From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)
Quote
-Changes to subguilds
--General Crafter removed, characters with 'General Crafter' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Clayworker removed, characters with 'Clayworker' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Stonecrafter removed, characters with 'Stonecrafter' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Acrobat removed, characters with 'Acrobat' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Rebel removed, characters with 'Rebel' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Tinker removed, characters with 'Tinker' will be converted to 'Jeweler'
-New Subguilds added
--Gladiator
--Bounty Hunter
--Minstrel
-Sorcerer subguilds have had their number of spells roughly doubled.
Subguild page is here (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Subguilds) and has them. Furthermore, I looked at those subguilds earlier today (before the reboot) and I swear they did not have the skills and max skill level they grant explicitly stated. They all now do (except those that are being retired).
I'm happy to hear that sorcerers have been boosted. I understand that they were too powerful as they were and that by toning down their magickal spells and giving them a full fledged guild they were made less powerful but much more survivable. However I'm glad to see they're being monitored and regularly updated as a result of how they're being played and feedback they receive. Doubling the spells they get may still not be enough. Or it might be too much. Either way, I'm pretty happy with them getting reviewed on a regular basis.
I love the flavour of the new guilds. I really hope they help inspire people and open up new character concepts. Already I wish one of them had been available when I last app'd a character. I was confused with Minstrel until I saw it was an extended subguild.
I'm of two minds about the skill levels being listed. It's most certainly helpful. But it's
different.
I have some extended patch notes I wrote for this release and will post them into this thread when I get home from work. Until then I can answer some questions in this thread.
edit: Here they are:
Hello and welcome to the release notes for Subguild Rennovations!
Our motivations behind these changes were:
~ Taking on-board feedback on extended subguilds we'd received over the last few years and couple it with how we'd seen these new additions perform.
~ We also wanted to knock the dust off of our 0 karma subguilds - which have remained almost entirely unchanged for perhaps a decade (not taking into account the addition of 'direction sense' as a skill. We wanted to canvas for feedback on these classic subguilds and also take a look at the reality of how often certain subguilds were selected in the game to help make each subguild more appealing to players.
~ Finally, we wanted to inject a clearer sense of subguilds providing characters with an immediate sub-role in the in-game world, leaving gradual development to their main guild.
Of these, the third was the easiest to achieve - we've doubled the starting skill of most skills in every subguild. This means your PC will be a little more competent at this minor aspect of their concept from the get go.
The second goal was much more difficult and required us to take on board what exactly players disliked about existing subguilds. We found that those subguilds with low thematic appeal and narrow skillsets received the least attention - except where the skills involved fed directly into highly valued, code-intensive parts of the game (such as combat).
Not wanting to over-emphasise any particular way of playing Armageddon, we thus chose to double-down on broadening the utility of less popular subguilds and adding new, thematic options to offer new alternatives to selecting what were already popular choices.
We also took the decision to remove a selection of subguilds from the game. These were subguilds that polls to the player base showed as having little appeal - we found that these polls backed up data we collected from our PC records. Instead of simply just removing these subguilds though, we chose to take their various elements and distribute them to other subguilds, thus keeping their skills in circulation.
With all this said, let's get into an analysis of the changes:
~ Added Gladiator
~ Added Bounty Hunter
These two subguilds are efforts to produce new options for players who find their play style revolves around a very narrow collection of subguilds. Subguild Gladiator offers new choices to less combat-orientated guilds without the need to spend karma on an extended subguild. Bounty Hunter, while not introducing anything new into the pool of skills available from subguilds, does offer a solid thematic base in the vein of Mercenary and Nomad which ties firmly with its collection of skills.
~ Removed Clayworker (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Removed Stonecrafter (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Renamed 'General Crafter' to Crafter
The first of the subguild removals were removed because of the very narrow selection of skills they offered. We decided that when picking a subguild, a player's choice should offer them more than a single experience in the game world - either through the variety of skills offered or the IC niches that a subguild might be able to occupy. Stonecrafters and Clayworkers failed on both counts – they had a single craft skill that focused on decorative objects and the skills surrounding this craft skill didn't offer much in terms of game experience. While we were considering what to do with these subguilds we noticed that the General Crafter subguild was on the chopping block because of player feedback. It seemed like a natural solution to combine these three subguilds into a single subguild that allows players to forage and make a variety of objects from the things they find. Perhaps unlikely to become a massive favourite - we have given those players that pick this subguild more options all-round.
~ Removed Tinker
~ Removed Acrobat
These subguilds were polled as being unpopular and the data supported this assessment. They suffered from narrow skill selection - especially in the case of Tinker, whose craft skill had little use on its own. In order to support our push towards crafts requiring more tools we've chosen to give tool making to a variety of other subguilds so these PCs can make basic tools of their trade. Climb is a skill that is much in demand and, given that Acrobat was one of the few subguilds that granted it, we've also given climb to one or two other subguilds.
~ Removed Scavenger
Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.
~ Renamed 'Rebel' to 'Outlaw'
The GDB has spoken. Rebels have received climb and a new name.
~ Added Minstrel
We've added a new extended subguild which possesses instrument making to the level of master and builds upon the skills in the bard subguild. While 'Majordomo' offered a selection of skills for aides, we felt that another 'social' subguild option would appeal to the players of city-slicker PCs or wandering gossips.
~ Made all skills starting level at least apprentice.
As mentioned above, this makes PCs require much less development to do the things their subguild lets them do.
~ Re-written all 0 karma subguild helpfiles.
We've gone through each subguild and have produced a new introduction that clearly describes each skill that subguild possesses. Each helpfile also contains a clear list of the skills and the levels to which the subguild can learn said skill to. This re-write began part-way through the rennovations in order to bring the 0 karma help files in line with the help files of extended subguilds. In response to player feedback we also added a clear, direct skill and skill level list.
Specific Skill Changes:
What follows is the list of each skill adjustment:
Archer:
~ Now has dyeing and direction sense.
Armormaker:
~ Now has tool making.
Bard:
~ Now has instrument making.
Con Artist:
~ Now has hide.
Forester:
~ Now has axe making.
General Crafter:
~ Now called Crafter.
~ Has lost: dyeing, tanning and rope making.
~ Now has clayworking, stoneworking and forage.
House Servant:
~ Now has hide.
Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.
Jeweler:
~ Now has tool making and haggle.
Physician:
~ Now has floristry and forage.
Rebel:
~ Now called Outlaw.
~ Now has climb.
Tailor:
~ Now has tool making.
Thief:
~ Now has hide.
Thug:
~ Now has bash.
Weaponscrafter:
~ Now has tool making
Apothecary:
~ Now has master floristry instead of brew.
Cutpurse:
~ Now has sneak and sap.
Rogue:
~ Have lost: peek and steal.
~ Now have climb and watch.
~ Now begin play with pick.
~ Adjusted how some skills branch.
The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.
I'm excited about the Minstrel extended sub. Instrument crafting!
Now that we have the ranks I do find the "value" of certain extended subguilds is certainly interesting. For example Apothecary vs Phyisican:
* Apothecaries do not start with brew, physicians do.
* Apothecaries can mastercraft bandages, splints and poultices, physicians cannot.
* Apparently physicians get floristry while apothecaries do not? (Typo?)
This is the sole difference between them. So unless you really wanted to be creating new poultices and such (and hey, some character concepts WILL want to) you're always better off taking the physician subguild and saving your 1-3 points of GCP (I believe currently all extended subguilds are 3 GCP).
Quote from: John on February 15, 2016, 10:10:40 AM
Now that we have the ranks I do find the "value" of certain extended subguilds is certainly interesting. For example Apothecary vs Phyisican:
* Apothecaries do not start with brew, physicians do.
* Apothecaries can mastercraft bandages, splints and poultices, physicians cannot.
* Apparently physicians get floristry while apothecaries do not? (Typo?)
This is the sole difference between them. So unless you really wanted to be creating new poultices and such (and hey, some character concepts WILL want to) you're always better off taking the physician subguild and saving your 1-3 points of GCP (I believe currently all extended subguilds are 3 GCP).
This is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.
Also, it seems like there were some additions to the basic subguilds that weren't initially there.
I logged in checked skills and boom there are three extra skills that match up to my existing subguild.
So that's cool!
Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 10:15:35 AMThis is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.
Newbie question time: What does floristry have to do with apocathery? Feel free to tell me "find out IC". But in game mechanics, is this related to brewing tablets? If so, does this mean apothecarists can effectively create new tablets? What about other things that are brewed?
I still don't get why the skill levels for the skills are spelled out. That's a bit too meta-gamely for me.
Quote from: Asmoth on February 15, 2016, 09:53:46 AM
The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.
The helpfiles are updated now.
Quote from: Patuk on February 15, 2016, 10:24:52 AM
Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?
No.
Quote from: Barsook on February 15, 2016, 10:27:54 AM
I still don't get why the skill levels for the skills are spelled out. That's a bit too meta-gamely for me.
I like the change, transparency of code is a good thing. Now I know to stop trying to master this one skill I was trying to master from character inception, because it's impossible.
Plus, it's been proven before that sometimes you can request X and Y, for X and Y reasons so I would assume that nothing is TOTALLY off the table.
Good point....
I think I'd cum in my pants if they did the same thing in regards to GUILD (Minus karma ones I suppose).
But hey, baby steps.
While I like this.
I am going to hate seeing, "Crap, I don't think I'm going to be getting any better at this."
I hate it IRL too, though... so. Eh.
The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)
Quote from: John on February 15, 2016, 10:26:55 AM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 10:15:35 AMThis is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.
Newbie question time: What does floristry have to do with apocathery? Feel free to tell me "find out IC". But in game mechanics, is this related to brewing tablets? If so, does this mean apothecarists can effectively create new tablets? What about other things that are brewed?
I know this is a terrible answer - but this is an ongoing change that we're not 100% ready to reveal now. We're looking at the floristry skill and how it relates to herbs and their preparation in the same way the skill currently handles preparing flowers and the like. How this will eventually mesh into the current brew code is currently under debate. Watch this space.
I am kinda sad about scavenger, alot of people liked that subguild.
However, don't think that will be too much of a problem considering the changes to thief! And the addition of gladiator. Wow.
What an adaptible and awesome set of updates!!! Thanks so much for listening to your players' feedback about subguilds! COMPLETE AND UTTER APPROVAL HAS BEEN GAINED.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 10:41:14 AM
The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)
I've gone through the deprecated subguild help-files and added a note to them, indicating that they are no longer available as choices. Not sure whether to leave them for posterity or delete them yet.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 10:43:50 AMI know this is a terrible answer
Not at all. We all know how the current code works (AFAIK the brew code has always been considered to be in a "beta" state and was always planning on getting revamped. This is relying on rather faulty memories though from 10 years ago). If you guys are improving how it works, then great news for us when it does eventually get into the game. In the interim, physicians and apocatheries just got a new skill show up in their list :)
Quote from: Nergal on February 15, 2016, 10:33:09 AM
Quote from: Patuk on February 15, 2016, 10:24:52 AM
Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?
No.
This is probably one of the only sad notes about this, but it's not hard to app a grebber and grebbers are awesome as hell.
Quote from: Chettaman on February 15, 2016, 10:40:00 AM
While I like this.
I am going to hate seeing, "Crap, I don't think I'm going to be getting any better at this."
I hate it IRL too, though... so. Eh.
While we always had a hunch that players generally wanted more information to build their characters into something they'd like to play from the start, this thread really confirmed it for us:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50327.0/viewResults.html
A plurality voted for maximum exposure, but almost everyone wanted to see some additional information. We felt going all the way was better than arbitrarily leaving some things to speculation.
I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?
Quote from: Nergal on February 15, 2016, 10:46:20 AM
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 10:41:14 AM
The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)
I've gone through the deprecated subguild help-files and added a note to them, indicating that they are no longer available as choices. Not sure whether to leave them for posterity or delete them yet.
I'd suggest at best update the MOTD and then delete them. It's not like old players returning don't know to ask "what's changed since I was here last" given (especially of late) how much this game changes.
Here's an archive (http://web.archive.org/web/20130422185029/http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Subguild) for those feeling nostalgic.
Coming from someone who has apped _nothing_ but scavenger for their subguild for years, I think its more realistic now that its gone. "Oh hi I'm a witch who never goes outside except to greb for roots and water." That's kind of weird.
Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2016, 10:49:30 AM
I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?
Yes, people with 1/2/8 karma will see the appropriate subguilds available as options for their PC.
I've updated the karma options helpfile:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on February 15, 2016, 10:54:58 AM
Coming from someone who has apped _nothing_ but scavenger for their subguild for years, I think its more realistic now that its gone. "Oh hi I'm a witch who never goes outside except to greb for roots and water." That's kind of weird.
That is a PERFECT reason to go outside and greb sir!
Food and Water are what you require to live, there is nothing better to greb for.
I meant that they wouldn't have had the know-all for to go looking for it in the first place, for pcs that are otherwise entirely city-bound.
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.
From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)
Quote
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
RIP rogue Magickers 2016.
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:09:55 AM
From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)Quote
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
RIP rogue Magickers 2016.
Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.
Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?
Quote from: Nergal on February 15, 2016, 10:57:28 AM
Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2016, 10:49:30 AM
I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?
Yes, people with 1/2/8 karma will see the appropriate subguilds available as options for their PC.
I've updated the karma options helpfile:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options
COOL!
Let me ask a few more questions to understand what this will this mean though. Will I be able to roll my ranger/protector human without making a special extended guild application if I have the karma? Will I only need to app for skill boosts now? If so, does CGP system still come in effect? As in, if I''m choosing a ranger/protector and I have two karma, will i be allowed 3 additional skill bumps, or 5 skill bumps now?
Thanks for all the work!
Quote from: Malken on February 15, 2016, 11:11:58 AM
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:09:55 AM
From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)Quote
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
RIP rogue Magickers 2016.
Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??
Why would I wanna give up climb?
Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.
Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?
Yes, sorry - this is what I meant.
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.
Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?
Quote from: help assassinHaving mastered the basic skills, an assassin will often begin to learn a mastery of parrying enemy attacks, as well as how to more easily get out of combat.
Have I mentioned how awesome these changes are? These changes are pretty damn awesome.
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Malken on February 15, 2016, 11:11:58 AM
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:09:55 AM
From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)Quote
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
RIP rogue Magickers 2016.
Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??
Why would I wanna give up climb?
Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.
Only a certain type thrives there due to things.
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Malken on February 15, 2016, 11:11:58 AM
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 11:09:55 AM
From the Release Notes for today (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg927849.html#msg927849)Quote
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
RIP rogue Magickers 2016.
Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??
Why would I wanna give up climb?
Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.
Just use the grebber extended subguild and stop being such a noob and dying so often.
Yeah floristry!
FYI "Rogue" states that it requires 3 CGP but it is in the "1 Karma" category. There might be others.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options
I have a question on 'karma restricted': If you have, say, 1 karma, does that mean you can't choose Master Tailor at all, or half-giant at all? I always thought even if you had 0 karma you could still 'purchase' (and thus play) half-giant for 3CGP and Master Tailor for (now) 2 CGP.
While just an issue of presentation and semantics:
At least for me, it'd be less confusing all around if everything were converted into CGP instead of Karma. Here's why: I have a karma level of, let's say, 3. Just prima facie, it looks as if I could then play a half-giant apothecarist, since both of those are below or at karma 3.
That, or change it to 'karma points', and everyone starts out with '3 karma points' they can spend and as you gain trust you gain karma points.
Sorry, I know that's a bit of a side topic.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
Quote from: Asanadas on February 15, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.
Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.
The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.
Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?
Yes, sorry - this is what I meant.
Excellent, this makes much more sense. Thanks!
Deleted.
might wanna update the forage helpfile. It still says scavengers can forage for food.
I still feel like guard needs ride, or a weapon skill like gladiator or low level parry.
But holy shit, now hunters get ride. Sneaky guilds rejoice.
Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2016, 10:49:30 AM
I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now.
Cutpurse's helpfile also doesn't have the skill info in it.
Quote from: nauta
FYI "Rogue" states that it requires 3 CGP but it is in the "1 Karma" category. There might be others.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options
Ditto for Cutpurse.
Something to keep in mind is that the subguilds are the flavor and addition. We put in some time to update them for the more 'modern' game, we also looked at overall balance as previously subguilds were just stubbed in on whim and with no plan. They are meant to complement guilds, but not replace them. We are about to embark on a much larger scale change to the guilds overall. As we speak I'm putting together the base outline will be kickstarting this part of the project into gear. We will be looking at guilds to ensure that what we might consider 'base level' skills are part of the main guild function, and not something that you need to stub in at subguild level.
A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.
If I could have one wish fulfilled for the future overhaul of the guild system that Adhira is promising, it would be for all guilds that get parry to actually begin with it. Having to master the most difficult fighting style in order to finally learn the most basic combat maneuver is both mindblowingly unrealistic and awful for playability, and it hugely inflates the extended subguild that grants parry from the start, allowing rangers and assassins to bypass literally months of grinding.
Quote from: Warsong on February 15, 2016, 12:22:53 PM
If I could have one wish fulfilled for the future overhaul of the guild system that Adhira is promising, it would be for all guilds that get parry to actually begin with it. Having to master the most difficult fighting style in order to finally learn the most basic combat maneuver is both mindblowingly unrealistic and awful for playability, and it hugely inflates the extended subguild that grants parry from the start, allowing rangers and assassins to bypass literally months of grinding.
I'll be creating a thread later on where I'll be collecting suggestions and ideas. Hang tight for that one!
I think you've honestly succeeded in making some very awesome sub-guilds here that add a wonderful level of depth and coolness to the experience. For example, I can see it being a hard choice between assassin/hunter, assassin/gladiator, and assassin/tailor. All really have cool dimension of actual role play beyond just the skills they offer because it allows you to the same guild in vastly different ways. The same can now be said about merchant/gladiator or merchant/hunter, and many other guilds now thanks to these changes. It is not to say it wasn't like this before but to a much lesser degree in my opinion.
So in that sense, kudos and great work. I really look forward to seeing the guild changes but at the moment I have no doubt the staff will succeed as they've done here.
I don't really have anything constructive to add; I just wanted to say that I think these changes are very cool.
With all the changes that have gone into the game since I last had a character, I'm inching closer and closer to making one, again.
Maybe when life settles a bit.
There is no sub-guild I can see that masters Lumberjacking/Woodworking.
Just a footnote really.
I like these changes.
Quote from: Adhira on February 15, 2016, 12:16:29 PM
A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.
I just want to confirm confirm what this will mean for skill bumps. I am guessing if you want skill bumps and/or a karma subguild now, they will still be handled through the CGP and special app method? For example if I have two karma and want to play a ranger/protector, I can still have 2 or 3 skill bumps through the special app system?
Man, it's not April 1st...
I'm in love with this!
OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I love it.
I love it so much.
I love being able to see what abilities you can get and learn.
I love seeing how high they can go.
I love being able to plan out characters more in depth
Quote from: Adhira on February 15, 2016, 12:16:29 PM
A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.
Yay!!!!!!!
Does this mean we're doing away with the (not yet implemented) cgp system?
Hello and welcome to the release notes for Subguild Rennovations!
Our motivations behind these changes were:
~ Taking on-board feedback on extended subguilds we'd received over the last few years and couple it with how we'd seen these new additions perform.
~ We also wanted to knock the dust off of our 0 karma subguilds - which have remained almost entirely unchanged for perhaps a decade (not taking into account the addition of 'direction sense' as a skill. We wanted to canvas for feedback on these classic subguilds and also take a look at the reality of how often certain subguilds were selected in the game to help make each subguild more appealing to players.
~ Finally, we wanted to inject a clearer sense of subguilds providing characters with an immediate sub-role in the in-game world, leaving gradual development to their main guild.
Of these, the third was the easiest to achieve - we've doubled the starting skill of most skills in every subguild. This means your PC will be a little more competent at this minor aspect of their concept from the get go.
The second goal was much more difficult and required us to take on board what exactly players disliked about existing subguilds. We found that those subguilds with low thematic appeal and narrow skillsets received the least attention - except where the skills involved fed directly into highly valued, code-intensive parts of the game (such as combat).
Not wanting to over-emphasise any particular way of playing Armageddon, we thus chose to double-down on broadening the utility of less popular subguilds and adding new, thematic options to offer new alternatives to selecting what were already popular choices.
We also took the decision to remove a selection of subguilds from the game. These were subguilds that polls to the player base showed as having little appeal - we found that these polls backed up data we collected from our PC records. Instead of simply just removing these subguilds though, we chose to take their various elements and distribute them to other subguilds, thus keeping their skills in circulation.
With all this said, let's get into an analysis of the changes:
~ Added Gladiator
~ Added Bounty Hunter
These two subguilds are efforts to produce new options for players who find their play style revolves around a very narrow collection of subguilds. Subguild Gladiator offers new choices to less combat-orientated guilds without the need to spend karma on an extended subguild. Bounty Hunter, while not introducing anything new into the pool of skills available from subguilds, does offer a solid thematic base in the vein of Mercenary and Nomad which ties firmly with its collection of skills.
~ Removed Clayworker (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Removed Stonecrafter (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Renamed 'General Crafter' to Crafter
The first of the subguild removals were removed because of the very narrow selection of skills they offered. We decided that when picking a subguild, a player's choice should offer them more than a single experience in the game world - either through the variety of skills offered or the IC niches that a subguild might be able to occupy. Stonecrafters and Clayworkers failed on both counts – they had a single craft skill that focused on decorative objects and the skills surrounding this craft skill didn't offer much in terms of game experience. While we were considering what to do with these subguilds we noticed that the General Crafter subguild was on the chopping block because of player feedback. It seemed like a natural solution to combine these three subguilds into a single subguild that allows players to forage and make a variety of objects from the things they find. Perhaps unlikely to become a massive favourite - we have given those players that pick this subguild more options all-round.
~ Removed Tinker
~ Removed Acrobat
These subguilds were polled as being unpopular and the data supported this assessment. They suffered from narrow skill selection - especially in the case of Tinker, whose craft skill had little use on its own. In order to support our push towards crafts requiring more tools we've chosen to give tool making to a variety of other subguilds so these PCs can make basic tools of their trade. Climb is a skill that is much in demand and, given that Acrobat was one of the few subguilds that granted it, we've also given climb to one or two other subguilds.
~ Removed Scavenger
Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.
~ Renamed 'Rebel' to 'Outlaw'
The GDB has spoken. Rebels have received climb and a new name.
~ Added Minstrel
We've added a new extended subguild which possesses instrument making to the level of master and builds upon the skills in the bard subguild. While 'Majordomo' offered a selection of skills for aides, we felt that another 'social' subguild option would appeal to the players of city-slicker PCs or wandering gossips.
~ Made all skills starting level at least apprentice.
As mentioned above, this makes PCs require much less development to do the things their subguild lets them do.
~ Re-written all 0 karma subguild helpfiles.
We've gone through each subguild and have produced a new introduction that clearly describes each skill that subguild possesses. Each helpfile also contains a clear list of the skills and the levels to which the subguild can learn said skill to. This re-write began part-way through the rennovations in order to bring the 0 karma help files in line with the help files of extended subguilds. In response to player feedback we also added a clear, direct skill and skill level list.
Specific Skill Changes:
What follows is the list of each skill adjustment:
Archer:
~ Now has dyeing and direction sense.
Armormaker:
~ Now has tool making.
Bard:
~ Now has instrument making.
Con Artist:
~ Now has hide.
Forester:
~ Now has axe making.
General Crafter:
~ Now called Crafter.
~ Has lost: dyeing, tanning and rope making.
~ Now has clayworking, stoneworking and forage.
House Servant:
~ Now has hide.
Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.
Jeweler:
~ Now has tool making and haggle.
Physician:
~ Now has floristry and forage.
Rebel:
~ Now called Outlaw.
~ Now has climb.
Tailor:
~ Now has tool making.
Thief:
~ Now has hide.
Thug:
~ Now has bash.
Weaponscrafter:
~ Now has tool making
Apothecary:
~ Now has master floristry instead of brew.
Cutpurse:
~ Now has sneak and sap.
Rogue:
~ Have lost: peek and steal.
~ Now have climb and watch.
~ Now begin play with pick.
~ Adjusted how some skills branch.
So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?
Thief:
~ Now has hide.
Oh baby
Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.
Hunter is terrible now.
Do people who already have hunter lose wilderness sneak then?
Do people who have thief and shit gain hide?
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?
No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?
No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.
... so everybody can get to jman watch?
I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?
No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.
... so everybody can get to jman watch?
That is not how ride is handled - so no.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:03:45 PM
I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.
Flee is a big deal.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:03:45 PM
I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.
No subguild gives flee anymore because the level of flee the subguild gave made it useless except for certain specific cases. The flee skill is something we're going to look at when we come to main guild renovations.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 02:05:43 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?
No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.
... so everybody can get to jman watch?
That is not how ride is handled - so no.
ah ok cool :)
OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD
Why couldn't I just wait a day to make a new PC.
Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful. I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level. I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 02:11:18 PM
ah ok cool :)
Okay now explain it to me, because I too thought most if not all guilds got at least journeyman ride and watch, with some getting higher. I only ever got journeyman watch on long lived warrior, while every other character since then has had novice because i rarely have anything worth watching i guess. Not really sure what the difference is I guess, more functionality?
I guess with new sub-guilds getting watch I will have to try it out more and see which sub-guilds get hands-free watch. :-[
Quote from: Rathustra on February 15, 2016, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:03:45 PM
I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.
No subguild gives flee anymore because the level of flee the subguild gave made it useless except for certain specific cases. The flee skill is something we're going to look at when we come to main guild renovations.
Novice flee is incredibly useful for guilds that do not normally have flee.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:14:42 PM
Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful. I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level. I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.
This is one of the skills that we determined fits better in as a base skill for all.
Quote from: Adhira on February 15, 2016, 02:23:08 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:14:42 PM
Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful. I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level. I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.
This is one of the skills that we determined fits better in as a base skill for all.
I definitely agree with that!!!
Quote from: Adhira on February 15, 2016, 02:23:08 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 02:14:42 PM
Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful. I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level. I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.
This is one of the skills that we determined fits better in as a base skill for all.
I told you guys that back when you put in the flee changes. *huff*
;D
Wait did we just lose the ability to dual stealth a Ranger with out an extended sub?
As well, we can't select thief and skip the gouge my eyes out listen grind?
Love the changes!
One question, what happened to the search skill? It was one of my favorites from scavenger and isn't represented anywhere on the new subguilds.
I guess this helpfile answers my question, along with the new CGP values.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Bumps (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Bumps)
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
Wait did we just lose the ability to dual stealth a Ranger with out an extended sub?
As well, we can't select thief and skip the gouge my eyes out listen grind?
Quote from: Thief helpfile
Thieves are petty criminals with clever hands. Able to conceal themselves in crowds and approach their marks unnoticed, they can both pick the pockets of their mark and perform the sleight of hand required to secrete their ill-gotten gains. Always on the lookout for their next mark, thieves have an eye for spotting choice targets on other people's persons.
Thieves are able to reach the level of advanced in sleight of hand. They can also attain the level of journeyman in sneak, steal, peek and hide.
Quote from: JackGibbons on February 15, 2016, 03:36:28 PM
Quote from: rodic on February 15, 2016, 03:13:06 PM
Wait did we just lose the ability to dual stealth a Ranger with out an extended sub?
As well, we can't select thief and skip the gouge my eyes out listen grind?
Quote from: Thief helpfile
Thieves are petty criminals with clever hands. Able to conceal themselves in crowds and approach their marks unnoticed, they can both pick the pockets of their mark and perform the sleight of hand required to secrete their ill-gotten gains. Always on the lookout for their next mark, thieves have an eye for spotting choice targets on other people's persons.
Thieves are able to reach the level of advanced in sleight of hand. They can also attain the level of journeyman in sneak, steal, peek and hide.
Didn't catch that, nice.
remove torch
sheath pitchfork back
Rogue and Cutpurse need helpfiles added/adjusted.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 15, 2016, 03:13:18 PM
Love the changes!
One question, what happened to the search skill? It was one of my favorites from scavenger and isn't represented anywhere on the new subguilds.
Search was found to not have much impact in the game.
Quote from: Nyr on February 15, 2016, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on February 15, 2016, 03:13:18 PM
Love the changes!
One question, what happened to the search skill? It was one of my favorites from scavenger and isn't represented anywhere on the new subguilds.
Search was found to not have much impact in the game.
But then we removed search so we lost it again.
Welcome back, Nyr.
I'm confused. Search is no longer a skill in Armageddon? How are we supposed to find the plethora of hidden rooms out there?
Heya.
I think some options are missing amongst the extended subguild during chargen.
I'm not seeing
Aggressor
Majordomo
Master Trader
Apothecary
Minstrel
Berserker
Bruiser
Master Crafter
Protector
Cutpurse
Rogue
Grebber
Master Potter
Slipknife
Master Tailor
Weaponsmith
Quote from: wizturbo on February 15, 2016, 03:57:38 PM
I'm confused. Search is no longer a skill in Armageddon? How are we supposed to find the plethora of hidden rooms out there?
Burglars still get it, presumably.
I have yet to meet a burglar explorer, though.
Probably because they all get ate.
Burglar/protector: CAREFULLY climb up
Quote from: Dar on February 15, 2016, 04:01:53 PM
Heya.
I think some options are missing amongst the extended subguild during chargen.
I'm not seeing
Aggressor
Majordomo
Master Trader
Apothecary
Minstrel
Berserker
Bruiser
Master Crafter
Protector
Cutpurse
Rogue
Grebber
Master Potter
Slipknife
Master Tailor
Weaponsmith
The changes get applied to your account once you have logged in your character and it updates according to your karma. If you do not have a character to log in those changes won't be able to be applied, please submit a request.
Maybe you just type 'search' and then go make yourself a sandwich and you come back like half an hour later and then if there's a hidden room or exit it'll pop up eventually and automatically.
Dar, you should be fixed. Anyone else who doesn't have a character, has at least 1 karma and doesn't see their subguild options should put in a request as Adhira said.
m) Forester n) Gladiator o) Grebber
p) Guard q) House Servant r) Hunter
s) Jeweler t) Lancer u) Linguist
v) Majordomo w) Mercenary x) Minstrel
y) Nomad z) Outdoorsman A) Outlaw
B) Physician C) Protector D) Rogue
E) Slipknife F) Tailor G) Thief
H) Thug I) Weapon Crafter
J) Master Armorsmith K) Master Chef L) Master Crafter
M) Master Jeweler N) Master Potter O) Master Tailor
P) Master Trader Q) Master Weaponsmith
R) S) T)
U)
There's a formatting problem at the moment, I think it has to do with J being on the next line?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 15, 2016, 04:06:53 PM
There's a formatting problem at the moment, I think it has to do with J being on the next line?
That's so the master craft subguilds are all in one lump. Same as the next group of options are all of a kind.
I wish you needed clanning or search to find all the secret alcoves and stuff, instead of being lame and using key .
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:19:13 PM
I wish you needed clanning or search to find all the secret alcoves and stuff, instead of being lame and using key .
There are a bunch of secret doors out there that you can't find with the key . method.
I just wish their names changed every once in a while, so I couldn't "open grimypelts" with any subsequent PC just because I saw someone go through the grimypelts door once upon a time.
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:19:13 PM
I wish you needed clanning or search to find all the secret alcoves and stuff, instead of being lame and using key .
I think this was either fixed, or doesn't work in so many places now.
Quote from: nessalin on February 15, 2016, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 15, 2016, 04:06:53 PM
There's a formatting problem at the moment, I think it has to do with J being on the next line?
That's so the master craft subguilds are all in one lump. Same as the next group of options are all of a kind.
Ah that makes sense. The formatting problem I'm talking about is the spaces between the lines after M,N,O and P,Q.
I wish the outlaw part didnt mention red storm, or mul's outpost. I understand the hint, but there could be other sources of outlawism, or ... life's choices and events that would bring a person to that type of lifestyle. Then again, rebel was even worse at that.
whining aside. What a curious change. You guys are the devils. I've been trying to come up with a chara concept for the last 20 days I think, but kept postponing it, or coming up blank. Now you've got this ... wtf am I to do now? I've got like ... IRL stuff to do. Work! Life! Ughrrrh.
There is a mention that some civil worker in spain managed to pull off a 6 year sick leave. Do you think I'll swing that?
So like, can people play ext subs all the time now? and starting at 1 karma? seems like normal subs are tons weak now
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:58:25 PM
So like, can people play ext subs all the time now? and starting at 1 karma? seems like normal subs are tons weak now
They always were.
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:58:25 PM
So like, can people play ext subs all the time now? and starting at 1 karma? seems like normal subs are tons weak now
the extended subguilds are now different levels of CGP. You need at 3 karma to pick some of the better ones.
I've actually had the opposite thought and briefly beeb considering the thief and gladiator subguilds instead of these extended subs.
Also the normal subs apparently start with higher skills now? I think I heard that?
I think things will get offsetted, once extended subguilds start draining your CGP pool.
Quote from: Asmoth on February 15, 2016, 05:00:13 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:58:25 PM
So like, can people play ext subs all the time now? and starting at 1 karma? seems like normal subs are tons weak now
They always were.
yeah but limited to 3 a year
Hmm. So I am confused. Let's say I have 2 karma and don't file an special app. I log in and select 'desert elf' as my race (which is a 1 karma race). Will I then only have 0-1 karma subguilds available, or will I have 0-2 karma suguilds to choose from?
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 05:04:14 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on February 15, 2016, 05:00:13 PM
Quote from: Case on February 15, 2016, 04:58:25 PM
So like, can people play ext subs all the time now? and starting at 1 karma? seems like normal subs are tons weak now
They always were.
yeah but limited to 3 a year
I think that was more so that staff wasn't flooded with special apps for sub-guilds, now it's just a normal app.
I never thought it was for balance.
Quote from: nauta on February 15, 2016, 05:04:52 PM
Hmm. So I am confused. Let's say I have 2 karma and don't file an special app. I log in and select 'desert elf' as my race (which is a 1 karma race). Will I then only have 0-1 karma subguilds available, or will I have 0-2 karma suguilds to choose from?
I'm pretty sure the answer is no. You will have the option for desert elves AND whatever extended subguilds you have the karma for. The race selections doesn't take away CGP as far as I know.
extremely angry they took away scavenger.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 15, 2016, 05:42:39 PM
extremely angry they took away scavenger.
Heh, I used this subguild on every mage I ever played.
Ever.
Gladiator sub-guild is dope as fuck.
the ability to climb and the rare chance to find hidden rooms and a very good foraging skill has been taken away from me.
plus the ability to find food.
now i'm going to storm the staff castle and start shouting at them until they put it back put it back PUT IT BACK
Oh. Yeah. I'm not so sure this was intended.
I didnt go too far into the chargen, but I was able to pick Guild/ext. subguild selection that went into +3 above my karma level if combined. I dont think that was ment to happen.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 15, 2016, 05:49:39 PM
the ability to climb and the rare chance to find hidden rooms and a very good foraging skill has been taken away from me.
plus the ability to find food.
now i'm going to storm the staff castle and start shouting at them until they put it back put it back PUT IT BACK
On the other hand - now less people are able to forage for cabbages.
All you need is 2 Karma for Grebber. Get that karma review sent in.
Quote from: Dar on February 15, 2016, 05:51:55 PM
Oh. Yeah. I'm not so sure this was intended.
I didnt go too far into the chargen, but I was able to pick Guild/ext. subguild selection that went into +3 above my karma level if combined. I dont think that was ment to happen.
Race/guild selection don't effect your sub-guild CGP.
confirmation cabbages exist in game.
anger reduced considerably.
new goal: locate cabbages. assemble the army.
we will rule this land.
carry on with your change to subguilds.
Oh wow, You actually only need 1 karma for Grebber. OP as fuck.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 15, 2016, 05:53:13 PM
All you need is 2 Karma for Grebber. Get that karma review sent in.
Quote from: Dar on February 15, 2016, 05:51:55 PM
Oh. Yeah. I'm not so sure this was intended.
I didnt go too far into the chargen, but I was able to pick Guild/ext. subguild selection that went into +3 above my karma level if combined. I dont think that was ment to happen.
Race/guild selection don't effect your sub-guild CGP.
They don't - today.
Quote from: Adhira on February 15, 2016, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 15, 2016, 05:53:13 PM
All you need is 2 Karma for Grebber. Get that karma review sent in.
Quote from: Dar on February 15, 2016, 05:51:55 PM
Oh. Yeah. I'm not so sure this was intended.
I didnt go too far into the chargen, but I was able to pick Guild/ext. subguild selection that went into +3 above my karma level if combined. I dont think that was ment to happen.
Race/guild selection don't effect your sub-guild CGP.
They don't - today.
This is confusing becuase I thought people were given +3 with every spec-app precisely so that guild/race didn't have a huge impact on picking an extended subguild.
Edit: Also, wouldn't Karma have to go above 8 in order to pick certain things, like nilazi/agressor?
Yeah. But currently. This means that I can create 10 mul whiran outdoorsmen in the span of an hour. If I die quick enough and someone's clicking approve quick enough.
It wont be easy. But it's doable.
I'm perfectly okay with someone who had 8 karma playing mul whiran outdoorsman.
Quote from: Dar on February 15, 2016, 06:20:54 PM
Yeah. But currently. This means that I can create 10 mul whiran outdoorsmen in the span of an hour. If I die quick enough and someone's clicking approve quick enough.
It wont be easy. But it's doable.
Yeah but people with that amount of karma (only myself and delirium, really) usually wouldn't be doing shit like that!
Well, I probably would, but I doubt Delirium would.
Muls can't play mages.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Muls
"Mul magick-users no longer exist due to careful breeding techniques."
What if I have a human and a dwarf and a water mage and I decide to make my own Mul.
Cant he have magic then?
You aren't my boss!
Also a water mage dwarf could probably have a kid with a human and still be able to keep her alive during child burth cause muh healing.
Though I doubt you would want to.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 15, 2016, 06:50:54 PM
Muls can't play mages.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Muls
But they could still be sorcerers because that's learned, not born.
Mul Ranger, Magick Subguild = Unstoppable.
Truly irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
Love the changes.
One small thing on my wishlist: I think that subdue could use some love. It struggles to maintain its relevance outside of soldierly roles, imo.
I would have to see what the final helpfile on rogue and cutpurse says but: While I don't see myself picking guard over protector, I definately see myself picking thief over rogue/cutpurse or slipknife on some characters, but I have to see the final helpfile. Not to mention this can potentially free up a few more skill bumps if I'm special apping it.
Also with my warriors that need ride and/or direction sense: grebber is really nice, and so is master trader but nomad is still very well rounded. There is alot of options there that really have more to do with the type of character i want to play, rather than the skills. I admit that this is due to my own playstyle since I feel i need ride/direction sense is needed for me to personally have fun but not something like climb. And lately I've had some city bound character that have made me question the need for any skill other than sirihish/contact/barrier...........and hide/sneak (I ain't that good yet).
Anyways my point is depending on the character a few (not all) of the karma 0 subguilds are still very worth taking over an extended sub-guild.
I was never a huge fan of the loss of Tuluk. I miss the difference in context and play and characterization.
After reviewing these changes, I miss it a little less. The shifting of staff is clearly working well.
Thank you, staff, for making another significant change. This is beautiful and appreciated.
I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.
Quote from: Warsong on February 15, 2016, 10:29:45 PM
I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.
...it's unrealistic for people to know basics of stealth in city and wilderness settings?
Quote from: Warsong on February 15, 2016, 10:29:45 PM
I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.
I've always felt the opposite.
It always seemed stupid that someone who could move silently in the open desert, would have trouble moving in the city in hiding. I understand that they are different concepts, but not so far removed that you could be a ninja in the desert and trip over your own feet in the city.
While I think this is a good change, I still don't think it benefits anyone but desert elves, because I hardly ever see anyone sneaking mainly in the desert. It's a mounts world.
I think it should be four separate skills.
Crowd stealth, shadow stealth, camo stealth and cover stealth?
Blend, creep, stalk and hide.
Interesting. I'm probably getting this all wrong, however.
Blend would cover crowds and dunes, boosted by camo and requires scan to see.
Creep would cover sneaking quietly into and out of both wild/city rooms and requires listen and watch to catch.
Stalk would cover "shadowing" someone as its own skill seen by listen, scan and watch, boosted by hunt and creep.
Hide would be taking cover behind or under something and be revealable with a simple "examine room" skill?
Makes me realize just how complex the stealth system would have to be to be anywhere near realistic.
revealable with examine boosted by scan and watch perhaps.
Quote from: Nergal on February 15, 2016, 10:30:06 AM
Quote from: Asmoth on February 15, 2016, 09:53:46 AM
The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.
The helpfiles are updated now.
Cut purse is similarly outdated
And Rogue.
Also, it's probably jsut me, and i realize it's alphabetical, but this is how the helpfiles list the subguilds:
subguilds:
Aggressor Majordomo Master Trader
Apothecary Master Armorsmith Minstrel
Berserker Master Chef Outdoorsman
Bruiser Master Crafter Protector
Cutpurse Master Jeweler Rogue
Grebber Master Potter Slipknife
Lancer Master Tailor Weaponsmith
It bugs the fuck out of me that Master Trader isn't in the center column and Majordomo is. lol OCD
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 16, 2016, 12:37:21 AM
And Rogue.
Also, it's probably jsut me, and i realize it's alphabetical, but this is how the helpfiles list the subguilds:
subguilds:
Aggressor Majordomo Master Trader
Apothecary Master Armorsmith Minstrel
Berserker Master Chef Outdoorsman
Bruiser Master Crafter Protector
Cutpurse Master Jeweler Rogue
Grebber Master Potter Slipknife
Lancer Master Tailor Weaponsmith
It bugs the fuck out of me that Master Trader isn't in the center column and Majordomo is. lol OCD
I don't even know how you're looking at that list.
whoops, wrong again.
o shows you guild and race options, not subguild.
duh.
Quote from: Asmoth on February 16, 2016, 12:54:30 AM
I don't even know how you're looking at that list.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Extended%20Subguilds (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Extended%20Subguilds)
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 16, 2016, 01:20:00 AM
whoops, wrong again.
o shows you guild and race options, not subguild.
duh.
I wish there was sub-guilds also.
I would recommend we also put in the stipulation that half-giants no longer be able to select "Merchant" as a guild the same way they can't select "elementalist" as a guild.
I always find the few half-giant merchants I see in game to be very jarring.
Personal preference.
(We have hard-coded limitations on races already. City elves, for example, can't be rangers or outdoorsmen. I'm just proposing a similar one for half-giants based on their natural predispositions and how I personally interpret them.)
I don't think half-giants should be burglars, pickpockets or assassins either, to be fair. Skills like picking locks, applying poison delicately, being at all discreet and stealing things with anyone even paying vague attention seem like things either beyond their intelligence or limited because of their size. Even skills like hunt and bandage beyond apprentice seem like something they'd not be very good at.
Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2016, 11:31:05 AM
I don't think half-giants should be burglars, pickpockets or assassins either, to be fair. Skills like picking locks, applying poison delicately, being at all discreet and stealing things with anyone even paying vague attention seem like things either beyond their intelligence or limited because of their size. Even skills like hunt and bandage beyond apprentice seem like something they'd not be very good at.
I agree.
So, basicly warriors and rangers are the only choices for HG's, by going this way?
Quote from: Desertman on February 16, 2016, 11:25:56 AM
I would recommend we also put in the stipulation that half-giants no longer be able to select "Merchant" as a guild the same way they can't select "elementalist" as a guild.
I always find the few half-giant merchants I see in game to be very jarring.
Personal preference.
(We have hard-coded limitations on races already. City elves, for example, can't be rangers or outdoorsmen. I'm just proposing a similar one for half-giants based on their natural predispositions and how I personally interpret them.)
I love half-giants, but I agree with no half-giant pickpockets, burglars, and assassins. Half-giant Merchant is fine to me.
I can imagine a witless twit being able to copy things and remember crafting basics more than I can see them ever lockpicking or pickpocketing properly. I would be wary to accept half-giant innovations unless
someone else gave them the idea and coaches them along. It's not that jarring that a half-giant can make stuff like crappy clothes, pots, and spears if they put their life's effort towards it and have witnessed it before.
I personally find the existence of Whirans most jarring. It's not even the deathspells they have/used to have either. I hate anything and everything that can magickally fly around in a low-magick setting. I don't even mind the concept, it's just the idea of someone jetting around like Superman pisses me off more than any half-giant ever did.
There goes my character concept of a half-giant burglar who roleplays his lockpicking knocking doors down by force.
Half-giants should have no skills except two_handed and skinning!
(More seriously, I think the low wisdom on a half-giant -should- mean that even if they do have a load of skills from whatever guild, they'll take forever to get anywhere with them. Although, I bet in practice that's not the case. Perhaps cap everything at journeyman.)
Quote from: Armaddict on February 15, 2016, 10:37:37 PM
...it's unrealistic for people to know basics of stealth in city and wilderness settings?
It's unrealistic for desert elves to have city stealth, pickpockets to have wilderness stealth, etc.
I'd say no character should have both. Or at least it shouldn't be governed by your subguild, perhaps rather by your starting location. So few subguilds are worth considering when there's one that lets you stealth in whatever terrain you normally can't. It's too much of a benefit, almost nothing can compete with it. Giving your rogue character the ability to sneak and hide perfectly in the desert, or your ranger or d-elf in the city, is simply too much of a benefit, and it's clear that nearly everybody chooses this. I think only gladiator is even a worthwhile alternative, and that subguild is frankly overvalued compared to the rest.
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Quote~ Removed Scavenger
Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.
I'm very sad, for the sake of my past and future PCs, and especially my present, if forage food has been removed (?) from her. She shouldn't starve, but it would be another part of her soul removed. Ironically, I took the shiny new Rogue extended subguild for my majicker, and was very disappointed to find it didn't have climb.
i do look forward to seeing what the bolded sentence means.
I
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 12:03:31 PM
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.
I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 12:03:31 PM
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.
I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.
Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude. It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assassin hide does.
Man, unless food stops being equally good (coded effects or very different portioning or a measure of fullness tied to mass and limits of consumption), having everybody equally feedable in the wilds in a survival post apoc themed mud seems so bland. I didn't like the triviality of survival before, let alone with it becoming easier.
That or really make water hard to get or something.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 01:07:43 PM
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 12:03:31 PM
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.
I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.
Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude. It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.
If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.
I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 01:07:43 PM
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 12:03:31 PM
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.
I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.
Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude. It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.
If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.
I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.
Rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants all get scan.
How is that rare? That's four out of six mundane guilds.
I sort of agree with the stealth-gear problem but at the same time, I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that it's warranted because of the way players tend to overreact to stealth failures.
Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.
Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2016, 01:23:08 PM
Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.
I would think that, for most people, creating a disincentive for playing burglars and assassins would be hailed as a good thing.
#justsayin
I was always under the impression they were underplayed classes.
When low fantasy is the focus, it seems like a reasonable incentive to allow casters to have more mundane skill options and fewer magickal skill options. Maybe it'd be good to have elementalist subguilds, in the same vein as sorcerer subguilds.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2016, 01:23:08 PM
Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.
I would think that, for most people, creating a disincentive for playing burglars and assassins would be hailed as a good thing.
#justsayin
The quoted piece is my opinion. If most people have another opinion, they can make it heard as well.
Can Magickers not get Extended (Karma) Subguilds now? Or do they still need to spec-app for them?
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 16, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
Can Magickers not get Extended (Karma) Subguilds now? Or do they still need to spec-app for them?
Probably special app.
They don't want the Byn getting out of hand with rogue 'gicker/protector/aggressor types.
:P
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 01:15:53 PM
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 01:07:43 PM
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 12:03:31 PM
Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.
For regular humanoids, it's fine. Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:
What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.
Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.
It really isn't a problem. Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power. Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.
Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.
I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.
Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude. It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.
If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.
I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.
Rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants all get scan.
How is that rare? That's four out of six mundane guilds.
I sort of agree with the stealth-gear problem but at the same time, I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that it's warranted because of the way players tend to overreact to stealth failures.
There is city and wilderness scan too. So that's 3 mundane guilds with city, 1 with wilderness, of which 3 are the same stealthy types wanting to ninja around (not all but allow me a little hyperbole), one is a hated/underpowered mundane guild and one is relegated to crafting vendorism most of the time.
and yeah player reaction to stealth failures could be better but the stealth code could be a lot better
Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2016, 01:23:08 PM
Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.
Yeah this
Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 02:32:11 PM
Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.
Better than idling
This is getting off topic. Let's confine our discussion to the recent subguild changes, rather than drilling down into the pros and cons of dual-stealth characters. Another thread would be fine for that.
Quote from: Case on February 16, 2016, 02:33:29 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 16, 2016, 02:32:11 PM
Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.
Better than idling
Hidling
Aww no more nilazi-slipknifes?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 16, 2016, 04:19:58 PM
Aww no more nilazi-slipknifes?
They're still the same, a special app.
Well that's unfortunate. I'd be curious to hear why they allowed it for 27 hours before disabling it again. Was this a case of the removal was always intended to be put in, they just didn't get the code bug free before flipping on extended subguilds for everyone? Or was the code meant to be there but a bug stopped it from working?
Then again, we were special apping before the change so there's no real difference to special apping after the change. At least the number of guilds that do need to special app in order to get an extended subguild is halved. So there's that. Hopefully the GCP calculation code isn't too far away from being implemented :)
Seems a sensible restriction to me. Magick Guild + Extended Subguild generally equals Powerful Combination. An extra layer of oversight and bottle-neck on their numbers is a good thing.
Me, I don't think I'll ever be spec-apping anytime soon if I can just roll up Mundanes and Extendeds whenever I want.
Yeah, I'm really glad they karma subguilds and karma guilds/races. Its not to much to ask those combinations get restricted and limited to a certain degree. That is not to say we won't see them more often but they should require an app at least.
As for the whole ranger slipknife thing, I'd be much more concerned with warriors bashing you from stealth in the middle of the night, and using their natural poison of blunt force trauma on you. Even without bash, having played a high level warrior, who fought against other high level warriors, I know even getting attacked first when unarmed, or even with just a shield is still a delayed death sentence. And all the stealth extended guild classes have tools to make any of those fights pretty one sided for a warrior.
With the guild changes coming warriors are still in line for getting a buff (better ride and/or branch direction sense) or rangers are going to get a nef.
Lastly we should make sure food and water are easy to get for very new players to get, but it is easy enough as it is for people with a few characters under their belt. If anything the jobs around the city, should just pay in food and water and less in coins.
food and water easier to get?
give me back scavenger and i'll show you easy.
Argh, I was hoping that we could just automatically pick the karma guild / extended guild if we had the karma for it.
Quote from: Bogre on February 16, 2016, 08:43:34 PM
Argh, I was hoping that we could just automatically pick the karma guild / extended guild if we had the karma for it.
You can, but you can't pick a combination of karma guild and karma subguild without a request tool app, just like before.
Quote from: Mordiggian on February 17, 2016, 02:15:49 AM
Quote from: Bogre on February 16, 2016, 08:43:34 PM
Argh, I was hoping that we could just automatically pick the karma guild / extended guild if we had the karma for it.
You can, but you can't pick a combination of karma guild and karma subguild without a request tool app, just like before.
Yea, the automatic picking of the combos is part what I was excited about. I don't like to special app! (I actually don't think I ever have, for anything not a role call)
Special apps for extended subguilds seem to have a pretty quick turnaround. They can also be done while your current character is alive.
Rogue and Cutthroat still need their helpfiles updated.
Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.
Does this apply to current characters? If you have a hunter, are you just going to have fletchery and outdoor sneak ripped from your skillset?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 17, 2016, 12:24:06 PM
Rogue and Cutthroat still need their helpfiles updated.
JEET CHRIST MOM, I'LL DO IT AFTER THIS GAME.
Donezo.
I suggest listing out the subguilds (basic vs karma required) in the menu much like guilds are.
(http://i.imgur.com/xvV39Of.png)
Would help clarify things a lot more than the somewhat crammed-looking list we currently have in the helpfiles.
So:
Subguilds
> Standard
>> List of Standard Subs
> Karma Required
>> List of Karma Required Subs
for streamlining sake I would do away with the term 'extended subguilds' and just say 'karma required subguilds'
so it's 'karma required guilds' and 'karma required subguilds'
to reduce any newbie confusion about wtf an extended sub is.
but that's just me.
I like that idea a lot.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 17, 2016, 04:46:01 PM
Donezo.
(http://puu.sh/nbLxd/1d7cddb07d.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/nbLzH/39f4042e23.png)
Tiny suggestion, and a question. Question first:
1. I thought apothecarists untapped the majesty of 'floristry' with the new change, but there is no mention of it in the help file. Am I wrong?
2. Tiny suggestion. Change 'master the art of brewing' to 'do advanced work in the art of brewing' (since apothecarists only get brewing to 'advanced' according to the second paragraph). Probably not worth it.
Quote
An apothecary possesses the basic skills and knowledge of a physician - the ability to staunch wounds and create the bandages and poultices needed to do so. Apothecaries take their calling a little more seriously, however, going on to master the art of brewing. Some will dabble in consumables such as soaps and candles, while others specialize in the medicinal aspect of salves and poultices. Apothecaries are skilled at foraging for the things needed in their concoctions.
Apothecaries begin play with bandage, forage, and bandagemaking. They can achieve advanced levels in bandage and forage, and achieve mastery in bandagemaking, allowing them to mastercraft new kinds of bandages, splints, and poultices for the injured. Sufficient practice in bandaging will lead to knowledge of brewing, which apothecaries can practice to an advanced level.
I noticed the links on the karma page are screwed up.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options)
They probably shouldn't be in a dd where Bootstrap gives it that horrible offset. I mean, why not just make the class names the links?
I'm sort of dissatisfied by some the the extended subs now that I know the levels they get in skills.
why? they rock.
apothecaries should master brewing. they're apothecaries. it's their job to be masters of the art of brewing.
a·poth·e·car·y
əˈpäTHiˌkerē/
nounarchaic
noun: apothecary; plural noun: apothecaries
a person who prepared and sold medicines and drugs.
Origin
drugs. medicine.
master brew.
nothing to do with bandaging in that definition.
I was spoiled on the better advanced subguilds.
My beef with rogue is that I wouldn't entrust my character's life with journeyman sneak/hide on anything but an elf(maybe) or a ranger. Considering the skills it lost, and the fact that journeyman climb isn't good enough for anything but getting out of the holes you've already fallen into, I think bumping that to advanced would be okay.
Sap is also a thieves tool in my book, but I can master assassin becoming decent at it (though i can see them not in the future too with more killing focused tool set). I don't think slipknife should get sap. Not to mention sap needs a completely different tool set then you've been practicing with backstab to make it effective. Instead of sap I would have liked to see something any guild taking it would have found a bit more useful, like master throw (but that would make it into a real killer wouldn't it?), or even city hunt.
cutpurse should get advanced sleight of hand like thief, and someone should get advanced sap. :D
These are small observations and thoughts though. Overall I like what I see, their current level of strength makes them fit being low karna extended sub-guilds.
Huge thank you to staff for these exciting changes. :)
Rogues get watch... I thought everyone got watch? Was it removed from some guilds?
The numerous Jman caps on rogue do seem pretty blah.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 18, 2016, 01:15:24 PM
The numerous Jman caps on rogue do seem pretty blah.
Agreed. Rogue doesn't seem any better than a normal subguild in some cases because of the low caps.
Cutpurse also has all of its skills capped at journeyman.
To my knowledge watch goes to journeyman on everyone by default.
im sure as time goes on the Subguilds will get adjusted some as the imms find a proper balance/get feedback
But we do got to remember that subguilds are meant for flavor, too!
Flavor comes second to code when skill failures could get you killed.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 18, 2016, 02:16:22 PM
Flavor comes second to code when skill failures could get you killed.
But when you fail and live, the flavor comes to life and makes much more awesome RP.
The greatest stories characters can have can stem from their failures and how they survive them.
Its very anti-RP to think fail = instant death.
Its rarely been the case for me.
If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.
That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 18, 2016, 03:48:36 PM
If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.
That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.
Skill levels were visible long before Rogues and Cutpurses even existed.
The extended subguilds haven't been in play long enough for there to be any really good balancing-type data, probably.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 18, 2016, 03:48:36 PM
If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.
Oh yeah I understand that entirely.
Quote
That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.
Yeah, I agree with you here on this too, as a relatively new player (Close to my second year), I haven't touched the extended subguilds much at all, so I can't make a comment on how it performs.
Journeyman stealth is probably good enough to hide from NPCs. While not being virtually invisible, it's worth something.
Whoops, double post.
Journeyman level wilderness sneak and hide is useful. It allows you to hunt animals that would otherwise flee from you pretty easily.
It is actually reasonably useful to a ranger/hunter.
City based sneak/hide that doesn't Master, in my opinion, based on how you will typically use it (against other PC's almost exclusively in situations where you NEED it to not fail) is more or less a deathtrap.
Quote from: Molten Heart on February 18, 2016, 04:16:08 PM
Journeyman stealth is probably good enough to hide from NPCs. While not being virtually invisible, it's worth something.
Not having stealth at all is also hella fun when you're playing a character who thinks she's being very clever by sneaking past people, even though you (the player) know damned well she's not fooling anyone. I've done that on a few of my characters.
I think I messed up the actual skill levels on the Rogue and Cutpurse. I will investigate tomorrow and update the help file as needed. First glance suggests I don't know how skill levels work.
Due to the way skills work, its often better to have one advanced skill, than two skills at journeyman. I've already had a high agility pickpocket die due to a fail steal with the skill mastered. I loved that character's personality so much that even now I curse the day I chose him to be a pickpocket, he could have been anything else. Since a lot of the rogue and cutpurse skills are potential game enders for the characters using them, it would be great to see some of them being a bit more reliable, even if that means bumping the sub-guild one more karma.
Glad to hear its being looked at though. :)
I'd say the problem is with the pickpocket. Many of the extended subguilds are designed as "mini-guilds". So we have the mini- fighter subguilds, the mini-merchant subguilds, etc. the rogue (to me) seems to be a mini-pickpocket which (many of us) believed is an inherently flawed guild. So therefore there's issues with the mini-pickpocket subguild. Ideally once the guilds are revised, one final sanity-check will be done on the subguilds.
My developing rogue had advanced sneak. Not a c-elf :)
Quote from: solera on February 19, 2016, 04:55:48 AM
My developing rogue had advanced sneak. Not a c-elf :)
Even on a c-elf, advanced sneak/hide is pretty useless.
I had a warrior/rogue c-elf a while back and it was a big "meh." I had maybe a 75% chance to successfully hide at all, and I couldn't sneak+hide more than maybe 3 rooms at a time before failing something.
The most useful aspect, honestly, was tricking guild-sniffers into thinking I was a newbie c-elf burglar, since I used slashing weapons and was failing sneak and hide all the time, but using it with some success.
Surprise, motherfucker.
After actually taking the time to check the numbers, yes - both cutpurse and rogue have all their skills at advanced.
Quote from: Rathustra on February 19, 2016, 07:35:36 PM
After actually taking the time to check the numbers, yes - both cutpurse and rogue have all their skills at advanced.
So happy to see that Cutpurse can actually get advanced at cutting purses :)
Might also want to look at the basic guard subguild. Unless that shield_use proficiency was lowered in the overhaul, it should be advanced as well.
Cutpurse is looking tempting, though I still wish there was advanced sap somewhere. I might give it a shot though someday though, might be something I'm missing since poison seems more reliable.
Advanced hide and sneak is reliable enough that with the right investments you can pull off a few interesting things, and with pick and advanced climb, I'd bite with the right class/guild/race.
I still advocate slipknife getting something other than sap, but that is mostly prep work for the guilds discussion in the future. If slipknife only had master hide and sneak, i'd still pick it.
In short, they all look good now. :)
The link to the Guard subguild on the website goes to the helpfile for guard, not subguild_guard.
Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.
Does this apply to current characters? If you have a hunter, are you just going to have fletchery and outdoor sneak taken from your skillset? Would you have noticed this happened already if it was going to? Or is this more of a "all hunters made going forward" kind of thing. This is the third time this question has been posed now (twice by me, and once by Jihelu I believe) and I haven't yet seen an answer. Apologies if I have missed the answer - but I just went and reread the entire thread to make sure.
QuoteThey're retroactive. If your PC has a changed subguild they will have added or removed skills
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50648.0.html
Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move? I made my character with a particular guild/subguild combination for a reason. I worked hard getting particular skills up and then I find I log in and my character is not only permanently changed through no action of my own...but my character is now fundamentally broken. Is there no way a current PC can say "Nope. Please just leave my character the way they are"? Or switch to a subguild that contains the skills my original subguild had and was thus the reason for my picking that subguild to begin with?
Quote from: shpadoinkle on February 22, 2016, 01:57:50 PM
Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move? I made my character with a particular guild/subguild combination for a reason. I worked hard getting particular skills up and then I find I log in and my character is not only permanently changed through no action of my own...but my character is now fundamentally broken. Is there no way a current PC can say "Nope. Please just leave my character the way they are"? Or switch to a subguild that contains the skills my original subguild had and was thus the reason for my picking that subguild to begin with?
If you're this unsettled about it open up some communication with staff, they have a tool for that. Admin+ can edit your skills, it's in the realm of very real possibility that the end of your horrible suffering is one request away.
Quote from: shpadoinkle on February 22, 2016, 01:57:50 PM
Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move?
And no, I think most players understand that their subguild being altered was just a side effect of the code change, a necessary step in progress. Unfortunately you can't alter a subguild without by effect altering all the pc's in game that use it.
Quote from: Majikal on February 22, 2016, 02:04:49 PM
If you're this unsettled about it open up some communication with staff, they have a tool for that. Admin+ can edit your skills, it's in the realm of very real possibility that the end of your horrible suffering is one request away.
Half my point was I shouldn't
have to
ask to have my character stay the same way he's been for the last two years. He should just stay that way. But thanks for the snark. Reminds me why I don't post on the GDB.
And to be clear: I applaud staff's initiative to fix up the subguilds. Don't get me wrong there. I just very much dislike the approach when it comes to current characters. As a GM, I would never consider doing this to one of my players's characters. If nothing else, it makes absolutely no sense from a roleplaying perspective.
Send in a polite email request about it. I doubt staff intended for this to screw over anyone's character.
I mean, it could be worse, you could have had your entire guild picked out for you. :P But they meant well. So instead of stewing on it, trying to make it work, and then sending in a frustrated email anyway, just reach out now. Shoot off a quick "hey, guys, this doesn't jive with my character concept, how can we fix this" email and see how it goes.
That way you're saving everyone some time and yourself (and likely the staff) a good bit of frustration and confusion.
They're reasonable people as long as you deal reasonably with them.
source: been there, done that
Quote from: Delirium on February 22, 2016, 02:26:10 PM
Send in a polite email request about it. I doubt staff intended for this to screw over anyone's character.
I mean, it could be worse, you could have had your entire guild picked out for you. :P But they meant well. So instead of stewing on it, trying to make it work, and then sending in a frustrated email anyway, just reach out now. Shoot off a quick "hey, guys, this doesn't jive with my character concept, how can we fix this" email and see how it goes.
That way you're saving everyone some time and yourself (and likely the staff) a good bit of frustration and confusion.
They're reasonable people as long as you deal reasonably with them.
source: been there, done that
See there, that's a much better response. Thank you very much. And if it's my ignorance as to how the code works and they
had to change everyone with a particular subguild...then my apologies. But it still would have been nice to have been warned about it ahead of time and given the option to either go with the change or retrofit my character back to the original subguild's skills. I didn't see this mentioned anywhere on the GDB and in fact someone had to actually ask whether these changes were retroactive before we even learned such.
Quote from: shpadoinkle on February 22, 2016, 01:57:50 PM
Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move? I made my character with a particular guild/subguild combination for a reason. I worked hard getting particular skills up and then I find I log in and my character is not only permanently changed through no action of my own...but my character is now fundamentally broken. Is there no way a current PC can say "Nope. Please just leave my character the way they are"? Or switch to a subguild that contains the skills my original subguild had and was thus the reason for my picking that subguild to begin with?
Many people have posted their delight at getting their skills changed. As Majikal said, I'm sure staff are quite open to changing you back if the skills you lost were important to your character concept.
Quote from: shpadoinkle on February 22, 2016, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Delirium on February 22, 2016, 02:26:10 PM
Send in a polite email request about it. I doubt staff intended for this to screw over anyone's character.
I mean, it could be worse, you could have had your entire guild picked out for you. :P But they meant well. So instead of stewing on it, trying to make it work, and then sending in a frustrated email anyway, just reach out now. Shoot off a quick "hey, guys, this doesn't jive with my character concept, how can we fix this" email and see how it goes.
That way you're saving everyone some time and yourself (and likely the staff) a good bit of frustration and confusion.
They're reasonable people as long as you deal reasonably with them.
source: been there, done that
See there, that's a much better response. Thank you very much. And if it's my ignorance as to how the code works and they had to change everyone with a particular subguild...then my apologies. But it still would have been nice to have been warned about it ahead of time and given the option to either go with the change or retrofit my character back to the original subguild's skills. I didn't see this mentioned anywhere on the GDB and in fact someone had to actually ask whether these changes were retroactive before we even learned such.
When changes are done to guilds (and assume this is the same for the subguild) your skills that you have that are not in the new tree disappear. I know this because I was playing a sorcerer a very long time ago when they changed the spell list and I lost several spells. And then a long time ago I was playing a sorcerer and they changed the spell list again and I lost some spells. I was told the first time that it was not possible to keep the stuff that disappeared, although I don't know if I was given a code or an equity answer.
I'm not so sure that's true. I had a pickpocket with slashing, piercing and bludgeoning when the guild weapon skills were swapped
Changes to the subguild meant that when someone logged in with that subguild it was 'updated' upon login to match the new files.
If you find that it's changed in a way that doesn't work for you please get in touch and we can see what other options we have for you.
Quote from: Adhira on February 22, 2016, 11:30:05 PM
Changes to the subguild meant that when someone logged in with that subguild it was 'updated' upon login to match the new files.
If you find that it's changed in a way that doesn't work for you please get in touch and we can see what other options we have for you.
everyone keeps mentioning magickal subguilds.
what do you mean by magickal subguilds.
like, elementalist lites?
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 06:03:33 AM
Quote from: Adhira on February 22, 2016, 11:30:05 PM
Changes to the subguild meant that when someone logged in with that subguild it was 'updated' upon login to match the new files.
If you find that it's changed in a way that doesn't work for you please get in touch and we can see what other options we have for you.
everyone keeps mentioning magickal subguilds.
what do you mean by magickal subguilds.
like, elementalist lite?
No - sorcerers are now subguilds. Magickal subguilds refer to those.
ohhhh. i thought that was what it meant.
should probably just call it "sorc subguilds" or something. it's even less words, check that out.
Apothecary should have master bandage. Really irked me when I made a concept built around it only to find out I'd never actually be that good. Rangers shouldn't be the only one with it.
Weaponsmith should be able to make clubs and axes.
You can request additional/different weapon making skills for weaponsmiths.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 06, 2016, 01:27:16 AM
You can request additional/different weapon making skills for weaponsmiths.
Really? I hadn't read that. Still, it would be nice if it didn't require a spec app, but instead there were 2 types of weapon crafters. One trades spear and sword making for club and axe making, but both get arrows and knives. Also, if there were spearmaking recipes for damned wooden poles...
Or... just one type. Because why have two? Not like people are going to be complaining that a crafter subguild is OP.
It's not listed anywhere. I just asked via the Special App to swap one weapon-type for another because it made more sense for the character. This was back when you still had to spec app for extended subguilds. Not sure if you could do it these days without burning an app.