How about making peek work on unconcious people?

[TEH BANDIT]

Or being able to search them, at least.  If I am playing a mugger that dosen't have peek, and I knock someone out... the only way I can be sure I'm getting what I want is to kill them and look in their corpse.

steal 1. guy dosent work and  isn't very ic at all
after a few things, it says they dont have that item, even though they still have stuff.

its going to suck when I have to kill someone because of it

[Agent_137]

I feel no pity, for some reason.

[TEH BANDIT]

What?  You will when I have to fucking kill your character because I'm hungry and you might have somthing I can pawn.

[spawnloser]

Easy fix.

Knock them out.
Look at them.
Take any item worn their cloak, backpack, belts...you know, the items most commonly seen as wearable containers.
Walk away with your phat loot.

Editted to add: You may want to look into the difficulty level for using steal on an unconscious person.

[Anonymous]

...Riiiiight.  Except they might have a sweet sword or container in their inventory I can't steal, for some reason, which makes no sense whatsoever.

[Anarchy]

Well have you any idea how fast mugging happens? Its *whap* snatch and RUN. You do not want -anyone- to see you. Nor do you want a group of 'rinthers mugging you AND your victim.

If - 1, you dont know what your searching for.
or 2, you dont have peek, then

RP as if you rushed to take what you could, and over looked some of the smaller things. Oh dear, you over looked that sword, or gem, so what? Big deal. It happens all the time. Nobody gets what they want if its just a random mugging.

[Anonymous]

It's not smart to assume any situation.  How the hell do you know where I am at?

If I blackjacked some guy in an ally, I'd check all his pockets in his pants, and in his jacket.  Guess how long that would take?  30 seconds or less, and I might find a wallet loaded with cash.

Lets say a raider jumps someone in the wastes and knocks him out, but for whatever reason that they're allowed to have, decides he dosent want to kill him.  Is there a SINGLE reason he wouldn't be able to search the guy for stuff?  It is extreemly ooc to have to kill someone to search them.

I suggest non-skilled peek should always fail, unless the victim is asleep or unconcious.


If thats what you want though, my chars always going to have an ic reason to kill the people I mug.  Thats real fun for everyone else, isn't it.  Whatever, if thats how the code requires us to play.  Your loss, not mine.

[Anonymous]

One more thing (i should register), things in his inventory wouldn't even be like his wallet hidden in his pants.  Its like a guy walking away from an atm with cash in his hand, or a bag of groceries... you don't think the muggers going to be able to grab that?

wtf

[mansa]

Assume you're in a hurry.  You've managed to knock them out, and you have 10 seconds to grab what you can.  You steal the obvious things, the belt, the backpack, the cloak..   and maybe his rings, and then you leave.

If you have more time on your hands, why don't you drag his sorry ass back to a room or alleyway, and sit there, and wait for him to wake up.  Threaten him.  He's half dead anyways.  He'll do anything you want, as long as he survives.

Break his leg, if you have to.  Create a torture scene.  

But if you don't have enough time to do that, then you don't have enough time to check every single pocket for the 'good' loot, and be satifidied with the loot you already have.

[TEH BANDIT]

No, you don't seem to understand.

If I am out in the wastes, with no one around as far as the eye can see, why should I make every precious second count?  Sure I won't be dallying around all day by the guy.  Hes going to wake up, and he might have buddies miles away?, but I'm going to take what I want.


It is not that hard to understand.
It could be a pile of armor a giant battle axe, a bulging sack or two.
The fact that they aren't wearing it can make it thief proof, no matter what it is.

Why should you always have to roleplay you are in a hurry, even when it makes no real sense?

What makes more sense.
Seeing the big, shiney, expensive two-handed obsidian battleaxe on the guy you just knocked out

-OR-

Not seeing it, because it was in his inventory.
Is there any reason not to change the code?

[Marauder Moe]

Delivery aside, this isn't that bad an idea.  Perheps just give it a long delay for those who don't actually have the skill.

[Lazloth]

Why would you need an especially long delay?  Unconscious people are essentially nosaved anyway.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, because people who don't steal things to survive probably haven't gotten the whole pat-them-down-and-search-all-pokets-really-fast thing quite right.

[TEH BANDIT]

For it does indeed take years of training to stick your hands in some guys pants pockets, and his jackets pockets without taking an hour.  Agreed.

[Bestatte]

Ya know - like Marauder Moe says, "delivery aside" this isn't a bad idea. Make the peek skill work the same as the steal skill for unconscious people. Anyone can steal, anyone can peek, if their victim is unconscious.

It's important to remember also though, Bandit..that being in someone's "inventory" doesn't mean it's in their hands. In fact it means it is NOT in their hands, because we have the "wield" and "hold" hand positions for that purpose.

Inventory items, just like in many other games, are assumed to be in virtual non-existent pockets that don't have flaps to close. So yes - you probably CAN see those items, but no, they're not just dangling off the guy's fingertips ready for you to nab.

[TEH BANDIT]

word

Inventory items, just like in many other games, are assumed to be in virtual non-existent pockets that don't have flaps to close. So yes - you probably CAN see those items, but no, they're not just dangling off the guy's fingertips ready for you to nab.

If that were the case, Half-Giants would be able to carry much more than normal people in their inventory.  After all, their pockets are a lot bigger.  I've always thought your inventory is what you are carrying... not exactally what is in your hands.  You can carry a lot of stuff that you aren't exactally grasping with your hands.

Fighting and such would be near impossible with stuff in your 'inventory' realistically.  It's just one of thoes things.[/i]

[EvilRoeSlade]

Most of the time people don't have anything in their inventory.  Unless you're deadbent on stripping them completely naked, I think that things are fine as they are.

Also, I think it would be a bad precedent to make peek work similar to steal on sleeping victims.  The way steal works on sleeping victims is already wildly unrealistic in many instances.  And besides, why play a pickpocket at all when a character with a high sap skill (a skill which is available to a subclass) is all that you need?

[Lazloth]

Oh get real.
Why not remove sap because you can simply kill someone instead?

There are different risks associated between the methods a mugger and a pickpocket employ, where authorities are concerned and elsewhere.  To your other argument, how is stealing from an unconscious person 'unrealistic'?

[jstorrie]

I see nothing wrong with allowing anyone to peek at an unconscious character.

I would, however, like there to be a separate echo for it, if you are unskilled, along the lines of 'such-and-such pats so-and-so down'.  Skilled peekers could, of course, peek away as usual.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Oh get real.
Why not remove sap because you can simply kill someone instead

Now why would we want to do a thing like that?  I apologize for refusing to argue a point that I never endorsed.

There are different risks associated between the methods a mugger and a pickpocket employ, where authorities are concerned and elsewhere.

And I like the idea that a pickpocket might be able to snatch something that a mugger might miss, even though a mugger tends to get away with more ill-gotten gains.

To your other argument, how is stealing from an unconscious person 'unrealistic'?

Let's take a look at what I said again.

The way steal works on sleeping victims is already wildly unrealistic in many instances.

As it stands, a warrior can steal the pants from a sleeping victim without anybody observing the act.  An act more difficult than any that a pickpocket could perform on a waking body, in my oh so humble opinion.

And now we want to give the warrior the ability to not only steal a sleeping person's pants, but also DISCREETLY rifle through all their belongings and take thorough stock of their inventory, an act that this warrior is currently incapable of doing DISCREETLY, while her victim is conscious.

The way the current code works, this is a step in the wrong direction.

[TEH BANDIT]

azloth wrote:
There are different risks associated between the methods a mugger and a pickpocket employ, where authorities are concerned and elsewhere.


And I like the idea that a pickpocket might be able to snatch something that a mugger might miss, even though a mugger tends to get away with more ill-gotten gains.

ZALANTHAS TO EVILROESLADE, COME IN EVILROESLADE
Try this on for size.
I am about to climb down a building into a popular street of a town.  I remove my sack, my weaps from my belt, and any expensive gear I have.  I fall, and get knocked out.

Guy comes along and sees me.  Aw, hes near naked, not even worth my time.  Guy goes on.

I wake up later, put my stuff back on, and go on my merry way.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Errr... okay.  I still maintain my points.

Though if an unskilled peeker's effort echoed to the entire room, and the victim as well, and incriminated the unskilled peeker if the flag in the room was appropriate, that would be better.

[TEH BANDIT]

ugh! I  am so regestering today!

continued:  Lets say the guy DOES try to rob me blind.  All he can steal from me is the few pieces of crap im wearing.

It would be very easy to rem stuff a short time before doing anything that might involve loss of conciousness, even if you just remove your pack to... 'root around in it for a sec'.

[TEH BANDIT]

Your 'points' have nothing to do with this thread.
We're not talking about steal on sleeping but concious people.

We're talking about being able to search unconcious people.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The code doesn't recognize the difference between sleeping and unconscious people, therefore my points have a lot to do with this thread.

As it stands, I haven't seen anybody strip naked when they were getting ready to use the way.

But I've seen and heard accounts of many, many people who WERE stripped naked when they decided to bunk down in the Gaj.

[Lazloth]

...and incriminated the unskilled peeker if the flag in the room was appropriate

Why incriminated?  I presume you're suggesting a wanted flag?

[TEH BANDIT]

go away and start a new thread


They could change the code, or code a new command.
It would be worth coding a new command to pat down people.  If they were sleeping, they would wake up.  It would be a bit time consuming and everyone would see it happening.
frisk?


It's worth it.

[Anonymous]

I'd rather knocked out people drop what they have in their inventory than to change peek, but I've never liked the inventory system here since it allows for someone to walk around with 5 scrab shells in their inventory and still draw a two-handed trident off of their back.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Why incriminated? I presume you're suggesting a wanted flag?

That's right.

go away and start a new thread

Make me.

They could change the code, or code a new command.
It would be worth coding a new command to pat down people.  If they were sleeping, they would wake up.  It would be a bit time consuming and everyone would see it happening.
frisk?

If the code was changed I would support this idea.  But the code has to be changed before something like this happens.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd rather knocked out people drop what they have in their inventory than to change peek, but I've never liked the inventory system here since it allows for someone to walk around with 5 scrab shells in their inventory and still draw a two-handed trident off of their back.

I can't say I love it either, but at least they'll fight like shit if they do that.

And yeah, that's actually a good idea.  They should drop everything in their inventory along with any weapons they're wielding.  A mugger who doesn't have the time to pat his victim down can just type get all and run.

[jhunter]

I'd rather knocked out people drop what they have in their inventory than to change peek, but I've never liked the inventory system here since it allows for someone to walk around with 5 scrab shells in their inventory and still draw a two-handed trident off of their back.

They'd probably be pretty encumbered. And the alternative sucks shit for playability.

Thumbs up on the dropping everything in your inventory as well if knocked out though.

[Cenghiz]

You're joking I know... You must be joking. If a seasoned mugger knocks out an elf, he would probably kill the elf to be sure he hasn't any more packs from now on
Why shouldn't peek autosucceed on unconscious anyway? It's easier to kill. 'Get all body' is much easier and killing has a short lag. With an approtiate echo shown to the victim and the room and a fine delay, some players may want to stop killing anything they knocked out.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The kill command will cause its user to become incriminated if appropriate.  I don't begrudge it.

[TEH BANDIT]

If you drop everything when you get knocked out, no one will EVER have anything in their inventory.  Thats no fun for pickpockets!

EvilRoeSlade, I seriously believe this is worth coding.  I know how busy they are, but this would be an extreemly positive change.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you drop everything when you get knocked out, no one will EVER have anything in their inventory.  Thats no fun for pickpockets!

I'd still have stuff in my inventory.  And pickpockets aren't necessarily limited to ones inventory.

EvilRoeSlade, I seriously believe this is worth coding.  I know how busy they are, but this would be an extreemly positive change.

Yes, I'd agree that it's worth coding as long as both peak and steal triggered the appropriate echos and crime-flags when unskilled thieves did it.  I don't know if it will be coded, but I'd like to see it.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, pickpocket was a terrible word to pick considering they are a class of master thieves.

I meant your average sucky noob lowish-skilled thief.
I know how hype after my first sucessfull steal with a subclass thief, it was a lumberjacks primary axe.  My hands were shaking as I slinked off.

[Lazloth]

I'd rather knocked out people drop what they have in their inventory than to change peek, but I've never liked the inventory system here since it allows for someone to walk around with 5 scrab shells in their inventory and still draw a two-handed trident off of their back.

I like.  But I'm still for peeking at unconscious people; maybe "patting them down" publically is fine, but there's no reason this should get the aggressor incriminated imho.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I like.  But I'm still for peeking at unconscious people; maybe "patting them down" publically is fine, but there's no reason this should get the aggressor incriminated imho.

Why not?  If I saw some dude patting down an unconscious person and I was a soldier, I would sure as hell grab them.

[TEH BANDIT]

Then it is illegal to hug, by that logic.

If they aren't taking anything, or moving them, or threatening them, then I don't see how it would be illegal.

You could so easily play it off like you were trying to help them, see if they were ok, wake them up, look for medicine that they might have to take... ect.

I find you GUILTY of touching that man!
I was bandaging him!!!!
*slice*

[Cenghiz]

They're not talking about bandaging dude... They're talking about examining the inventory. What will you do if someone dips a hand in your pockets? Wait till he steals?
And sorry about post above. I was only thinking about the desert.

[TEH BANDIT]

They're not talking about bandaging dude... They're talking about examining the inventory. What will you do if someone dips a hand in your pockets? Wait till he steals?

Seeing as I am unconcious, yes.
You can act like you are trying to help the guy while you are actually checking him.  While an echo might say somthing to the effect of 'guy searches guy', you could rp it off like that easily.
IRL you could do that.  It dosen't matter, I'm just saying.  It shouldn't be illegal to check an unconcious person.

[jhunter]

I'd have to agree with this.

At least if it wasn't a coded crim flag for searching an unconscious person then it would be possible to -attempt- to rp it off as something innocent...whether you are believed or not would be a different story.

[Canadian Beaver]

ERS, since you seem to be the main opposition to this idea, let's look at how steal currently works on unconscious or sleeping people.

It's ALREADY in game, so the imms thought it was realistic enough. Now, when stealing from a sleeping/unconscious person, there is A) no coded echo and B) no wanted flag.

Now, if stealing doesn't give me a wanted flag, why would you suggest making peek set someone wanted? Peek is only looking/patting someone down, not the actual act of taking things.

If someone is sleeping, about 99% of the time, the reason they're sleeping is because they got the crap beat out of them and lost a lot of blood. In this beaten up, blood loss weakened state they're not going to notice anything, notice how once you're asleep with a low health you can't wake up even if you wanted to? Because you're out cold and your body is trying to recover from some trauma.

I say it's a great idea and would definitely help out muggers so they can avoid killing someone.

[Anonymous]

It's ALREADY in game, so the imms thought it was realistic enough.

You can stick a twenty cord long plank in your pack providing the plank's weight is low enough.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean that it is necessarily realistic and blessed from on high.

All in all I'm not really opposed to the idea of letting peek work on unconscious people, just wanted to chime in that being able to do something doesn't mean it's right.  Especially in regards to stealing things from a sleeping person you couldn't do unless they were passed out.

[sjanimal]

like Bestatte and Raider Moe said, delivery aside this is a great idea.

It maybe would solve two problems:

A) Cause more people to raid (which some people have asked for more of)

and

B) Make the world more difficult (especially on the sands, which a lot of the hardgore gamer vetarans have also requested.)

[Bestatte]

It isn't really that it would make it harsher - in fact, it would make it -less- harsh. Because at the present time, the only way to find out if someone has something in their inventory, if you don't have the peek skill, and if your victim is unconscious, is to kill them.

If someone is unarmed because they just "removed" their massive deth-blade of doom and destrukshun..like to forage for a pretty pink posie or something...

No way in hell am I gonna miss that on someone's inventory after I beat him over the head with a big stick.

But if I want to NOT miss that - I gotta kill him. And that's kinda silly and is MUCH harsher than using "peek," seeing that he has this big massive deth blade of doom and destrukshun, and hefting it up from under the guy's armpit.

[Tlaloc]

I realize that this might not be an optimal solution: but its possible you could wish up, and get help searching a person. Something along the lines of: "I just mugged/found this unconscious guy in the desert, and am pilfering his belongings. Can someone help me see if there is anything worth taking in his inventory?"

It may not always work 100% of the time...and its likely we would expect you to roleplay and emote through the situation (in fact, probably be roleplaying and emoting through the -whole- situtation), but it is an option.

[TEH BANDIT]

That got me thinking,

Does it make me a bad person if I would rather pk the persons char than leave mine vulnrable for so long?

[Armaddict]

As I've always said, which is debated among players, so don't just take my advice...but if it's IC for your character to kill them, do it.  Don't search for the OOC reasons to -not- kill them.  Just do as the character would do.

[Anarchy]

That got me thinking,

Does it make me a bad person if I would rather pk the persons char than leave mine vulnrable for so long?

You do what your PC has gotta do. Is your PC a ruthless murderer? If so, fine, PK the person. Is your PC a greedy sneaky little shit of a thief? If so, fine, mug folk. as long as its IC FOR YOUR PC TO DO. its not going to make you look bad.

But if you are, for example a meek little slave girl, who wears little ribbons in her hair - it would then be unrealistic for you to kill and mug people.

Im having trouble following your train of thought, in one line, you comment that in the desert you have all the time in the world, then in the next you say somthing like "He may have friends only a mile away" - thats right. He MIGHT - and they just MIGHT be coming over that sand dune any moment, with that nagging in your mind, are you sure you are going to find that lump of metal in the hidden crotch pocket. Why do you feel the need to take EVERYTHING from your victims? I really hope you dont strip them naked.

But, for those who remove their valuables before getting knocked out - Shame on you. But on the other side of the coin - Shame on the thieves who resort to OOC actions just to counter "twinkish" victims.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That got me thinking,

Does it make me a bad person if I would rather pk the persons char than leave mine vulnrable for so long?

And ICly?  It doesn't take any longer to loot an unconscious person then a dead person.  Besides, the less blood/feces/urine on their gear, the more valuable it is.

I think that a raider who strips everything from a body (breathing or otherwise) is just as bad as a burglar who takes EVERYTHING from a house that they've picked the lock to.  You should at least take the time to drag the body to safety if you're going to do that.

[Kalden]

The inventory should be shown when you look at someone. As it stands, it's rather OOC and annoying that you can't manage to see what people are carrying.

Peek would still have plenty of use in looking inside people's containers. This would have advantanges for sub-class thieves/thugs, burglars, assassins, ect, and would be FAR more realistic.

Focus on realism, not cool perks and skillz.

And ICly? It doesn't take any longer to loot an unconscious person then a dead person.

Heh. OOCly, however, it takes a hell of a lot longer to loot an unconscious person if you don't have the steal skill. Long-ass delays.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You should still only kill them if your character has a specific reason to make sure they're dead.

[Anonymous]

Im having trouble following your train of thought, in one line, you comment that in the desert you have all the time in the world, then in the next you say somthing like "He may have friends only a mile away" - thats right. He MIGHT - and they just MIGHT be coming over that sand dune any moment, with that nagging in your mind, are you sure you are going to find that lump of metal in the hidden crotch pocket. Why do you feel the need to take EVERYTHING from your victims? I really hope you dont strip them naked.

And MAYBE my character decides having food for the next few days is worth the risk that he has buddies miles away.  You people need to stop assuming circumstances

[Vettrock]

If someone is sleeping, about 99% of the time, the reason they're sleeping is because they got the crap beat out of them and lost a lot of blood. In this beaten up, blood loss weakened state they're not going to notice anything, notice how once you're asleep with a low health you can't wake up even if you wanted to? Because you're out cold and your body is trying to recover from some trauma.

I say it's a great idea and would definitely help out muggers so they can avoid killing someone.

The problem is not the victim not waking up, it that no-one else in the room is going to see me taking the pants off the sleeping guy?  Soldiers see me stripping naked a sleeping guy and aren't going to care, but I yell thief thief and suddenly they are all over me?