Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[Rokal]

To my knowledge watch goes to journeyman on everyone by default.

im sure as time goes on the Subguilds will get adjusted some as the imms find a proper balance/get feedback

But we do got to remember that subguilds are meant for flavor, too!

[BadSkeelz]

Flavor comes second to code when skill failures could get you killed.

[Rokal]

Flavor comes second to code when skill failures could get you killed.

But when you fail and live, the flavor comes to life and makes much more awesome RP.


The greatest stories characters can have can stem from their failures and how they survive them.

Its very anti-RP to think fail = instant death.

Its rarely been the case for me.

[BadSkeelz]

If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.

That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.

[Synthesis]

If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.

That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.

Skill levels were visible long before Rogues and Cutpurses even existed.

The extended subguilds haven't been in play long enough for there to be any really good balancing-type data, probably.

[Rokal]

If you want to roleplay failures, you're free to pick subguilds that don't give you the skills. I prefer my subguilds give me the ability to do things, and then roleplay from there.

Oh yeah I understand that entirely.

That said, I'm assuming the currently displayed skill levels are the same as when they were hidden. So jman-capped Rogues and Cutpurses aren't anything new. If that skill cap is too low presumably it would have become apparent by now. I can't say personally because I haven't played either of them.

Yeah, I agree with you here on this too, as a relatively new player (Close to my second year), I haven't touched the extended subguilds much at all, so I can't make a comment on how it performs.

[Molten Heart]

Journeyman stealth is probably good enough to hide from NPCs. While not being virtually invisible, it's worth something.

[Molten Heart]

Whoops, double post.

[Desertman]

Journeyman level wilderness sneak and hide is useful. It allows you to hunt animals that would otherwise flee from you pretty easily.

It is actually reasonably useful to a ranger/hunter.

City based sneak/hide that doesn't Master, in my opinion, based on how you will typically use it (against other PC's almost exclusively in situations where you NEED it to not fail) is more or less a deathtrap.

[Lizzie]

Journeyman stealth is probably good enough to hide from NPCs. While not being virtually invisible, it's worth something.

Not having stealth at all is also hella fun when you're playing a character who thinks she's being very clever by sneaking past people, even though you (the player) know damned well she's not fooling anyone. I've done that on a few of my characters.

[Rathustra]

I think I messed up the actual skill levels on the Rogue and Cutpurse. I will investigate tomorrow and update the help file as needed. First glance suggests I don't know how skill levels work.

[Dresan]

Due to the way skills work, its often better to have one advanced skill, than two skills at journeyman. I've already had a high agility pickpocket die due to a fail steal with the skill mastered. I loved that character's personality so much that even now I curse the day I chose him to be a pickpocket, he could have been anything else. Since a lot of the rogue and cutpurse skills are potential game enders for the characters using them, it would be great to see some of them being a bit more reliable, even if that means bumping the sub-guild one more karma.

Glad to hear its being looked at though.

[John]

I'd say the problem is with the pickpocket. Many of the extended subguilds are designed as "mini-guilds". So we have the mini- fighter subguilds, the mini-merchant subguilds, etc. the rogue (to me) seems to be a mini-pickpocket which (many of us) believed is an inherently flawed guild. So therefore there's issues with the mini-pickpocket subguild. Ideally once the guilds are revised, one final sanity-check will be done on the subguilds.

[solera]

My developing rogue had advanced sneak. Not a c-elf 

[Synthesis]

My developing rogue had advanced sneak. Not a c-elf 

Even on a c-elf, advanced sneak/hide is pretty useless.

I had a warrior/rogue c-elf a while back and it was a big "meh."  I had maybe a 75% chance to successfully hide at all, and I couldn't sneak+hide more than maybe 3 rooms at a time before failing something.

The most useful aspect, honestly, was tricking guild-sniffers into thinking I was a newbie c-elf burglar, since I used slashing weapons and was failing sneak and hide all the time, but using it with some success.

Surprise, motherfucker.

[Rathustra]

After actually taking the time to check the numbers, yes - both cutpurse and rogue have all their skills at advanced.

[Quell]

After actually taking the time to check the numbers, yes - both cutpurse and rogue have all their skills at advanced.

So happy to see that Cutpurse can actually get advanced at cutting purses

Might also want to look at the basic guard subguild. Unless that shield_use proficiency was lowered in the overhaul, it should be advanced as well.

[Dresan]

Cutpurse is looking tempting, though I still wish there was advanced sap somewhere. I might give it a shot though someday though, might be something I'm missing since poison seems more reliable.  

Advanced hide and sneak is reliable enough that with the right investments you can pull off a few interesting things, and with pick and advanced climb, I'd bite with the right class/guild/race.

I still advocate slipknife getting something other than sap, but that is mostly prep work for the guilds discussion in the future. If slipknife only had master hide and sneak, i'd still pick it.

In short, they all look good now.

[Case]

The link to the Guard subguild on the website goes to the helpfile for guard, not subguild_guard.

[shpadoinkle]

Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.

Does this apply to current characters? If you have a hunter, are you just going to have fletchery and outdoor sneak taken from your skillset? Would you have noticed this happened already if it was going to? Or is this more of a "all hunters made going forward" kind of thing. This is the third time this question has been posed now (twice by me, and once by Jihelu I believe) and I haven't yet seen an answer. Apologies if I have missed the answer - but I just went and reread the entire thread to make sure.

[manipura]

They're retroactive. If your PC has a changed subguild they will have added or removed skills

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50648.0.html

[shpadoinkle]

Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move? I made my character with a particular guild/subguild combination for a reason. I worked hard getting particular skills up and then I find I log in and my character is not only permanently changed through no action of my own...but my character is now fundamentally broken. Is there no way a current PC can say "Nope. Please just leave my character the way they are"? Or switch to a subguild that contains the skills my original subguild had and was thus the reason for my picking that subguild to begin with?

[Majikal]

Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move? I made my character with a particular guild/subguild combination for a reason. I worked hard getting particular skills up and then I find I log in and my character is not only permanently changed through no action of my own...but my character is now fundamentally broken. Is there no way a current PC can say "Nope. Please just leave my character the way they are"? Or switch to a subguild that contains the skills my original subguild had and was thus the reason for my picking that subguild to begin with?

If you're this unsettled about it open up some communication with staff, they have a tool for that. Admin+ can edit your skills, it's in the realm of very real possibility that the end of your horrible suffering is one request away.

Does anyone else find altering a current PC without consent of the player kind of a dick move?

And no, I think most players understand that their subguild being altered was just a side effect of the code change, a necessary step in progress. Unfortunately you can't alter a subguild without by effect altering all the pc's in game that use it.

[shpadoinkle]

If you're this unsettled about it open up some communication with staff, they have a tool for that. Admin+ can edit your skills, it's in the realm of very real possibility that the end of your horrible suffering is one request away.

Half my point was I shouldn't have to ask to have my character stay the same way he's been for the last two years. He should just stay that way. But thanks for the snark. Reminds me why I don't post on the GDB.

[shpadoinkle]

And to be clear: I applaud staff's initiative to fix up the subguilds. Don't get me wrong there. I just very much dislike the approach when it comes to current characters. As a GM, I would never consider doing this to one of my players's characters. If nothing else, it makes absolutely no sense from a roleplaying perspective.