cloaks, pouches, and packs.

[Patuk]

Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

[Fujikoma]

Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

Should pick a clan with scan sometime.  

EDIT: Oh no! My thingymabob is missing! THAT ELF must have done it! *arena sequence unfolds* *a week or two later, with a chuckle, at the bar* Funny thing, Amos, I, got home later and, had left it in my other pants.

[Synthesis]

I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

[Miradus]

Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

I saw one being dragged by some half-giants in Nak. Apparently there's a special place where they keep them and this one had got loose.

[Patuk]

Oh, that's right. I think I saw one of those three years ago or so.

Should pick a clan with scan sometime. 

bruh

[Miradus]

I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

Yeah, it's really not that bad at all. The combat skills may be harder. I've never seen any of those improve but my other survival utility skills go up steadily as I use them as part of the "don't starve" process.

The game is really well-geared towards someone like me who logs on for 30 minutes, plays a bit, then logs off for an hour or two to go do some work.

[Case]

Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

I so wish you could

At the very least you might get a female Armageddon player finding your AIM because you're totally badass and then you start exchanging stories about your badassessnes and the next thing you know you are both living together, you end up with a child, you ask her to be your wife, she says yes and then you live happily ever after.

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

This is why I date non Arm women. If that child comes about, I'll never max backstab again.

[Fujikoma]

I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

That's what I tend to do as well. I mean, I might not have gotten a skill-gain with that single fail, but I just can't be arsed to go digging for more. I might if I'm antsy and needing to hit that branchpoint because shit's getting heavy, but aside from that, I'd, like you, rather be getting sid for the rent, or goofing off. Isn't that how you twink? I look back at when I first started, and you can practically hear the veterans mumbling under their breath, fucking tryhard newb. Hey, I came from hack and slash, PvP, no roleplay enforced, I think I'm doing well considering I never even tried this shit before Arm.

[Malken]

I don't understand why even some veterans seem to think the grind is all-encompassing.

All I ever deliberately plan to do is fail whatever I'm training once per IC day.  Most skills go up really fast like that.  The other ones go up really slowly, regardless of how much you grind them, so I just assume the same rule applies.

I can usually knock out the "grind" portion of my PC's day in like...5 RL minutes.  The rest is just getting 'sid for the rent, or goofing off.  It gets to be a bit of a pain once you get toward the top of the scale, because the failures get a little farther between, but it really isn't -that- big a deal.

It's true that it doesn't seem that bad when you put it that way, but I guess the repetitiveness of it gets you after a while (mind you, that's not a problem in only Armageddon, of course) - extended subguilds definitely help a lot, too, and I think that it's been so long since I've played that I'm probably back to having my 3 spec apps allocation once more, whee!

[Miradus]

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is.

[Fujikoma]

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is.

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first.

[hopeandsorrow]

I've red-shirted a spec app before.

It was glorious moment. 

Though, don't burn through them too fast it's way to easy to change your mind or wish you would of tried X instead repeating Y twice.

[Miradus]

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is.

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first.

What's a YASD?

[Fujikoma]

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is.

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first.

What's a YASD?

Term from players of the Roguelike game Nethack. Stands for Yet Another Stupid Death. (usually avoidable, but everyone screws them all up at least once, if they don't go straight for the spoilers.)

[Miradus]

Ah. Thanks.

I'm a Dwarf Fortress guy, not a Nethack guy.

[evilcabbage]

I've never spec-apped. Is it worth it? I don't tend to live very long as it is.

Skill boosts can be pretty freaking sweet, so can extended subguilds... mmmm, protector or agressor... or berserker...

EDIT: Might want to get most of your YASDs out of the way first.

What's a YASD?

Term from players of the Roguelike game Nethack. Stands for Yet Another Stupid Death. (usually avoidable, but everyone screws them all up at least once, if they don't go straight for the spoilers.)

eat the cabbage of starvation, you stupid dungeon crawler. eat it!

put on the amulet of strangulation you dimwitted lettuce-brained buffoon!

that is nethack for me.

[Kryos]

I believe anyone chewing on this topic should also expand their thinking to consider it a genre problem, as in MUDs, and not just an Armageddon problem.  I've played many, some not rp required, others so, and even some RPIs.  Meta gaming/cheating for character gain happened in them all.  Be it through in game progression means or out of character social cliques.  

And perhaps some factors that may contribute to this behavior.  Namely I would suggest there is a correlation between age and enjoyed gaming behaviors and meta gaming behavior.  Probably there are psychological factors as well, but that is mostly speculative and a bit of a rabbit hole.

And as the subtext presented by others, some times meta gamer types can integrate into RP flawlessly, and other times they stick out like a sore thumb.  I would also suggest, without any proof, that an RPI setting encourages meta gaming behavior (people want to lose far less in a zero sum game) as does the skills format / progression system ARM has been using in the last many years (though pointed out in this very thread to be changing/looked at).  

Also, the use of karma to alleviate some of the initial drudgery by raising skills beyond traditional starting values I can only imagine has had a positive impact on the impetus to 'grind.'  Since this approach also lets one transition from 'another Amos' to 'someone of distinction' but with less of a mountain to climb in order to do so, I hope staff continues to push out methods to polish this some times rough and undesirable portion of the game's experience.

[Inks]

I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

[Kryos]

I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

I more or less agree here:  there is a wide line between filling your role and playing your character (a soldier who trains or a hunter who hunts) and explicit meta gaming.