The delicate matter of roleplaying when you're an Immortal

[flurry]

I think Callisto is referring to this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7607&start=0

[Forest Junkie]

Yes, there is.

[Halaster]

I think Callisto is referring to this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7607&start=0

Hmmmmmm....

Looks to me like it was all discussion, and there was nothing really settled on.  A few weeks ago we began discussing this again on the Imm boards.  I'm going to go take it up there, heh, since I am apparently lost and shouldn't be.  Thanks for pointing all this out to me, though.

[Bestatte]

A lot of things suggested so far I like. But there is one thing that might add to the stew, which isn't a good thing:

I suggest that once a written policy is made, that the players do -not- have access to it. The reason is this, using an example:

If I know that IMMs are allowed to play clan PCs in the clan I'm in, I will always wonder which PC in my clan is the IMM's. Some players (maybe even me - I admit - I'm nosey!) will try to guess, will watch the RP of my fellow clanners, will scrutinize every act, every RP moment, everything said, etc. etc. etc. - while it makes for a fun OOC game sometimes between you and yourself, this guessing, it also detracts from the RP because EVENTUALLY you'll come to the conclusion that someone's been cheating. It's inevitable.

If I know that IMMs are -not- allowed to play clan PCs in the clan I'm in, if I was a snert-typa chick, I might think - man - that RPer looks like a musher, so he must be new, since he isn't an IMM. I can totally abuse the code and he'll never know I did it, and PK his ass or lead him to the mekillot or spam-steal from him or blah blah blah and no one will know I was twinking out because he isn't an IMM and it's 6 in the morning so no IMMs are around to see, so I'm safe.

The only problem with this - is that IMMs come and go, and once you're an IMM, you know the rules, and once you're no longer an IMM, the temptation to tell your buddies rises. Anyone who thinks that can't possibly ever happen, has never seen the other side of the game. It doesn't happen often, but it -does- happen, and no game is immune to it.

While it doesn't change the RP of -most- people when they know, guess, or suspect someone of being an IMM's PC, it does open a huge can of worms for people who DO change their RP when they know, guess, or suspect. And so I think it would be a good idea to not announce what the new rules are - but instead, to just let us know that there are new rules as of "x" date, and that the Overlords have determined them to be fair to all.

It really isn't anyone's business who plays who, and who is allowed to play who, and who is forbidden to play who. It's no different from the staff telling us a list of who has what karma. And as such, I don't think the players have any need to know if staffers are allowed to play this or that role as a PC.

[spawnloser]

Further (and I realize it will never come to pass), I'd think it were a perfect world if the clans an immortal "owned" cycled around regularly -- for many of the same reasons players are encouraged to do something different from PC to PC.

You have obviously never been in a clan that had a complete IMM ownership change.  On the PC side, I can say for certain, it was disorienting at best, as the IMMs didn't know anything that had happened for the last IG decade...and every NPC's personality shifted, at least just a little bit as different staff interpreted the NPC backgrounds slightly differently.  Things get worked out, obviously, but for a little while, everything's head over heels.  I could imagine this being the case with IMMs as well.  All of a sudden, they're in a whole new stewpot with all sorts of new things they need to remember, like all the NPCs, active plots, PCs...the list goes on.  I have nothing against the staff

Now, this isn't to say that I'm completely against this idea, considering many clans now have two staffers running it, as long as cycling happens with overlap and not often.

Other things:
If any role has a limit to the amount being played in game, I would prefer it go to a player first, as has been said...any type of role that has a limit.  I don't care which clan, as long as it isn't their own clan.  When playing, you shouldn't have your character's fate in your hand...it's like hacking a saved game file of some computer game to give you what you want, be it promotion or permission to do X thing.  If you're playing the game, whether staff or not, you are a player...not an IMM.  The IMMs decide the fate of a character.  Like if you were playing table-top.  If you are the GM, you are not a player, and vice versa...you don't run for your own character.  Any other clan, go right ahead and best of wishes...though, just so there is some mystery, I would think they would prefer to play in another city, just so it's not too easy.  Who wants to play a game they can not fail in?

[sarahjc]

I disagree Bestatte. I think the players should be aware of what the imm's are and are not allowed to do and exactly what the game policies are in the contexts of them being an Avatar. If Imm's are not allowed to play certain roles, I would like to know that as a player. If Imm's aren't allowed to do certain things, I would like to know that as a player. If you are nosey, simply not knowing the rules will stop you from being that way.  If people want to play the who is who game, you can't stop them. I agree that we should not be allowed to see rules that only effect the immortals and are in place for them to do their job, but when it comes to Imm/PC relations we should all be on the same page.

[Sanvean]

Regarding limits on sorcerers and psionicists:

Some people have karma for these.  Others can send in special applications for them, and in the past, if there have been a glut of existing characters of that guild, we've turned them down and asked them to reapply later on.

There were several cases of people, sometimes ex-staffers, running the same character class over and over and over again, which contributed to the glut, and Naephet proposed removing those options from ex-staffers.  In the end, we decided not to do this, but we've also changed the policy where ex-staffers automatically got access to these guilds.

I'd like to move away from the idea of having limited numbers, because it means tracking numbers, which is tedious, and just figure that gluts are eventually self-correcting.  If I see someone running the same character class over and over again, I'll say something, usually, if the character concepts end up blurring together.  It's a good idea to mix things up a little bit and try something new with each chaaracter, imo.

[Sanvean]

7) Address dirty rumors honestly. There's really only two other Armers I talk to regularly OOC, but here's my example: Sujaal got his stats boosted. I never put much stock into that one.

I'm going back to reply to this as well.  We don't usually know what rumors are going around (I hadn't heard this one, for example), and in my experience, 9 out of 10 times, the pieces of information people are solemnly swearing are true, no, really, on their mother's graves - are absolutely wrong.  

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!  Often I do see things that piss me off enormously.  But outside the game and its appurtenances (like this board or the website), you're free to do whatever you like - just don't bring that OOC crap into the game.  I don't want to have to play cop  - it's a role I find uncomfortable and beyond that, it's a monumental task that I don't think anyone can perform, short of being an agency able to invoke the Patriot Act.  

I don't want to have to play 20 Questions every time a rumor pops up, nor do I want to play the "Is so-and-so played by a staff member?" game, because in my opinion, the staff has the same right as the players to play the game and enjoy themselves, as long as they're playing by the rules and not at the expense of anyone else's enjoyment.

(Is this brought up in this thread because there's a belief Sujaal was an avatar?  If so, I will say that's another rumor that's untrue.)

[Bestatte]

I disagree Bestatte. I think the players should be aware of what the imm's are and are not allowed to do and exactly what the game policies are in the contexts of them being an Avatar. If Imm's are not allowed to play certain roles, I would like to know that as a player. If Imm's aren't allowed to do certain things, I would like to know that as a player. If you are nosey, simply not knowing the rules will stop you from being that way.  If people want to play the who is who game, you can't stop them. I agree that we should not be allowed to see rules that only effect the immortals and are in place for them to do their job, but when it comes to Imm/PC relations we should all be on the same page.

How does knowing the rules of the staff change your roleplay, your interaction with the PCs? It shouldn't. Unfortunately, with many people (especially new people who are always in awe of those NPCs that get animated), it will. There's no getting around it. I would LOVE to know if the Noble Lord of House Dipshit might be played by an IMM. But that's a personal curiosity, and really none of my business. There's no reason why I -should- know this. And because there's no reason why I -should- know this, I don't feel it is necessary for the Overlords to announce it.

If an individual IMM feels it necessary to expose his identity to his clan members when he plays a PC in that clan, it's his prerogative. But I don't feel that players have any particular right, or reason, to know that it's possible until and unless the individual IMM chooses to share this information with us about his own PC.

Edited to add: Once an IMM gets an avatar to play, he should enjoy the same privileges with that character as any other player does and be subject to the same rules. My point regards the restrictions on the IMM in creating that avatar in the first place, not anything that occurs after that avatar is created. A rule saying that an IMM cannot play a sorcerer (for example), announced to the player base, is no different from telling the players that *this particular IMM* doesn't have sorcerer karma. And that is no different from saying that *this particular player* doesn't have sorcerer karma. I just don't think it's anyone's business.

[Krath]

Ok..Maybe I am just the oddball out, which I am pretty sure I am, but who cares? Why
should you worry if an IMM is playing a character or not? Why can you not mind your own
damn business. They want to have fun to, LET THEM. Explain to me how it is taking away
if Sanvean is playing a Templar, Magicker, Assassin, clan leader, whatever the hell
it may be in that point in time that she wants to play? Why is it your business, and how
is it going to affect you gameplay? Frankly, It is not your business and It should not effect
your game play. So an immortal is a clan leader who recruits, what does it matter? The elder
IMMS(Sanvean, Brixius, Nessalin, and who ever else I am forgetting) trusted them with
the powers to be an immortal, so why should we not trust them with PCs? No one has yet
given a VALID point as to _HOW_ immortals playing an important role takes away from
the game? If you have a problem with it or think an immortal is doing something not
"legit" Email Nessalin. Shit, I will be the first one to tell you he is very unbiased. If you
fuck up he will let you know, blatently and take the actions necessary. I am just tired of
reading the same thing over and over about it isnt fair, it is no fun and there is favoritism. Fuck that.

Lets start with Templars:

Immortals should not be able to play Templars because there is a cap on how many can
be ingame at a time. This statement is TRUE. However, if an immortal does play a
templar, there is a Reason. And the Clan imm oversees all the actions of the templar
anyway, So why should it matter. Maybe there was no one for the job so Clan IMM Said
hey I have an open templar role if someone wants to play. I am also pretty sure,
Avatars being Templars, or any class which has a cap does not go towards the
cap number.


Nobles and Highranking Merchant Family Members:

Simply said, If the positions are open, They should be able to apply for it assuming they
can devote the time and effort to such a position. This is the only spot where _I_
would be wary about because of the time needed to dedicate to these roles.  If they
apply and there is no one else with enough time to devote, By all means let them play.
Something is better than nothing right?

Whatever, If this came off as a flame I am sorry, It is how I feel and it frustrates me
when People think because on "Other games" because "Other Immortals" cheat and hoarde
things, that our immortals do as well. Well this is not that other game and these are not those
other immortals who did those things. So I say "fuck that".

[Pantoufle]

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!

See, that kind of shit really gets under my skin and makes me gag with nausea.  The fact that anyone gives a shit who said what in IRC enough to send it to the staff like a preschooler is big time uncool.  I tell you what, if I were running a MUD and someone sent me a log of another player talking shit about me, even, I'd like to think that I would shrug and disregard the whole affair.  Hell, I'd like to think I might even punish the jackass who sent it to me for thinking they can play the role of a taddle teller and expect me to dole out punishments as a result.  But that's just me.

[sarahjc]

Bestatte

Well, firstly I think that they shouldn't be allowed to do it. And secondly I don't think that they should have to announce it if they are. But I do not see why we all can't be privy to what the rules are. I'm not asking to have a peak behind the curtain or anything, I just want to know what I am dealing with in my clan.  Are my IC actions going to be any different, No. But OOCly it is nice to be aware, because, abuse -does- happen, people -do- take advantage, be it on purpose or in some way rationalized. Plus Imms are held to a hire standard than players. When an imm breaches trust or does something via OOC info, it is that much worse. They are supposed to be the examples and clearly we are all skeptical as is. I have heard stories from so many players on abuse and things that just sound completely shady, most of them having to deal with Imm's being in clan roles, in their clan. Though these were all coming from the players, so I think the vantage point of events is a bit in their favor, still the problems are out there.

Two things I would like to see and they are hard I know.. But I would like to see them.

1. Imm accounts stay anonymous, at least up to the highlord level. Sanvean, Well we all know who you are, we even have a picture. Imm's should have friends.. Just not with the Imm account name unless it is with other Imm's. This is hard, if not impossible. But I think it's important. Most Imm's take on a new account name when they become an Imm and try to be anonymous for as along as they can. Why?? A #1 Because it disassociates the player with Immortal account.  2. It prevents people from crying favoritism, and stops people from asking their "friends" favors.  If your Imm account is connected with you, then change it, I think not letting out your Imm account name is the most important thing you can do as an Imm.

2. And please, I like chatting with some Imm's, but please don't come on chat channels with your Imm name and or talk amongst your friends about Imm stuff, or at least be as vague as possible. You all have or at one point had an Avatar account. Use it. This is the type of thing is the worst part of the OOC info infection that we hear about. I know one Imm that actually follows these rules, keeps all her stuff private and I have no idea about most of it. I know she is an Imm, But who she is and what she does, she keeps vague, and I don't ask questions.

[Bestatte]

I'm aware that there's a big OOC network - various folks send me logs of IRC or IM conversations on a regular basis with demands that I do! something! about! it! immediately!

See, that kind of shit really gets under my skin and makes me gag with nausea.  The fact that anyone gives a shit who said what in IRC enough to send it to the staff like a preschooler is big time uncool.  I tell you what, if I were running a MUD and someone sent me a log of another player talking shit about me, even, I'd like to think that I would shrug and disregard the whole affair.  Hell, I'd like to think I might even punish the jackass who sent it to me for thinking they can play the role of a taddle teller and expect me to dole out punishments as a result.  But that's just me.

Note: This is a hypothetical situation that might look familiar, or might not, but it's never happened to ME so I honestly wouldn't know.

If someone ever PMed me in IRC and told me he was planning on killing Joe Bynner, and had arranged with his buddies via PM/AIM/ICQ/whatever to train certain ways and create characters who are second cousins all getting together secretly and he invited me to join in on the "fun" so I could be in on the OOC arrangements, because you know I don't like "player of" Joe Bynner

You better believe I'd e-mail the staff. So for anyone who doesn't want to be "outted" for making OOC plans to contrive IC plotlines in that manner, don't tell me. Because yeah - I'll be a tattle-tale and get your ass in trouble. I might not like the player of Joe Bynner. I might have serious issues with Joe Bynner's player. Maybe I can't stand his ass and wish he'd drop off the face of the earth. But I will NOT involve my personal feelings for that player in my roleplay. So just keep me out of it, OR accept that I'm gonna hand you to the staff.

[Bestatte]

Sarahjc wrote:

2. And please, I like chatting with some Imm's, but please don't come on chat channels with your Imm name and or talk amongst your friends about Imm stuff, or at least be as vague as possible. You all have or at one point had an Avatar account. Use it. This is the type of thing is the worst part of the OOC info infection that we hear about. I know one Imm that actually follows these rules, keeps all her stuff private and I have no idea about most of it. I know she is an Imm, But who she is and what she does, she keeps vague, and I don't ask questions.

I can't agree more. Totally - absolutely - 100%. Too often I'll go to the chatroom and see an IMM and a few players being all friends and cozy and buddies and what not. I think it's GREAT that IMMs have friends in the game. But if you know even ONE of those characters that the players play, and that character gets into something really nifty in the game, you're gonna start wondering if that IMM had something to do with it. Or if you see an IMM being mean-spirited to a player the IMM doesn't seem to like, and that player complains that something bad happened to his character 2 days later...it's gonna make you wonder if that IMM had something to do with it.  This is a HUGE disservice to the player and the IMM, but by coming in -as an IMM- and being very open pals with the players, you're asking for trouble.

IMMs, when they come into public chat rooms, should remember that they are there using their IMM identity. And they should respect that representation of the game if they want to continue "being" an IMM in the chat room. If they want to "be" just "regular player type people" - then they should come with a player identity, and not as an IMM, and they should attempt to keep the two identities secret for as long as possible, like Sarah says.

[Cenghiz]

It's too paranoiac.. All I can say.. Play the game! I used to be a paranoiac, too. It wasn't fun.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sadly enough, this has become a much-replied to topic. Players are wanting, no, I say, demanding that staff watch over the staff, suggesting that twinkerism is often a flaw of the staff, suggesting that players who worked long and hard to have badass, pumped-up characters are twinks or avatars...

What in the fuck do you care? How the hell does it take away from your motherfucking game? Why in the sands of Zalanthas does it matter who plays what, or who plays where? If IMM A wants to play in clan A, then who the fuck cares, long as that IMM runs Clan A correctly? Why can't you just worry about your character and not worry too much about who is playing the motherfucking PCs around you? How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience? And that is what you came for, Spy girls and boys, some motherfucking RP.

[Krath]

What in the fuck do you care? How the hell does it take away from your motherfucking game? Why in the sands of Zalanthas does it matter who plays what, or who plays where? If IMM A wants to play in clan A, then who the fuck cares, long as that IMM runs Clan A correctly? Why can't you just worry about your character and not worry too much about who is playing the motherfucking PCs around you? How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience? And that is what you came for, Spy girls and boys, some motherfucking RP.

This is why I am rooming with him.

[Larrath]

Why can't we just trust the imms?

Why does everything have to be favoritism or cheating or trade of OOC information or whatever?

This thread was given the stamp of legitimacy, but I still don't understand why people are so distrustful.  The immortals can watch your character whenever and however they want for the purpose of "gathering material for a comment" or whatever and then share that information...so you're worried about a mindbender?

Sometimes, good things just happen to some players.  I assume that most of the people on the IRC channel have been playing Arm for at least...three years now?  I don't really see the reasoning for this.

*shrug*  Maybe I'm just too new a player, but I personally don't see any issue here.

I don't really see the problem with imms playing the 'position' or high-karma roles...just as long as they do not hog them.

Why not hog them?  Simply because it hurts the sense of "that templar is so awesome!  I'm going to play one someday, too!" some of us players get.

Immortals are still players, and they're usually pretty damn good ones.  If I had to choose between a mediocre non-staffer templar or a kickass one that is from the staff, I'd go with the staff.

And if they're both as good then I could care less as to whether or not they are avatars.  They're templars!

Yeah.

[ShaLeah]

:!: Warning:[/b] This is not an "Immortals are eating my brain post" and anyone who thinks that should read the post again and focus on the good.  

I've been asked to come forward as the Annonymous Kank by someone I respect and so I will.

Why can't we just trust the imms?

*shrug*  Maybe I'm just too new a player, but I personally don't see any issue here.

It's not an issue of not trusting the Imms. They are trusted as a whole. There have been times though when certain Imms have done things in character that have been seen as questionable.  It obviously hasn't happened to you but if you read the thread carefully you'll note people that it has happened to.  I'm sorry to say but you feel that way because you can't relate to the experience. Let me give you some of the examples of things that have happened to me and that I have seen as iffy without the accusatory mention of names which I don't like.

:arrow: One Imm approached me through OOC after the death of one of my PCs to give me their OOC contact information.
:arrow: One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.
:arrow: I retired a character because one of the people playing in my clan at the time got promoted to Immortal AND was playing a PC in the clan at the time.  There was a history that I tried very hard to avoid IC'ly, I warned the Immortal in charge of the clan about it and this Immortal even spoke to the other Imm/PC person about it but the things continued happening so I retired and got a semi bad mark on my account.
:arrow: I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.
:arrow: I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.
:arrow: I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.
:arrow: I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.
:arrow: I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.
:arrow: I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.  I freely admit that I avoid any contact with Imm run PCs that I can spot if that Immortal and I have had some kind of problem in the past. I find that this works best for me because I feel that no matter what I say, this person is still going to be an Immortal.  

How the hell does who plays what change your krath-damned RP experience?

It changes it immensely when the Immortal in question has a history of hating your characters or playing favorites or knowing everything. It changes it immensely.

Just because you haven't personally had a bad experience with an Immortal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Before this degrades into further stf asshole, I'd like to say this:

I didn't mail mud with these things because it is entirely too easy for an Immortal PC to justify IC behavior that is a result of OOC information gathered or OOC dislike towards the person running a PC. You don't think they can find a reason to justify their PC's dislike of you? If you think that, you're clueless. I've had it happen to me, the same Immortal hating every one of my PCs. Until you experience it personally, which I hope it continues being the rarity that it is and you never have to find out about it, getting upset and abusive to anyone who it has happened to is not being constructive in the least.

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

I've had this discussion with various OOC friends for years now and goddamnit, I trust the Immortals as a whole but I am not stupid enough to think that they are infallible or not tempted. You don't think they have their favorite players? People they enjoy roleplaying with? Do you honestly think that gaining the favor and admiration of an Immortal isn't going to have favorable consequences to your account or PC?

They're human and just like we the players have rules of engagement to make the roleplaying experience the best possible for everyone involved, they should (and do) too.
Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.[/i]

[Krath]

:arrow: One Imm approached me through OOC after the death of one of my PCs to give me their OOC contact information.

Maybe they enjoyed your RP and wish to give you information on upcoming availibilities within your clan for good RP.

:arrow: One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

Mistakes happen as you said.

:arrow: I retired a character because one of the people playing in my clan at the time got promoted to Immortal AND was playing a PC in the clan at the time.  There was a history that I tried very hard to avoid IC'ly, I warned the Immortal in charge of the clan about it and this Immortal even spoke to the other Imm/PC person about it but the things continued happening so I retired and got a semi bad mark on my account..

I agree with you here.

:arrow: I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Maybe they were trying to make things interesting, perhaps start a plot within the clan.

:arrow: I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates..

So what, It is not your PC, Do not worry about it. If PC agrees to go with monogamy, then so be it, I do not see how it is your business. I myself stick with Monogamy Ingame, just because it is the way I am. I do not think you should force your beliefs about how arm should be upon other players.

:arrow: I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism...

Once again, So what? So Immortal A allows player B to play five characters in the same clan back to back. If the concept is good Go ahead.  Plus a majority of clan's recruiting are done by PCs. Now if the Immortal gave Special app role after special App Role I would agree without, and only under that circumstance.
...[/quote]

:arrow: I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC....

They are called stalkers, they are in real life and ingame. People will go out of their way to talk to other people they have a physical interest in.  Once again, trying to start plots up.

:arrow: I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan..

I need you to explain this more. Explain how you mean favorites in the clan and do you mean you got blamed ICLY or OOCLY?

:arrow: I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud...

What is your point? So they might have set up a meeting between a PC and their house/clan Leader which is an NPC.




Now, I respect you a lot shaleah, I just do not agree with this. So maybe we can agree to disagree

[ShaLeah]

Maybe they enjoyed your RP and wish to give you information on upcoming availibilities within your clan for good RP.

I can tell you with certainty that that was not the case.

Maybe they were trying to make things interesting, perhaps start a plot within the clan.

They weren't IN my clan and it was a PC, not an NPC. If you want to start a plot, use NPCs. This Immortal also had nothing to do with administrating my clan.

So what, It is not your PC, Do not worry about it. If PC agrees to go with monogamy, then so be it, I do not see how it is your business. I myself stick with Monogamy Ingame, just because it is the way I am.[/i] I do not think you should force your beliefs about how arm should be upon other players.

This is not real life, it's Zalanthas. Monogamy can be practiced, sure, but the fact is that with the richest people having concubines, wives/husbands AND pleasure slaves, the likelyhood that it would be prevalent is slim.  I'm all for Imm interaction but I would rather an Imm play a PC if they wanna play continuously with me than to use NPCs to do so. We shouldn't be playing how we are, we should be playing according to the life people lead on Zalanthas.

Once again, So what? So Immortal A allows player B to play five characters in the same clan back to back. If the concept is good Go ahead.  Plus a majority of clan's recruiting are done by PCs. Now if the Immortal gave Special app role after special App Role I would agree without, and only under that circumstance.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Shows of favoritism are a sign of OOC boundary shading.

They are called stalkers, they are in real life and ingame. People will go out of their way to talk to other people they have a physical interest in.  Once again, trying to start plots up.

When said PC (not NPC) is run by an Immortal who continuously shows the inability to do anything but hate every character of mine despite differences in persona, I reserve the right as a player to OOCly make a decision to ICly avoid contact with that Immortal. Fuck their plots. Give them to someone who isn't going to know that in the end they'll end up hating my character and plotting their death. Once is a coincidence, twice is a rarity, three, four times with the same result? Gimme a break.

What is your point? So they might have set up a meeting between a PC and their house/clan Leader which is an NPC.

My point is that this is a PC, not an NPC. You wouldn't find it disturbing that seconds after logging in the PC of an Immortal Ways you? It could be seen as a coincidence, players playing at the exact same time every day and such. Given the Immortal and the situation though, my personal opinion differs.

Now, I respect you a lot shaleah, I just do not agree with this. So maybe we can agree to disagree

That's cool.  You'll still always be my little Bro

I answered some of your questions and others I didn't, hope you respect that and the fact that some things I will not elaborate on or detail to protect the privacy of others involved.

[Krath]

My only question was with your response to this one:

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.



So just to clarify the same powerful IMM PC did that to more than one of your chars?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have had a violent disagreement with an Immortal before, and so now, I do not like or respect that Immortal OOCly, because I felt like the whole things was just bloody childish. But you know what? I would never take that disagreement IC. I know what it is like to be disliked by an Immortal, and you know what else? It just stands that I do not care. I'm playing a game. I don't care of that Immortal kills me or not, just as long as it is IC, or at least appears to be IC. If it gets outta hand, then yeh, I'll get heated, but I try not to be a conspirisy theorist. I think that the Immortal in question is a proffesional most of the time, and past the event that happened, I have never had another issue with them.

I reinterate. I just don't give a fuck. I'm playing a game that I enjoy, and I won't allow some petty BS and rumors to ruin it for me. I love this motherfucking game.

[ashyom]

I'll just respond to the relevant points.

One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

It happens.  Not every staff knows whether you use or don't use a particular nick in public.

I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Are you sure imms were involved?  I've seen instances where people thought this or that PC was imm, and it wasn't.   Otherwise, can't really comment without knowing more.

I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.

ROFL, I've never heard of this.

I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.

As someone said, PCs do the recruiting.  However, if it seems excessive, we'll step in and tell the recruitee to try playing elsewhere for awhile.

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.

You may not have known all of the circumstances behind this sudden interest.

I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.

So, basically, someone ICly set you up.  A PC told you to do something that, based on lack of info here, was a no no.  Should the "imm PC" not have fallen for it? (Again, assuming it was an imm's pc)

I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

And the rest of the pbase doesn't do that?

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.

If it doesn't bother you, posting on GDB is different from emailing, how?

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

So it's ok for us to play weak chars?  =P  I don't see how this restriction would improve things any.

I want to add that not all of the Staff are in leader roles, in fact, most don't want to be.  We deal with so much responsibility on daily basis, both in game and RL.  The game should be a stress buster.  However, from time to time, some of the staff feels the urge to explore a different, more challenging role.  Some of these roles include playing a noble, psionic, sorcerer, etc.  We don't typically, however, because we don't want to take up slots from players.

In my experience, when a staffer plays one of these roles, they are very conscious about what they do with the character.  I haven't played any of these highly-visible roles as a staffer yet; infact, I think the highest karma role I've played was a krathi and despite that, when faced with a situation that could affect another player negatively, I still agonize over questions like, "Is this IC or OOC feeling I'm having toward this situation?  Should my character not go ahead with this or not, even if it is IC for him/her?"  If
anything, we're overly cautious precisely because of players who will and have throw a fit if they figure out the person behind their demise is an imm and complain and whine and gossip to anyone that'll listen.

So, because of this, staffers have assassins who don't assassinate.  Thieves who don't burgle, sorcerers that don't strike fear in the tiny shriveled hearts of people everywhere...Sucks that we have a conscience, eh?

Anyways, I was at first a little irate with this thread, but now I find humor in it.  Several players brought up good points, and they've been helpful in the Staff's discussions on how to regulate who plays what roles.
-Ashyom

[ShaLeah]

I'll just respond to the relevant points.

One Imm called my character by their real name even though publicly the character was known by another name. Only to VNPCs made by me knew the name and yet the Imm called my char by that name. I figured it was a mistake so I played through it but it was unnerving and a clear use of knowledge they got OOCly.

It happens.  Not every staff knows whether you use or don't use a particular nick in public.

I made a PC that never really said anything except with their boss. They never outwardly expressed any dislike or hatred towards an Imm character that was everything my PC wasn't. My PC was jealous and insecure and had plenty of thinks about the situation though, lots of thinks. Suddenly my boss starts telling me how this PC is saying how much they hate my PC and how the Imm PC was trying to aggressively siddle up to my boss.  Maybe the PC was a mindbender and was seeing my thinks. Maybe it was coincidence.

Are you sure imms were involved?  I've seen instances where people thought this or that PC was imm, and it wasn't.   Otherwise, can't really comment without knowing more.

I've seen Imms use and play NPCs like they were PCs. Mate them with PCs in their clan or temple, have kids with PCs, demand monogamy from their PC mates.

ROFL, I've never heard of this.

I've seen Immortals allow the same players into their clans over and over and over again in a show of what I consider favoritism.

As someone said, PCs do the recruiting.  However, if it seems excessive, we'll step in and tell the recruitee to try playing elsewhere for awhile.

I've had Imm powerful PCs suddenly show an interest on my PC, continued interest despite my PC not ever approaching them or showing any interest at all in their PC.

You may not have known all of the circumstances behind this sudden interest.

I've had an Imm blame something on my PC for in game actions even though my PC was acting on orders from one of the appeared favorites of the clan.

So, basically, someone ICly set you up.  A PC told you to do something that, based on lack of info here, was a no no.  Should the "imm PC" not have fallen for it? (Again, assuming it was an imm's pc)

I've been told an Imm PC Ways a PC within three minutes of this PC logging onto the mud.

And the rest of the pbase doesn't do that?

All of this stuff can be dismissed as lucky coincidence.  They are statements of how I feel things happened. None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.

If it doesn't bother you, posting on GDB is different from emailing, how?

On the whole, I have had by far, many more pleasant experiences with Immortals than I have had bad and I think it's really unfair to make the masses suffer for the sins of a few. No one up there in Immland is Jesus Christ.  So in order to avoid restricting everyone something needs to be done. I still say that if an Imm wants to play a powerful character, then they should be willing to not log on to their Avatar unless it's on Saturday downtime to deal with clan or mud issues. Removing the temptation from the Immortal running that powerful PC is much better than restricting them from playing roles that they would undoubtedly be good at.

So it's ok for us to play weak chars?  =P  I don't see how this restriction would improve things any.

I want to add that not all of the Staff are in leader roles, in fact, most don't want to be.  We deal with so much responsibility on daily basis, both in game and RL.  The game should be a stress buster.  However, from time to time, some of the staff feels the urge to explore a different, more challenging role.  Some of these roles include playing a noble, psionic, sorcerer, etc.  We don't typically, however, because we don't want to take up slots from players.

In my experience, when a staffer plays one of these roles, they are very conscious about what they do with the character.  I haven't played any of these highly-visible roles as a staffer yet; infact, I think the highest karma role I've played was a krathi and despite that, when faced with a situation that could affect another player negatively, I still agonize over questions like, "Is this IC or OOC feeling I'm having toward this situation?  Should my character not go ahead with this or not, even if it is IC for him/her?"  If
anything, we're overly cautious precisely because of players who will and have throw a fit if they figure out the person behind their demise is an imm and complain and whine and gossip to anyone that'll listen.

So, because of this, staffers have assassins who don't assassinate.  Thieves who don't burgle, sorcerers that don't strike fear in the tiny shriveled hearts of people everywhere...Sucks that we have a conscience, eh?

Anyways, I was at first a little irate with this thread, but now I find humor in it.  Several players brought up good points, and they've been helpful in the Staff's discussions on how to regulate who plays what roles.
-Ashyom

Heh.  And people wonder why I posted annonymously. To the person who IMed me yesterday to discuss why I posted annonymously, this is exactly what I was talking about.

1) I do believe that I mentioned that I thought it was a mistake but played through it anyway. The character only told one other person about her real name after the Imm had already used it, just in case the Imm mentioned it to the character by mistake.
2) I am positive that the PC was played by an Imm. I can smell this Imm a mile away.
3) Just cause you haven't seen or heard it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
4) These PCs are playing OOCly rectruited positions or family members. If you rectruit someone to play a family member I can guarantee you that they're going to in turn ask their friends to join them. I've been asked to play roles by friends, I'm sure you have too.
5) I can smell this Imm a mile away and as I said before, it's easy to justify behavior ICly if it's something you wanted to do OOCly.
6) Without going into details, no, my PC wasn't set up and I'm not going to elaborate more.
7) The rest of the player base doesn't have an Immortal character capable of seeing when someone their PC wants to speak to logs on. The rest of the player base can't log off said Imm char and then log their PC character in to do so.

Warning: This is not an "Immortals are eating my brain post" and anyone who thinks that should read the post again and focus on the good.
None of this stuff bothers me anymore to the point where I felt it necessary to email the mud and make an issue out of it. I have my reasons for not emailing the mud and I hope you don't take my sharing this now as some kind of cryptic sign to my disgruntledness.[/i]
I never said it didn't bother me. I said it doesn't bother me anymore to the point where I feel the need to email mud and have something done about it. This was/is a topic of discussion that I have spent a lot of OOC time on in both conversation and thought and obviously others have too since we have five pages within two days. I would like to prevent things like this from happening to other people.
9) Lucky for me and others, some do.

I think this is a useful discussion, and timely, since we've been discussing it on the immortal board recently.  One of the things I've been working on is a set of guidelines for people when running avatars (staff characters).

For what it's worth, I don't think I've seen any deliberate abuses for a long, long time.  I do think that on occasion there are times when people's judgement gets clouded or they rationalize something in a way that they shouldn't, and that's the main reason I'm trying to create those guidelines.

I don't accuse people of questionable behavior without cause. I had and still have my reasons as to why I did not email mud. I brought the thread up because it is a valid concern to the player base it affects.

I believe I am done contributing with this thread.

ShaLeah[/i]
-who is going to watch without participating from now on...