The Rise of the Metagame

[Riev]

Sure, we have the Listening Ledge. We have people who will open pouch;get coins pouch;close pouch like a boss, and on occasion I generally assume that if there is a method for someone to gain the upperhand, even through twinkery, they will try.


But in all honesty? Sure we're talking about it more, but I think the RP in game has gone way up. The quality of PCs, the things going on (few and far between though they may be). Its not Golden Age or anything, but I think we're at a decent point. If we can be somewhat open about the code, keeping a soft line on a lot of the mechanics, and allow people more freedom to roleplay their character, so much the better.

I mean. Honestly? I wish MORE people adhered to "Lets just get 1-3 fails and move on with more fun stuff". Imagine the amount of time in game better spent socializing, plotting, playing Tek's Tower, chasing elves. Instead of going out and killing creatures because "at least then I'll have something to show for it".

[Fujikoma]

KNIFE FIGHT!!!!

[BadSkeelz]

I don't care if people want to push it to the limit, Imms are pretty sensible with karma and I have no problems with people skilling up hard.

The only meta I don't like is when people ignore the NPC and VNPC population of an area etc. Things we all can agree are poor RP, I have no problem about skill training as long as it is IC.

I more or less agree here:  there is a wide line between filling your role and playing your character (a soldier who trains or a hunter who hunts) and explicit meta gaming.

I don't even consider that metagaming. To me, ignoring the Game World like that is just bad roleplay.

[James de Monet]

There are ways to have your desires -add- to the game rather than become this mindless manipulation of code that detracts from it.

I think there is a lot of merit in this.  And there are ways to mitigate the damage of metagaming if the game actually interests you (and not just "winning" it).  For example, if you feel the need to skillup quickly for some reason, as others have suggested, you can make that part of your character.  Put it in their background that they come from a legacy of skilled warriors.  Give them a spice habit and say it's because of the drugs.  Make them carry around a crystal, and make them be convinced that it gives them special powers.

Why?  Because what this does is take their unexplained mastery/superiority, and turn it into something explained.  You can't RP with plot holes.  But character quirks?  More story for the riffing.


Also, it might bear pointing out that this thread wasn't exactly about people doing metagame-y things.  It was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.  (The fact that the talking part is happening in fairly high concentrations in this thread is just sweet irony.). The question of twinked PCs rendering non-twinked PCs irrelevant is sort of separate.  I'm not sure it's actually happening.  I don't know that I've actually witnessed it, but I've seen things that smell like it, and it makes me concerned, that's all.

[Armaddict]

It was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

[Dalmeth]

I'd say the major problem is the campaign against metagaming encourages metagaming.

If people can't metagame in an easily roleplayed fashion, they're going to do it some other way because they want to better their character.  Kinda dumb to tell them not to.

Roleplaying should make a general style of play easier.  Last time I played, roleplay only made things much harder.

[Inks]

It was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

I agree, or an elf that just spam hides everywhere.

[Fujikoma]

It was about people talking about metagame-y things like they were common knowledge and accepted practice, both of which they frequently aren't.

Again.  I'm okay with people having information.  I'm not okay with it being used to make piss-poor OOC excuses to do things that are just jarring to the IC world.  It actually all gets fixed by building a real character that does things, rather than dwarf #1000 with the 'Get awesome at fighting' focus.

I agree, or an elf that just spam hides everywhere.

Hey now, is there any other way to survive as an elf, well, besides leaving THAT city?

[Fujikoma]

I mean, just about EVERYONE can love your sharp-eared ass to death, but the second Lord Fuzzybottoms misplaces his favorite sword, expect some shit.

[Rokal]

As a pretty new player, I voted that more information should be more readily avaible about the game mechanics.

No, it shouldn't be used in ways that make the IC world jarring, iv'e seen such things before that just make me face-palm.

The thing is though, this is a game, and IMO, people shouldn't have to become 'veterans' to have a better understanding of how the game works.

It creates an unfair advantage. thats simply what i think.

I've no real comments about metagaming, as I think the  proper word for how metagaming is mentioned in this topic is more meta-playing, or playing the game mechanics to max effect, AKA powergaming.

[Desertman]

Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

[Miradus]

Veterans may have an advantage, but the upside is that it doesn't take long to discover this world if you get out there and do it.

I'm in the sweet spot right now. I've mapped over 4500 rooms but I'm still discovering new things. I will be sad the day I've mapped the last room.

[Desertman]

Veterans may have an advantage, but the upside is that it doesn't take long to discover this world if you get out there and do it.

I'm in the sweet spot right now. I've mapped over 4500 rooms but I'm still discovering new things. I will be sad the day I've mapped the last room.

I still discover new things fairly regularly.

There are several parts of the world I know exist that I have never gone to. I could if I wanted to, but I intentionally don't because I want to have an IC reason take me there one day and then I can learn the area in the game.

I have never explored the silt sea. I've never even been on a skimmer. Ever. I do not intend to until IC events take me there.

I've never explored super far west or east either. No reason to in my entire Arm career.

There are a lot of things I don't know about this game and I find myself lucky in this regard.

This includes coded aspects of the game I have no idea about.

I prefer to keep it that way.

Every time you figure something new out, you lose a little bit of the magic.

At first you want to know everything. After a couple of decades though you will wish you could go back to knowing nothing.

You miss the knowing nothing because back when you knew nothing anything was possible in your mind.

Those were the good times.

[hopeandsorrow]

Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

Bit Hyperbolic I think.

No one's asking about handing out participation trophies but it be nice to know for example, that Dual wield branches parry traditionally on a Ranger instead of wasting months of play time doing two hand only to find out you have to send a request.

That info wasn't readily available before, it is now.

How many newbies mistakenly bought a crossbow in Chargen shops just to find out Bolts/arrows are expensive, and it will be at least a few days played before it's even worth while to bother investing in archery.   No big sign (Get a sling nub). 

[Desertman]

Until a map of the entire world is made readily available with exact locations in regards to where everything is at and guides on a wiki about the best way to do everything...veterans will always have an advantage.

There are thousands of games out there in fact that give exactly this information.

They have their own wiki's with step-by-step guides in how to do everything to ensure you always win.

Anything that advances Armageddon even remotely in the direction of "stock games" gets a thumbs down from me.

At what point do we stop, "Handing out participation trophies."?

Who decides when too much is too much?

I prefer the age old rule we have in place. It has worked really well for a long time.

Find out IC.

Bit Hyperbolic I think.

No one's asking about handing out participation trophies but it be nice to know for example, that Dual wield branches parry traditionally on a Ranger instead of wasting months of play time doing two hand only to find out you have to send a request.

That info wasn't readily available before, it is now.

How many newbies mistakenly bought a crossbow in Chargen shops just to find out Bolts/arrows are expensive, and it will be at least a few days players before it's even worth while to bother investing in archery.  

The participation trophy comment was intended to be taken as a metaphor.

I do not mean I think staff mails out small metal trophies to new players to their home addresses. I'm aware they do not.

The game shouldn't be made easier for new players. It's already many times easier for new players than when I started.

If buying a crossbow in the game and finding out bolts are expensive is enough to make them quit the game I call that the process of elimination and proper natural selection. If something that small makes them leave, then I say we just culled the herd for the better.

[hopeandsorrow]

Well  I agree if some one rage quiet over crossbow bolts would make good, cause that person is silly.

Mainly a matter of convenience in this foul year of our lord twenty sixteen.   Having a firm idea of how to approach the game, how to approach the code might facilitate some one to be more drawn on the RP aspects. Instead of doing what I did at first, Redshirting my way to knowledge, testing the knowledge that's now publicly available.

Even then I'm pretty unsure about what certain things do, but I feel it is sufficient enough to achieve a small part of my Armageddon Mud Bucket List.

[Miradus]

I would like to complain that bolts ARE too expensive.

This tregil just cost me approximately 148 sid to bring down.

Wouldn't be so bad if so many bolts weren't destroyed in the shooting. I hope the rate of ammo consumption declines with skill increases.

My biggest complaint about the game right now is just a problem of game/player mechanics. I can come up with a character concept in about 5 minutes. However to get into the roleplay of that character's speech patterns and style takes me about a week. Just about the time when something unfortunate happens.

I really haven't ran into many of the problems described on the forum. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even posting on the same game that I'm playing.

[Lizzie]

Desertman makes the point that describes exactly how I feel. There's a steep learning curve - or there used to be. It existed to keep the people who just wanted the end-game out, and people who wanted the journey in. Sadly, lots of the "answers" are available readily to just anyone, even if they've never played yet. They don't have to even *try* to find out IC. Some won't bother trying, because they don't give a shit about the journey. They just want the end game and will treat Arm as nothing more than a hack-n-slash with roleplaying encouraged.

[Desertman]

I would like to complain that bolts ARE too expensive.

This tregil just cost me approximately 148 sid to bring down.

Wouldn't be so bad if so many bolts weren't destroyed in the shooting. I hope the rate of ammo consumption declines with skill increases.

There are better avenues in the game for hunting tregils and small game.

I highly recommend rolling up a character who wants to be a hunter and then finding another hunter in game to teach you how to hunt.

A) It is the best way to find out how to do things.
B) People like teaching other people.
C) It is infinitely more rewarding and fun for all parties involves than finding out on the GDB.

[BadSkeelz]

Old players just scared cause old doesn't mean as much anymore.

[hopeandsorrow]

Old players just scared cause old doesn't mean as much anymore.

+1

B) People like teaching other people.

LOL so not my experience.

[RogueGunslinger]

There are some things that don't make a lick of sense to find out IC. Other things, the only way to find out IC is to grind repeatedly over and over again. I've never really found that to be rewarding. I'm all for most code knowledge being easily accessible.

Some things I prefer to be mystery though. For instance, the new spell-lists for sorcerers. The thing is I can still keep whatever mystery I want to keep. I get to pick and choose because I have access. That's a good thing, imo.

[BadSkeelz]

There are some things that don't make a lick of sense to find out IC. Other things, the only way to find out IC is to grind repeatedly over and over again. I've never really found that to be rewarding. I'm all for most code knowledge being easily accessible.

Some things I prefer to be mystery though. For instance, the new spell-lists for sorcerers. The thing is I can still keep whatever mystery I want to keep. I get to pick and choose because I have access. That's a good thing, imo.

Agreed.

You can teach someone how to make and use a spear in-character. I don't think anyone would for a moment consider telling them "If you're a ranger, you need to appeal to the spirits to be able to parry with this weapon, but only once you've mastered using it with both hands."

[BadSkeelz]

lerning curve gud

Who would you rather try out Armageddon: a roleplayer who finds the code insufficiently documented to a point that it's impacting their ability and desire to play ; or someone who can quickly pick-up how the code works and may even be able to play it extremely well, but doesn't roleplay worth a damn?

I'm not convinced by this "Code Learning Curve is Good" argument. Good Roleplaying != Good Code Playing. I believe you're more likely to lose roleplayers who become disenchanted and frustrated with the code, and their inability to play the characters that they want to play, than you are code players who become disenchanted and frustrated with all these people roleplaying at them.

[Miradus]

Whenever I want to know something about (for example) the hunter class, I do a search on the forum for hunter and then sort through the bitching and carping for the nuggets of real info.

I have conversed a little with other players in game and received some in-game info, but not a lot. My tendency towards exploration has not led me to a lot of relationships with other characters. I know other players are out where I roam around because I see the crap they leave on the ground but I haven't actually ran into any of them. (Which may be a good thing.)