The delicate matter of roleplaying when you're an Immortal

[Anonymous]

A while back a rule change occured forbidding Immortals from playing Templars. I wasn't privy to details and I'm not expecting to be now but the out of character stand of many players was that some Immortals in that position made some in character decisions that seemed a bit shady, as if they were perhaps in character reactions to things they found out through their Immortal characters.

Over time, I've been able to pick up on people's playing styles enough to be able to tell what they play and during conversations with friends outside the mud, I've come to the conclusion that if I ever became an Immortal, I would have to stop playing because it would be very hard for me to be able to separate. I know some Immortals can't and yet I know some Immortals who would do great at these sensitive roles so it seems to me that a clear cut solution to this restriction is not easily obtainable.
I'm of the frame of mind that there are certain things that are acceptible behaviour when you are staff and some that are not. I'll share some of my opinions with you and you can chip in.

Acceptible Immortal Roles

Merchant Family members - Provided it is not within a clan they run.  I feel like I should elaborate on this one. Merchant family members have little to no starting power with anyone except their family. Promotions and power will be gained through merit, through savvy political choices, through hard work and money gained for their respective houses.
Positions obtained through promotion - Starting out as a guard or aide and getting your PC promoted to advisor or lieutenant.
Defilers or Preservers - Again, no magicker of this type is going to be given a nice temple and told by Lord Bedemall to practice their element. Most of these will have to lead secret lives and keep their magicks hidden from the world because they're hunted openly by everyone almost.


Questionable Immortal Roles

Mindbenders - Probably the one guild option that can really be questionable if an Immortal played it if for the simple fact that Immortals can and do watch players and can conveniently find reasons to add a certain player to their in character observations. It would be easy to suddenly start hanging out in one tavern so that a friendship or association can be started. Too iffy in my opinion. It'd be best to not even go there.
Nobles - These characters start off with power. They are immediately above any commoner and depending on the House, above most other nobles too. They start with a military force and can use it at their whim.
Templars - Same as above except they start with all kinds of power over the little person and they have the force of a city worth of militia to back them with even the slightest scuffle.

Unfortunately, there is so much amazing roleplaying talent in the Immortal ranks that such a restriction is cheating the player of a possibly wonderful experience.  
How do we remedy this? How do we make it so that the really good roleplayers who have gotten noticed, been promoted and started adding regularly to the world, can continue to impact the playerbase with their roleplaying talent?  Hard to do, I think. From experience and admittance I can tell you that some Immortals have not been capable of separating their out of character knowledge with the knowledge they've been given in character. In retrospect, I know a few Immortals who would be great at these questionable roles and have no problem just avoiding certain situations or players.

I'd like player and Immortal opinions on the topic. What are the options? Trust that an Immortal won't step over the line and watch them like a hawk? Make them quit? Unfair considering these people are supposed to be trusted. If a player finds out an Immortal is playing a certain role I can imagine suddenly everything the PC does will be scrutinized too.

An inquiring mind would like to know.

[Marauder Moe]

First off... if we can't trust immortals not to abuse OOC knowledge, who -can- we trust?  :shock:

Second, as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

[Larrath]

Trust the freaking immortals.

That's all I'm going to say about this.

[Forest Junkie]

Well. I do trust the staff.

If we cannot trust them, then what does this say about the overlords/highlords who handpicked them for such a great responsibility? No player is perfect, and surely no immortal is as well. But that doesn't mean we can't trust them to do what is best for our community and this game as a whole.

If you have reason to suspect an immortal is cheating, or cannot keep their roleplay with said pc seperate from their status as a staffer, I would suggest mailing the mud.

Other than that, I think I would trust all staff, until given a reason not too.

[Krath]

I hate writing out long notes so I am going to get to the point.  This game is owned by the
Immortals. Everything they do, from setting up RPTs, Running clans, to fixing bugs they
do to heighten the experience of the game for everyone.  In Past times(several years ago),
Yes, there have been Immortals whom have taken possible opportunities because of the reasons
you have listed. However, I would not just the past immortals on the Current ones. Without
getting into too IC info, I have seen and known about Immortals playing in clans I have and
they have worked just as hard as the other PCs in the clan to earn the promotions they
were given.  Ultimately, you may believe that an Immortal playing a PC in the clan could be
a biased issue, but I believe that to be wrong.

When it is all said and done, the Immortal of the clan has to approve all promotions for the
characters in their clan. The only instance in which I would say it would be questionable on a
promotion for an Avatar of an Immortal is if the Avatar(immortals PC) in the clan was run by
that actual Clan's IMM. In other instances where Avatar B joins Immortal A's clan and gets a
promotion, I have enough trust and faith in the staff that it was justified.  

I myself, consider it an Honor and  privledge that an immortal would play in a clan that I am
part of.  They add atmosphere, realism, and make things a lot more fun in the clan.  On top
of that you have a huge learning opportunity and a chance to enhance your emoting and
RP ability.

In summary, It is not something I think you should worry about. Immortals have to
have fun also, and if there is an opening in a clan which they believe they could get a lot of
enjoyment from playing, by all means let them join be it the Templarate of either city or
the Super-Sekret-Defilier Bahamet Union, let them do it. Also, Remember, if you
do find out an immortal is playing a character in your clan, Shut the hell up about it. The last
thing they want is 100 people iming them and emailing them. Let them have their fun and
respect their privacy.

[mansa]

I don't think an Immortal's Avatar should be the most visible and most active noble of a noble house.

[Pantoufle]

How do we make it so that the really good roleplayers who have gotten noticed, been promoted and started adding regularly to the world, can continue to impact the playerbase with their roleplaying talent? Hard to do, I think.

One doesn't have to play a noble or templar, or even a merchant house family member, in order to impact the playerbase with so-called roleplaying "talent".  Indeed, the lowliest beggar, if they know what they're doing, can make an impact upon the game world as a whole.

...as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

I remember when Halaster ran the Allanaki Templars and the Rebellion at the same time.  I bet that turned some heads.  But it's all good, the staff are OOC entities.  Just because you run a clan doesn't mean you have to see the world through their eyes, nor even adopt said clan's belief systems.  You really don't have to be "for" a clan to be running it.  

Fact of the matter is, immortal or not, we all have OOC knowledge we have to pretend not knowing IC.  Go make a character in House Kurac and you will quickly learn their hierarchy.  The longer you remain in the clan, the more likely you are to become privy to their shadier side of business.  Then, when your character dies and you find yourself working in opposition with Kurac in your next incarnation, you had better make damned sure you don't come across as using those previous knowledges IC.

But I have seen some questionable stuff happen where, honestly (and no offense), I had to ask "Was that shit legit or were they just taking advantage of what they know as an imm?"  The trouble is, you'll never know!  If I were on staff, I would make damn sure any plot I am running doesn't even LOOK like an OOC heist, just so I know everyone is confident the game is being ran fairly.  Though by the same token I'm sure there have been countless in game affairs that looked OOCly shady and were actually 100% legit, so...

[Anonymous]

Other than that, I think I would trust all staff, until given a reason not too.

Obviously if there's a rule that they can't play certain roles there was reason for them not to be trusted. Maybe not the persons it affects now, but someone down the line must have either crossed that line or appeared to be less than on the up and up, no? Is removing temptation the only way to deal with this? I don't think so.
I think it's perfectly natural to trust those people you hire against the word of someone else and that in itself can be a delicate matter.

[Carnage]

Second, as long as the cities aren't engaged in war or anything I don't see a problem with an immortal working with a clan in one city while playing a character in the other.

What if the character and the other clan run into trouble, and the immortal's players send them an e-mail saying that they're going to assassinate that character in X manner at Y time?

It's still OOC information that can be used in game and is going to be very difficult to ignore.

[Quirk]

I'm going to have to go with the first poster, here, to some extent. Just because you personally have not heard of or experienced an imm abusing their OOC knowledge in playing their character does not mean it has not happened, or has not happened recently, or will not happen.

I have full confidence that, in time, any persistent abuser of OOC knowledge among the imm staff will be caught and suitably punished. However it will take time to gather enough evidence to nail a rogue immortal whose infringements are not exceedingly blatant - after all, most of us are unaware which PCs belong to imms and which don't, and most of us are reluctant to credit a remarkably savvy PC with OOC knowledge when there are possible IC explanations, so the combination of circumstances required to net even a repeated offender is a fairly rare one. The Overlords cannot be expected to spend their limited time in continually watching imm characters for signs of waywardness, and I don't think they'd claim to be such infallible judges of character that they can guarantee that any imm they appoint will never overstep their authority, or even never grievously overstep their authority.

Safeguards which restrict the amount of harm that can come through OOC knowledge accidentally or purposefully bleeding into the play of immortals' characters are to be welcomed. As the old saw has it: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Ensuring that the potential for such problems is limited is likely to be more effective than trying to repair damage caused by an erring imm.

However, I don't think it should be up to players to set these safeguards, but the Overlords previously mentioned. A balance has to be struck that allows immortals to continue to play interesting characters while shielding the playerbase from the worst consequences of possible abuse, and I don't think the players are qualified to say where that balance lies, from their limited view of the big picture.

Quirk

[Armaddict]

I don't like this thread.  At all.

[Sanvean]

I think this is a useful discussion, and timely, since we've been discussing it on the immortal board recently.  One of the things I've been working on is a set of guidelines for people when running avatars (staff characters).

For what it's worth, I don't think I've seen any deliberate abuses for a long, long time.  I do think that on occasion there are times when people's judgement gets clouded or they rationalize something in a way that they shouldn't, and that's the main reason I'm trying to create those guidelines.

[jhunter]

I haven't  experienced the use of OOC info by an imm "on purpose" as far as I know. But there was one instance where I think an imm used ooc info accidentally (at least I hope so) and I was frustrated by it.

[Anonymous]

A couple of bad, blatant or questionable, experiences can really sour a player. I've had a couple of those and made a choice to not contact the staff because of the tension it would inevitably cause. No one wants to be seen as a trouble maker and clarification can take months or years. It's easier to turn the cheek, walk away and avoid playing with that person again when I spot them. At least for me.

Here's two ideas on how to deal with this:

1) Frequent IC and OOC updates.  I trust that my Immortal isn't going to yell at me for hiring that elf assassin if I tell him in an OOC update because I haven't reported it ICly. What my character reports and what I report should be kept separate.
2) An agreement between Immortals and Overlords detailing that if they are interested in playing a high-power, high-profile character, they will do so exclusively, without any other PCs and only logging in to their Immortal character on Saturday downtimes to work on their clans.  Multiple PCs, which are an Imm job perk, can not only take away from that high profile role, but can lead to information that can cause another played role to be compromised. If you wanna play a big wig, you should concentrate on the big wig only.


If Immortals who wanted to play Templars, Nobles or Mindbenders agreed to those preventative measures, I'd have no problem with their playing those things. Some of the roleplayers up there in Imm land are phenomenal and I honestly think it's a shame that they can't play them... but I've also been on the flip side of someone who shouldn't.

[Xygax]

I'd rather have people with these concerns e-mail the staff so that incidents like this can be investigated.  We take it pretty seriously (as Sanvean mentioned above, there's some discussion about the policies relating to this right now).

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

[marko]

Here are my views on this subject.

Any character that is active when the player is recruited into the staff should be allowed the ability to live out their life naturally.  For example, if someone has a noble and the player then becomes an immortal - that person is given the opportunity to finish up their character or retire.  No pressure.

After that, I do not believe immortals should start up characters that are any sort of family member, templar, karma class over 4, or raider.  The main reason for this is the player reaction to discovering that a character is actually run by an immortal.  Since these particular roles are either important or limited (karama) they will be scrutinized for any possible fault, imagined or real (more often than not imagined).

Players invariably believe that immortals 'cheat' when playing characters of any visibility or responsibility.  No matter how much people deny it, there is always that suspicion that the immortal could be leveraging information across OOC bounds.  

Still, to be fair to new immortals I think they should be allowed to finish up their characters.

[Anonymous]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Any character that is active when the player is recruited into the staff should be allowed the ability to live out their life naturally.  For example, if someone has a noble and the player then becomes an immortal - that person is given the opportunity to finish up their character or retire.  No pressure.

Still, to be fair to new immortals I think they should be allowed to finish up their characters.

I agree 100%.

[Xygax]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Then why bother?

[Forest Junkie]

Fear of backlash from players? Who knows their reasoning. I too prefer for one to show their name. In fact, if there is a topic I feel I cannot post without my name being attributed to it, I shall not post at all.

They must have a reason though, and perhaps may not wish to offend an immortal who thinks they are referring to them specifically.

[Pantoufle]

Then why bother?

I can understand someone's desire for a little anonymity, especially if their login name is their clan name.  If I'm in House Salarr at the time, for example, and I posted under the same name, maybe someone's going to think I've got beef with the Salarr imm by making what is otherwise a completely unrelated post.  Then you have to worry about the potential flood of gossip surrounding your name and so on.  In the end, sometimes it's better to just skip that whole nonsense and post anonymously.  Ain't no thang, really.

And no, I'm not the anonymous poster .

[sarahjc]

My views:

I do not think Immortals should be allowed to play within their own house. I think it causes a lot of conflict and continuing conflict. Hands down this is a no in my book.  

I do not think that Immortals should "recruit" people to their clan. I think they should leave this up to chance.  If you get people you like, you get people like. You will never know what kind of great players are out there, unless you try them on.

I also am pseudo against Imm's having high profile PC's (ie) Merchants, nobles, templars. And not because of abuse, but because of the time factor. Imm's in these roles, unless they are certain that they can take on the role and do a good job, tend to be MIA with the PC a lot, or if they play their PC, neglect the clan a bit. I just think it stalls up the process of getting a player in that spot that could be on more regularly and that can concentrate on the role more. From what I understand Imm work is a time consuming job. Having to play a time consuming role as well would just lead to burn out.

As for High Karma roles, magickers and the what not, I don't see that as an issue at all, most of those type roles are solo type things and don't require as much out of the person as leadership roles. If there is abuse in this role, it will certainly be noticed.

And Xygax, I think that there is a fear factor with people stating abuse asking for events to be investigated. I personally do not mind, amd My imm will tell you, I try to be as open as possible, and occasionally even get a bit snippety. But there are times when things seem a bit fuzzy to me and I as the player need clarification. But by not saying anything or saying it anonymously, you are not helping the problem. The best resolution to conflict is to deal with head on.

If you as the player feel that something isn't on the up and up, talk to  your Imm about it. If you don't resolve it at that level, or feel that the answers you get are, for lack of a better phrase "bull shit". Take it up with the Highlords. Things don't get solved by griping to other players or by anonymous griping.  Because no-one ever thinks the finger is pointed at them.


That's all I have to say about that. And so far, No Karma lost yet.

[Delirium]

Frankly, if I was an immortal, I would want to play a low-responsibility and/or low profile role with my Avatar. It would be a breath of fresh air after all the responsibility and the demands they have to deal with otherwise.

Gossip annoys the bajeezus out of me. I've seen (on other MUDs) what happens when people gossip, and it can be pretty terrible. Not to mention that it's very disrespectful to blather on about which Immortal plays whom because it totally ruins their right to be anonymous and have fun. I've been on the other side of the clouds in another game - and a simple slip of the word from another immortal to a player was all it took - suddenly everyone KNEW I played such-and-such PC - which had the result of completely destroying my fun. It sucked.

[Anonymous]

Incidentally, this is one of those subjects I'd rather not see people post anonymously about, either.  I understand the fear of "retribution", but that is an unfounded fear.  Please don't be afraid to discuss topics like this -as yourself-.

Fear doesn't have anything to do with it.
The Immortals will know who I am with a quick check, that's all that matters.

Then why bother?

Why bother posting annonymously if the people who matter will know who I post anyway? I'll tell ya why, because lately the populace of the GDB seems to be a whole lot less civil than it was before and I think that taking your usual id out of the picture makes people a bit more kind and more apt to entertain someone elses idea. Because doing so avoids the flames of people who flame solely because don't like my GDB nickname.

I chose to be annonymous to the masses knowing full well that the imms that wanna know will know because I wanted to be heard, not flamed.

[Forest Junkie]

I do not think Immortals should be allowed to play within their own house. I think it causes a lot of conflict and continuing conflict. Hands down this is a no in my book.  

I do not think that Immortals should "recruit" people to their clan. I think they should leave this up to chance.  If you get people you like, you get people like. You will never know what kind of great players are out there, unless you try them on.

These are two things that I actually agree with. It can cause more harm than good.

[Armaddict]

And another note.  No immortal playing a PC in the clan that opposes/runs the opposite of the clan they run.

*winces*  And I'll shutup now.