Listen...

[Ayashah]

I know there has been a lot of discussion on listen and this didnt belong in the other thread so I started a new one. Personally, I think listen is way too strong a skill and hampers realistic rp. People are oocly afraid to say things in public because of the maxed listen skill being used. Granted, those people using listen should be trusted to use their common sense in what they SHOULD overhear in lieu of knowing all they overheard due to the 'code' allowing it.

There has been talk of how listen could be changed to 'listen <pc>' or 'listen table' to make it more realistic. I dont know what it would take to code that or if it's feasible to do. I have a different suggestion.

Again, I dont know if this is feasible to code or not but just a thought of mine. Is there a way to flag rooms 'noisy'? This flag would cut everyone's listening skill by half or such. So if someone is in a tavern they would only get 'blurps' of conversations and not whole sentences. Or not who said what because truthfully, unless someone was watching said person, they wouldnt know who said what. They might determine by accents and so forth but sitting at different tables and locations should make the automatic 'who' less determinable.

This sort of flag could be adjusted so that those city folks would be better at hearing in town but worse out in the wilds as they arent USE to listening to things out there and vice versa. Those that would be use to the wilds and pick up things easily would have a harder time in the city as all those confusing, loud, city grebbers would make things harder to hear.

Just a few thoughts on listen.  

[Quirk]

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ... like so:

The pink-eyed baby-faced man says at your table, in sirhish:
   "My feet are killing me. I need to get some new boots. I hear Poddle Kadius is selling some good ones."

and the listener hears:
The pink-eyed baby-faced man says at his table, in sirhish:
   "... killing ... need to get ... Poddle Kadius ... good ones."

However, discussing private matters in a public place is a stupid thing to do, and it deserves to be penalised. Intrigue operates because people find out other people's plans. The clever know to keep their secrets under wraps, the not so clever blether about them where they can be heard. I've no sympathy for players who do things that are ICly foolish complaining about their consequences. It doesn't hamper RP at all; the very opposite, it allows conflicts to grow with parties who have a vested interest in disturbing your plans.

Quirk

[Ayashah]

I wasnt talking about 'intrigue' talks in a tavern though. Regular conversations where its nothing secret but others might take it as whining or such when they only know the part they heard. As in someone sitting at the bar and pcs sitting over at a table across the room. One shouldnt be able to really make out what the others are saying as they are across a busy tavern. Anyone that openly talks of things like, killing joe blow, in a tavern deserves what they get. Shoot, some people can hear whispers so even if they are 'trying' to be discrete on any subject, important or not, people can hear them across the bar. Granted, if someone is whispering from the bar to a couch and I overhear that, I will take it as someone not whispering as a whisper going across that distance without being heard is ludicrous.

I would rather see it broken up like what Quirk showed. Nothing complete but something that might be taken wrong. That would be much more realistic.

[Forest Junkie]

Shoot, some people can hear whispers so even if they are 'trying' to be discrete on any subject, important or not, people can hear them across the bar.

If you don't like people overhearing your discrete banter, then it may be best to take your secrets elsewhere.

I like listen the way it is. No change.

[Boggis]

Listen as it stands is vastly overpowered. Hearing every conversation in the room simultaenously? Hear a whisper in a busy tavern? Its insane. Fixing it to make it realistic would no doubt be painful to code but I think it really should be required to be targeted at a table and depending on your skill you might well miss a number of words in a sentence as it works in other muds. This would be far more realistic and it could be argued then that the level of noise in a place isn't so important as you might be incorporating lip-reading into your listening as well. But that couldn't be argued with the way the skill stands at the moment.

[Forest Junkie]

This is Zalanthas. There are persons trained, perhaps even mutated genetically (ie desert elves, halflings, gith, dwarves, even humans) to the point that they have heightened senses which go beyond the scope of our real world "human".

Again, I say it's fine the way it is.

[Lazloth]

The skill's been bantered before; current form it's twink paradise imho.

I want to see an active listen and..

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ...

[Quirk]

This is Zalanthas. There are persons trained, perhaps even mutated genetically (ie desert elves, halflings, gith, dwarves, even humans) to the point that they have heightened senses which go beyond the scope of our real world "human".

Again, I say it's fine the way it is.

Unfortunately, it's entirely inconsistent. Some people can pick out every word of every conversation held in the noisy bar-room they're in. Some people can't hear anything unless it's shouted across the room or said at their table. There is no middle ground. This makes any quibbles in favour of the listen skill's realism moot. Ideally, you'd see a progression from being able to catch only tiny snatches of conversation at neighbouring tables to being able to follow most of the conversations going on around you. The way the skill works currently makes no IC sense, particularly at low levels of the listen skill when the character is fluctuating back and forth between hearing nothing and hearing everything while attempting to listen.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

save for the guy who is mutated to get uber-listen, how do you know?  Listen is overpowered.  Make it Listen PC or Listen TABLE with dropped ... words.

[Armaddict]

I don't mind it.  Not at all.  I play all sorts of characters.  A subclass gets it.  Several classes get it.  It's not exactly an exclusive skill, so if you want to have a weapon against listeners, listen back.

In Zalanthas, so much is based around gathering information.  SO MUCH.  You put in the other way, and spying becomes unreliable and nearly useless.  Particularly for a newer character.

If you want to make things harsh as hell on newer characters, by all means, push for it.  But right now, things are set up completely fine.

[Anonymous]

In Zalanthas, so much is based around gathering information.  SO MUCH.  You put in the other way, and spying becomes unreliable and nearly useless.  Particularly for a newer character.

I disagree completely.  It is exactly for the cause of spying that listen should get changed, IMHO, to either target a table or a PC or drop words or both.

As it stands now too much goes unsaid in public because in the back of people's minds they know the listen skill is going to get them.  If there was less of a chance what they had to say would be overheard in its entirety then I think people would be more inclined to speak about some of the not-so-sensitive goings on in public while speaking quietly over a table in the middle of a busy tavern.

I'd liken it raiding.  If raiders were given a skill that made them able to raid anyone passing a given stretch of road eventually people will stop riding that road alone, sticking to large caravans or groups.  The end result is that an overpowered raider skill would put raiders out of business.  It is precisely because raiding isn't an exact science that people brave the roads alone.

If listen is toned down, more people will speak freely in taverns about something other than who is hiring.

[WhiteRanger]

ForestJunkie has a perfectly valid argument, who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base  from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of. Keep in mind also that our PC's are not your average joe schmoe salt sifter that can barely lift an obsidian sword, we are the elite of the elite, the "heroes" if you will, of this world. In most cases (Yes I know some of you will say "But I have poor wisdom" and if you do, then roleplay accordingly) the average pc has a far higher intelligence than the dung shoveler next door. This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I was once told by a certain immortal that a certain clan just may have a psion watching all members at all times, and thats how they know exactly what goes on with my pc at all times....and if that is a legitimate excuse...then enhanced auditory systems, is definantly in the feasable grid.

[Armaddict]

If raiders were raiding a road constantly anyway, I should -hope- people learn to avoid it, or else they'd be dumbasses.  Liken that to listen....hmm.

[Ayashah]

If you don't like people overhearing your discrete banter, then it may be best to take your secrets elsewhere.

Again, as I stated before, Forest Junkie, its not about having a discrete conversation. If my pc wanted to be discrete, they would take it elsewhere. Its about overhearing every little conversation while you are, and would be, focused on your own conversation going on at the place you are sitting.

I really like the idea of listen table, listen person, etc. I wasnt sure if that was codeable or if a room flag would be great. AND, to coin a phrase, just because CODE allows you to do something, it doesnt make it IC to do.

[Anonymous]

If raiders were raiding a road constantly anyway, I should -hope- people learn to avoid it, or else they'd be dumbasses.  Liken that to listen....hmm.

The point isn't that they are guarding a stretch of road, its that they are nearly omniscient about who is passing the road based on the imaginary skill I referred to.  That's where the comparison to listen bears out.  People don't talk openly because listen is guaranteed to get them.  Remove that guarantee and people will be less inclined to spend 100 coins to rent the back room to talk about some of the lesser secrets.

[Armaddict]

Again, as I stated before, Forest Junkie, its not about having a discrete conversation. If my pc wanted to be discrete, they would take it elsewhere.

So what's the point?  It won't change anything anyway, in this case.  They'll just catch less of useless banter.

[Mr.Camel]

As it should be.

I'd prefer the HL/SoI codebase form of listen, in which words are dropped from sentences and replaced with ...

I like. And the previously proposed idea of 'listen <target table, pc>'.

[Armaddict]

Seems like some extra coding with very little benefit, to me.

[Incognito]

I think listen is one of the best skill/talent/weapon (call it what you may) that some classes have. To the extent that it is one of the only skills that particular classes or even particular roles might use at all! (Think of a tavern lounger a la Fale - often involving nothing else but sitting in taverns with listen on).

Those few classes and/or roles would be immensely harder to play and much more boring to go through, if this skill was toned down.

Personally, when I have listen on, and am able to listen to multiple conversations in a bar, like RL, I am usually following one conversation for a short period, to see if I hear anything interesting, if not, I switch to paying attention to the conversation on another table. I would never log the entire thing and then go back and minutely piece together each conversation.

In effect its much like RL, you sit in a bar and can hear everything around you, but you pay attention to what you are interested in only and the rest goes in from one ear and out of the other - literally!

People might not realise it but asking for listen to be toned down is almost akin to asking for a combat skill to be toned down or a magickal spell to be toned down! Think of it as a special skill/talent that certain folks have, but also realise that those folks might be highly deficient in other areas also.

Personally I love the listen skill as it is, and would be sorely disappointed if it is toned down - to the point that it would actually make me think twice before playing social roles centered around the taverns.

Although, I would not be averse to having it toned down for certain classes who are supposed to be experts at listening to outdoor sounds, when they are indoors, and vice versa. Similar to other skills which have city and outdoor versions.

But thats just my .02
Incog

[jstorrie]

I don't think having words dropped would 'cripple' listen.  Presumably, those characters with a high cap on listen could hone their skills to the point of picking up everything said.

[Armaddict]

So...now people are just going to sit in taverns and -powergame- listen?

At least you don't have to, right now.  It's a passive sort of thing, just keep it in the background.

If you change it, you'll have people actually -practicing- it.

"No, I can't risk getting into anything big yet.  My listen isn't maxxed, I'm working on it."

I really do -not- see what the big complaint is about.

[Agent_137]

people moaning about realism when the problem isn't even twinkable.

I think this is one of those areas you should leave to the player.

[X-D]

I like listen as is, it is not over powered in any way. Those that think it is, well, I can only say, -try- harder IRL to do the same things you think are impossible right now.

As to hearing whispers..HEH, tell me you don't know somebody IRL who when they whisper you can hear them better then when not.

There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable, Hell, if anything, it's too weak, why is it that a position change can shut it off?

And if you want to keep secrets, work harder at it, more fun anyway, listen is the weakest method to overhear conversations anyway.

And finally, its really NOT hard to keep track of many conversations around you in a bar or other place, really, TRY it, I'm one of them nosy types who does, IRL, I tend to pick a position/table that is advantaged to over hearing and I concentrate on the sounds, it is a learned skill, but anybody can do it, it's not your ears, its your brain, practice. All the sounds are there, you hear them all, all at once, your mind filters things out, train it to not do so.

Oh, and why would listening outside be any different then inside? Thats silly.

[Anonymous]

There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable, Hell, if anything, it's too weak, why is it that a position change can shut it off?

Go to one of those Applebees/Outback Steakhouse/Chilis/Ruby Tuesday type restaurants and try to hear what two people halfway across the room are talking about.  If you can hear over the noise you have super powers.

It's impossible to distinguish what 50 different voices all talking at the same time are saying.  The whole 'number of sound waves in a small area' thing.  But that is exactly what the listen skill allows you to do.  And I'd say given the PC and NPC population in addition to the implied VNPC population of most in game taverns that 50 is not an unrealistic number.

The listen skill is one of my favorites in game, I hate characters without it.  It's for that very reason I want it toned down.  The more powerful listen is the less gets said.  It's the same reason everyone goes around with an empty inventory and closeable packs, belts, quivers, etc, because the steal skill works so damn well.

[Cenghiz]

Go to one of those Applebees/Outback Steakhouse/Chilis/Ruby Tuesday type restaurants and try to hear what two people halfway across the room are talking about. If you can hear over the noise you have super powers.

Nope... It means you probably have a disability in your seeing. I can't see in darkness. It's a disability that can't be cured. I seem to hear very well, much better than an average human. I have blind friends that can hear anything.

So we can't hear well because we don't have to hear well to stay alive. If you don't use an ability, the ability weakens.

But in Zalanthas we're in a fantasy world in which listening may mean staying alive. It doesn't seem too weird to me to meet an elf hearing the whisper of a dwarf sitting across the room.

[Ghost]

Oh by the way, I think listen skill as conjugate working with read lips.

So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

[Lazloth]

I like listen as is, it is not over powered in any way...There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable.

The biggest defect to the skill in my opinion is that your proficiency, as a tavern eavesdropper, becomes irrelevant.  If listen is up, you miss nothing, regardless of how good or bad you are at listening.

A starting char can spam listen on and begin his world of spying without dropping a beat.  That's unrealistic.  The only other skill I can think of that's 'broken' to a similar effect is brew.

[X-D]

Cenghiz and Ghost answered CRW for me.

Lazloth, I do agree, but really, I don't see it as being a major problem and in dire need of a rework or anything..if at all.

[Anonymous]

So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

Ok, that makes a good degree of sense, though lip-reading has never been implied in the docs, but I can suck for that.

What about the dozens of other people talking at varying proximities to you, are you reading their lips as well?  Daredevil super power testamonials aside, I don't believe it's possible.

[Armaddict]

What's the huge effect to complain about?

[X-D]

CRW wrote:

I don't believe it's possible.

Then it is not possible....for you, defeated before you began.

Might as well not bother posting again on the subject, as on a message board there is -no- way to prove that it -is- possible.

But maybe, before you pass judgement without knowledge, you should at least make a real attempt at what I said on earlier posts...TRY IT. Practice, work, train your mind to actually "hear and NOTICE" things that are normaly filtered out as noise. The only thing I can prove to you is that "hearing" is in the brain, the ears only transform the stimulus into a code the brain can decipher.

What about the dozens of other people talking at varying proximities to you

Every little soundwave in that room hits your eardrums and is sent to the brain, but what is deciphered as language and what is left to noise is totally dependant on the training YOU have given your brain.

[Mr.Camel]

Speaking for myself, I can barely make out conversations at two tables if I pay attention, but I never trained myself, so it may be possible. Anyhow, I wanted to touch the issue of everyone paying so much attention to information in Zalanthas. I can see important people understanding its importance. But your average ignorant commoner would be careful of what they speak in a tavern because all those people sitting with their chairs against the far wall are automagickally listening over all the tables? 'Take your secrets elsewhere' is irrelevant in a debate about whether the listen skill gives more information than a listener should get. You say the listener decides what they hear and what not? Honestly, how many players would dismiss a line about a friend or something said in the bar while they are eavesdropping on another table, as noise their character didn't pay attention to? Furthermore, if it was noise, then maybe they shouldn't have the ability to make out all the words in the first place.

And the lip-reading thing. If you want to read my lips, I would expect you to emote watching me very attentively.

[Armaddict]

That's the idea.  The keywords of your friend come up, and bam.  There's the interest.

[Mr.Camel]

That makes good sense. Its actually why I refrained from saying you, or someone you work for, or the Templarate. But, if you are passively hearing something in a tavern, with so many other things you hear at the same time, would you pick such keywords up?

[Armaddict]

I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

[Ayashah]

Nope... It means you probably have a disability in your seeing. I can't see in darkness. It's a disability that can't be cured. I seem to hear very well, much better than an average human. I have blind friends that can hear anything.

Very good point. I didnt think of it that way. Though I still think it's unrealistic to be able to hear 'everything' said in a room even if you are involved in a deep conversation of your own. Gotta love those pcs that will 'directly' quote you back verbatum that were sparring/etc while you were having a quiet conversation away from the ring.

So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

Yes, some people are great at reading lips but again, if you arent LOOKING at thim, you cant read their lips. You cant be looking at everyone at the same time to be able to read their lips all simultaneously. I would prefer it coming across with words dropped, in simulation of your attention turning briefly to another conversation with an ability to 'listen' to a certain table or pc and not be able to hear anything else but what's said out loud or at your table. But I figure that's probably nigh near impossible to code.

That's the idea.  The keywords of your friend come up, and bam.  There's the interest.

I do agree, keywords you pick up on. I sit an aisle away from my boss at work. I can 'hear' him talk but NOT what he's saying unless I ignore everyone else talking on the phone and between each other. Because then I am focused on his conversation. Since I am interested in what 'he' has to say, I tune out the others around me to focus on that. Usually because I am the only female in his quadrant and if I hear him say 'she' or 'Lisa' I know the conversation he's having is about me and my area. But if nothing piques my interest, then his voice is just background noise that I am not focusing on and I couldnt tell you what he was talking about other than that I know my boss is in his cubicle.

I do have to give kudos to those that posted keeping it civil and the personal insults to the minimum. Thanks for everyone's perspective on the subject.

[Anonymous]

Listen should not be an all or nothing skill. I'm in favor of the dropped words thing. I imagine some code similar to the language code could be used. That way, if you and a friend are both listening in the same bar, you two could piece together the different parts of the conversation you heard.

[Armaddict]

While I admit it's unrealistic, I -still- see no good reason for it to be changed to favor the higher realism.

Basically, it's taking a skill that you have to be fairly lucky, stealthy, and daring to get anything out of, and reducing your chances that are slim -anyway-.

If you could state something besides realism as the reason for change, something that really needed to be addressed, then I'd be for it.  But until then, I still think that it's a waste of coder's time and energy since there are no real ill effects of how it is right now.

[spawnloser]

The reason it should be changed is because being an eavesdropping spy is too easy.  People do unrealistic things because it is too easy to hear everything they say from across the crowded, noisy bar.  THAT is why there should be a change.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, we should make 'say' only visible to people on one side of the room, as well.  Hell, let's divide every room into two, or four.  Because when you use 'say', it's so much -louder- then when you use 'say', only it's directed at your table by using 'talk'.

Make every room actually four.  That way you can have the people by -that- table, the people by -that- table, and so on.

You guys are making way too much of a deal over 'you can hear this from across the room'.  You can hear -any- mode of speech from across the room.  The only difference is, 'talk' is directed at those at your table.  It's not -lower volume- than anything else.

So hear hear!  Let's make say and tell only hearable in bar rooms with 'listen', eliminate hearing 'talk', and make it so that only by 'shout'ing can everyone in the room hear you.

Yes, I will conclude with [/sarcasm]

[Ayashah]

The reason it should be changed is because being an eavesdropping spy is too easy.  People do unrealistic things because it is too easy to hear everything they say from across the crowded, noisy bar.  THAT is why there should be a change.

Agreed.

Despite sarcasm and some getting touchy on the subject, I still think this was a good discussion all around.

Now, it was asked for a good reason why this should be changed and I didnt want to be insulting so insinuated my reasons in my posts. Let me put it bluntly.

Players cant seem to separate where code lets them do things and what they SHOULD be able to do. There. Said it. I have great skill at listening but I chose to ignore a lot I hear because, in my honest opinion, I wouldnt hear, much less be able to COMPLETELY quote, someone whom was sitting across the tavern from me. OOCLY, yes, I can. I have logs I can make, a large scroll back, etc. If I was focusing on listening to their conversation, I might be able to hear it but what about all the wandering people between me and them? What about loud bursts of laughter and low talk at the tables? What about rp that shows them trying to talk low and etc. There are a lot of factors in there and not just the amount of pcs and words scrolling by.

Its sort of no different than someone being ridden up on in the desert and the immediate:

run
eeesesenenwnnnneennee  enter village

People, not all but some, will justify that because code allows it, its IC. Granted, that will ALWAYS happen but this forum IS for discussing code and such. There is never a stupid question or a suggestion. Some are feasible, others are not on a coding stance. Some might be worth looking into but not until more important things are dealt with. But in the end, each suggestion can lead to more thought in how to improve the game or how to improve one's rp.

So if you wish to be sarcastic or such, that is your choice. I hope others got a lot from this conversation and again, I appreciate all the opinions.

[Carnage]

I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

[Agent_137]

I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

Single sentence sarcastic refutations of humorous points prove you have a big dick.

[Forest Junkie]

I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

Single sentence sarcastic refutations of humorous points prove you have a big dick.

Dude, that makes mine GIGANTIC.

*spec apps a gargantuan elven-codpiece*

[WhiteRanger]

AGAIN

ForestJunkie has a perfectly valid argument, who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of. Keep in mind also that our PC's are not your average joe schmoe salt sifter that can barely lift an obsidian sword, we are the elite of the elite, the "heroes" if you will, of this world. In most cases (Yes I know some of you will say "But I have poor wisdom" and if you do, then roleplay accordingly) the average pc has a far higher intelligence than the dung shoveler next door. This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I was once told by a certain immortal that a certain clan just may have a psion watching all members at all times, and thats how they know exactly what goes on with my pc at all times....and if that is a legitimate excuse...then enhanced auditory systems, is definantly in the feasable grid.

[Lazloth]

..who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of.

Rent a clue, man.  Ears is ears.

[Armaddict]

Not really.  Things can be vastly different, but that's not going to be my huge argument.

The cost to benefit of doing it is just...high.  The only real reason to do it, is, in fact, realism.

But, in that case, -I- want some new code in.  Whenever someone is out in the desert, and it's dark, but they're smoking spice?  I'm usually the ranger in the next room.  I want them to be targetable with my arrows, so that I can snipe them by seeing the cherry of that spice.  Just 'shoot spice w' would work wonderfully.

There you go, another case of what -should- be in for realism (This is how Carlos Hathcock's friend was sniped in Vietnam), but there's no real benefit for fixing it.  The reason that listen is the same?

Listen, just like above code, hardly ever pays off for what you want it for.  Sure, now you can hear the whole room, but you know what that whole room speaks about?  BLATHER.  Listen is far more widely used as a tool for -not being bored- when you're in a tavern alone then active, 100% around the clock I'm a sneaky spy bastard.  Even if it was changed, people would -still- be smart and take private conversations somewhere private, listeners -still- wouldn't get much unless they knew how to use it combined with stealth and pure -balls-, going into situations where they'd likely die if caught, and listeners would just be left staring at periods for the first ten days of their character.

So...where's the benefit?

[Quirk]

AGAIN
You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of.

This is the old and fallacious argument that can be extrapolated to claims such as "Elves actually hear with their knees! I won't believe otherwise until the docs contradict me." The docs usually note departures from what might be expected in an Earth physique, and it's assumed points of similarity need not be touched on.

This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I don't believe anyone ever suggested Zalanthans are more intelligent than we are. Hence, I refuse to believe in their capacity to track a full room's worth of conversations of chattering patrons at once.

In any case, whatever Zalanthan abilities may be like, the fact remains that listen is an on/off skill where it should be a steadily improving one. Half-trained listeners shouldn't be able to pick up everything going on in a tavern, and indeed RP is likely to be rendered more interesting as they strain to fill the gaps in the conversation with their own extrapolations - even the dull conversations might sound that bit more interesting. Besides, as CRW has pointed out, people might get a little less cautious about opening their mouth in public, and skilled listeners would likely reap the benefits.

Quirk

[Armaddict]

I disagree about people becoming less cautious.

I know, for one, that I wouldn't.  And I know that I'm not alone.  I'm not going to start discussing things in a public place, thinking, "Oh, they toned down listen.  It's safe here.  Discuss away!"  I'm still going to go along the exact same lines of thinking.  "This is a public place, and I'm not discussing a private matter that I don't want other people overhearing."

After all, it's a -tavern-.  There are going to be people close enough to hear -all- the time.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Ears is ears.

Well, now that's not entirely true, is it?  Bat ears differ greatly from human ears.  Dog ears are very different from both bat and human ears.  Lizard ears are not the same as dog, bat, or human ears.

But what you're talking about isn't -hearing-.  What you're actually discussing in this thread is the brain's ability to process incoming auditory data.  Note the "cocktail party effect" as defined here.  The problem is the same as with any kind of computed signal processing - throughput and memory.  The essential difficulty is that there is a limit to how much data the brain can process at once, and a limit to how much data can be stored to process at any given time.

We have limited auditory memory; research suggests that auditory memory in humans is capable of holding about 10 pieces of information for adults (a google search for "average adult auditory memory" produces more information than I can process ).  We also have limited processing capabilities; I wasn't able to quickly find any hard numbers, but it really isn't important - the point is the same - at some point the rate that data comes in exceeds the rate at which you can process it, at which point your auditory memory fills up, and you start losing data.  Skilled listeners are capable of more rapidly processing auditory data, and have larger auditory memory.  

Now, I think accurately simulating this in game would be entirely too difficult.  In fact, most levels of coded simulation would leave out too many factors, such as the apparent ability of people to pick up on keywords in conversations that they are not actually paying attention to and rapidly shift their attention to devote some resources to that conversation.

Therefore, I would be against changing the listen skill.  In a crowded tavern, if you have the listen skill and everyone is talking at once, it's hard enough to keep track of what everyone is typing anyway; I see no reason to add coded complications that could never reasonably account for what humans are truly capable of processing, with practice.

[WhiteRanger]

I like all of the facts from the studys...but those arent studys performed on a zalanthan human, a completely alien race when compared with the earth human. Sure we are very similar but not the same...its a fact. Here is how I see it, the code allows our characters to fall from 60 and 70 feet up into bedrock and though most of us will be unconcious we will still survive, the average earth human would die almost instantly (in most cases). If the code allows my character to do something, then I, assume that the immortal thought it feasable for a zalanthan born race to have that ability, thus if the code allows me to hear and decipher a room full of talking patron's conversations, then I will assume that the immortals thought it feasable for a zalanthan human to be able to do that...They write the code, I play the game. I am all for changes for the better. But I see a whole lot of claims that this isnt realistic, thats not the point, it isnt realistic by Earth standards, not zalanthan standards. When we try to make the game more realistic, that dosent mean try to make it more like earth. I like the fact that a zalanthan human has the ability to hear and decipher an entire rooms conversations, sure I cant do that in real life, but if I wanted to be in real life, I would go next door to McDonalds and sit around and listen, rather than logging in to do so. Its the age old fun factor vs the realistic (in relation to Earth views) factor. I think its fun, its not crippling the game...let it go. Work on something more important like finally getting an answer to the HIDDEN EMOTE question that an immortal has yet to reply on.

[fearwig]

I'm inclined to agree that this is something that could use some change.

It should be relatively simple to listen to one person, or one table's conversations, at least in considerable part. It should, however, not be possible, nor necessary, for you to hear all the conversations at all the tables in the room at once. Give this skill a target (table, door or direction), and instead of being an on/off sort of thing, let it be passive once you set a target.

Typing "listen on" over and over shouldn't get this skill up. Actively listening and failing checks -there- should do it. You'd turn it on for a target table, door, direction, et cetera, and you'd have a chance for it to work whenever someone there spoke.

[DustMight]

As it stands now too much goes unsaid in public because in the back of people's minds they know the listen skill is going to get them.

CRW, I think you show that the problem isn't so much the code as it is the players.  I, for one, occasionally play characters who talk about important business in public places - because that is who they are...lazy, maybe overly confident, perhaps incompetent.  

Sometimes I want other characters to overhear me as I feed them bad information or know that I'm stirring a plot up.

But all that aside, it isn't listen that needs to change, it's the OOC reaction to knowing that your PC may be overheard.  Does your PC know that every T, D & H can hear him?   Probably not, really.  In a dim tavern of rowdy soldiers it's likely he feels he's got reasonable cover to talk to his friend (he could whisper or Way if he must) and listeners could roleplay not quite hearing everything - choosen to gain as much information as they wish from nothing to everything.

[quote = "WhiteRanger"]You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of. [/quote]  This about the silliest thing I've read, though your general point is well taken.  [/quote]

[Bestatte]

I love it when characters talk at intimate corners of crowded rooms, and are roleplayed as being oblivious to the fact that there might be eavesdroppers.

I also love it when people using the listen skill will pick and choose which end of the room they're listening to, and ignore the rest of whatever the code picks up for them.

I try to do the same..for instance if I walk into the bar and see "interesting looking people" sitting at a table, I might take a seat at another table and emote that I am sitting nearby. Or I might emote moving to "that" end of the bar and sitting there. If someone ELSE at the opposite end of the room starts having a conversation that I pick up, it is an effort to pretend my character didn't hear it. But - that's exactly what I do. I, the player, heard everything said. But my character did not, because it's a crowded noisy room and she's trying to snoop on the table at the other side.

It would be awesome if the code could support this. I would absolutely love it. But at the moment it doesn't, and for now the only thing you -can- do is try to remember where you are in comparison to where the eavedropped conversations are taking place, and keep the atmosphere and room noise level in mind.