The Rise of the Metagame

[Jingo]

It's the eighth karma. She is my muse.

[BadSkeelz]

It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

[Miradus]

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

[hopeandsorrow]

It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

I so agree.

[Jingo]

I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

The problem with your analogy Miradus is that city-trained warriors are not using a radically different skillsets or equipment than your mountain man.

Zalanthas doesn't go big into formation fighting (blame magickers). Civilized warfare is done by small units in melee skirmishes or ranged combat. The mountain man might (rightly should) have the advantage in ambushes, archery, and guerrilla tactics. There's no good logical explanation for why he is also better at man-to-man melee combat than someone who has trained for equivalent time, and had the benefit of instruction and better diet.

Better examples could be found in pre-modern engagements, I think.

[Armaddict]

That's the secret. You have to find a way to enjoy the journey.

Heh.  So it's not always emoted out because I'm alone for a lot of it, but I get a lot of chuckles during the 'point A to point B' portion by picturing the complete ineptitude.  That scrappy battle between me and that one fucker chalton...where codewise, it's straightforward, but it just takes way too long and it's a clumsy guy chasing around this vicious, not-vicious creature.  Or the sudden scrambling-away fear of a scrab charging in, knowing that one day my character kill one of those and feel -incredibly- accomplished since that thing is dangerous.  He'll buy drinks, he'll celebrate.  "I took down a fuckin' scrab today, guys!"

That makes it a whole lot more fun, just visualizing all of that.

I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge. Agree/disagree?

Uhm.  I again point out that running theme does not seem to be 'restrict knowledge more'.  There's some alluding to the whole skill-level side, but other than that this discussion appears based on how knowledge is used, not about limiting access to it.  I -did- make a reference to how I think that's why it was subdued in the past, was to prevent this sort of approach to the game becoming prevalent, but in no other point have I seen vets saying 'No, you can't know how that works.'

[Malken]

I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

But that's as much the fault of the game than it is the players'.

If you've had the same small amount of "scary" classes with the same amount of small spells and skills for the last 20 years it's not surprising that most will know what you're capable of.

[Miradus]

It's a shame I'm at work since Oglaf has a prime example of why even Muses prioritize strength.


I feel like a lot of the opposition to wider code/knowledge is coming from older players. I suspect it's because they're afraid that one of the big advantages of Vets - knowing how the code "works" (or at least the belief that they do) - will become obsolete with widespread and accurate knowledge and they're afraid of the competition. Agree/disagree?

I don't like to judge anyone's motives, but in every MUD I've ever played where there's a forum, this same discussion occurs and it's usually for reasons you describe.

The "establishment" does not like having to give up any advantages, even if they are simply perceived advantages.

And while this conversation is fun and fascinating to me, I really do think it's sort of a non-issue. My lack of mastery has not led to diminished enjoyment in the game. I don't lose sleep because some other guy beating up tregils with a wooden stick has a higher number on a skillsheet than I do.

Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

Even if I'm a walking badass who nothing can kill I'm still going to die of old age in about 4-5 RL years. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

[Fujikoma]

I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

I tend to wait until I find out ICly, unless my character's background would somehow give them need to have access to that knowlege. Honestly, I HAVE found out, up close and personal, ICly, with more than one character.

To be quite honest, if they're going to meta-game your magicker powers, they'd probably do it regardless of whether you murdered them and wore their skin like a suit, or one of their AIM buddies told them.

[Miradus]

The problem with your analogy Miradus is that city-trained warriors are not using a radically different skillsets or equipment than your mountain man.

Zalanthas doesn't go big into formation fighting (blame magickers). Civilized warfare is done by small units in melee skirmishes or ranged combat. The mountain man might (rightly should) have the advantage in ambushes, archery, and guerrilla tactics. There's no good logical explanation for why he is also better at man-to-man melee combat than someone who has trained for equivalent time, and had the benefit of instruction and better diet.

Better examples could be found in pre-modern engagements, I think.

Yeah. I don't disagree. It's a code issue. The "combat grid" concept ought to bear more weight than it probably does, but not having seen the code I really don't know how it's weighted now.

Though in the existing code, if someone can ride better than you and shoot you instantly with death arrows from two rooms away ... your day is going to be bad. (I have no basis for that statement other than theorycrafting. I haven't shot anyone in the game.)

[Malken]

Let's say I master everything and I'm the best at everything. I'm the ultimate badass and a walking "I win" button. What does that gain me? Can I go kill the sorcerer king and rule Nak? Can I establish a fortress in the Red Desert and call myself Immortan Joe?

I so wish you could

At the very least you might get a female Armageddon player finding your AIM because you're totally badass and then you start exchanging stories about your badassessnes and the next thing you know you are both living together, you end up with a child, you ask her to be your wife, she says yes and then you live happily ever after.

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

[Jingo]

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

[Miradus]

TRY THAT WITH A SHITTY-STATED CHARACTER

Just be glad in real life that your stats aren't visible to women.

Though technically ... I guess our wisdom is.

[Jingo]

I know that I'm irritated by the way certain magicks have been talked about in ooc channels. Which not only dispels the mystery of Magick but also shares the knowledge of what some of the scarier karma classes are capable of.

Now when -I- play these scary karma classes, I have to be cognizant that players basically already know what I'm capable of.

But that's as much the fault of the game than it is the players'.

If you've had the same small amount of "scary" classes with the same amount of small spells and skills for the last 20 years it's not surprising that most will know what you're capable of.

I didn't know all sorts of things. I've played for over 10 years.

[Fujikoma]

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

American woodsman used Indian tactics and had better aim from providing for their families. The Redcoats were better at fighting in formations and so generally won the engagements that were straight-up fights in open terrain, but they lost the war primarily because of sharpshooters like the Timothy Murphy, the marksman from the frontier who sniped and killed General Fraser at 300 yards.

If a ranger from the wild walks up to a highly skilled warrior and says, "Draw your sword and prepare to fight" then he's probably not going to do so well as that's a fight the veteran warrior was MADE for.

So how'd I do?

It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

Well, consider this, the guy trained with the sword has been swinging it and stabbing with it in an effort to not kill someone primarily, with the exception of the occassional foolish criminal. Meanwhile, Jeb the mountain man has been hacking his scimitar into deadly beasts on a daily basis with the real threat of death around every bend and much more developed experience with his own fight or flight reaction.

[hopeandsorrow]

To be fair, the guy who self taught to feed himself in a place like Zalanthas is going to be pretty bad ass.

This ain't beaver trapping, motherfucking giant spiders man, raptors, bahamets, giant centipedes, and all manner of giant ugly bugs.

[Miradus]

It doesn't really apply. Unit tactics, modern guerrilla warfare and musket formations aren't usually seen in Armageddon. You might make a case for tribal vs city unit warfare though.

I'm talking about the guy trained for 10 years on how to use a sword vs the guy that learned how to feed himself. In Armageddon the latter that wins.

Okay, let me ask this then ...

Has anyone survived dwelling nearly exclusively in the wilderness and fighting mobiles with 430 days played? Has the equivalent accomplishment been managed by a city-fighter who mastered his combat skills in the sparring circle?

Even if I managed to be badass enough to survive every mekillot, bahamet, and venomous crotch-biter and never fail a flee or ride check ... I don't think that I could go 10,320 hours in-game without my link crapping out on me and coming back to a dead character.

So yeah ... if you can survive 10 years in the wilderness as Jim Bridger then I think you deserve the big round of applause for that accomplishment. At least a gold star in your account notes.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, consider this, the guy trained with the sword has been swinging it and stabbing with it in an effort to not kill someone primarily, with the exception of the occassional foolish criminal. Meanwhile, Jeb the mountain man has been hacking his scimitar into deadly beasts on a daily basis with the real threat of death around every bend and much more developed experience with his own fight or flight reaction.

The City armies (or at least their PC components) spend most of their time fighting giant monsters too.

Even though I think the analogy is flawed, I'm going to go back to the American revolution example because it amuses me. The Colonials may have had better aim and wilderness tactics, but they would still get schooled whenever the Redcoats or the Hessians closed in with the bayonet. If we were going to redo the war with Armageddon logic, the British would have had their asses kicked in melee because the Colonials could draw on their years of swinging sticks at racoons.

[Miradus]

To be fair, the guy who self taught to feed himself in a place like Zalanthas is going to be pretty bad ass.

This ain't beaver trapping, motherfucking giant spiders man, raptors, bahamets, giant centipedes, and all manner of giant ugly bugs.

I remember mapping this one area. About 150 rooms and apparently only ONE hostile mob. Of course it was a really nasty one, but the odds were still in my favor.

Of course it walked in and insta-attacked me (which happens only about once in every twenty times a hostile mob walks in) and then I failed a flee and my advanced ride skill failed its check and I fell off my mount. Right in front of the giant, armored people-eater. Welcome to the mantis head.

So I do not mind someone skilling up on Zalanthan rabbits because there's some seriously dangerous shit out there where those rabbits live. Life is not easy outside the walls and you either become badass at combat or running away ... but there are no long-lived, non-badasses outside of the walls.

[nauta]

Um.  So, about the derail: you do know that nessalin pointed out that you have hidden combat skills vs. different kinds of things out there (humanoid, snakes, etc.).  So, in terms of code mechanics, the guy who spends his afternoons with a bushy beard wailing on tregils will be pretty good at killing tregils and the guy who spends his afternoons clean shaven wailing on humans will be pretty good at killing humans.  Which, like, makes sense.

Re the topic: improving the help files so that the coded reality of the game is represented accurately to players is important.  There's nothing worse than breaking immersion to figure out how the 'sap' command works.  The more we can make the code fit seamlessly into the background, the better.  It helps eliminate 'meta talk'; it helps prevent breaking immersion; it helps us tailor our character concepts better; it helps us interact more and role play more.

I'll point everyone to the improving the help files thread here under Player Collaboration!

Zalanthas is big enough that it can fit enough play styles.  If someone doesn't like player interaction, they have something to keep them entertained.  If someone does, they have something to keep them entertained.

Also, yeah.  There are more elves in the bar than PC elves.

[Jingo]

I know it's there. It's a very minor factor as far as I can tell. Your weapon skills and offense/defense scores are also improved by basic huntering. Typically at a much faster rate.

[BadSkeelz]

I know it's there. It's a very minor factor as far as I can tell. Your weapon skills and offense/defense scores are also improved by basic huntering. Typically at a much faster rate.

It also wasn't turned on till a week ago, IIRC the post correctly.

[Beethoven]

Just a couple of the combinations weren't turned on.

[Miradus]

It also wasn't turned on till a week ago, IIRC the post correctly.

So ... progress.

I wish we could see those numbers somewhere. I am a skillsheet person.

I have a script on my client which keeps track of a lot of goofy things. How many melons I've plucked. How many trees I've cut down. How many times I've fled from combat or how many times I've sent an opponent reeling (currently at 2).

I just love statistics. I'm weird that way (and some other ways too).