Listen...

[Ayashah]

I know there has been a lot of discussion on listen and this didnt belong in the other thread so I started a new one. Personally, I think listen is way too strong a skill and hampers realistic rp. People are oocly afraid to say things in public because of the maxed listen skill being used. Granted, those people using listen should be trusted to use their common sense in what they SHOULD overhear in lieu of knowing all they overheard due to the 'code' allowing it.

There has been talk of how listen could be changed to 'listen <pc>' or 'listen table' to make it more realistic. I dont know what it would take to code that or if it's feasible to do. I have a different suggestion.

Again, I dont know if this is feasible to code or not but just a thought of mine. Is there a way to flag rooms 'noisy'? This flag would cut everyone's listening skill by half or such. So if someone is in a tavern they would only get 'blurps' of conversations and not whole sentences. Or not who said what because truthfully, unless someone was watching said person, they wouldnt know who said what. They might determine by accents and so forth but sitting at different tables and locations should make the automatic 'who' less determinable.

This sort of flag could be adjusted so that those city folks would be better at hearing in town but worse out in the wilds as they arent USE to listening to things out there and vice versa. Those that would be use to the wilds and pick up things easily would have a harder time in the city as all those confusing, loud, city grebbers would make things harder to hear.

Just a few thoughts on listen.  

[Quirk]

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ... like so:

The pink-eyed baby-faced man says at your table, in sirhish:
   "My feet are killing me. I need to get some new boots. I hear Poddle Kadius is selling some good ones."

and the listener hears:
The pink-eyed baby-faced man says at his table, in sirhish:
   "... killing ... need to get ... Poddle Kadius ... good ones."

However, discussing private matters in a public place is a stupid thing to do, and it deserves to be penalised. Intrigue operates because people find out other people's plans. The clever know to keep their secrets under wraps, the not so clever blether about them where they can be heard. I've no sympathy for players who do things that are ICly foolish complaining about their consequences. It doesn't hamper RP at all; the very opposite, it allows conflicts to grow with parties who have a vested interest in disturbing your plans.

Quirk

[Ayashah]

I wasnt talking about 'intrigue' talks in a tavern though. Regular conversations where its nothing secret but others might take it as whining or such when they only know the part they heard. As in someone sitting at the bar and pcs sitting over at a table across the room. One shouldnt be able to really make out what the others are saying as they are across a busy tavern. Anyone that openly talks of things like, killing joe blow, in a tavern deserves what they get. Shoot, some people can hear whispers so even if they are 'trying' to be discrete on any subject, important or not, people can hear them across the bar. Granted, if someone is whispering from the bar to a couch and I overhear that, I will take it as someone not whispering as a whisper going across that distance without being heard is ludicrous.

I would rather see it broken up like what Quirk showed. Nothing complete but something that might be taken wrong. That would be much more realistic.

[Forest Junkie]

Shoot, some people can hear whispers so even if they are 'trying' to be discrete on any subject, important or not, people can hear them across the bar.

If you don't like people overhearing your discrete banter, then it may be best to take your secrets elsewhere.

I like listen the way it is. No change.

[Boggis]

Listen as it stands is vastly overpowered. Hearing every conversation in the room simultaenously? Hear a whisper in a busy tavern? Its insane. Fixing it to make it realistic would no doubt be painful to code but I think it really should be required to be targeted at a table and depending on your skill you might well miss a number of words in a sentence as it works in other muds. This would be far more realistic and it could be argued then that the level of noise in a place isn't so important as you might be incorporating lip-reading into your listening as well. But that couldn't be argued with the way the skill stands at the moment.

[Forest Junkie]

This is Zalanthas. There are persons trained, perhaps even mutated genetically (ie desert elves, halflings, gith, dwarves, even humans) to the point that they have heightened senses which go beyond the scope of our real world "human".

Again, I say it's fine the way it is.

[Lazloth]

The skill's been bantered before; current form it's twink paradise imho.

I want to see an active listen and..

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ...

[Quirk]

This is Zalanthas. There are persons trained, perhaps even mutated genetically (ie desert elves, halflings, gith, dwarves, even humans) to the point that they have heightened senses which go beyond the scope of our real world "human".

Again, I say it's fine the way it is.

Unfortunately, it's entirely inconsistent. Some people can pick out every word of every conversation held in the noisy bar-room they're in. Some people can't hear anything unless it's shouted across the room or said at their table. There is no middle ground. This makes any quibbles in favour of the listen skill's realism moot. Ideally, you'd see a progression from being able to catch only tiny snatches of conversation at neighbouring tables to being able to follow most of the conversations going on around you. The way the skill works currently makes no IC sense, particularly at low levels of the listen skill when the character is fluctuating back and forth between hearing nothing and hearing everything while attempting to listen.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

save for the guy who is mutated to get uber-listen, how do you know?  Listen is overpowered.  Make it Listen PC or Listen TABLE with dropped ... words.

[Armaddict]

I don't mind it.  Not at all.  I play all sorts of characters.  A subclass gets it.  Several classes get it.  It's not exactly an exclusive skill, so if you want to have a weapon against listeners, listen back.

In Zalanthas, so much is based around gathering information.  SO MUCH.  You put in the other way, and spying becomes unreliable and nearly useless.  Particularly for a newer character.

If you want to make things harsh as hell on newer characters, by all means, push for it.  But right now, things are set up completely fine.

[Anonymous]

In Zalanthas, so much is based around gathering information.  SO MUCH.  You put in the other way, and spying becomes unreliable and nearly useless.  Particularly for a newer character.

I disagree completely.  It is exactly for the cause of spying that listen should get changed, IMHO, to either target a table or a PC or drop words or both.

As it stands now too much goes unsaid in public because in the back of people's minds they know the listen skill is going to get them.  If there was less of a chance what they had to say would be overheard in its entirety then I think people would be more inclined to speak about some of the not-so-sensitive goings on in public while speaking quietly over a table in the middle of a busy tavern.

I'd liken it raiding.  If raiders were given a skill that made them able to raid anyone passing a given stretch of road eventually people will stop riding that road alone, sticking to large caravans or groups.  The end result is that an overpowered raider skill would put raiders out of business.  It is precisely because raiding isn't an exact science that people brave the roads alone.

If listen is toned down, more people will speak freely in taverns about something other than who is hiring.

[WhiteRanger]

ForestJunkie has a perfectly valid argument, who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base  from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of. Keep in mind also that our PC's are not your average joe schmoe salt sifter that can barely lift an obsidian sword, we are the elite of the elite, the "heroes" if you will, of this world. In most cases (Yes I know some of you will say "But I have poor wisdom" and if you do, then roleplay accordingly) the average pc has a far higher intelligence than the dung shoveler next door. This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I was once told by a certain immortal that a certain clan just may have a psion watching all members at all times, and thats how they know exactly what goes on with my pc at all times....and if that is a legitimate excuse...then enhanced auditory systems, is definantly in the feasable grid.

[Armaddict]

If raiders were raiding a road constantly anyway, I should -hope- people learn to avoid it, or else they'd be dumbasses.  Liken that to listen....hmm.

[Ayashah]

If you don't like people overhearing your discrete banter, then it may be best to take your secrets elsewhere.

Again, as I stated before, Forest Junkie, its not about having a discrete conversation. If my pc wanted to be discrete, they would take it elsewhere. Its about overhearing every little conversation while you are, and would be, focused on your own conversation going on at the place you are sitting.

I really like the idea of listen table, listen person, etc. I wasnt sure if that was codeable or if a room flag would be great. AND, to coin a phrase, just because CODE allows you to do something, it doesnt make it IC to do.

[Anonymous]

If raiders were raiding a road constantly anyway, I should -hope- people learn to avoid it, or else they'd be dumbasses.  Liken that to listen....hmm.

The point isn't that they are guarding a stretch of road, its that they are nearly omniscient about who is passing the road based on the imaginary skill I referred to.  That's where the comparison to listen bears out.  People don't talk openly because listen is guaranteed to get them.  Remove that guarantee and people will be less inclined to spend 100 coins to rent the back room to talk about some of the lesser secrets.

[Armaddict]

Again, as I stated before, Forest Junkie, its not about having a discrete conversation. If my pc wanted to be discrete, they would take it elsewhere.

So what's the point?  It won't change anything anyway, in this case.  They'll just catch less of useless banter.

[Mr.Camel]

As it should be.

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ...

I like. And the previously proposed idea of 'listen <target table, pc>'.

[Armaddict]

Seems like some extra coding with very little benefit, to me.

[Incognito]

I think listen is one of the best skill/talent/weapon (call it what you may) that some classes have. To the extent that it is one of the only skills that particular classes or even particular roles might use at all! (Think of a tavern lounger a la Fale - often involving nothing else but sitting in taverns with listen on).

Those few classes and/or roles would be immensely harder to play and much more boring to go through, if this skill was toned down.

Personally, when I have listen on, and am able to listen to multiple conversations in a bar, like RL, I am usually following one conversation for a short period, to see if I hear anything interesting, if not, I switch to paying attention to the conversation on another table. I would never log the entire thing and then go back and minutely piece together each conversation.

In effect its much like RL, you sit in a bar and can hear everything around you, but you pay attention to what you are interested in only and the rest goes in from one ear and out of the other - literally!

People might not realise it but asking for listen to be toned down is almost akin to asking for a combat skill to be toned down or a magickal spell to be toned down! Think of it as a special skill/talent that certain folks have, but also realise that those folks might be highly deficient in other areas also.

Personally I love the listen skill as it is, and would be sorely disappointed if it is toned down - to the point that it would actually make me think twice before playing social roles centered around the taverns.

Although, I would not be averse to having it toned down for certain classes who are supposed to be experts at listening to outdoor sounds, when they are indoors, and vice versa. Similar to other skills which have city and outdoor versions.

But thats just my .02
Incog

[jstorrie]

I don't think having words dropped would 'cripple' listen.  Presumably, those characters with a high cap on listen could hone their skills to the point of picking up everything said.

[Armaddict]

So...now people are just going to sit in taverns and -powergame- listen?

At least you don't have to, right now.  It's a passive sort of thing, just keep it in the background.

If you change it, you'll have people actually -practicing- it.

"No, I can't risk getting into anything big yet.  My listen isn't maxxed, I'm working on it."

I really do -not- see what the big complaint is about.

[Agent_137]

people moaning about realism when the problem isn't even twinkable.

I think this is one of those areas you should leave to the player.

[X-D]

I like listen as is, it is not over powered in any way. Those that think it is, well, I can only say, -try- harder IRL to do the same things you think are impossible right now.

As to hearing whispers..HEH, tell me you don't know somebody IRL who when they whisper you can hear them better then when not.

There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable, Hell, if anything, it's too weak, why is it that a position change can shut it off?

And if you want to keep secrets, work harder at it, more fun anyway, listen is the weakest method to overhear conversations anyway.

And finally, its really NOT hard to keep track of many conversations around you in a bar or other place, really, TRY it, I'm one of them nosy types who does, IRL, I tend to pick a position/table that is advantaged to over hearing and I concentrate on the sounds, it is a learned skill, but anybody can do it, it's not your ears, its your brain, practice. All the sounds are there, you hear them all, all at once, your mind filters things out, train it to not do so.

Oh, and why would listening outside be any different then inside? Thats silly.

[Anonymous]

There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable, Hell, if anything, it's too weak, why is it that a position change can shut it off?

Go to one of those Applebees/Outback Steakhouse/Chilis/Ruby Tuesday type restaurants and try to hear what two people halfway across the room are talking about.  If you can hear over the noise you have super powers.

It's impossible to distinguish what 50 different voices all talking at the same time are saying.  The whole 'number of sound waves in a small area' thing.  But that is exactly what the listen skill allows you to do.  And I'd say given the PC and NPC population in addition to the implied VNPC population of most in game taverns that 50 is not an unrealistic number.

The listen skill is one of my favorites in game, I hate characters without it.  It's for that very reason I want it toned down.  The more powerful listen is the less gets said.  It's the same reason everyone goes around with an empty inventory and closeable packs, belts, quivers, etc, because the steal skill works so damn well.

[Cenghiz]

Go to one of those Applebees/Outback Steakhouse/Chilis/Ruby Tuesday type restaurants and try to hear what two people halfway across the room are talking about. If you can hear over the noise you have super powers.

Nope... It means you probably have a disability in your seeing. I can't see in darkness. It's a disability that can't be cured. I seem to hear very well, much better than an average human. I have blind friends that can hear anything.

So we can't hear well because we don't have to hear well to stay alive. If you don't use an ability, the ability weakens.

But in Zalanthas we're in a fantasy world in which listening may mean staying alive. It doesn't seem too weird to me to meet an elf hearing the whisper of a dwarf sitting across the room.