The delicate matter of roleplaying when you're an Immortal

[Bestatte]

I don't know if this would be helpful or not, but in the game I IMMed in, we had some pretty clear rules for the staff. Granted, it wasn't nearly as intensive a RP game as Arm is, but here goes:

1) Whichever city you IMM in, you cannot have an avatar in.

2) If your clan accepts people from any city, you cannot have an avatar in that clan, even if he lives in another city.

2a) You CAN create an NPC, that is exclusively yours, for the express purpose of promoting RP within the clan you run.

3) While you are playing your Avatar, you are not allowed to be logged in as an IMM.

3a) While you are logged in as an IMM, you are not allowed to be logged in with your avatar account.

4) Any violation of the above is subject to disciplinary action, and any abuse caused by any violation of the above is subject to immediate dismissal.

Now - I was basically a full-time IMM (semi-head builder, storyteller, de-bugger, ran 2-3 different clans and 1 RPT every week, customer service, etc. etc. etc.), so often I would play my PC while I was IMMing, which was technically against the rules. But they also knew that I would have had no time to play if I didn't play while being logged in as a staff member, since I was ALWAYS available as a staff member. So they cut me some slack on that.

But even then - if a customer needed my attention as a staffer (It's a pay-to-play) I would almost always log off my PC from the game so I could give my full attention to the customer. And when an RPT involved the clan my PC was in, or the city my PC was in, I would log out as an IMM and just play my PC.

I think this is a fair way to handle things - it's important for staff members to continue playing -as players- so they can keep in touch with the concerns that players have, and experience those concerns for themselves. But it's also important for them to not be tempted to allow their IMM-knowledge to interfere with their player-knowledge, and so seperation is unfortunately necessary.

It isn't a matter of trust, in most cases. It's more a matter of common sense. If you've been on both sides of the coin, you'd understand this.

[jmordetsky]

I have a very different take on all of this.

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

And one of them should play Tek.


Also, that said...Things seem to fine as is, so why mess with it?

[Forest Junkie]

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

Immortals should not be the ultimate plot drivers. The players should be. The staff, IMO, is here to help and guide us when in need. Overall though, I think it's up to the players to create plots, not the immortals.

I think most staff, even, would agree with that assessment, as alot of players strive to bring about their own stories.

[Carnage]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

[mansa]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

What we are really talking about, is an Immortals avatar, which is their PC, much like ours.  It's their character that is not out there to run things.  It's their own little toy to have their fun with.  They need a break from their own clanmates.

It's almost assumed that Immortals have a various ammount of NPCs that they have set up as the clan 'heads' and whatnot.  They -do- do the things you say...

The discussion here is when an immortal isn't logged in as their 'immortal' but as their Avatar.

[Cuusardo]

On the mud I IMM on, the IMMs are allowed to have PCs.  Those PCs are generally checked up on periodically to ensure that the IMM is not cheating for that character (giving them uber-awesome gear, for example.)  I would assume that things are the same on Armageddon.

[wizturbo]

I agree with Marko on this, but only to a certain degree.

I see no problem with allowing staff to play high karma characters, such as mindbenders and sorcerors.  I think they're the most qualified to play them, and it adds to the game.

I do have a problem with creating noble or merchant family members, Templars, or positions of that nature.  I agree with Marko's reasons, and I also believe that the access to OOC information an immortal has can effect their judgement even if its unintentional.  Immortals -are- human.

[Savak]

I don't much care who anyone is, anonymous or not.  The main difference to ME is that if something is posted anonymously I tend to ignore it because I've got no way to identify with its source.  Kinda like junk mail.  Maybe that's just me.  But I can appreciate that people can be a bit judgemental and have long memories.

Speaking of which -- staff-run PC's.  I played for several years before coming on staff, and during THAT time always assumed that any strange tangents from what I expected was completely IC.  So, I lived a happy life as a player, if a tenuous one as a PC.  The only incident that worried me was after a clan-mate assassinated someone they begain immediately receiving abusive sends; kinda an obvious one there, and that staff member has been gone now longer than most of you have been out of diapers.

I think it's important to point out, however, that staff members are EXPECTED to use OOC information IC'ly.  Most of the NPC's we breathe life into or plots we guide require it.  We have to know who is involved with who, who has what influence, what that hand signal just meant to tribe Z, etc. etc., just in order to respond APPROPRIATELY.  The difference is that we bear the responsibility of using it appropriately -- in time, place, and content.  Really, so do most players -- simply that we have oodles more OOC and IC information at our fingertips and near omnipotence within the game world, and thus much higher expectations to do "the right thing," which is precisely as vague to adhere to as it sounds.

I don't have much worry about staff well and truly "abusing" knowledge while playing a personal PC, because obvious abuses are, well.. obvious.  And thus get recognised & dealt with quickly.

My greater concern lies with grey situations.  As we all know, it's very easy to get personally attached to a PC we are playing -- thus, it is also difficult to completely avoid rationalising their knowledge and actions.  What I don't really WANT to be worried about is how players perceive staff actions, because I know these tend to be exaggerated (just as staff perceptions of player actions are sometimes exaggerated), but I don't think this is something that will go away.  That's just how large groups of people are.

I'll add here another point.  I would much MUCH prefer to find ways to INFUSE our staff back into the playerbase rather than further ISOLATE them.  If we can't do that because people are too afraid of the alternative, then so be it, but we should recognise the relative loss, and are doing our best to minimise it while maximising everyone's enjoyment.

-Savak

[Gilvar]

To clarify the Templar issue, we arn't allowed to play Templars not for a trust issue really, but because there is usually a limit on Templar-characters, meaning that if an Immortal is playing one it prevents a player from doing so. And the general consensus up here is that we'd rather have players in potentially rewarding and exciting roles like that then Immortals who in most cases have either already done it, or could through NPCs.

[Lazloth]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I disagree with this completely:  I really couldn't care less who an immortal plays (templar, sorc, dried goods salesman), but I'd find it knavish if their PCs were tied with their clans; animating NPCs is, of course, a completely different story.  Further (and I realize it will never come to pass), I'd think it were a perfect world if the clans an immortal "owned" cycled around regularly -- for many of the same reasons players are encouraged to do something different from PC to PC.

[Delirium]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

Their right to play and enjoy the game from time to time as a PC, without their character being pinpointed as being one belonging to an Immortal; and therefore suddenly being subject to all sorts of OOC criticism, suspicion, suck-up attempts, and other similar and no less annoying things.

I've been there and done that on another MUD, and ended up retiring the character.

I realize Carnage's quote was probably just a jab in the 'anonymous posting' sub-argument, but since it was my quote taken out of context, I felt the need to clarify.

[X-D]

I don't have a problem with imms having pc's and I don't have a problem with them playing whatever clan they want, I -do- however think they should be limited in karma roles above 5, these should be reserved more for non-imm players, since there is a limit to the number allowed in game at any time.

I have seen what I consider improper use of imm gained knowledge in game before, unfortunatly most times there has been no way for me to -prove- it, something that will be the case 99% of the time because the players do not have the means to do so. That and often it can be explained away too easily, often it is a flimsy explanation IMO but oh well.

[Carnage]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

Their right to play and enjoy the game from time to time as a PC, without their character being pinpointed as being one belonging to an Immortal; and therefore suddenly being subject to all sorts of OOC criticism, suspicion, suck-up attempts, and other similar and no less annoying things.

I've been there and done that on another MUD, and ended up retiring the character.

I realize Carnage's quote was probably just a jab in the 'anonymous posting' sub-argument, but since it was my quote taken out of context, I felt the need to clarify.

No, I'm just curious where you got all these ideas on 'rights' from. What 'rights' do players have?

[Delirium]

It was a figure of speech, Carnage.

[jmordetsky]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

What we are really talking about, is an Immortals avatar, which is their PC, much like ours.  It's their character that is not out there to run things.  It's their own little toy to have their fun with.  They need a break from their own clanmates.

It's almost assumed that Immortals have a various ammount of NPCs that they have set up as the clan 'heads' and whatnot.  They -do- do the things you say...

The discussion here is when an immortal isn't logged in as their 'immortal' but as their Avatar.

Agreed, but what I posed was the concept of an immortal never playing an Avatar but rather focus solely on their npcs.

[jmordetsky]

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

Immortals should not be the ultimate plot drivers. The players should be. The staff, IMO, is here to help and guide us when in need. Overall though, I think it's up to the players to create plots, not the immortals.

I think most staff, even, would agree with that assessment, as alot of players strive to bring about their own stories.

1 year ago I would have completely agreed with you, but my recent experiences have changed my mind. Imm run clan based RPTs rock.

Players should form the directions and outcomes of such things, but when an Imm is there with you help to shape the story nothing is better. Hands down, the most fun I've had durring this game is when an IMM was providing the "effects" of player actions, through various channels....env emotes, npc actions etc.

You need the DM....

[crymerci]

Ok without going off too much on any of the side-tangents, here's what I think:

I don't think imms should play templars as a regular PC.  Not because I think they can't be trusted, but because:
a) I think that active templar PCs should be in the dark to provide as much of a challenge as possible, both to themselves and other players, and
b) because having an imm in such a position opens them up to challenges of unfairness, whether founded or not. I have had times when I've experienced doubt about the actions of imms, but frankly I prefer not to.  I'd rather have faith in them than have wild rumors discredit them in my estimation.

However, I think that imms should be able to inhabit these roles, or roles of NPCs, in such a way to fill gaps between other players: for example to cover licensing during off-hours, or to provide some active templar presence when the templarates of each city are in between (player) PC templars.

As for nobles, I would prefer that an imm only play a noble when:
a) no players have stepped up to fill the void, and
b) in cities or situations where their clan is not active (i.e. a Oash imm should be ok to play a Tenneshi noble).

As for merchant family PCs, this may not be a a popular opinion, and no offense to PCs or ImmPCs who've played these roles, but frankly I don't feel they have (during the 2 years I've played) exhibited enough sociopolitical power to prohibit imms from inhabiting these roles. Again, I would like to see preference go to non-imm players, but if none step up, I'm more than glad to see an imm in these positions, even in their own clan.

[da mitey warrior]

The rule about not having imms play PCs in their own clan is a good rule.  In the clans I've been in there's been several times where the clan imm also played the clan's PC leader.  While I don't think anything really wrong came of it, I still think it's a bad idea.  Any character who's tied to an imm automatically gets treated like a 500 pound gorila.  You're can't really interact with them like they are a regular pc.

On the other hand, I think IMMs playing templars and nobles is a good idea.  Those are hard roles to pull off well, and an imm will know better than most exactly how much power their PCs position realistically has and how the different factions relate to eachother.  This gives them 2 advantages over non-imm pcs.  1) they won't do dumb things which are unrealistic for their pcs 2) their broader understanding of the game would let them run plots with more success.

Infact, I'd go so far as to suggest that templars and nobles be made imm-only positions althought I think that's going too far.

[Cenghiz]

When I first joined the MUD, there was noone around, because I was playing about when it's 3-4am in EST. So I picked a ranger as my second char to get used to solo-RP. No offense, but there were all newbies around wandering "n,n,e,l man,say hi..,sit bar". Then suddenly someone tried to steal my torch with great RP technique. I played on, yelling to my friends in the lab "An imm's logged in!".. Since then, I usually think if someone's RPing delicately and he/she appeared out of nowhere, it's an imm.
I didn't meet with any players yelling around "OOC I'm an imm!". How may we know someone's an imm? *shrug*
Eh, lemme shut up. I'm derailing I guess.

[Kalden]

I have a pretty cynical view of people in general, and I'm jaded when it comes to MUD Immortals. Imms are people. People care about themselves and power. Becoming an IMM is just the next step in power and prestige. The worst twinks I've known have been IMMs.

Armageddon probably doesn't have too much of a problem. The playerbase and old staff is mature, the lack of tells/OOC channel cuts a lot of the politics out. But it sends what's left underground and out of sight(dirty rumors, gossip, OOC info sharing).

Armageddon may not have many problems, but leaving the powerse and privileges of the staff open to intrepretation is just asking for trouble eventually.

My suggestions:

1) Write up a list of rules that the IMMs have to follow and show them to the pbase.

2) Keep a list of all the plots going on where all the IMMs can read them.

3) Don't allow long-term possession of NPCs. It becomes a second PC.

4) Heavily encourage low-profile staff PCs.

5) Assign a senior IMM to keep tabs on a newbie(probably already done).

6) Write up a list of the permanent bannings and a short paragraph reason why for each(probably not too necessary here, but who knows). This would be for the players.

7) Address dirty rumors honestly. There's really only two other Armers I talk to regularly OOC, but here's my example: Sujaal got his stats boosted. I never put much stock into that one.

Hmm... that's about it. Of course, I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to Arm and dirty-dealings. My experience with twinkish staff happened mostly at a game called Amaranth, where the owners set themselves up as Gods and made the MUD, full of some good RPers, their playground.

The idea of any IMMs playing PCs hardcore and not overcompensating quite a bit for his/her OOC knowledge could be trouble.

Warrior - intimate understanding of equipment and what is truly uber and l33t.

Assassin - intimate understanding of the crime code, probabilities, and equipment.

Burglar - "

Ranger - locations of poisons, uses, archery, hideouts. Explorer/hunter is one of the more harmless things an IMM could play, though.

Elemantalist - knowledge of all spells and their usefulness, components, ect.

Defiler - "(with more power)

Social roles are the least abusable, and require the most RPing skill to pull off, but I'll quit blabbing.

[Callisto]

Then why bother?

We have a lot of people that would become very hostile towards anyone who suggests the game or the staff are less then perfect. It makes sense people want to avoid the long-term ill-will of some of our players by avoiding exposing themselves in the first place.

I think this is one of the few times posting anonymous is acceptable.

the most constructive post in a long time

He said what I wanted to.

[Sanvean]

Much of what you're suggesting is already done, but this one, I think, is a bad idea:

6) Write up a list of the permanent bannings and a short paragraph reason why for each(probably not too necessary here, but who knows). This would be for the players.

I try to avoid discussing players with other players, because I think that's very unfair and an invasion of privacy.  If someone's banned, I'm not going to add to the punishment by broadcasting the details to the rest of the players.

[Halaster]

since there is a limit to the number allowed in game at any time.

No there isn't.

Edited to add:  I should clarify so that people don't have to go back and read X-D's post.  There is no limit for sorcerers, elementalists, etc., technically.  The karma system was invented for several reasons, one of them being to allow people to play certain roles WITHOUT having to be sponsored.  So, now that it's a number of years later, there are quite a few people with sorcerer as an option.  Since they can just create it without special applications, then really, the only limit is how many people have that option.

There is a limit, however, to nobles and templars, more or less.

[Callisto]

No there isn't.

When did this happen? We just had a discussion a few months ago about karma classes having limited number in game, didn't we? I think Sanvean started the discussion when some people were playing sorcerer after sorcerer or something.

Lazloth, wanna dig it up (assuming the ghosts in my mind aren't playing tricks on me again, that is... )?

[Halaster]

No there isn't.

When did this happen? We just had a discussion a few months ago about karma classes having limited number in game, didn't we? I think Sanvean started the discussion when some people were playing sorcerer after sorcerer or something.

Lazloth, wanna dig it up (assuming the ghosts in my mind aren't playing tricks on me again, that is... )?

Heh, really?  It's news to me..   is there?