The delicate matter of roleplaying when you're an Immortal

[Anonymous]

A while back a rule change occured forbidding Immortals from playing Templars. I wasn't privy to details and I'm not expecting to be now but the out of character stand of many players was that some Immortals in that position made some in character decisions that seemed a bit shady, as if they were perhaps in character reactions to things they found out through their Immortal characters.

Over time, I've been able to pick up on people's playing styles enough to be able to tell what they play and during conversations with friends outside the mud, I've come to the conclusion that if I ever became an Immortal, I would have to stop playing because it would be very hard for me to be able to separate. I know some Immortals can't and yet I know some Immortals who would do great at these sensitive roles so it seems to me that a clear cut solution to this restriction is not easily obtainable.
I'm of the frame of mind that there are certain things that are acceptible behaviour when you are staff and some that are not. I'll share some of my opinions with you and you can chip in.

Acceptible Immortal Roles

Merchant Family members - Provided it is not within a clan they run.  I feel like I should elaborate on this one. Merchant family members have little to no starting power with anyone except their family. Promotions and power will be gained through merit, through savvy political choices, through hard work and money gained for their respective houses.
Positions obtained through promotion - Starting out as a guard or aide and getting your PC promoted to advisor or lieutenant.
Defilers or Preservers - Again, no magicker of this type is going to be given a nice temple and told by Lord Bedemall to practice their element. Most of these will have to lead secret lives and keep their magicks hidden from the world because they're hunted openly by everyone almost.


Questionable Immortal Roles

Mindbenders - Probably the one guild option that can really be questionable if an Immortal played it if for the simple fact that Immortals can and do watch players and can conveniently find reasons to add a certain player to their in character observations. It would be easy to suddenly start hanging out in one tavern so that a friendship or association can be started. Too iffy in my opinion. It'd be best to not even go there.
Nobles - These characters start off with power. They are immediately above any commoner and depending on the House, above most other nobles too. They start with a military force and can use it at their whim.
Templars - Same as above except they start with all kinds of power over the little person and they have the force of a city worth of militia to back them with even the slightest scuffle.

Unfortunately, there is so much amazing roleplaying talent in the Immortal ranks that such a restriction is cheating the player of a possibly wonderful experience.  
How do we remedy this? How do we make it so that the really good roleplayers who have gotten noticed, been promoted and started adding regularly to the world, can continue to impact the playerbase with their roleplaying talent?  Hard to do, I think. From experience and admittance I can tell you that some Immortals have not been capable of separating their out of character knowledge with the knowledge they've been given in character. In retrospect, I know a few Immortals who would be great at these questionable roles and have no problem just avoiding certain situations or players.

I'd like player and Immortal opinions on the topic. What are the options? Trust that an Immortal won't step over the line and watch them like a hawk? Make them quit? Unfair considering these people are supposed to be trusted. If a player finds out an Immortal is playing a certain role I can imagine suddenly everything the PC does will be scrutinized too.

An inquiring mind would like to know.

[Marauder Moe]

First off... if we can't trust immortals not to abuse OOC knowledge, who -can- we trust?  :shock:

Second, as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

[Larrath]

Trust the freaking immortals.

That's all I'm going to say about this.

[Forest Junkie]

Well. I do trust the staff.

If we cannot trust them, then what does this say about the overlords/highlords who handpicked them for such a great responsibility? No player is perfect, and surely no immortal is as well. But that doesn't mean we can't trust them to do what is best for our community and this game as a whole.

If you have reason to suspect an immortal is cheating, or cannot keep their roleplay with said pc seperate from their status as a staffer, I would suggest mailing the mud.

Other than that, I think I would trust all staff, until given a reason not too.

[Krath]

I hate writing out long notes so I am going to get to the point.  This game is owned by the
Immortals. Everything they do, from setting up RPTs, Running clans, to fixing bugs they
do to heighten the experience of the game for everyone.  In Past times(several years ago),
Yes, there have been Immortals whom have taken possible opportunities because of the reasons
you have listed. However, I would not just the past immortals on the Current ones. Without
getting into too IC info, I have seen and known about Immortals playing in clans I have and
they have worked just as hard as the other PCs in the clan to earn the promotions they
were given.  Ultimately, you may believe that an Immortal playing a PC in the clan could be
a biased issue, but I believe that to be wrong.

When it is all said and done, the Immortal of the clan has to approve all promotions for the
characters in their clan. The only instance in which I would say it would be questionable on a
promotion for an Avatar of an Immortal is if the Avatar(immortals PC) in the clan was run by
that actual Clan's IMM. In other instances where Avatar B joins Immortal A's clan and gets a
promotion, I have enough trust and faith in the staff that it was justified.  

I myself, consider it an Honor and  privledge that an immortal would play in a clan that I am
part of.  They add atmosphere, realism, and make things a lot more fun in the clan.  On top
of that you have a huge learning opportunity and a chance to enhance your emoting and
RP ability.

In summary, It is not something I think you should worry about. Immortals have to
have fun also, and if there is an opening in a clan which they believe they could get a lot of
enjoyment from playing, by all means let them join be it the Templarate of either city or
the Super-Sekret-Defilier Bahamet Union, let them do it. Also, Remember, if you
do find out an immortal is playing a character in your clan, Shut the hell up about it. The last
thing they want is 100 people iming them and emailing them. Let them have their fun and
respect their privacy.

[mansa]

I don't think an Immortal's Avatar should be the most visible and most active noble of a noble house.

[Pantoufle]

How do we make it so that the really good roleplayers who have gotten noticed, been promoted and started adding regularly to the world, can continue to impact the playerbase with their roleplaying talent? Hard to do, I think.

One doesn't have to play a noble or templar, or even a merchant house family member, in order to impact the playerbase with so-called roleplaying "talent".  Indeed, the lowliest beggar, if they know what they're doing, can make an impact upon the game world as a whole.

...as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

I remember when Halaster ran the Allanaki Templars and the Rebellion at the same time.  I bet that turned some heads.  But it's all good, the staff are OOC entities.  Just because you run a clan doesn't mean you have to see the world through their eyes, nor even adopt said clan's belief systems.  You really don't have to be "for" a clan to be running it.  

Fact of the matter is, immortal or not, we all have OOC knowledge we have to pretend not knowing IC.  Go make a character in House Kurac and you will quickly learn their hierarchy.  The longer you remain in the clan, the more likely you are to become privy to their shadier side of business.  Then, when your character dies and you find yourself working in opposition with Kurac in your next incarnation, you had better make damned sure you don't come across as using those previous knowledges IC.

But I have seen some questionable stuff happen where, honestly (and no offense), I had to ask "Was that shit legit or were they just taking advantage of what they know as an imm?"  The trouble is, you'll never know!  If I were on staff, I would make damn sure any plot I am running doesn't even LOOK like an OOC heist, just so I know everyone is confident the game is being ran fairly.  Though by the same token I'm sure there have been countless in game affairs that looked OOCly shady and were actually 100% legit, so...

[Anonymous]

Other than that, I think I would trust all staff, until given a reason not too.

Obviously if there's a rule that they can't play certain roles there was reason for them not to be trusted. Maybe not the persons it affects now, but someone down the line must have either crossed that line or appeared to be less than on the up and up, no? Is removing temptation the only way to deal with this? I don't think so.
I think it's perfectly natural to trust those people you hire against the word of someone else and that in itself can be a delicate matter.

[Carnage]

Second, as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

What if the character and the other clan run into trouble, and the immortal's players send them an e-mail saying that they're going to assassinate that character in X manner at Y time?

It's still OOC information that can be used in game and is going to be very difficult to ignore.

[Quirk]

I'm going to have to go with the first poster, here, to some extent. Just because you personally have not heard of or experienced an imm abusing their OOC knowledge in playing their character does not mean it has not happened, or has not happened recently, or will not happen.

I have full confidence that, in time, any persistent abuser of OOC knowledge among the imm staff will be caught and suitably punished. However it will take time to gather enough evidence to nail a rogue immortal whose infringements are not exceedingly blatant - after all, most of us are unaware which PCs belong to imms and which don't, and most of us are reluctant to credit a remarkably savvy PC with OOC knowledge when there are possible IC explanations, so the combination of circumstances required to net even a repeated offender is a fairly rare one. The Overlords cannot be expected to spend their limited time in continually watching imm characters for signs of waywardness, and I don't think they'd claim to be such infallible judges of character that they can guarantee that any imm they appoint will never overstep their authority, or even never grievously overstep their authority.

Safeguards which restrict the amount of harm that can come through OOC knowledge accidentally or purposefully bleeding into the play of immortals' characters are to be welcomed. As the old saw has it: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Ensuring that the potential for such problems is limited is likely to be more effective than trying to repair damage caused by an erring imm.

However, I don't think it should be up to players to set these safeguards, but the Overlords previously mentioned. A balance has to be struck that allows immortals to continue to play interesting characters while shielding the playerbase from the worst consequences of possible abuse, and I don't think the players are qualified to say where that balance lies, from their limited view of the big picture.

Quirk

[Armaddict]

I don't like this thread.  At all.

[Sanvean]

I think this is a useful discussion, and timely, since we've been discussing it on the immortal board recently.  One of the things I've been working on is a set of guidelines for people when running avatars (staff characters).

For what it's worth, I don't think I've seen any deliberate abuses for a long, long time.  I do think that on occasion there are times when people's judgement gets clouded or they rationalize something in a way that they shouldn't, and that's the main reason I'm trying to create those guidelines.

[jhunter]

I haven't  experienced the use of OOC info by an imm "on purpose" as far as I know. But there was one instance where I think an imm used ooc info accidentally (at least I hope so) and I was frustrated by it.

[Anonymous]

A couple of bad, blatant or questionable, experiences can really sour a player. I've had a couple of those and made a choice to not contact the staff because of the tension it would inevitably cause. No one wants to be seen as a trouble maker and clarification can take months or years. It's easier to turn the cheek, walk away and avoid playing with that person again when I spot them. At least for me.

Here's two ideas on how to deal with this:

1) Frequent IC and OOC updates.  I trust that my Immortal isn't going to yell at me for hiring that elf assassin if I tell him in an OOC update because I haven't reported it ICly. What my character reports and what I report should be kept separate.
2) An agreement between Immortals and Overlords detailing that if they are interested in playing a high-power, high-profile character, they will do so exclusively, without any other PCs and only logging in to their Immortal character on Saturday downtimes to work on their clans.  Multiple PCs, which are an Imm job perk, can not only take away from that high profile role, but can lead to information that can cause another played role to be compromised. If you wanna play a big wig, you should concentrate on the big wig only.


If Immortals who wanted to play Templars, Nobles or Mindbenders agreed to those preventative measures, I'd have no problem with their playing those things. Some of the roleplayers up there in Imm land are phenomenal and I honestly think it's a shame that they can't play them... but I've also been on the flip side of someone who shouldn't.

[Xygax]

I'd rather have people with these concerns e-mail the staff so that incidents like this can be investigated.  We take it pretty seriously (as Sanvean mentioned above, there's some discussion about the policies relating to this right now).

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

[marko]

Here are my views on this subject.

Any character that is active when the player is recruited into the staff should be allowed the ability to live out their life naturally.  For example, if someone has a noble and the player then becomes an immortal - that person is given the opportunity to finish up their character or retire.  No pressure.

After that, I do not believe immortals should start up characters that are any sort of family member, templar, karma class over 4, or raider.  The main reason for this is the player reaction to discovering that a character is actually run by an immortal.  Since these particular roles are either important or limited (karama) they will be scrutinized for any possible fault, imagined or real (more often than not imagined).

Players invariably believe that immortals 'cheat' when playing characters of any visibility or responsibility.  No matter how much people deny it, there is always that suspicion that the immortal could be leveraging information across OOC bounds.  

Still, to be fair to new immortals I think they should be allowed to finish up their characters.

[Anonymous]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Any character that is active when the player is recruited into the staff should be allowed the ability to live out their life naturally.  For example, if someone has a noble and the player then becomes an immortal - that person is given the opportunity to finish up their character or retire.  No pressure.

Still, to be fair to new immortals I think they should be allowed to finish up their characters.

I agree 100%.

[Xygax]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Then why bother?

[Forest Junkie]

Fear of backlash from players? Who knows their reasoning. I too prefer for one to show their name. In fact, if there is a topic I feel I cannot post without my name being attributed to it, I shall not post at all.

They must have a reason though, and perhaps may not wish to offend an immortal who thinks they are referring to them specifically.

[Pantoufle]

Then why bother?

I can understand someone's desire for a little anonymity, especially if their login name is their clan name.  If I'm in House Salarr at the time, for example, and I posted under the same name, maybe someone's going to think I've got beef with the Salarr imm by making what is otherwise a completely unrelated post.  Then you have to worry about the potential flood of gossip surrounding your name and so on.  In the end, sometimes it's better to just skip that whole nonsense and post anonymously.  Ain't no thang, really.

And no, I'm not the anonymous poster .

[sarahjc]

My views:

I do not think Immortals should be allowed to play within their own house. I think it causes a lot of conflict and continuing conflict. Hands down this is a no in my book.  

I do not think that Immortals should "recruit" people to their clan. I think they should leave this up to chance.  If you get people you like, you get people like. You will never know what kind of great players are out there, unless you try them on.

I also am pseudo against Imm's having high profile PC's (ie) Merchants, nobles, templars. And not because of abuse, but because of the time factor. Imm's in these roles, unless they are certain that they can take on the role and do a good job, tend to be MIA with the PC a lot, or if they play their PC, neglect the clan a bit. I just think it stalls up the process of getting a player in that spot that could be on more regularly and that can concentrate on the role more. From what I understand Imm work is a time consuming job. Having to play a time consuming role as well would just lead to burn out.

As for High Karma roles, magickers and the what not, I don't see that as an issue at all, most of those type roles are solo type things and don't require as much out of the person as leadership roles. If there is abuse in this role, it will certainly be noticed.

And Xygax, I think that there is a fear factor with people stating abuse asking for events to be investigated. I personally do not mind, amd My imm will tell you, I try to be as open as possible, and occasionally even get a bit snippety. But there are times when things seem a bit fuzzy to me and I as the player need clarification. But by not saying anything or saying it anonymously, you are not helping the problem. The best resolution to conflict is to deal with head on.

If you as the player feel that something isn't on the up and up, talk to  your Imm about it. If you don't resolve it at that level, or feel that the answers you get are, for lack of a better phrase "bull shit". Take it up with the Highlords. Things don't get solved by griping to other players or by anonymous griping.  Because no-one ever thinks the finger is pointed at them.


That's all I have to say about that. And so far, No Karma lost yet.

[Delirium]

Frankly, if I was an immortal, I would want to play a low-responsibility and/or low profile role with my Avatar. It would be a breath of fresh air after all the responsibility and the demands they have to deal with otherwise.

Gossip annoys the bajeezus out of me. I've seen (on other MUDs) what happens when people gossip, and it can be pretty terrible. Not to mention that it's very disrespectful to blather on about which Immortal plays whom because it totally ruins their right to be anonymous and have fun. I've been on the other side of the clouds in another game - and a simple slip of the word from another immortal to a player was all it took - suddenly everyone KNEW I played such-and-such PC - which had the result of completely destroying my fun. It sucked.

[Anonymous]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Then why bother?

Why bother posting annonymously if the people who matter will know who I post anyway? I'll tell ya why, because lately the populace of the GDB seems to be a whole lot less civil than it was before and I think that taking your usual id out of the picture makes people a bit more kind and more apt to entertain someone elses idea. Because doing so avoids the flames of people who flame solely because don't like my GDB nickname.

I chose to be annonymous to the masses knowing full well that the imms that wanna know will know because I wanted to be heard, not flamed.

[Forest Junkie]

I do not think Immortals should be allowed to play within their own house. I think it causes a lot of conflict and continuing conflict. Hands down this is a no in my book.  

I do not think that Immortals should "recruit" people to their clan. I think they should leave this up to chance.  If you get people you like, you get people like. You will never know what kind of great players are out there, unless you try them on.

These are two things that I actually agree with. It can cause more harm than good.

[Armaddict]

And another note.  No immortal playing a PC in the clan that opposes/runs the opposite of the clan they run.

*winces*  And I'll shutup now.

[Bestatte]

I don't know if this would be helpful or not, but in the game I IMMed in, we had some pretty clear rules for the staff. Granted, it wasn't nearly as intensive a RP game as Arm is, but here goes:

1) Whichever city you IMM in, you cannot have an avatar in.

2) If your clan accepts people from any city, you cannot have an avatar in that clan, even if he lives in another city.

2a) You CAN create an NPC, that is exclusively yours, for the express purpose of promoting RP within the clan you run.

3) While you are playing your Avatar, you are not allowed to be logged in as an IMM.

3a) While you are logged in as an IMM, you are not allowed to be logged in with your avatar account.

4) Any violation of the above is subject to disciplinary action, and any abuse caused by any violation of the above is subject to immediate dismissal.

Now - I was basically a full-time IMM (semi-head builder, storyteller, de-bugger, ran 2-3 different clans and 1 RPT every week, customer service, etc. etc. etc.), so often I would play my PC while I was IMMing, which was technically against the rules. But they also knew that I would have had no time to play if I didn't play while being logged in as a staff member, since I was ALWAYS available as a staff member. So they cut me some slack on that.

But even then - if a customer needed my attention as a staffer (It's a pay-to-play) I would almost always log off my PC from the game so I could give my full attention to the customer. And when an RPT involved the clan my PC was in, or the city my PC was in, I would log out as an IMM and just play my PC.

I think this is a fair way to handle things - it's important for staff members to continue playing -as players- so they can keep in touch with the concerns that players have, and experience those concerns for themselves. But it's also important for them to not be tempted to allow their IMM-knowledge to interfere with their player-knowledge, and so seperation is unfortunately necessary.

It isn't a matter of trust, in most cases. It's more a matter of common sense. If you've been on both sides of the coin, you'd understand this.

[jmordetsky]

I have a very different take on all of this.

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

And one of them should play Tek.


Also, that said...Things seem to fine as is, so why mess with it?

[Forest Junkie]

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

Immortals should not be the ultimate plot drivers. The players should be. The staff, IMO, is here to help and guide us when in need. Overall though, I think it's up to the players to create plots, not the immortals.

I think most staff, even, would agree with that assessment, as alot of players strive to bring about their own stories.

[Carnage]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

[mansa]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

What we are really talking about, is an Immortals avatar, which is their PC, much like ours.  It's their character that is not out there to run things.  It's their own little toy to have their fun with.  They need a break from their own clanmates.

It's almost assumed that Immortals have a various ammount of NPCs that they have set up as the clan 'heads' and whatnot.  They -do- do the things you say...

The discussion here is when an immortal isn't logged in as their 'immortal' but as their Avatar.

[Cuusardo]

On the mud I IMM on, the IMMs are allowed to have PCs.  Those PCs are generally checked up on periodically to ensure that the IMM is not cheating for that character (giving them uber-awesome gear, for example.)  I would assume that things are the same on Armageddon.

[wizturbo]

I agree with Marko on this, but only to a certain degree.

I see no problem with allowing staff to play high karma characters, such as mindbenders and sorcerors.  I think they're the most qualified to play them, and it adds to the game.

I do have a problem with creating noble or merchant family members, Templars, or positions of that nature.  I agree with Marko's reasons, and I also believe that the access to OOC information an immortal has can effect their judgement even if its unintentional.  Immortals -are- human.

[Savak]

I don't much care who anyone is, anonymous or not.  The main difference to ME is that if something is posted anonymously I tend to ignore it because I've got no way to identify with its source.  Kinda like junk mail.  Maybe that's just me.  But I can appreciate that people can be a bit judgemental and have long memories.

Speaking of which -- staff-run PC's.  I played for several years before coming on staff, and during THAT time always assumed that any strange tangents from what I expected was completely IC.  So, I lived a happy life as a player, if a tenuous one as a PC.  The only incident that worried me was after a clan-mate assassinated someone they begain immediately receiving abusive sends; kinda an obvious one there, and that staff member has been gone now longer than most of you have been out of diapers.

I think it's important to point out, however, that staff members are EXPECTED to use OOC information IC'ly.  Most of the NPC's we breathe life into or plots we guide require it.  We have to know who is involved with who, who has what influence, what that hand signal just meant to tribe Z, etc. etc., just in order to respond APPROPRIATELY.  The difference is that we bear the responsibility of using it appropriately -- in time, place, and content.  Really, so do most players -- simply that we have oodles more OOC and IC information at our fingertips and near omnipotence within the game world, and thus much higher expectations to do "the right thing," which is precisely as vague to adhere to as it sounds.

I don't have much worry about staff well and truly "abusing" knowledge while playing a personal PC, because obvious abuses are, well.. obvious.  And thus get recognised & dealt with quickly.

My greater concern lies with grey situations.  As we all know, it's very easy to get personally attached to a PC we are playing -- thus, it is also difficult to completely avoid rationalising their knowledge and actions.  What I don't really WANT to be worried about is how players perceive staff actions, because I know these tend to be exaggerated (just as staff perceptions of player actions are sometimes exaggerated), but I don't think this is something that will go away.  That's just how large groups of people are.

I'll add here another point.  I would much MUCH prefer to find ways to INFUSE our staff back into the playerbase rather than further ISOLATE them.  If we can't do that because people are too afraid of the alternative, then so be it, but we should recognise the relative loss, and are doing our best to minimise it while maximising everyone's enjoyment.

-Savak

[Gilvar]

To clarify the Templar issue, we arn't allowed to play Templars not for a trust issue really, but because there is usually a limit on Templar-characters, meaning that if an Immortal is playing one it prevents a player from doing so. And the general consensus up here is that we'd rather have players in potentially rewarding and exciting roles like that then Immortals who in most cases have either already done it, or could through NPCs.

[Lazloth]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I disagree with this completely:  I really couldn't care less who an immortal plays (templar, sorc, dried goods salesman), but I'd find it knavish if their PCs were tied with their clans; animating NPCs is, of course, a completely different story.  Further (and I realize it will never come to pass), I'd think it were a perfect world if the clans an immortal "owned" cycled around regularly -- for many of the same reasons players are encouraged to do something different from PC to PC.

[Delirium]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

Their right to play and enjoy the game from time to time as a PC, without their character being pinpointed as being one belonging to an Immortal; and therefore suddenly being subject to all sorts of OOC criticism, suspicion, suck-up attempts, and other similar and no less annoying things.

I've been there and done that on another MUD, and ended up retiring the character.

I realize Carnage's quote was probably just a jab in the 'anonymous posting' sub-argument, but since it was my quote taken out of context, I felt the need to clarify.

[X-D]

I don't have a problem with imms having pc's and I don't have a problem with them playing whatever clan they want, I -do- however think they should be limited in karma roles above 5, these should be reserved more for non-imm players, since there is a limit to the number allowed in game at any time.

I have seen what I consider improper use of imm gained knowledge in game before, unfortunatly most times there has been no way for me to -prove- it, something that will be the case 99% of the time because the players do not have the means to do so. That and often it can be explained away too easily, often it is a flimsy explanation IMO but oh well.

[Carnage]

their right to be anonymous

Come again?

Their right to play and enjoy the game from time to time as a PC, without their character being pinpointed as being one belonging to an Immortal; and therefore suddenly being subject to all sorts of OOC criticism, suspicion, suck-up attempts, and other similar and no less annoying things.

I've been there and done that on another MUD, and ended up retiring the character.

I realize Carnage's quote was probably just a jab in the 'anonymous posting' sub-argument, but since it was my quote taken out of context, I felt the need to clarify.

No, I'm just curious where you got all these ideas on 'rights' from. What 'rights' do players have?

[Delirium]

It was a figure of speech, Carnage.

[jmordetsky]

In my humble oppinion, not only should immortals be playing high profile, high karma players, but they should be actively playing them in their own clan, all the time, and ONLY in their own clan.

I think immortals, should focus solely on one or more NPCs within a clan. When my immortal is active in the game around me, my characters will normally gain direction, enthusiasm and empowerment.

I guess in a sense, I'm saying immortals shouldn't have regular PCs running around elsewhere, but only play their group of clan npcs.

This would probably make it suck to be an immortal, but....

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

This essentially takes away any questions on whether ooc abuse is possible because it would then be completely possible.  At this point any abuse would be so flagrantly obvious that the honor system would be forced to uphold itself.

The clan npc's should be the Imm's players. They are the ultimate karma chars.

What we are really talking about, is an Immortals avatar, which is their PC, much like ours.  It's their character that is not out there to run things.  It's their own little toy to have their fun with.  They need a break from their own clanmates.

It's almost assumed that Immortals have a various ammount of NPCs that they have set up as the clan 'heads' and whatnot.  They -do- do the things you say...

The discussion here is when an immortal isn't logged in as their 'immortal' but as their Avatar.

Agreed, but what I posed was the concept of an immortal never playing an Avatar but rather focus solely on their npcs.

[jmordetsky]

Immortals are the ultimate plot drivers. 100 percent more then clan leaders. When the NPC's are animated and plots are generated around their human desires the game comes alive.

Immortals should not be the ultimate plot drivers. The players should be. The staff, IMO, is here to help and guide us when in need. Overall though, I think it's up to the players to create plots, not the immortals.

I think most staff, even, would agree with that assessment, as alot of players strive to bring about their own stories.

1 year ago I would have completely agreed with you, but my recent experiences have changed my mind. Imm run clan based RPTs rock.

Players should form the directions and outcomes of such things, but when an Imm is there with you help to shape the story nothing is better. Hands down, the most fun I've had durring this game is when an IMM was providing the "effects" of player actions, through various channels....env emotes, npc actions etc.

You need the DM....

[crymerci]

Ok without going off too much on any of the side-tangents, here's what I think:

I don't think imms should play templars as a regular PC.  Not because I think they can't be trusted, but because:
a) I think that active templar PCs should be in the dark to provide as much of a challenge as possible, both to themselves and other players, and
b) because having an imm in such a position opens them up to challenges of unfairness, whether founded or not. I have had times when I've experienced doubt about the actions of imms, but frankly I prefer not to.  I'd rather have faith in them than have wild rumors discredit them in my estimation.

However, I think that imms should be able to inhabit these roles, or roles of NPCs, in such a way to fill gaps between other players: for example to cover licensing during off-hours, or to provide some active templar presence when the templarates of each city are in between (player) PC templars.

As for nobles, I would prefer that an imm only play a noble when:
a) no players have stepped up to fill the void, and
b) in cities or situations where their clan is not active (i.e. a Oash imm should be ok to play a Tenneshi noble).

As for merchant family PCs, this may not be a a popular opinion, and no offense to PCs or ImmPCs who've played these roles, but frankly I don't feel they have (during the 2 years I've played) exhibited enough sociopolitical power to prohibit imms from inhabiting these roles. Again, I would like to see preference go to non-imm players, but if none step up, I'm more than glad to see an imm in these positions, even in their own clan.

[da mitey warrior]

The rule about not having imms play PCs in their own clan is a good rule.  In the clans I've been in there's been several times where the clan imm also played the clan's PC leader.  While I don't think anything really wrong came of it, I still think it's a bad idea.  Any character who's tied to an imm automatically gets treated like a 500 pound gorila.  You're can't really interact with them like they are a regular pc.

On the other hand, I think IMMs playing templars and nobles is a good idea.  Those are hard roles to pull off well, and an imm will know better than most exactly how much power their PCs position realistically has and how the different factions relate to eachother.  This gives them 2 advantages over non-imm pcs.  1) they won't do dumb things which are unrealistic for their pcs 2) their broader understanding of the game would let them run plots with more success.

Infact, I'd go so far as to suggest that templars and nobles be made imm-only positions althought I think that's going too far.

[Cenghiz]

When I first joined the MUD, there was noone around, because I was playing about when it's 3-4am in EST. So I picked a ranger as my second char to get used to solo-RP. No offense, but there were all newbies around wandering "n,n,e,l man,say hi..,sit bar". Then suddenly someone tried to steal my torch with great RP technique. I played on, yelling to my friends in the lab "An imm's logged in!".. Since then, I usually think if someone's RPing delicately and he/she appeared out of nowhere, it's an imm.
I didn't meet with any players yelling around "OOC I'm an imm!". How may we know someone's an imm? *shrug*
Eh, lemme shut up. I'm derailing I guess.

[Kalden]

I have a pretty cynical view of people in general, and I'm jaded when it comes to MUD Immortals. Imms are people. People care about themselves and power. Becoming an IMM is just the next step in power and prestige. The worst twinks I've known have been IMMs.

Armageddon probably doesn't have too much of a problem. The playerbase and old staff is mature, the lack of tells/OOC channel cuts a lot of the politics out. But it sends what's left underground and out of sight(dirty rumors, gossip, OOC info sharing).

Armageddon may not have many problems, but leaving the powerse and privileges of the staff open to intrepretation is just asking for trouble eventually.

My suggestions:

1) Write up a list of rules that the IMMs have to follow and show them to the pbase.

2) Keep a list of all the plots going on where all the IMMs can read them.

3) Don't allow long-term possession of NPCs. It becomes a second PC.

4) Heavily encourage low-profile staff PCs.

5) Assign a senior IMM to keep tabs on a newbie(probably already done).

6) Write up a list of the permanent bannings and a short paragraph reason why for each(probably not too necessary here, but who knows). This would be for the players.

7) Address dirty rumors honestly. There's really only two other Armers I talk to regularly OOC, but here's my example: Sujaal got his stats boosted. I never put much stock into that one.

Hmm... that's about it. Of course, I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to Arm and dirty-dealings. My experience with twinkish staff happened mostly at a game called Amaranth, where the owners set themselves up as Gods and made the MUD, full of some good RPers, their playground.

The idea of any IMMs playing PCs hardcore and not overcompensating quite a bit for his/her OOC knowledge could be trouble.

Warrior - intimate understanding of equipment and what is truly uber and l33t.

Assassin - intimate understanding of the crime code, probabilities, and equipment.

Burglar - "

Ranger - locations of poisons, uses, archery, hideouts. Explorer/hunter is one of the more harmless things an IMM could play, though.

Elemantalist - knowledge of all spells and their usefulness, components, ect.

Defiler - "(with more power)

Social roles are the least abusable, and require the most RPing skill to pull off, but I'll quit blabbing.

[Callisto]

Then why bother?

We have a lot of people that would become very hostile towards anyone who suggests the game or the staff are less then perfect. It makes sense people want to avoid the long-term ill-will of some of our players by avoiding exposing themselves in the first place.

I think this is one of the few times posting anonymous is acceptable.

the most constructive post in a long time

He said what I wanted to.

[Sanvean]

Much of what you're suggesting is already done, but this one, I think, is a bad idea:

6) Write up a list of the permanent bannings and a short paragraph reason why for each(probably not too necessary here, but who knows). This would be for the players.

I try to avoid discussing players with other players, because I think that's very unfair and an invasion of privacy.  If someone's banned, I'm not going to add to the punishment by broadcasting the details to the rest of the players.

[Halaster]

since there is a limit to the number allowed in game at any time.

No there isn't.

Edited to add:  I should clarify so that people don't have to go back and read X-D's post.  There is no limit for sorcerers, elementalists, etc., technically.  The karma system was invented for several reasons, one of them being to allow people to play certain roles WITHOUT having to be sponsored.  So, now that it's a number of years later, there are quite a few people with sorcerer as an option.  Since they can just create it without special applications, then really, the only limit is how many people have that option.

There is a limit, however, to nobles and templars, more or less.

[Callisto]

No there isn't.

When did this happen? We just had a discussion a few months ago about karma classes having limited number in game, didn't we? I think Sanvean started the discussion when some people were playing sorcerer after sorcerer or something.

Lazloth, wanna dig it up (assuming the ghosts in my mind aren't playing tricks on me again, that is... )?

[Halaster]

No there isn't.

When did this happen? We just had a discussion a few months ago about karma classes having limited number in game, didn't we? I think Sanvean started the discussion when some people were playing sorcerer after sorcerer or something.

Lazloth, wanna dig it up (assuming the ghosts in my mind aren't playing tricks on me again, that is... )?

Heh, really?  It's news to me..   is there?

[flurry]

I think Callisto is referring to this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7607&start=0

[Forest Junkie]

Yes, there is.

[Halaster]

I think Callisto is referring to this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7607&start=0

Hmmmmmm....

Looks to me like it was all discussion, and there was nothing really settled on.  A few weeks ago we began discussing this again on the Imm boards.  I'm going to go take it up there, heh, since I am apparently lost and shouldn't be.  Thanks for pointing all this out to me, though.

[Bestatte]

A lot of things suggested so far I like. But there is one thing that might add to the stew, which isn't a good thing:

I suggest that once a written policy is made, that the players do -not- have access to it. The reason is this, using an example:

If I know that IMMs are allowed to play clan PCs in the clan I'm in, I will always wonder which PC in my clan is the IMM's. Some players (maybe even me - I admit - I'm nosey!) will try to guess, will watch the RP of my fellow clanners, will scrutinize every act, every RP moment, everything said, etc. etc. etc. - while it makes for a fun OOC game sometimes between you and yourself, this guessing, it also detracts from the RP because EVENTUALLY you'll come to the conclusion that someone's been cheating. It's inevitable.

If I know that IMMs are -not- allowed to play clan PCs in the clan I'm in, if I was a snert-typa chick, I might think - man - that RPer looks like a musher, so he must be new, since he isn't an IMM. I can totally abuse the code and he'll never know I did it, and PK his ass or lead him to the mekillot or spam-steal from him or blah blah blah and no one will know I was twinking out because he isn't an IMM and it's 6 in the morning so no IMMs are around to see, so I'm safe.

The only problem with this - is that IMMs come and go, and once you're an IMM, you know the rules, and once you're no longer an IMM, the temptation to tell your buddies rises. Anyone who thinks that can't possibly ever happen, has never seen the other side of the game. It doesn't happen often, but it -does- happen, and no game is immune to it.

While it doesn't change the RP of -most- people when they know, guess, or suspect someone of being an IMM's PC, it does open a huge can of worms for people who DO change their RP when they know, guess, or suspect. And so I think it would be a good idea to not announce what the new rules are - but instead, to just let us know that there are new rules as of "x" date, and that the Overlords have determined them to be fair to all.

It really isn't anyone's business who plays who, and who is allowed to play who, and who is forbidden to play who. It's no different from the staff telling us a list of who has what karma. And as such, I don't think the players have any need to know if staffers are allowed to play this or that role as a PC.

[spawnloser]

Further (and I realize it will never come to pass), I'd think it were a perfect world if the clans an immortal "owned" cycled around regularly -- for many of the same reasons players are encouraged to do something different from PC to PC.

You have obviously never been in a clan that had a complete IMM ownership change.  On the PC side, I can say for certain, it was disorienting at best, as the IMMs didn't know anything that had happened for the last IG decade...and every NPC's personality shifted, at least just a little bit as different staff interpreted the NPC backgrounds slightly differently.  Things get worked out, obviously, but for a little while, everything's head over heels.  I could imagine this being the case with IMMs as well.  All of a sudden, they're in a whole new stewpot with all sorts of new things they need to remember, like all the NPCs, active plots, PCs...the list goes on.  I have nothing against the staff

Now, this isn't to say that I'm completely against this idea, considering many clans now have two staffers running it, as long as cycling happens with overlap and not often.

Other things:
If any role has a limit to the amount being played in game, I would prefer it go to a player first, as has been said...any type of role that has a limit.  I don't care which clan, as long as it isn't their own clan.  When playing, you shouldn't have your character's fate in your hand...it's like hacking a saved game file of some computer game to give you what you want, be it promotion or permission to do X thing.  If you're playing the game, whether staff or not, you are a player...not an IMM.  The IMMs decide the fate of a character.  Like if you were playing table-top.  If you are the GM, you are not a player, and vice versa...you don't run for your own character.  Any other clan, go right ahead and best of wishes...though, just so there is some mystery, I would think they would prefer to play in another city, just so it's not too easy.  Who wants to play a game they can not fail in?

[sarahjc]

I disagree Bestatte. I think the players should be aware of what the imm's are and are not allowed to do and exactly what the game policies are in the contexts of them being an Avatar. If Imm's are not allowed to play certain roles, I would like to know that as a player. If Imm's aren't allowed to do certain things, I would like to know that as a player. If you are nosey, simply not knowing the rules will stop you from being that way.  If people want to play the who is who game, you can't stop them. I agree that we should not be allowed to see rules that only effect the immortals and are in place for them to do their job, but when it comes to Imm/PC relations we should all be on the same page.

[Sanvean]

Regarding limits on sorcerers and psionicists:

Some people have karma for these.  Others can send in special applications for them, and in the past, if there have been a glut of existing characters of that guild, we've turned them down and asked them to reapply later on.

There were several cases of people, sometimes ex-staffers, running the same character class over and over and over again, which contributed to the glut, and Naephet proposed removing those options from ex-staffers.  In the end, we decided not to do this, but we've also changed the policy where ex-staffers automatically got access to these guilds.

I'd like to move away from the idea of having limited numbers, because it means tracking numbers, which is tedious, and just figure that gluts are eventually self-correcting.  If I see someone running the same character class over and over again, I'll say something, usually, if the character concepts end up blurring together.  It's a good idea to mix things up a little bit and try something new with each chaaracter, imo.

[Sanvean]

7) Address dirty rumors honestly. There's really only two other Armers I talk to regularly OOC, but here's my example: Sujaal got his stats boosted. I never put much stock into that one.

I'm going back to reply to this as well.  We don't usually know what rumors are going around (I hadn't heard this one, for example), and in my experience, 9 out of 10 times, the pieces of information people are solemnly swearing are true, no, really, on their mother's graves - are absolutely wrong.  

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!  Often I do see things that piss me off enormously.  But outside the game and its appurtenances (like this board or the website), you're free to do whatever you like - just don't bring that OOC crap into the game.  I don't want to have to play cop  - it's a role I find uncomfortable and beyond that, it's a monumental task that I don't think anyone can perform, short of being an agency able to invoke the Patriot Act.  

I don't want to have to play 20 Questions every time a rumor pops up, nor do I want to play the "Is so-and-so played by a staff member?" game, because in my opinion, the staff has the same right as the players to play the game and enjoy themselves, as long as they're playing by the rules and not at the expense of anyone else's enjoyment.

(Is this brought up in this thread because there's a belief Sujaal was an avatar?  If so, I will say that's another rumor that's untrue.)

[Bestatte]

I disagree Bestatte. I think the players should be aware of what the imm's are and are not allowed to do and exactly what the game policies are in the contexts of them being an Avatar. If Imm's are not allowed to play certain roles, I would like to know that as a player. If Imm's aren't allowed to do certain things, I would like to know that as a player. If you are nosey, simply not knowing the rules will stop you from being that way.  If people want to play the who is who game, you can't stop them. I agree that we should not be allowed to see rules that only effect the immortals and are in place for them to do their job, but when it comes to Imm/PC relations we should all be on the same page.

How does knowing the rules of the staff change your roleplay, your interaction with the PCs? It shouldn't. Unfortunately, with many people (especially new people who are always in awe of those NPCs that get animated), it will. There's no getting around it. I would LOVE to know if the Noble Lord of House Dipshit might be played by an IMM. But that's a personal curiosity, and really none of my business. There's no reason why I -should- know this. And because there's no reason why I -should- know this, I don't feel it is necessary for the Overlords to announce it.

If an individual IMM feels it necessary to expose his identity to his clan members when he plays a PC in that clan, it's his prerogative. But I don't feel that players have any particular right, or reason, to know that it's possible until and unless the individual IMM chooses to share this information with us about his own PC.

Edited to add: Once an IMM gets an avatar to play, he should enjoy the same privileges with that character as any other player does and be subject to the same rules. My point regards the restrictions on the IMM in creating that avatar in the first place, not anything that occurs after that avatar is created. A rule saying that an IMM cannot play a sorcerer (for example), announced to the player base, is no different from telling the players that *this particular IMM* doesn't have sorcerer karma. And that is no different from saying that *this particular player* doesn't have sorcerer karma. I just don't think it's anyone's business.

[Krath]

Ok..Maybe I am just the oddball out, which I am pretty sure I am, but who cares? Why
should you worry if an IMM is playing a character or not? Why can you not mind your own
damn business. They want to have fun to, LET THEM. Explain to me how it is taking away
if Sanvean is playing a Templar, Magicker, Assassin, clan leader, whatever the hell
it may be in that point in time that she wants to play? Why is it your business, and how
is it going to affect you gameplay? Frankly, It is not your business and It should not effect
your game play. So an immortal is a clan leader who recruits, what does it matter? The elder
IMMS(Sanvean, Brixius, Nessalin, and who ever else I am forgetting) trusted them with
the powers to be an immortal, so why should we not trust them with PCs? No one has yet
given a VALID point as to _HOW_ immortals playing an important role takes away from
the game? If you have a problem with it or think an immortal is doing something not
"legit" Email Nessalin. Shit, I will be the first one to tell you he is very unbiased. If you
fuck up he will let you know, blatently and take the actions necessary. I am just tired of
reading the same thing over and over about it isnt fair, it is no fun and there is favoritism. Fuck that.

Lets start with Templars:

Immortals should not be able to play Templars because there is a cap on how many can
be ingame at a time. This statement is TRUE. However, if an immortal does play a
templar, there is a Reason. And the Clan imm oversees all the actions of the templar
anyway, So why should it matter. Maybe there was no one for the job so Clan IMM Said
hey I have an open templar role if someone wants to play. I am also pretty sure,
Avatars being Templars, or any class which has a cap does not go towards the
cap number.


Nobles and Highranking Merchant Family Members:

Simply said, If the positions are open, They should be able to apply for it assuming they
can devote the time and effort to such a position. This is the only spot where _I_
would be wary about because of the time needed to dedicate to these roles.  If they
apply and there is no one else with enough time to devote, By all means let them play.
Something is better than nothing right?

Whatever, If this came off as a flame I am sorry, It is how I feel and it frustrates me
when People think because on "Other games" because "Other Immortals" cheat and hoarde
things, that our immortals do as well. Well this is not that other game and these are not those
other immortals who did those things. So I say "fuck that".

[Pantoufle]

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!

See, that kind of shit really gets under my skin and makes me gag with nausea.  The fact that anyone gives a shit who said what in IRC enough to send it to the staff like a preschooler is big time uncool.  I tell you what, if I were running a MUD and someone sent me a log of another player talking shit about me, even, I'd like to think that I would shrug and disregard the whole affair.  Hell, I'd like to think I might even punish the jackass who sent it to me for thinking they can play the role of a taddle teller and expect me to dole out punishments as a result.  But that's just me.

[sarahjc]

Bestatte

Well, firstly I think that they shouldn't be allowed to do it. And secondly I don't think that they should have to announce it if they are. But I do not see why we all can't be privy to what the rules are. I'm not asking to have a peak behind the curtain or anything, I just want to know what I am dealing with in my clan.  Are my IC actions going to be any different, No. But OOCly it is nice to be aware, because, abuse -does- happen, people -do- take advantage, be it on purpose or in some way rationalized. Plus Imms are held to a hire standard than players. When an imm breaches trust or does something via OOC info, it is that much worse. They are supposed to be the examples and clearly we are all skeptical as is. I have heard stories from so many players on abuse and things that just sound completely shady, most of them having to deal with Imm's being in clan roles, in their clan. Though these were all coming from the players, so I think the vantage point of events is a bit in their favor, still the problems are out there.

Two things I would like to see and they are hard I know.. But I would like to see them.

1. Imm accounts stay anonymous, at least up to the highlord level. Sanvean, Well we all know who you are, we even have a picture. Imm's should have friends.. Just not with the Imm account name unless it is with other Imm's. This is hard, if not impossible. But I think it's important. Most Imm's take on a new account name when they become an Imm and try to be anonymous for as along as they can. Why?? A #1 Because it disassociates the player with Immortal account.  2. It prevents people from crying favoritism, and stops people from asking their "friends" favors.  If your Imm account is connected with you, then change it, I think not letting out your Imm account name is the most important thing you can do as an Imm.

2. And please, I like chatting with some Imm's, but please don't come on chat channels with your Imm name and or talk amongst your friends about Imm stuff, or at least be as vague as possible. You all have or at one point had an Avatar account. Use it. This is the type of thing is the worst part of the OOC info infection that we hear about. I know one Imm that actually follows these rules, keeps all her stuff private and I have no idea about most of it. I know she is an Imm, But who she is and what she does, she keeps vague, and I don't ask questions.

[Bestatte]

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!

See, that kind of shit really gets under my skin and makes me gag with nausea.  The fact that anyone gives a shit who said what in IRC enough to send it to the staff like a preschooler is big time uncool.  I tell you what, if I were running a MUD and someone sent me a log of another player talking shit about me, even, I'd like to think that I would shrug and disregard the whole affair.  Hell, I'd like to think I might even punish the jackass who sent it to me for thinking they can play the role of a taddle teller and expect me to dole out punishments as a result.  But that's just me.

Note: This is a hypothetical situation that might look familiar, or might not, but it's never happened to ME so I honestly wouldn't know.

If someone ever PMed me in IRC and told me he was planning on killing Joe Bynner, and had arranged with his buddies via PM/AIM/ICQ/whatever to train certain ways and create characters who are second cousins all getting together secretly and he invited me to join in on the "fun" so I could be in on the OOC arrangements, because you know I don't like "player of" Joe Bynner

You better believe I'd e-mail the staff. So for anyone who doesn't want to be "outted" for making OOC plans to contrive IC plotlines in that manner, don't tell me. Because yeah - I'll be a tattle-tale and get your ass in trouble. I might not like the player of Joe Bynner. I might have serious issues with Joe Bynner's player. Maybe I can't stand his ass and wish he'd drop off the face of the earth. But I will NOT involve my personal feelings for that player in my roleplay. So just keep me out of it, OR accept that I'm gonna hand you to the staff.

[Bestatte]

Sarahjc wrote:

2. And please, I like chatting with some Imm's, but please don't come on chat channels with your Imm name and or talk amongst your friends about Imm stuff, or at least be as vague as possible. You all have or at one point had an Avatar account. Use it. This is the type of thing is the worst part of the OOC info infection that we hear about. I know one Imm that actually follows these rules, keeps all her stuff private and I have no idea about most of it. I know she is an Imm, But who she is and what she does, she keeps vague, and I don't ask questions.

I can't agree more. Totally - absolutely - 100%. Too often I'll go to the chatroom and see an IMM and a few players being all friends and cozy and buddies and what not. I think it's GREAT that IMMs have friends in the game. But if you know even ONE of those characters that the players play, and that character gets into something really nifty in the game, you're gonna start wondering if that IMM had something to do with it. Or if you see an IMM being mean-spirited to a player the IMM doesn't seem to like, and that player complains that something bad happened to his character 2 days later...it's gonna make you wonder if that IMM had something to do with it.  This is a HUGE disservice to the player and the IMM, but by coming in -as an IMM- and being very open pals with the players, you're asking for trouble.

IMMs, when they come into public chat rooms, should remember that they are there using their IMM identity. And they should respect that representation of the game if they want to continue "being" an IMM in the chat room. If they want to "be" just "regular player type people" - then they should come with a player identity, and not as an IMM, and they should attempt to keep the two identities secret for as long as possible, like Sarah says.

[Cenghiz]

It's too paranoiac.. All I can say.. Play the game! I used to be a paranoiac, too. It wasn't fun.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sadly enough, this has become a much-replied to topic. Players are wanting, no, I say, demanding that staff watch over the staff, suggesting that twinkerism is often a flaw of the staff, suggesting that players who worked long and hard to have badass, pumped-up characters are twinks or avatars...

What in the fuck do you care? How the hell does it take away from your motherfucking game? Why in the sands of Zalanthas does it matter who plays what, or who plays where? If IMM A wants to play in clan A, then who the fuck cares, long as that IMM runs Clan A correctly? Why can't you just worry about your character and not worry too much about who is playing the motherfucking PCs around you? How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience? And that is what you came for, Spy girls and boys, some motherfucking RP.

[Krath]

What in the fuck do you care? How the hell does it take away from your motherfucking game? Why in the sands of Zalanthas does it matter who plays what, or who plays where? If IMM A wants to play in clan A, then who the fuck cares, long as that IMM runs Clan A correctly? Why can't you just worry about your character and not worry too much about who is playing the motherfucking PCs around you? How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience? And that is what you came for, Spy girls and boys, some motherfucking RP.

This is why I am rooming with him.

[Larrath]

Why can't we just trust the imms?

Why does everything have to be favoritism or cheating or trade of OOC information or whatever?

This thread was given the stamp of legitimacy, but I still don't understand why people are so distrustful.  The immortals can watch your character whenever and however they want for the purpose of "gathering material for a comment" or whatever and then share that information...so you're worried about a mindbender?

Sometimes, good things just happen to some players.  I assume that most of the people on the IRC channel have been playing Arm for at least...three years now?  I don't really see the reasoning for this.

*shrug*  Maybe I'm just too new a player, but I personally don't see any issue here.

I don't really see the problem with imms playing the 'position' or high-karma roles...just as long as they do not hog them.

Why not hog them?  Simply because it hurts the sense of "that templar is so awesome!  I'm going to play one someday, too!" some of us players get.

Immortals are still players, and they're usually pretty damn good ones.  If I had to choose between a mediocre non-staffer templar or a kickass one that is from the staff, I'd go with the staff.

And if they're both as good then I could care less as to whether or not they are avatars.  They're templars!

Yeah.

[ShaLeah]

:!: Warning:[/b] This is not an "Immortals are eating my brain post" and anyone who thinks that should read the post again and focus on the good.  

I've been asked to come forward as the Annonymous Kank by someone I respect and so I will.

Why can't we just trust the imms?

*shrug*  Maybe I'm just too new a player, but I personally don't see any issue here.

It's not an issue of not trusting the Imms. They are trusted as a whole. There have been times though when certain Imms have done things in character that have been seen as questionable.  It obviously hasn't happened to you but if you read the thread carefully you'll note people that it has happened to.  I'm sorry to say but you feel that way because you can't relate to the experience. Let me give you some of the examples of things that have happened to me and that I have seen as iffy without the accusatory mention of names which I don't like.

:arrow: One Imm approached me through OOC after the death of one of my PCs to give me their OOC contact information.
:arrow: One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.
:arrow: I retired a character because one of the people playing in my clan at the time got promoted to Immortal AND was playing a PC in the clan at the time.  There was a history that I tried very hard to avoid IC'ly, I warned the Immortal in charge of the clan about it and this Immortal even spoke to the other Imm/PC person about it but the things continued happening so I retired and got a semi bad mark on my account.
:arrow: I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.
:arrow: I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.
:arrow: I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.
:arrow: I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.
:arrow: I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.
:arrow: I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.  I freely admit that I avoid any contact with Imm run PCs that I can spot if that Immortal and I have had some kind of problem in the past. I find that this works best for me because I feel that no matter what I say, this person is still going to be an Immortal.  

How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience?

It changes it immensely when the Immortal in question has a history of hating your characters or playing favorites or knowing everything. It changes it immensely.

Just because you haven't personally had a bad experience with an Immortal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Before this degrades into further stf asshole, I'd like to say this:

I didn't mail mud with these things because it is entirely too easy for an Immortal PC to justify IC behavior that is a result of OOC information gathered or OOC dislike towards the person running a PC. You don't think they can find a reason to justify their PC's dislike of you? If you think that, you're clueless. I've had it happen to me, the same Immortal hating every one of my PCs. Until you experience it personally, which I hope it continues being the rarity that it is and you never have to find out about it, getting upset and abusive to anyone who it has happened to is not being constructive in the least.

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

I've had this discussion with various OOC friends for years now and goddamnit, I trust the Immortals as a whole but I am not stupid enough to think that they are infallible or not tempted. You don't think they have their favorite players? People they enjoy roleplaying with? Do you honestly think that gaining the favor and admiration of an Immortal isn't going to have favorable consequences to your account or PC?

They're human and just like we the players have rules of engagement to make the roleplaying experience the best possible for everyone involved, they should (and do) too.
Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.[/i]

[Krath]

:arrow: One Imm approached me through OOC after the death of one of my PCs to give me their OOC contact information.

Maybe they enjoyed your RP and wish to give you information on upcoming availibilities within your clan for good RP.

:arrow: One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

Mistakes happen as you said.

:arrow: I retired a character because one of the people playing in my clan at the time got promoted to Immortal AND was playing a PC in the clan at the time.  There was a history that I tried very hard to avoid IC'ly, I warned the Immortal in charge of the clan about it and this Immortal even spoke to the other Imm/PC person about it but the things continued happening so I retired and got a semi bad mark on my account..

I agree with you here.

:arrow: I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Maybe they were trying to make things interesting, perhaps start a plot within the clan.

:arrow: I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates..

So what, It is not your PC, Do not worry about it. If PC agrees to go with monogamy, then so be it, I do not see how it is your business. I myself stick with Monogamy Ingame, just because it is the way I am. I do not think you should force your beliefs about how arm should be upon other players.

:arrow: I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism...

Once again, So what? So Immortal A allows player B to play five characters in the same clan back to back. If the concept is good Go ahead.  Plus a majority of clan's recruiting are done by PCs. Now if the Immortal gave Special app role after special App Role I would agree without, and only under that circumstance.
...[/quote]

:arrow: I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC....

They are called stalkers, they are in real life and ingame. People will go out of their way to talk to other people they have a physical interest in.  Once again, trying to start plots up.

:arrow: I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan..

I need you to explain this more. Explain how you mean favorites in the clan and do you mean you got blamed ICLY or OOCLY?

:arrow: I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud...

What is your point? So they might have set up a meeting between a PC and their house/clan Leader which is an NPC.




Now, I respect you a lot shaleah, I just do not agree with this. So maybe we can agree to disagree

[ShaLeah]

Maybe they enjoyed your RP and wish to give you information on upcoming availibilities within your clan for good RP.

I can tell you with certainty that that was not the case.

Maybe they were trying to make things interesting, perhaps start a plot within the clan.

They weren't IN my clan and it was a PC, not an NPC. If you want to start a plot, use NPCs. This Immortal also had nothing to do with administrating my clan.

So what, It is not your PC, Do not worry about it. If PC agrees to go with monogamy, then so be it, I do not see how it is your business. I myself stick with Monogamy Ingame, just because it is the way I am.[/i] I do not think you should force your beliefs about how arm should be upon other players.

This is not real life, it's Zalanthas. Monogamy can be practiced, sure, but the fact is that with the richest people having concubines, wives/husbands AND pleasure slaves, the likelyhood that it would be prevalent is slim.  I'm all for Imm interaction but I would rather an Imm play a PC if they wanna play continuously with me than to use NPCs to do so. We shouldn't be playing how we are, we should be playing according to the life people lead on Zalanthas.

Once again, So what? So Immortal A allows player B to play five characters in the same clan back to back. If the concept is good Go ahead.  Plus a majority of clan's recruiting are done by PCs. Now if the Immortal gave Special app role after special App Role I would agree without, and only under that circumstance.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Shows of favoritism are a sign of OOC boundary shading.

They are called stalkers, they are in real life and ingame. People will go out of their way to talk to other people they have a physical interest in.  Once again, trying to start plots up.

When said PC (not NPC) is run by an Immortal who continuously shows the inability to do anything but hate every character of mine despite differences in persona, I reserve the right as a player to OOCly make a decision to ICly avoid contact with that Immortal. Fuck their plots. Give them to someone who isn't going to know that in the end they'll end up hating my character and plotting their death. Once is a coincidence, twice is a rarity, three, four times with the same result? Gimme a break.

What is your point? So they might have set up a meeting between a PC and their house/clan Leader which is an NPC.

My point is that this is a PC, not an NPC. You wouldn't find it disturbing that seconds after logging in the PC of an Immortal Ways you? It could be seen as a coincidence, players playing at the exact same time every day and such. Given the Immortal and the situation though, my personal opinion differs.

Now, I respect you a lot shaleah, I just do not agree with this. So maybe we can agree to disagree

That's cool.  You'll still always be my little Bro

I answered some of your questions and others I didn't, hope you respect that and the fact that some things I will not elaborate on or detail to protect the privacy of others involved.

[Krath]

My only question was with your response to this one:

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.



So just to clarify the same powerful IMM PC did that to more than one of your chars?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have had a violent disagreement with an Immortal before, and so now, I do not like or respect that Immortal OOCly, because I felt like the whole things was just bloody childish. But you know what? I would never take that disagreement IC. I know what it is like to be disliked by an Immortal, and you know what else? It just stands that I do not care. I'm playing a game. I don't care of that Immortal kills me or not, just as long as it is IC, or at least appears to be IC. If it gets outta hand, then yeh, I'll get heated, but I try not to be a conspirisy theorist. I think that the Immortal in question is a proffesional most of the time, and past the event that happened, I have never had another issue with them.

I reinterate. I just don't give a fuck. I'm playing a game that I enjoy, and I won't allow some petty BS and rumors to ruin it for me. I love this motherfucking game.

[ashyom]

I'll just respond to the relevant points.

One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

It happens.  Not every staff knows whether you use or don't use a particular nick in public.

I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Are you sure imms were involved?  I've seen instances where people thought this or that PC was imm, and it wasn't.   Otherwise, can't really comment without knowing more.

I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.

ROFL, I've never heard of this.

I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.

As someone said, PCs do the recruiting.  However, if it seems excessive, we'll step in and tell the recruitee to try playing elsewhere for awhile.

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.

You may not have known all of the circumstances behind this sudden interest.

I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.

So, basically, someone ICly set you up.  A PC told you to do something that, based on lack of info here, was a no no.  Should the "imm PC" not have fallen for it? (Again, assuming it was an imm's pc)

I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

And the rest of the pbase doesn't do that?

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.

If it doesn't bother you, posting on GDB is different from emailing, how?

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

So it's ok for us to play weak chars?  =P  I don't see how this restriction would improve things any.

I want to add that not all of the Staff are in leader roles, in fact, most don't want to be.  We deal with so much responsibility on daily basis, both in game and RL.  The game should be a stress buster.  However, from time to time, some of the staff feels the urge to explore a different, more challenging role.  Some of these roles include playing a noble, psionic, sorcerer, etc.  We don't typically, however, because we don't want to take up slots from players.

In my experience, when a staffer plays one of these roles, they are very conscious about what they do with the character.  I haven't played any of these highly-visible roles as a staffer yet; infact, I think the highest karma role I've played was a krathi and despite that, when faced with a situation that could affect another player negatively, I still agonize over questions like, "Is this IC or OOC feeling I'm having toward this situation?  Should my character not go ahead with this or not, even if it is IC for him/her?"  If
anything, we're overly cautious precisely because of players who will and have throw a fit if they figure out the person behind their demise is an imm and complain and whine and gossip to anyone that'll listen.

So, because of this, staffers have assassins who don't assassinate.  Thieves who don't burgle, sorcerers that don't strike fear in the tiny shriveled hearts of people everywhere...Sucks that we have a conscience, eh?

Anyways, I was at first a little irate with this thread, but now I find humor in it.  Several players brought up good points, and they've been helpful in the Staff's discussions on how to regulate who plays what roles.
-Ashyom

[ShaLeah]

I'll just respond to the relevant points.

One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

It happens.  Not every staff knows whether you use or don't use a particular nick in public.

I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Are you sure imms were involved?  I've seen instances where people thought this or that PC was imm, and it wasn't.   Otherwise, can't really comment without knowing more.

I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.

ROFL, I've never heard of this.

I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.

As someone said, PCs do the recruiting.  However, if it seems excessive, we'll step in and tell the recruitee to try playing elsewhere for awhile.

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.

You may not have known all of the circumstances behind this sudden interest.

I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.

So, basically, someone ICly set you up.  A PC told you to do something that, based on lack of info here, was a no no.  Should the "imm PC" not have fallen for it? (Again, assuming it was an imm's pc)

I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

And the rest of the pbase doesn't do that?

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.

If it doesn't bother you, posting on GDB is different from emailing, how?

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

So it's ok for us to play weak chars?  =P  I don't see how this restriction would improve things any.

I want to add that not all of the Staff are in leader roles, in fact, most don't want to be.  We deal with so much responsibility on daily basis, both in game and RL.  The game should be a stress buster.  However, from time to time, some of the staff feels the urge to explore a different, more challenging role.  Some of these roles include playing a noble, psionic, sorcerer, etc.  We don't typically, however, because we don't want to take up slots from players.

In my experience, when a staffer plays one of these roles, they are very conscious about what they do with the character.  I haven't played any of these highly-visible roles as a staffer yet; infact, I think the highest karma role I've played was a krathi and despite that, when faced with a situation that could affect another player negatively, I still agonize over questions like, "Is this IC or OOC feeling I'm having toward this situation?  Should my character not go ahead with this or not, even if it is IC for him/her?"  If
anything, we're overly cautious precisely because of players who will and have throw a fit if they figure out the person behind their demise is an imm and complain and whine and gossip to anyone that'll listen.

So, because of this, staffers have assassins who don't assassinate.  Thieves who don't burgle, sorcerers that don't strike fear in the tiny shriveled hearts of people everywhere...Sucks that we have a conscience, eh?

Anyways, I was at first a little irate with this thread, but now I find humor in it.  Several players brought up good points, and they've been helpful in the Staff's discussions on how to regulate who plays what roles.
-Ashyom

Heh.  And people wonder why I posted annonymously. To the person who IMed me yesterday to discuss why I posted annonymously, this is exactly what I was talking about.

1) I do believe that I mentioned that I thought it was a mistake but played through it anyway. The character only told one other person about her real name after the Imm had already used it, just in case the Imm mentioned it to the character by mistake.
2) I am positive that the PC was played by an Imm. I can smell this Imm a mile away.
3) Just cause you haven't seen or heard it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
4) These PCs are playing OOCly rectruited positions or family members. If you rectruit someone to play a family member I can guarantee you that they're going to in turn ask their friends to join them. I've been asked to play roles by friends, I'm sure you have too.
5) I can smell this Imm a mile away and as I said before, it's easy to justify behavior ICly if it's something you wanted to do OOCly.
6) Without going into details, no, my PC wasn't set up and I'm not going to elaborate more.
7) The rest of the player base doesn't have an Immortal character capable of seeing when someone their PC wants to speak to logs on. The rest of the player base can't log off said Imm char and then log their PC character in to do so.

Warning: This is not an "Immortals are eating my brain post" and anyone who thinks that should read the post again and focus on the good.
None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.[/i]
I never said it didn't bother me. I said it doesn't bother me anymore to the point where I feel the need to email mud and have something done about it. This was/is a topic of discussion that I have spent a lot of OOC time on in both conversation and thought and obviously others have too since we have five pages within two days. I would like to prevent things like this from happening to other people.
9) Lucky for me and others, some do.

I think this is a useful discussion, and timely, since we've been discussing it on the immortal board recently.  One of the things I've been working on is a set of guidelines for people when running avatars (staff characters).

For what it's worth, I don't think I've seen any deliberate abuses for a long, long time.  I do think that on occasion there are times when people's judgement gets clouded or they rationalize something in a way that they shouldn't, and that's the main reason I'm trying to create those guidelines.

I don't accuse people of questionable behavior without cause. I had and still have my reasons as to why I did not email mud. I brought the thread up because it is a valid concern to the player base it affects.

I believe I am done contributing with this thread.

ShaLeah[/i]
-who is going to watch without participating from now on...

[Bestatte]

I've seen some of the things ShaLeah's talking about. I've been on the receiving end of a very -very- small amount of it. It happens. It happens here, it happens in every game, it happens in the real life corporate world, it happens in big families in real life. To have faith that it doesn't happen in this game is to be blind to realities of human nature.

HOWEVER

I think that simply not informing the players of any new policies regarding which types of characters the staff is and is not allowed to play, will solve a HUGE chunk of it.

If ShaLeah didn't know that this or that PC was played by an IMM, she might not have suspected foul play. That doesn't mean she definitely wouldn't have - but that little voice in her head that said "Aha!" might not have been so loud.

Staffers need to be more careful of this kind of thing than anyone else in the game, BECAUSE of perceived victimization. ShaLeah's specific situations might be totally on the mark, or might be totally coincidence, or totally legit ICly. She has no way of knowing, she's stating how she PERCEIVES it, and I agree with her that grouped together like that, it smells kinda bad.

If she didn't know it was an IMM though - they could easily have all been coincidences and she could've continued playing happily and totally oblivious to any OOC machinations going on. And that probably would've been FINE, if you think about it. Like Venomz says - it doesn't matter if it was arranged OOCly or ICly, whatever it is. What matters is that you shouldn't have any reason to know, or even wonder. And keeping the IMM policy confidential will solve a huge chunk of that problem.

[Halaster]

Just out of curiosity, whoever this Imm is that you have a bad history with, have you emailed them directly and asked them to leave you alone, or try to work it out with them?  You may have, I don't know.  I'm just wondering, because, that's typically the best approach before posting on the GDB or something.

[Xygax]

I'm not sure there's a whole lot more than can be added to this thread, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it up before it decays into flames or goes beyond its original scope.

The staff already concede (as Sanvean has suggested in her previous posts), that there is, at the very least, a risk of a perception of cheating or favoritism, or even as someone mentioned previously the risk of making an honest mistake that exposes someone to an event that shouldn't have happened but did because of OOC knowledge.  This risk is meaningful (someone asked why you should care) because we feel strongly about the use of OOC channels and its effect on our game, and it doesn't matter what those channels are.  If it taints a player's experience of the mud overall, it's a Bad Thing; something we should try to diminish as much as possible, whether it be by adding code, improving policy and communication, or sending ninjas to peoples' houses.

I don't think we have anyone on staff that would overtly oppose a player or their character (either with their avatar or via staff channels) simply because they didn't like that player.  Most likely, if you feel you have been persecuted by a staff member, it is the result of a series of coincidences and bad timing; or the personality clashes you think you have with them in RL end up pouring through the virtual personalities you both tend to create in your PCs.  Sometimes, people just don't get along in the real world or on Zalanthas.  This occurs among the player-community as much or more than it occurs between players and staff.

If you feel that a staff member -in particular- is using OOC information gained by their staff position to do you harm, e-mail the mud account.  If you feel that ANYONE (staff or otherwise) is carrying a grudge against you that they play out in PC after PC, e-mail the mud account.  This forum is not an appropriate venue for those concerns in either case, even if you voice them in vagaries and are an non-specific as you can be.  All that you can hope to gain by posting them here is to foment suspicion and mistrust between the staff and the players (yes, both ways).  It will not result in positive interaction.

That said, I think a lot of the discussion here has been productive and I know that a lot of you are proposing policies that either are already in effect or that have been bandied about between us all for a long time, and know that your feedback is appreciated.

I'll be glad to get more suggestions via e-mail if you feel that some idea or particular point has escaped this discussion.

Thanks,

[Sanvean]

A few things.

One - when people log in, we don't see their chosen nickname.  We see (whatever their actual name is) has entered the world.  For the most part, we try very very hard to respect aliases, but it's difficult when that character is usually known by their actual name up in immland. Mistakes happen, though, and are usually followed by an "OH CRAP" on the imm channel.

Two - I am not aware of -any- clan where a player has been allowed to make a family member over and over and over again.  Seriously.  I know there is a lot of speculation about who plays what, and 90% of the time people are wrong, so my presumption is that this is more of the same.

Similarly, I'm not aware of any immortal making repeated PCs just to persecute other characters, and it's something that I would consider a gross violation of staff guidelines.  There was an incident two or three years ago where a staff member was asked to rein in their avatar(s), but since that was dealt with at the time, I'm presuming old history is not being dredged up again.

I will say that I have seen staff members be more eager to work with the players who are more pleasant to work with and/or better roleplayers, which seems pretty reasonable to me. Saying things like "you suck" or demonstrating too much OOC involvement is usually not calculated to make someone feel real inclined to deal with you on a daily basis.  Again, this would seem to be a no-brainer.  Just as in real life, if you're nasty, people are not going to want to be around you. Is this favoritism?

Three - It would be nice if people didn't play "guess the staffer"! I can think of at least one staff member who, upon coming to staff recently, was messaged by a player trying to guess their identity in a very intrusive way.  It seems to me to be way too much interest in OOC and not enough in the IC dimensions of other characters.  

Four - I don't think people should be logging on their avatars the minute they see the person they want to play with log in, but perhaps for different reasons, because to me it's a sure tip-off that it's an avatar.  Otoh, I'm not sure how this is different than arranging to play with a friend, which is a pretty common practice among the playerbase.  I can understand why someone might choose to hang out fixing typos or building objects while waiting for their buddy to appear.

Five - I'll post the guidelines in the next couple of days when they're more final, since this is something that people are interested in.  It would be nice (and probably more productive) to see more discussion of the overall picture and less of laundry lists of old grievances.

In the meantime, I'd suggest treating other characters as what they are - other characters.