Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[Synthesis]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

[bracken]

~ Removed Scavenger

Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.

I'm very sad, for the sake of my past and future PCs, and especially my present, if forage food has been removed (?) from her. She shouldn't starve, but it would be another part of her soul removed. Ironically, I took the shiny new Rogue extended subguild for my majicker, and was very disappointed to find it didn't have climb.
i do look forward to seeing what the bolded sentence means.

I

[Case]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.

I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.

[Synthesis]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.

I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.

Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude.  It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assassin hide does.

[Case]

Man, unless food stops being equally good (coded effects or very different portioning or a measure of fullness tied to mass and limits of consumption), having everybody equally feedable in the wilds in a survival post apoc themed mud seems so bland. I didn't like the triviality of survival before, let alone with it becoming easier.

That or really make water hard to get or something.

[Case]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.

I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.

Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude.  It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.

If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.

I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.

[Synthesis]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.

I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.

Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude.  It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.

If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.

I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.

Rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants all get scan.

How is that rare?  That's four out of six mundane guilds.

I sort of agree with the stealth-gear problem but at the same time, I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that it's warranted because of the way players tend to overreact to stealth failures.

[Patuk]

Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.

[Synthesis]

Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.

I would think that, for most people, creating a disincentive for playing burglars and assassins would be hailed as a good thing.

#justsayin

[rodic]

I was always under the impression they were underplayed classes.

[Molten Heart]

When low fantasy is the focus, it seems like a reasonable incentive to allow casters to have more mundane skill options and fewer magickal skill options. Maybe it'd be good to have elementalist subguilds, in the same vein as sorcerer subguilds.

[Patuk]

Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.

I would think that, for most people, creating a disincentive for playing burglars and assassins would be hailed as a good thing.

#justsayin

The quoted piece is my opinion. If most people have another opinion, they can make it heard as well.

[BadSkeelz]

Can Magickers not get Extended (Karma) Subguilds now? Or do they still need to spec-app for them?

[Synthesis]

Can Magickers not get Extended (Karma) Subguilds now? Or do they still need to spec-app for them?

Probably special app.

They don't want the Byn getting out of hand with rogue 'gicker/protector/aggressor types.

[Case]

Dual-stealth doesn't make much sense for d-elves, I'll grant that.

For regular humanoids, it's fine.  Limiting the discussion to regular humanoids:

What people really are upset about is the ability to backstab critters to get gud.

Nobody is seriously worried about rangers sneaking into your apartment and tanning your hides in the middle of the night, or sneaking up to your hunting camp and stealing the chalton steaks out of your packed bags.

It really isn't a problem.  Ranger/slipknives will never reach epic-level "kill you in the street in broad daylight" power.  Assassin/hunters won't get there for like 15-20 days played, even after mastering chalton anatomy, and that's only if they survive, which is highly unlikely.

Nah I'm cool with backstab. Not everybody thinks in shitty skill up terms like you.

I think the mechanism of translating wilderness stealth into city stealth or vice versa via particular subguild choice is unusual mechanically and a newbie trap, that high levels of stealth in both getting played as invisibility is dumb, and it makes a guild like ranger far too city guild for no good reason.

Ranger stealth isn't ninja stealth, dude.  It doesn't consistently beat scan like burglar and assasin hide does.

If a Ranger 'gears up' just like thieves seem inclined to do, they're still way solid. The PC counters are still tied to one skill that is rarely given out and low capped for how it works on subguild options.

I don't think spamming 'look' should be a scan strategy either. There are ways to stop that codedly.

Rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants all get scan.

How is that rare?  That's four out of six mundane guilds.

I sort of agree with the stealth-gear problem but at the same time, I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that it's warranted because of the way players tend to overreact to stealth failures.

There is city and wilderness scan too. So that's 3 mundane guilds with city, 1 with wilderness, of which 3 are the same stealthy types wanting to ninja around (not all but allow me a little hyperbole), one is a hated/underpowered mundane guild and one is relegated to crafting vendorism most of the time.

and yeah player reaction to stealth failures could be better but the stealth code could be a lot better

[Case]

Rangers gettting some semblance of city stealth is fine imo. Stealth having gear to boost the skill so assassins and burglars don't become unplayable is also fine. The issue imo is more that a ranger with city stealth skills and +stealth gear can essentially remove a lot of the reason for why anyone would want to play a burglar or an assassin. The reverse doesn't really apply, since outdoor stealth is used a whole lot less than the city counterpart is.

Yeah this

[Synthesis]

Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.

[Case]

Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.

Better than idling

[LauraMars]

This is getting off topic. Let's confine our discussion to the recent subguild changes, rather than drilling down into the pros and cons of dual-stealth characters. Another thread would be fine for that.

[Synthesis]

Let's all roll ranger/cutpurses and stand around hiding in the Gaj and spotting each other with scan.

Better than idling

Hidling

[RogueGunslinger]

Aww no more nilazi-slipknifes?

[Molten Heart]

Aww no more nilazi-slipknifes?

They're still the same, a special app.

[John]

Well that's unfortunate. I'd be curious to hear why they allowed it for 27 hours before disabling it again. Was this a case of the removal was always intended to be put in, they just didn't get the code bug free before flipping on extended subguilds for everyone? Or was the code meant to be there but a bug stopped it from working?

Then again, we were special apping before the change so there's no real difference to special apping after the change. At least the number of guilds that do need to special app in order to get an extended subguild is halved. So there's that. Hopefully the GCP calculation code isn't too far away from being implemented

[BadSkeelz]

Seems a sensible restriction to me. Magick Guild + Extended Subguild generally equals Powerful Combination. An extra layer of oversight and bottle-neck on their numbers is a good thing.

Me, I don't think I'll ever be spec-apping anytime soon if I can just roll up Mundanes and Extendeds whenever I want.

[Dresan]

Yeah, I'm really glad they karma subguilds and karma guilds/races. Its not to much to ask those combinations get restricted and limited to a certain degree. That is not to say we won't see them more often but they should require an app at least.


As for the whole ranger slipknife thing, I'd be much more concerned with warriors bashing you from stealth in the middle of the night, and using their natural poison of blunt force trauma on you.  Even without bash, having played a high level warrior, who fought against other high level warriors, I know even getting attacked first when unarmed, or even with just a shield is still a delayed death sentence. And all the stealth extended guild classes have tools to make any of those fights pretty one sided for a warrior.


With the guild changes coming warriors are still in line for getting a buff (better ride and/or branch direction sense) or rangers are going to get a nef.


Lastly we should make sure food and water are easy to get for very new players to get, but it is easy enough as it is for people with a few characters under their belt. If anything the jobs around the city, should just pay in food and water and less in coins.