A little more harsh

[WhiteRanger]

You know what really chaps me more than a burgandy leather thong worn backwards in the salt flats? Seeing people ride out into fierce sand storms, and I dont mean a little stinging sand, I mean fierce and terrible biting sand that (if you watched DUNE?) could rip the flesh from your bones supposedly. Maybe Im wrong but I thought the sandstorms of Zalanthas were supposed to be horrendous? So I had an idea. How about when the more terrible storms hit, if you do decide to go out into it instead of hunkering down in some shelter, (Atleast getting down wind from it on the other side of your kank, or laying down and pulling your cloak over your body and face) then you should lose HP for every square that you travel in it. I dont mean like three squares and you are dead, but 3 or 4, maybe even 5 hp per square depending on how bad the storm is. I think this would definantly add to the realism of the game and actually make it more fun, a bit more of the man vs nature theme.

[Cuusardo]

IMHO, people should be seeking shelter rather than going out and trying to travel or hunt during those storms.  I mean, when it says "Terrible, biting sand swirls around you" (or whatever the actual message says) it would be kind of cool to lose a few hps because of how hard you're getting hit by the sand.  You'd lose less if you're wearing heavier armor or a cloak or facewrap...  Something to help protect you.

[WhiteRanger]

Yea, I just thought about that right after I posted. Perhaps all of these cloaks and such that are written up to shelter you more from the elements could actually start to shelter you more from the elements, and not just by giving you more stamina either. I would also think that Rangers would get a bit of a bonus in regards to this, but the reason could be argueable, perhaps they are hardier in regards to standing up to the elements because they are facing them so often, or maybe being more knowledgable in regards to the environment has taught them how best to shield themselves from the storms. But thats an entirely different topic of discussion.

[Delirium]

Terrible, biting sand whips around you.

Sometimes you have no choice but to brave it, and some characters do take the time and effort to equip themselves properly against the storm, but no matter how well equipped, I imagine it would still be unpleasant, yes.. and if given a choice, the vast majority of people would certainly choose to hunker down and avoid the storm. If it whips up while you're in the middle of it though, you have two choices - sit there and try to brave it out.. or try to ride out of it. Guess which option someone already low on water and food will choose. Proper veils, cloaks, clothing, wraps, gloves, etc, etc.. as long as you're not walking around with your hood down and nothing but a loincloth, and taking the effort to prepare yourself against the storm, I don't see it as totally unrealistic.

That said, seeing people just waltz around in storms without paying any attention to the fact that there is horrible, blowing, driving sand surrounding them, annoys the hell out of me, too.

[Anonymous]

I think that if people have their eyes, face and extremities covered that they aren't doing anything unreasonable.

When I think of sandstorms on Arm I always think of ST2: Wrath of Khan when they went to Seti Alpha 5 or wherever and it was a constant sandstorm.  And it didn't strike me as unrealistic that Khan and his people were walking around in it with just cloth and some masks on.

[WhiteRanger]

Yes, I see your point. But the fact is most people do not equip themselves properly in such storms and so many of them are playing unrealistic. And if you have no choice but to brave it, wouldnt it be more interesting to actually have something to brave? The risk of death due to the storm instead of, "Oh no my water is low" w w w w w w w w w w w w w. Ta da the gates? And when I think of the storms I think about more of a Frank Herbert's Dune storm. Rip the flesh right from your bones.

Of course maybe I take this whole harsh planet thing way to seriously, after all, I also want to see the amount of available resources halfed and the price on water tripled.

[Ghost]

My response is a big, fat "No."

I agree harsh storms would tear the very flesh from your skin, but no harsh storm lasts 4+ days.  Whereas it is common to see almost everlasting storms in arm. My outsider has seen a Four-RL-day-straight-blinding-biting storm, and I just had to sit on my ass in the taverns.  Adding a damage to the storms will make it a hell, not harsh.  So if the duration of the storms reduced to 1-2 IC hours, then I agree.  Make it a damaging one, not only you, but also your clothing, armor etc..
But if the duration of the storms are still this long, than it is harsh enough.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A big fat "YES."

[WhiteRanger]

God forbid anyone have to sit in a tavern and wait out a sandstorm on a desert planet. But the solution would be, if the bordom gets to much for you, ride against the wind until you come out of the storm, or die trying. On the other hand I would like to see some characters get antsy in a tavern after about three days, start brawling or the like, after all a bunch of strangers cant spend to long together in the same room before they start to rub someone the wrong way. :twisted:

[Agent_137]

God forbid anyone have to sit in a tavern and wait out a sandstorm on a desert planet.

playability vs realism.

Except, storms that tear the skin from your bones aren't necessarily real . . .

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't understand this phrase completely: Playability vs. Realism.

In that case:

We should never have to worry about a dark night, where we can't see.

Torshs should last forever.

Eatting is annoying.

I should be able to log out where ever I want to.

Why are the cities so far apart?

Nothing should be able to kill me.

I should be able to carry anything I want.

We should have more metal.

I should never starve to death, get poisoned to death, nor dehydrate.

Somebody should not be able to shoot me with a bow and arrow from any distance whatsoever.

I should be able to be a gith.

I should be able to be the Dragon.

I want free housing, and a lock-pick proof lock.

I need 10k sid when I start this game.

Animals should drop sid when they die, and maybe a magick boot or something.

Ginka should live in my basement. Hand it over, S.

Ok, do I need to go further? I really support WhiteRanger on this topic, and feel that it will add to the realism and playability of this game.

[Bug]

Both thumbs up.

Equpping should help, but the idea is great. I was wondering myself why the sand is so harmless. I've lived in a desert and I tell you what, even in the middle of a big city you dont want to be outside when even a minor storm comes.

edit: typo

[creeper386]

The weather system would have to be revamped to allow this to be even slightly playable.

Myself, I think the enviroment itself needs more work before we worry about 'realistic' weather. A more working ecosystem. Something that is between having tons of critters at reboot that just mob people to having a few at the end of the week that are all uber.

When you have storms that are uber severe for RL weeks straight ... The mud wouldn't be playable. You'd have people not able to go anywhere in the cities and find people dead in the city because they tried to go someplace.

Even if not ... If it's that harsh, there is NO way people would survive outside of the cities. No way people would make money outside the city. It wouldn't happen.

Creeper

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sure they would.

[wizturbo]

I think that rarely (keyword RARELY) some sandstorms should reach the "Vicious" level where they actually dish out damage for every movement square you take.  The storms shouldn't be coded to last very long, but there should be a potential danger of Terrible sandstorms abruptly changing into vicious ones, to act as a deteriant for travelling under Terrible conditions.

[Armaddict]

I'd like to see storms have -some- sort of affect.  But moreso outside the gates.

I don't think you should see a desert-elf who's unprepared for the storm.  It's part of the reason desert-elves are hardcore.  They live in that stuff all the time, and most people can't tolerate it.

I've no objections to making it harsher.

[Callisto]

No.

[Galdun]

Awesome Idea.  How few people EVER use shelters, or fires or any of those neat wilderness survival items.  I'm all for it.  I'd even like to see really cold nights where you lose HP every tick that you're not beside a fire or in shelter.  Sandstorms that smuther or tear at the flesh would just be incredibly cool.

[sjanimal]

That was hyperbole, Venomz, which is ironic because hyperbole is not generally admissable in debates, and you claim that debate is the key to mental agility.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand this phrase completely: Playability vs. Realism.

I always say Playability > Realism.  Simple as that.  When questioning whether or not something is good for the game realism has to take a back seat to playability.  This doesn't mean realism isn't important, just not more important than playability.

Otherwise healing should take IC months, exhaustion should set in well before going 20 outdoor rooms, the crim code should be greatly relaxed and Allanak and Tuluk should be buried in sand.

Realism is cool, realism is the basis for the challenges that this game presents but you have to keep in mind that it is still a game.

[Armaddict]

Right.  But just how -un-playable does making storms do -something- negative make it?

I mean, right now, people just spam directions through it, because all it does is make it so you can't see the room.  You can still walk right through it.  Hell, why not just hold a parasol and take a lively gander through the storm?

I don't think this takes away too much playability.  I think it will enrich the environment of Zalanthas, and put some actual role-play into how people react to the weather.

[Agent_137]

playability vs realism was the issue, i wasn't making a comment on if storms should hurt you or not.

[Armaddict]

...Uhm, my post was asking how playability came over realism in this situation.  Changing storms to have a negative affect does -not- make things unplayable in the least.

[Forest Junkie]

...Uhm, my post was asking how playability came over realism in this situation.  Changing storms to have a negative affect does -not- make things unplayable in the least.

As one whom has played desert elves in the past, I think this would be a welcome addition. Harsh? Yes. Kickass to play in? Oh yeah.

[Mr.Camel]

I'd love to see this, when a vicious storm doesn't last four RL days. I'm all for harsh storms, but harsh storms aren't infinite.

[Forest Junkie]

I'd love to see this, when a vicious storm doesn't last four RL days. I'm all for harsh storms, but harsh storms aren't infinite.

I agree.

[Larrath]

Big yes for the brief but deadly sandstorms.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That was hyperbole, Venomz, which is ironic because hyperbole is not generally admissable in debates, and you claim that debate is the key to mental agility.

It was hyperbole, but to me, playability versus realism seems to be used in such hyper-bolic ways so many times.

And yes, I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist doing it.

[Forest Junkie]

Don't worry 7DV, I thought it was funny. But I'm goofy.  :?

[Kalden]

It was hyperbole, but to me, playability versus realism seems to be used in such hyper-bolic ways so many times.

Not so sure I understand that statement, but saying Armageddon is realistic seems like a hyperbole to me.

We should never have to worry about a dark night, where we can't see.

Human eyes should adjust to darkness. A realistic feature that hasn't been covered in many MUDs.

Torshs should last forever.

On the subject of torches... they should require a flint, and be very difficult to light in a "pitch black" room.

Eatting is annoying.

Virtually, everyone should be eating and drinking a whole hell of a lot more. Since that can't be played out, it should be extracted from their coin during login-ins. Virtual paychecks should be handed out based on professions.

I should be able to log out where ever I want to.

Realistically, I should be able to set up camp wherever I want, assuming I have the supplies. I can survive as long as I stay logged in indefinitely - why can't that apply virtually?

Somebody should not be able to shoot me with a bow and arrow from any distance whatsoever.

Somebody should not be able to shoot me with a bow and arrow from 3 miles away. Or is it 15 miles? I keep forgetting.

I want free housing, and a lock-pick proof lock.

I want to bar my door with a heavy wooden board. Pick that. :roll:

I also want to squat in a slummy house, because my warrior can rip apart whoever "lives" in it.

[sarcasm]Oh, and biting storms should rip the skin right off your bones, because that's super-realistic. They're actually tornadoes, only fiercer.[/sarcasm]

[Bug]

Kalden, i suggest you go to southern Israel, and live with the Beduins for a couple months. Preferrably in the summer.

Then we'll speak.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I actually like the idea of the storms being more harsh.

But I also agree that if it is implemented, that the storms -rarely- ever last as long as they currently do.

It would make being an independent hunter/forager/travelling merchant/ect... near impossible,  as she would starve to death waiting for a chance to go make some coin.

[Kalden]

Add some heavier move penalties, more stamina per room, and, if possible, a little HP damage if there's no face/eye protection, and it would be fine. That would probably be difficult to code, though.

What's the miles per hour of the wind we're looking at? I've been in 50-90 mph windy rainstorms before, and my skin was left intact. Didn't even get lifted up into the air.

Here's an interesting, perhaps extreme example of a sandstorm on the modern Earth: http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000546-17.html

[Angela Christine]

I'd like to see storms have -some- sort of affect.  But moreso outside the gates.

I don't think you should see a desert-elf who's unprepared for the storm.  It's part of the reason desert-elves are hardcore.  They live in that stuff all the time, and most people can't tolerate it.

I've no objections to making it harsher.

Agreed.  It would have to be well thought out though.

* Inside the cities the effect should be negligable, that is the  point 60+ foot high walls in Allanak, the walls and tarps surrounding Red Storm, and the walls around nearly every settlement in the known world.  Either no effect in the city, or a 1hp + 1sp cost per room.

* Outside the cities the effect should be light.  The goal isn't to make it impossible to travel, because some players have limited gaming time and need to get from A to B durring certain short windows.

* The length of dammaging storms should be strictly limited.  For example, every tick (Arm has ticks in there somewhere like other DIKU muds, right?) there is a 1% chance of a terrible storm mutating into a deadly storm. (In particularily nasty locations, like the Red Desert, it might be a 2% chance).  Each deadly storm would be pre-set to last 1-20 minutes.  However, as soon as it ends the 1% chance of another one starting would kick in.  This would give people caught outside the option of  hunkering down next to their kank (or in a tent if they brought one) and waiting out the storm, and then running for cover as soon as the storm lets up enough to make it safe to travel.  

* If possible, NPCs should hunker down durring a deadly storm and take storm dammage.  Hunters should stop hunting, other NPCs stop wandering, and so on.  I've seen some NPCs use the Rest command, perhaps most NPCs would realistically rest durring deadly storms, making themselves a smaller target.  Archery should be impossible for both PCs and NPCs durring a deadly storm.  Obviously NPCs in combat would keep fighting.

* Mounts and wagons may become more balky durring deadly storms, so it will take greater skill to keep them moving.  Even a tough old kank doesn't like moving through a deadly storm.

* Appropriate cloathing should help.  Considering the cloathing that the Blackwing are known for, appropriate clothing might not always be obvious.


I would suggest both hp and sp dammage each step, there are already some terrains that do this.  Stamina dammage means that even if you are riding you get tired, because fighting your way through a storm is tiring even if you are mounted.  Each step in a deadly storm would do 1-5 points of health and stamina damage (stamina damage is in addition to the normal stamina cost of moving through the room).  

Storm armor would reduce the dammage.  Having a particularily tough hide (like a mekillot, braxat, gith or some dwarves) would give you 1 point of resistance against storm dammage.  Possibly desert elves and tribal humans as well, because they are aclimatized to the weather.  So if the storm would normally have done 3 points of dammage, it would only do 2.  Some classes might also get a point of innate storm resistance: whirans for the afinity with wind, rukkians for their affinity with sand, and possibly rangers for their aquired familiarity with dealing with nasty weather.  So a whiran dwarf and a delf ranger might both have an innate storm resistance of 2.


Some gear would also provide storm resistance.  Each item would either provide exactly 1 point of storm resistance, or none at all.  This is too keep everyone from suddenly wearing the same cloak all the time because it happens to provide 3 points of storm resistance while most cloaks provide 1 or 2, either the cloak helps or it doesn't.  Period.  Storm resistance would be decided independantly of other bonuses or penalties.  A heavy leather cloak might provide storm resistance despite the fact that it also gives a -5 penalty to stamina.  Cloaks would be the main thing providing storm resistance, and the vast majority of cloaks would in fact provide storm resistance.  Many facewraps and veils would provide a point of storm resistance.  Most abas would provide storm resistance, even if they are worn on the torso location, with a cloak over them.  Some boots, shirts, gloves and other items would provide storm resistance.  Single layered sandcloth usually would not provide storm resistance because it is too light to stop sharp, flying sand, but multilayered sandcloth items usually would.  Items with wrapped cuffs, designed to keep out sand, would also be likely to provide storm resistance.  Funky Blackwing items would usually add storm resistance, even if they don't meet the other criteria, to encourage people to actually dress in their "traditional" tribal dress.  New-looking, fancy items wouldn't be more likely to provide storm resistance that crappy looking, broken-in used items.  Much of the stuff sold in places like Red Storm would provide storm resistance, even if it looks crappy and provides no other bonuses.  Both armor and clothing items would be eligable for the storm resistance flag.  Yes, the downside to this is that the Storm Resistance flag would have to be added manually to hundreds, possibly thousands, of items in the database.

Now a keen shopper might end up with a storm resistance score higher than 5, right?  The catch here is that no matter what your storm resistance score is (and obviously this would be a hidden score anyway) storms always have at least a 50% chance of doing the basic 1/1 dammage.  If you are wearing anything less than a wagon, deadly storms will still be dangerous to travel in.


Just a thought.

AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

* The length of dammaging storms should be strictly limited.  For example, every tick (Arm has ticks in there somewhere like other DIKU muds, right?) there is a 1% chance of a terrible storm mutating into a deadly storm. (In particularily nasty locations, like the Red Desert, it might be a 2% chance).  Each deadly storm would be pre-set to last 1-20 minutes.  However, as soon as it ends the 1% chance of another one starting would kick in.  This would give people caught outside the option of  hunkering down next to their kank (or in a tent if they brought one) and waiting out the storm, and then running for cover as soon as the storm lets up enough to make it safe to travel.

Exceptional thought was put into this, AC. But I will tell you now that if it runs a chance of happening every tick, there will be a LOT of those severe storms. Since Xygax has apparently perfected the time scheme and synchronization, I suggest finding a different trigger for the storms other than ticks.

In addition to this, all classes and races familiar with the desert should be proficent in a skill called shelter-crafting. A scrab-shell, for instance, could be made into a shelter. Some branchs could be lashed together. The classes might include nomad, ranger, and the races halfling and d-elf. Then again, maybe not. *shrug*

[Pantoufle]

I don't know if implementing damage caused by sandstorms will really add much to the game.  As it is, I often find sandstorms to be somewhat of an OOC punishment, especially when they seem to go on forever (at least until the next reboot).  

You're going to find people who will roleplay appropriately and people who won't.  You can't force everything.  I think it's enough that we have a constant reminder that the storm is terrible and blinding and biting and stinging every single room we enter.  I think the people who blatantly disregard these prompts are either a newbie (and if so, cut them some slack, dude) or they're just not as "upstanding of a citizen" as you would like them to be (and if that's the case, well, go taddle on them to the staff if it really bothers you or if you think the "twinks" are coming in droves).  

So what per cent of players out there are ignoring the would-be effects of a sandstorm?  And is that number high enough to demand the harshness of sandstorms to elevate?  As it is you're already blinded, unable to see further than one room away.  Your entire equipment list becomes spammed with that god awful dust flag.  The second the sun sets you're screwed.  Are you absolutely certain adding a health drain (or anything else) will sate your appetite for "harshness"?  Do you think it will remedy the problem of some players ignoring sandstorms?  And even if it does, will it also in turn deter more newbies form the game.

There is an inredibly fine line between IC harshness and OOC nuisance.  I find most people who say the game has allegedly lost its harshness are simply no longer newbies who know a thing or two.  That's not a bad thing.  Trust me, you throw any newbie into this game who wants to learn to play a rugged, wilderness survivor and they will be hard pressed to learn the ropes the first five times around.  Is that not harsh enough?  I've played this game long enough, myself, that I could probably tell you how to play a 'Rinther or hunter indefinately (and have fun along the way), but I still can't account for any number of variables that can lead to instant death.  The game is huge.  There are rooms out there that will kill you the instant you walk in (whether you are a 0-day merchant, a 60-day warrior, or a "maxxed" defiler).  And sometimes there isn't even a warning in the room before.  Trial and error.  Error means death.  Perhaps you know the grasslands like the back of your hand but there was always that one cliff you never climbed over to see what's on the other side.  Then one day you brave it up to find out and ... byebye.  There goes your character.

I'm always leery about implementing added dangers.  It's easy to think the game isn't dangerous when you've been around the block, but don't be fooled.  Even the learned can get diced real fast.  I don't think the "harshness" has gone anywhere.  And I don't think increasing the pain of sandstorms will be the solution to anything.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You are possibly correct. But personally, it's not for some twink or anything ... it's for -me-. I wanna get hurt in a sandstorm. I want encouragement to not be out in the stinging sands. I wanna stare at the screen in a morbid manner, cursing the luck.

It's for me, and not anyone else.

[WhiteRanger]

Ok people, I added a pole, vote for it. I personally am for having gimpka rats as magical beasts...but heh....thats just the Ranger in me.

[Pantoufle]

You are possibly correct. But personally, it's not for some twink or anything ... it's for -me-. I wanna get hurt in a sandstorm. I want encouragement to not be out in the stinging sands. I wanna stare at the screen in a morbid manner, cursing the luck.

It's for me, and not anyone else.

What's stopping you from roleplaying that out already?  Do you really have to have the code slice off a few health each time you step through a room where there is a sandstorm in order to immerse yourself in the experience?  And I'm not being rude or anything, man, I'm just saying .. straight up .. do you really need the code to do that for you?

Sometimes I find when the code enforces realism, it does it in such a way that doesn't always make sense in every sceneario and as such, I would rather make the decision myself.  Does my character get scratched and bruised by the abrasive sands, or has (s)he taken enough precautions to avoid this?  The code is almost always one sided and never considers multiple possibilities.

For more advanced players who know the ropes of survival and wish to receive an added difficulty level, I would suggest requesting for your character to receive the blood loss code.  Ever hear of it?  I guess it's used for "twinks" (god I hate that word), and if your health drops below a certain level you begin to suffer some drastic side effects that seriously hinder your ability to do much of anything but tend to your wounds.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't need the code to do it, I want to code to do it. I want the code to tell me that it is dangerous out here. You have a point about the code not thinking about everything, but I think that we have talked about it enough that if it ever were coded, it would look into many different senarios.

[Sephiroto]

This whole thing seems to be over the debate of players' abilities to roleplay the situation correctly.  I agree with some sort of penalty to travel in sandstorms and I propose much more lethal results.  There are penalties for being hit, for moving, for hunger, and  for thirst.  I don't think that we should be left to decide everything.  I myself have braved sandstorms before, but with harsher coded penalties I wouldn't have.  And the same for many others.

This is a clip of a little violent wind.  While not a massive sandstorm by any means it represents to me elements which are probally common within sandstorms themselves.
http://vid3.stileproject.com/a6c1f1ce5ea9575047cc5de9914311b8/vanish12.wmv  Watch the reaction of those inside the winds.  I personally think that people shouldn't be going anywhere in sandstorms, and if they do, they should be penalized via stamina, hp, temporary blindness, or by some sort of unseen creature waiting to eat helpless morons venturing out or trapped in the storms.

On the other hand, I think that the sandstorms should be more like the storms coded around Red Strom.  I think that they should be more frequent, bur shorter in duration.  Ones that blow up suddenly and subside just as quickly.

*Edited for link.  Damn stileproject.  If it works then its a duststorm video.  If not, then its another porn site like before.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Being curious, did you just paste the wrong link? But thanks for the intent. *grin*

[My 2 sids]

Although I can see how neat it would be to keep with very harsh storms, I'm still thinking playablity should come first.  Hunters and travelers only have so many hours to play on line too... it's not fair if the whole time is spent waiting out a storm.   One solution that may :idea:  work though would be to make the storms harsh, but only last one IC day or so.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think we all agree (those of us that agree that we need to make sandstorms do something, at least) that barring staff imposed magickal sandstorms, the violent ones should be reduced drasticly in length, yet increased drastically in reprecutions.

[spawnloser]

Personally, I want to see storms shortened in duraction as well...but I want to see those storms that show up be more realistic, for me and everyone else.  I'm not saying this to punish the twinks or force people to roleplay correctly.  I just want it for the fact that the mud was touted to me as the harshest thing out there...I've had characters die faster on worse muds.  The only problem here is waiting for a new character instead of repopping in town.  Make storms do something. Imagine the debate on how to get away from The Big Nasty (tm) that is chasing you when you're in a storm?  Do you risk the storm or Mr Nasty?  Oh, it'll be beautiful.

[Cenghiz]

Err... It's really great what it's argued to make storms become more realistic.. But...
I'm working at the moment.. This means I only have one or two hours of playing time for every day, even less most of the time. What if I wanted to play a ranger?

10:00pm.. Logging in.. A terrible sandstorm.. You grumble "Damn." And log out.
10:20pm.. Logging in again.. Still the storm's keeping on. You don't want to die eh? Log out..
......
11:50pm.. You yawn as you check for one last time, then you log out to sleep.

Of course it's better if it's more realistic, but some people can't afford staying in city.. Time for Whira's Anger will come again. Please let people who have time to afford waiting in city RP it, so we, people with less playing time can afford playing rangers, blindly getting back to cities to RP a little. (Yes I DO play unrealistically and run back to city with my ranger in storms if I log into that storm. It's the only way I could find out.)

[X-D]

Does it say anywhere in the docs what speeds Zalanthan winds get to?

I can't say as any of you can make any informed debate on sandstorms being deadly or even hurtful without such information.

See, though I've never been in like the sahara during high winds or anything, "blinding" sand and dust storms do exist here in the states in winds as low as 30mph, Not a speed that is a danger to a clothed human  in any way, though you can't see more then ten feet. I've been in them in oaklahoma and arkansas. I've also been on a beach (lake erie and lake michigan) during 60mph sustained and 80mph gusts, the sand STINGS, but it was not removing flesh, and a simple pair of jeans and a leather coat stopped even any sting on covered areas, biggest proble was the wind itself..well, and the occasional bit of larger junk flying around. So, I think it would take sustained winds over 100mph to be a danger, but then, you would not be moving against it anyway, so I don't think zalanthan winds reach that level. Personaly, I think the "terrible blinding sandstorms" Probobly have winds in the 40-50mph range. So, I had to vote Gimpka rats should be magickal.

[Anonymous]

Does it say anywhere in the docs what speeds Zalanthan winds get to?

I swear Halaster or someone once did a broadcast years ago during a really bad one telling everyone the winds were in the 90mph range, but I could have just been sleeping.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We will find out shortly. I have posed that question in the Staff section.

[X-D]

Well, searched, nothing in the docs on actual speed, so, 40mph seems right, and not a danger, least not from the sand.

ALTHOUGH....What I would find interesting is "random flying objects" In the highest grade storms. Bugs, (you know, gimpka sized), branches, plants, barrel cactus, things that if striking an unprotected part of a person could cause some minor damage, maybe even some large enough to knock you off your mount (ride check of course). Just have script roll a check for every 60rl seconds somebody is in a storm, say 5-10% chance of something striking them, normal armor saves and other protections apply.

[Anonymous]

Well, searched, nothing in the docs on actual speed, so, 40mph seems right, and not a danger, least not from the sand.

I don't follow your logic.  You didn't find an answer so your arbitrarily decided windspeed sounds right?  Why not just wait to see if the staff chimes in?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've also been on a beach (lake erie and lake michigan) during 60mph sustained and 80mph gusts, the sand STINGS,

I might also note that the message 'stinging sands' is the lowest level of sandstorm in the game atm. If this follows your logic, then apparently the next two levels of storm are running into the 140-150 range? Just curious.

[Bedhead]

Weather

The two weather concerns of Zalanthans are the wind and the blowing sand which the wind drives. The wind can sometimes reach up to ninety miles per hour...

I found that in the docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/misc.html

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Gracias, Bedhead. Tu esta un bueno Amigo.

[Angela Christine]

But I will tell you now that if it runs a chance of happening every tick, there will be a LOT of those severe storms. Since Xygax has apparently perfected the time scheme and synchronization, I suggest finding a different trigger for the storms other than ticks.

1% per minute then, that would mean that on average a terrible storm would briefly mutate into a deadly storm roughly every two hours that the terrible storm continues.  This was just a rough outline off the top of my head.

In addition to this, all classes and races familiar with the desert should be proficent in a skill called shelter-crafting. A scrab-shell, for instance, could be made into a shelter. Some branchs could be lashed together. The classes might include nomad, ranger, and the races halfling and d-elf. Then again, maybe not. *shrug*

If you only took dammage while moving, then this wouldn't really be necessary.  You can just sit still and emote ducking under your cloak and putting your kank or a handy outcropping of rock between you and the worst of the wind.  Or you can carry a tent, a tent not only protects you but also lets you regenerate.

Of course to be totally realistic you should suffer from the storm whether you are moving or not, but I think damage from storms while standing still would hurt playability too much.

The idea isn't to kill PCs, but more to make the desert itself the most dangerous thing out there.  I think the higher water consumption rates was a step in the right direction. I also approve of the kank-trapping pits in some areas, despite the fact that my kanks keep dropping into them.  :x  I like changes that make paying attention and knowing the ways of land at least as important to survival in the desert as being able to solo a gith.  :roll:  

With my example proposal, most PCs should easily be able to aquire enough storm resistance that they would only be taking 1 point of damage, which most of the time would not be a major hinderance to a healthy chracter.  If you are injured, poisoned *and* caught in a deadly storm you are having a very bad day indeed, but a healthy desert-wise character can usually ride out of a terrible storm (and therefore out of the deadly storms spawned by the terrible storm) in well under 50 rooms.  Or simply sit still for the 1-20 minutes it would take for the deadly storm to burn itself out.



As a side effect, this could create another spell for certain magickers.  Durring terrible storms  mages skilled in controling winds and storms might be able to invoke a deadly storm.  Useful if you are trying to get a party of witchhunters off your tail, or just to bedevil you enemies.  Naturally, there would also be the possibility for certain mages to use magick to end a deadly storm prematurely, or use spells to protect their companions from the effects of the storm.  A Storm Shield spell when you need one might make it worth while to keep an elementalist on the payroll.



Another side effect of deadly storms could be that such severe winds and blowing sands eliminate tracks, or cause them to deteriorate twice as fast as normal.  A desperate man might deliberately ride into a deadly storm to shake off the raiders, slavers, or lawmen that are chasing him.


AC

[WhiteRanger]

AC YOUR A GENIOUS. I dont claim to know a damn thing about real life sandstorms, but what I do know is when I am trecking the supposedly most severe environment known to man, I want a little something more slamming me in the face than what some Joe Shcmoe saw at the beach one time. It goes to the point of me not only wanting to loose hp in the storm, but I want a 15% to 20% chance that I get blown in the wrong direction, and then another 30% chance that I stumble and fall on my face. I want three times the stamina deduction there currently is. This isnt because I think "I R UBER RANGER DESERT GOD" its because the next time I see some pc like "the pale skinned youth" walk out into a blinding sandstorm and treck from Tuluk to Luirs on foot, I WANT THE LITTLE BASTARD TO DIE! It might be because I am one sadistic desk jockey, or maybe I just like to play things realistically, and if Im going to....THEN BY KRATH SO ARE YOU! *points at would be twink*  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

[Mr.Camel]

I think the danger of a sandstorm is in its ability to bar vision,  rather than hurting by itself. As much stinging as sand flying in 90mph can do, I think it can be reduced quite significantly with the right clothes. Someone crossing a vicious storm should worry about getting lost, losing resources and hurting themselves, not from the stinging sands, but from the chance that they would fall and hurt themselves on say, a rock.

And all this about 'Peeling the skin off your bones', I don't buy that. True, Zalanthas's sandstorms may just do that to any of us. Zalanthan inhabitants would have stronger flesh than someone sitting most of their day before a computer screen with the comfortably cool AC above their heads.

A sandstorm's harshness isn't in physical pain, and even if it was, two layers of sandcloth would be enough to nullify any pain on the parts they cover, or maybe one.

[X-D]

X-D wrote:
I've also been on a beach (lake erie and lake michigan) during 60mph sustained and 80mph gusts, the sand STINGS,

I might also note that the message 'stinging sands' is the lowest level of sandstorm in the game atm. If this follows your logic, then apparently the next two levels of storm are running into the 140-150 range? Just curious.

I'll explain then.

First, I'd like to point out that I've also heard of the earth sandstorms that can strip flesh, but that seems to be only in the "It's said" catagory, as I've not been able to find any sort of proof.

Alright, on to this, I never once said that it was based in in game message 7DV, and notice that mine is in caps, at 20mph blowing sand stings, at 50-80mph it STINGS, almost hurts and -maybe- if you were naked in it you would take damage. Now, 140mph plus? Dude, thats sorta silly, 140mph winds pick up houses, you CANNOT walk around in it, it rips trees up and just does overall amazing things, NOTHING in game reflects such winds, so, I'd not entertain the thought.

But lets go with the game descs, whats the top one, terrible biting or is it terrible blinding...throw some dust in with that sand I was getting hit with and I definitly would have called it either, have you ever tried to keep your eyes open in wind blown sand? Or even a high wind for that matter?

Now, to the doc that states "sometimes reaching 90mph" I take that as gusts not sustained, so, a top storm would run around 60mph with 90mph gusts, NOT something that is going to do damage to a protected person.

Personaly I think the current way in which the game handles storms is accurate, Hard to see, hard to rest, thirsty faster etc. Everybody wears large cloaks made for zalanthan weather, check out the sandcloth desc sometime, and are well protected from possible bone stripping.

It is plenty realistic now and still playable, doing more would actually take it into the realms of unrealistic IMO.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wasn't really telling you that you were wrong, I was interested in what you were saying. I also thought that sandstorms going 140 was a tad extreme. S'pretty much why I asled at all.

Additionally, I don't think that folks wearing desert gear should have skin stripped from their bodies. But I do think someone near naked or someone who is not wearing desert gear should experience this. That means that there will be no more silk-wearing in the desert, to which I say, Amen.

I also think that for any person whatsoever there should be some sorta cost for running around in a fucking sandstorm. Reduce movement, take HP, shred clothing after a while. I don't care what it is, do something to them!

[X-D]

Additionally, I don't think that folks wearing desert gear should have skin stripped from their bodies. But I do think someone near naked or someone who is not wearing desert gear should experience this. That means that there will be no more silk-wearing in the desert, to which I say, Amen.

Heh, no arguement there.

I also think that for any person whatsoever there should be some sorta cost for running around in a fucking sandstorm. Reduce movement, take HP, shred clothing after a while. I don't care what it is, do something to them!

Shrug, I don't think it should be everybody, preperation should be worth something along with experiance and such, IE nomads/rangers/d-elves and probobly any of the tribals human or not should not be affected as long as properly outfitted (at least not affected more then they already are). Mostly because of the HUGE playability issue for them, I mean its tough enough playing ISO without being code forced to spend a RL week in a hut. Not to mention they would have even better storm clothing then city folk.

[Armaddict]

Alright, here's my take.

We aren't talking skin scraping off bones, here.  We're talking a -lot- of sand being hurled -directly- against you.  If flesh is exposed, it's going to start hurting like a motherfucker.  Exposure to it for long periods of time -will- leave a burning sort of feeling as well as cause minor skin damage.  I'm not wanting the average storm to kill people.  Just make them think a little about whether they should wait out the storm, or continue, because it's a pain in the ass.

However, there should be another kind of storm, particularly around Red Storm.  Ever seen the movie 'White Squall'?  It would be that equivalent, for a desert world.  Comes out of nowhere, a wall of sand that just overtakes those in front of it.  Winds are extremely high, sand volumes are extremely high, and the biggest danger is that you -have- to move, or you'll be buried.  But moving isn't exactly safe either.  The beauty of this storm?  It's very short in duration.

Yeah.  You can approve or disapprove, and expand on that.  That would be kickass, though.

Edited to add:  Yeah, forgot to say.  The idea, was that I'd actually like to see -stun- be damaged.  Passing out in a storm is bad, because it results in sand covering you, and if you stay out long enough, and the storm is severe enough, you will be buried.  THAT is the deadly part.  None of this skin searing bone scraping sands junk.

[Incognito]

If there's a raging sandstorm, chances are ICLY people should stay indoors or run helter skelter in search of shelter (heh i liked that one).

But do realise that there are players who might have limited playing time. Its one of the reasons folks sometimes do things which seem twinkish or non-realistic in terms of the world, but the bottom line is, it is a game, and folks do have a RL.

When I see someone do something unrealistic, ICLY I try and imagine what would prompt someone to do such an action and come up with something acceptable, to convince myself. For example, a troop of Bynners riding out in a fierce storm - could be heading out to save someone who might be getting attacked.

I'd say - take such incidents with a pinch of salt and you'll be fine.

Incognito

[Bedhead]

I found this page while googling for sand storms.  

http://www.nrzam.org.uk/PaddyFleming/SandStorm.htm

It's an interesting first hand account of big sandstorms in the Sahara.

[Armaddict]

You know, I tried to use that exact same excuse before.  If there's a storm, they can't leave the city.  Plenty they can do within the city.  They start suffering from not being able to hunt because of all the storms lately?  Why can't that be happening?  Bad weather would be stopping a -lot- of hunters, and it's a legitimate thing that would be happening IC'ly.

I -do- see too many hunters who go out in the middle of a fierce storm just because they can still see the room they're in, though.  I can see this in -dire- circumstances, but why do it otherwise?  Seems kinda wrong to me.  And I'm guilty of it as well, because, quite simply, there's never been a -real- penalty for it besides visibility.

This doesn't take away playability, really, it doesn't.  It's just the way things would be on Zalanthas.  So play Zalanthas.

[Lazloth]

Probobly have winds in the 40-50mph range. So, I had to vote Gimpka rats should be magickal.

I voted the same way, but I think you're overdoing it.
The sort of environmental responses we enjoy on Zalanthas probably puts our vicious storms' wind ~25mph in locations where folks can get to.

[Lazloth]

Incidentally, after wasting the prerequisite minutes researching, there is no "skin stripping" that occurs during sand/dust storms that I can find.  You may get your lungs filled with silt and die, but you won't be a skeleton unless you're standing there for a long, long, long time.

HP damage, hence, bzzt.

[X-D]

I -do- see too many hunters who go out in the middle of a fierce storm just because they can still see the room they're in, though. I can see this in -dire- circumstances, but why do it otherwise? Seems kinda wrong to me. And I'm guilty of it as well, because, quite simply, there's never been a -real- penalty for it besides visibility.

Really...hhhhhmmmm, do they STAY in the storm?

A good hunter knows the weather as well as the land, will know where the blowing sands are lower, even says in the docs how to do so. Heading out, braving the sands for an hour to get to cleaer hunting grounds sounds pretty realistic to me.

One other thing, I think that 90% of the people posting on the subject are thinking like an earth human.

Try and remember, ALL the races and species have had THOUSANDS of years to adapt to the conditions they live in, the people have been around it their whole lives, hell, look at some places in game where blowing sand NEVER stops, somebody raised in redstorm thinks "stinging sand" is sunbathing weather. And thats just humans, many of the other races are far tougher then humans.

But same as a northerner moving south IRL or the other way around, I'm from detroit and each winter here in KS I laugh at these people wearing enough clothes to live in the antartic complaining about it being 20 degrees, me, I'm in a leather motercycle coat, boots and jeans.

[Angela Christine]

On the subject of torches... they should require a flint, and be very difficult to light in a "pitch black" room.

Glow crystals for everyone!


AC

[X-D]

I think irrig beatles should be foragable at night and lamps craftable by anyone who has the beetles and a -glass- container with a lid big enough to hold a couple.

That or smear them on yourself like kids do with lightning bugs.

[Jacques]

I think irrig beatles should be foragable at night and lamps craftable by anyone who has the beetles and a -glass- container with a lid big enough to hold a couple.

That or smear them on yourself like kids do with lightning bugs.

This opens whole new fashion ideas...

The foppish, carefree noble has arrived from the west, adjusting his green-glowing codpiece.

[Armaddict]

X-D:

I think the evolution of the zalanthan being doesn't make them resistant to dangers on Zalanthas.  I think it's the same evolution that took place between homo sapiens sapiens of earth...i.e. not physical, so much, but mental.  I think they learned to stay the hell out of a storm, and learn to avoid them, as well.

[spawnloser]

I think irrig beatles should be foragable at night and lamps craftable by anyone who has the beetles and a -glass- container with a lid big enough to hold a couple.

That or smear them on yourself like kids do with lightning bugs.

I don't think so...in fact, I can say with some good amount of assuredness that this will not be the case.  Some people know why...some people may suspect why.  I won't say why, however, but be sure that there is a good reason.

[X-D]

First, Spawnloser, the irrig post was a joke, more derailment then anything.

Armaddict, Really? So, your saying humans have not adapted physicly to the environments they live in? You may want to do some research on that one. The differences in the "races" of this planet are -directly- related to environment, and ours are pretty mild.

Not to mention the body itself can adapt, Did you know, that if you were dropped onto everest (and not even the top, say halfway up) You would die, suffecate from lack of oxygen, yet the local peoples handle it with no problems, but, if you take your time, in only a week or so you can also go to the same height without a problem. Physical adaptation often happens quickly on both species and personal scales and often what forms they take may seem very small or even not noticed.

[Larrath]

Here's a bullshit theory for this, then.

Young elves have a special stage where they must engage in regular, intense excerise in order to maintain their running abilitiez.

Desert elves spent their younger years in the desert and have adapted to a life in these surroundings.

City elves haven't, and have instead adapted to living in the city.


Yes, 'desert humans' are more suitable for living in the desert than 'city humans', but because they do not have an 'actual' benefit to lose.

A city human who trains regularly will be in the same shape as a desert human who trains regularly.  This is not the case with elves because they need to run particularly long distances to maintain the ability.

It is not possible for a city-elf to run laps around Allanak without having to stop to pass through the crowds or bow to that templar or just giving someone a headache and getting tossed in the arena.

So there.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Do storms not make you lose your way and walk in the wrong direction any longer?  It used to be unless you were a ranger or wearing certain gear if you walked into a storm you couldn't see in you'd get fuxored cause you'd type w but go a random direction sometimes.  

Is this out now?  Or what?

[Kalden]

I always thought that was just when it was dark(and you had no light).

[spawnloser]

Light levels and things in the way to prevent sight are two seperate things, yes, but don't they both cause the same thing?  Loss of visibility.  Think realistically, act realistically and don't worry about the code until you find out in game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Shoka, it did. I haven't run into a storm that did in RL years now, so I beleive that it has been taken out. Of course, one should RP being befuddled by the lack of sight, unless, of cours, you just wouldn't be.

[spawnloser]

V, within the last couple months, I KNOW for fact that I have run into the problem...if visibility gets too low due to lack of light or presence of storm either alone or in some combination has caused me to go the wrong way.  Mind, if you can read the room description, your character can see well enough to walk along happily...if you can't see well enough, you may want to figure it out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

V, within the last couple months, I KNOW for fact that I have run into the problem...if visibility gets too low due to lack of light or presence of storm either alone or in some combination has caused me to go the wrong way.  Mind, if you can read the room description, your character can see well enough to walk along happily...if you can't see well enough, you may want to figure it out.

Are you positive it wasn't night? I mean, me and a pahtnah who runs the desert was talking about this the other day, and it wasn't what was happening. If this is back in, good.

[spawnloser]

Like I said, I know it happened a couple months ago...but that was with a previous character, in a different area (not to mention different type of area completely).  Unfortuantely, I can not test to see if it is in, but like I said, I encourage everyone (as I'm sure you realized was who I was talking to for the last half of my post last time too) to simply play realistically, though.  Get a light source!  Don't walk around in the dark night in a sandstorm, people!

[WhiteRanger]

Rangers and perhaps desert elves (not sure about that one) can walk straight regardless of lack of light or the presence of a sandstorm. If this is realistic I do not know, but I also know in real life we dont have "Rangers" persay, maybe some close equivelants, but not any true "Rangers" to compare with our in game "Rangers".  So I think deciding if your ranger has the ability to keep it straight regardless of a storm is a decision the player has to make.

[Cuusardo]

I figured it was because they have a natural sense of direction.

[Forest Junkie]

I figured it was because they have a natural sense of direction.

You are correct, they do.

[Carnage]

dont have "Rangers" persay, maybe some close equivelants, but not any true "Rangers" to compare with our in game "Rangers".

A poorly trained Green Beret would qualify.

[spawnloser]

Um, what exactly were the people the US were fighting in Vietnam?  I'd call those fuckers rangers, being all sneaky and the like.

[Tlaloc]

Don't forget the Texas Rangers.

While they're basically the Texas FBI here, they originally started out, riding around in the wilderness, doing typical 'rangery' things.

Really well trained Boy Scouts might qualify, as would many real-world hunters.

[Lazloth]

I thought they were a baseball team.

[X-D]

Not mentioned so far, and would put anybody mentioned to shame so far are the many native tribes scattered around the world even today and in history. For woodlore, herbalism, hunting, tracking, poison use and more they would be the closest to a zalanthan ranger...or in many ways better.

[WhiteRanger]

Code Changes:
Torches now have a chance of extinguishing in high wind or bad weather. Please report any problems via the bug

command. (Script by Halaster, added to items by Ashyom)




YEA, NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE....KICKASS HALASTER!

[WhiteRanger]

Really well trained boy scouts? Ok, I see where we are going with this. The topic of debate isnt wether or not we have real world rangers, but for the love of god, just having wilderness knowledge dosent make you a ranger. A quadraplegic could sit around reading survival books and search wild herb knowledge on the net, be the most knowledgeable of all in the tactics of surviving the wilderness, but being a ranger is more than just a knowledge thing. Im talking a scrab chopping, travel all day and night without a saddle sore, spit in your eye, RANGER.