Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[Sunburned]

Love the changes.

One small thing on my wishlist: I think that subdue could use some love.  It struggles to maintain its relevance outside of soldierly roles, imo.

[Dresan]

I would have to see what the final helpfile on rogue and cutpurse says but: While I don't see myself picking guard over protector, I definately see myself picking thief over rogue/cutpurse or slipknife on some characters, but I have to see the final helpfile. Not to mention this can potentially free up a few more skill bumps if I'm special apping it.

Also with my warriors that need ride and/or direction sense: grebber is really nice, and so is master trader but nomad is still very well rounded. There is alot of options there that really have more to do with the type of character i want to play, rather than the skills. I admit that this is due to my own playstyle since I feel i need ride/direction sense is needed for me to personally have fun but not something like climb. And lately I've had some city bound character that have made me question the need for any skill other than sirihish/contact/barrier...........and hide/sneak (I ain't that good yet).

Anyways my point is depending on the character a few (not all) of the karma 0 subguilds are still very worth taking over an extended sub-guild.

[Culinary Critic]

I was never a huge fan of the loss of Tuluk.  I miss the difference in context and play and characterization.

After reviewing these changes, I miss it a little less.  The shifting of staff is clearly working well.

Thank you, staff, for making another significant change.  This is beautiful and appreciated.

[Warsong]

I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.

[Armaddict]

I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.

...it's unrealistic for people to know basics of stealth in city and wilderness settings?

[Asmoth]

I feel the subguilds that grant wilderness/city stealth are too good and shouldn't provide this benefit to characters that innately get the opposite kind. Having both is excessive and will always heavily sway what subguilds people take. A warrior with outlaw should get wilderness stealth, but an assassin shouldn't. A mage taking the thief subguild should get city stealth but a desert elf shouldn't. It's pure metagaming and often completely unrealistic.

I've always felt the opposite.

It always seemed stupid that someone who could move silently in the open desert, would have trouble moving in the city in hiding.  I understand that they are different concepts, but not so far removed that you could be a ninja in the desert and trip over your own feet in the city.

While I think this is a good change, I still don't think it benefits anyone but desert elves, because I hardly ever see anyone sneaking mainly in the desert.  It's a mounts world.

[Case]

I think it should be four separate skills.

[RogueGunslinger]

Crowd stealth, shadow stealth, camo stealth and cover stealth?

[Case]

Blend, creep, stalk and hide.

[RogueGunslinger]

Interesting. I'm probably getting this all wrong, however.

Blend would cover crowds and dunes, boosted by camo and requires scan to see.

Creep would cover sneaking quietly into and out of both wild/city rooms and requires listen and watch to catch.

Stalk would cover "shadowing" someone as its own skill seen by listen, scan and watch, boosted by hunt and creep.

Hide would be taking cover behind or under something and be revealable with a simple "examine room" skill?



Makes me realize just how complex the stealth system would have to be to be anywhere near realistic.

[evilcabbage]

revealable with examine boosted by scan and watch perhaps.

[wizturbo]

The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.

The helpfiles are updated now.

Cut purse is similarly outdated

[RogueGunslinger]

And Rogue.

Also, it's probably jsut me, and i realize it's alphabetical, but this is how the helpfiles list the subguilds:

Code Select Expand


subguilds:
Aggressor Majordomo       Master Trader
Apothecary Master Armorsmith     Minstrel
Berserker Master Chef      Outdoorsman
Bruiser        Master Crafter        Protector
Cutpurse Master Jeweler      Rogue
Grebber        Master Potter      Slipknife
Lancer        Master Tailor      Weaponsmith

It bugs the fuck out of me that Master Trader isn't in the center column and Majordomo is. lol OCD

[Asmoth]

And Rogue.

Also, it's probably jsut me, and i realize it's alphabetical, but this is how the helpfiles list the subguilds:

Code Select Expand


subguilds:
Aggressor Majordomo       Master Trader
Apothecary Master Armorsmith     Minstrel
Berserker Master Chef      Outdoorsman
Bruiser        Master Crafter        Protector
Cutpurse Master Jeweler      Rogue
Grebber        Master Potter      Slipknife
Lancer        Master Tailor      Weaponsmith

It bugs the fuck out of me that Master Trader isn't in the center column and Majordomo is. lol OCD

I don't even know how you're looking at that list.

[evilcabbage]

whoops, wrong again.

o shows you guild and race options, not subguild.

duh.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't even know how you're looking at that list.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Extended%20Subguilds

[Barsook]

whoops, wrong again.

o shows you guild and race options, not subguild.

duh.

I wish there was sub-guilds also.

[Desertman]

I would recommend we also put in the stipulation that half-giants no longer be able to select "Merchant" as a guild the same way they can't select "elementalist" as a guild.

I always find the few half-giant merchants I see in game to be very jarring.

Personal preference.

(We have hard-coded limitations on races already. City elves, for example, can't be rangers or outdoorsmen. I'm just proposing a similar one for half-giants based on their natural predispositions and how I personally interpret them.)

[Patuk]

I don't think half-giants should be burglars, pickpockets or assassins either, to be fair. Skills like picking locks, applying poison delicately, being at all discreet and stealing things with anyone even paying vague attention seem like things either beyond their intelligence or limited because of their size. Even skills like hunt and bandage beyond apprentice seem like something they'd not be very good at.

[Desertman]

I don't think half-giants should be burglars, pickpockets or assassins either, to be fair. Skills like picking locks, applying poison delicately, being at all discreet and stealing things with anyone even paying vague attention seem like things either beyond their intelligence or limited because of their size. Even skills like hunt and bandage beyond apprentice seem like something they'd not be very good at.

I agree.

[Barsook]

So, basicly warriors and rangers are  the only choices for HG's, by going this way?

[Mazy]

I would recommend we also put in the stipulation that half-giants no longer be able to select "Merchant" as a guild the same way they can't select "elementalist" as a guild.

I always find the few half-giant merchants I see in game to be very jarring.

Personal preference.

(We have hard-coded limitations on races already. City elves, for example, can't be rangers or outdoorsmen. I'm just proposing a similar one for half-giants based on their natural predispositions and how I personally interpret them.)

I love half-giants, but I agree with no half-giant pickpockets, burglars, and assassins. Half-giant Merchant is fine to me.

I can imagine a witless twit being able to copy things and remember crafting basics more than I can see them ever lockpicking or pickpocketing properly. I would be wary to accept half-giant innovations unless someone else gave them the idea and coaches them along. It's not that jarring that a half-giant can make stuff like crappy clothes, pots, and spears if they put their life's effort towards it and have witnessed it before.

I personally find the existence of Whirans most jarring. It's not even the deathspells they have/used to have either. I hate anything and everything that can magickally fly around in a low-magick setting. I don't even mind the concept, it's just the idea of someone jetting around like Superman pisses me off more than any half-giant ever did.

[hyzhenhok]

There goes my character concept of a half-giant burglar who roleplays his lockpicking knocking doors down by force.

[nauta]

Half-giants should have no skills except two_handed and skinning!

(More seriously, I think the low wisdom on a half-giant -should- mean that even if they do have a load of skills from whatever guild, they'll take forever to get anywhere with them.  Although, I bet in practice that's not the case.  Perhaps cap everything at journeyman.)

[Warsong]

...it's unrealistic for people to know basics of stealth in city and wilderness settings?

It's unrealistic for desert elves to have city stealth, pickpockets to have wilderness stealth, etc.

I'd say no character should have both. Or at least it shouldn't be governed by your subguild, perhaps rather by your starting location. So few subguilds are worth considering when there's one that lets you stealth in whatever terrain you normally can't. It's too much of a benefit, almost nothing can compete with it. Giving your rogue character the ability to sneak and hide perfectly in the desert, or your ranger or d-elf in the city, is simply too much of a benefit, and it's clear that nearly everybody chooses this. I think only gladiator is even a worthwhile alternative, and that subguild is frankly overvalued compared to the rest.