A little more harsh

[Forest Junkie]

I'd love to see this, when a vicious storm doesn't last four RL days. I'm all for harsh storms, but harsh storms aren't infinite.

I agree.

[Larrath]

Big yes for the brief but deadly sandstorms.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That was hyperbole, Venomz, which is ironic because hyperbole is not generally admissable in debates, and you claim that debate is the key to mental agility.

It was hyperbole, but to me, playability versus realism seems to be used in such hyper-bolic ways so many times.

And yes, I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist doing it.

[Forest Junkie]

Don't worry 7DV, I thought it was funny. But I'm goofy.  :?

[Kalden]

It was hyperbole, but to me, playability versus realism seems to be used in such hyper-bolic ways so many times.

Not so sure I understand that statement, but saying Armageddon is realistic seems like a hyperbole to me.

We should never have to worry about a dark night, where we can't see.

Human eyes should adjust to darkness. A realistic feature that hasn't been covered in many MUDs.

Torshs should last forever.

On the subject of torches... they should require a flint, and be very difficult to light in a "pitch black" room.

Eatting is annoying.

Virtually, everyone should be eating and drinking a whole hell of a lot more. Since that can't be played out, it should be extracted from their coin during login-ins. Virtual paychecks should be handed out based on professions.

I should be able to log out where ever I want to.

Realistically, I should be able to set up camp wherever I want, assuming I have the supplies. I can survive as long as I stay logged in indefinitely - why can't that apply virtually?

Somebody should not be able to shoot me with a bow and arrow from any distance whatsoever.

Somebody should not be able to shoot me with a bow and arrow from 3 miles away. Or is it 15 miles? I keep forgetting.

I want free housing, and a lock-pick proof lock.

I want to bar my door with a heavy wooden board. Pick that. :roll:

I also want to squat in a slummy house, because my warrior can rip apart whoever "lives" in it.

[sarcasm]Oh, and biting storms should rip the skin right off your bones, because that's super-realistic. They're actually tornadoes, only fiercer.[/sarcasm]

[Bug]

Kalden, i suggest you go to southern Israel, and live with the Beduins for a couple months. Preferrably in the summer.

Then we'll speak.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I actually like the idea of the storms being more harsh.

But I also agree that if it is implemented, that the storms -rarely- ever last as long as they currently do.

It would make being an independent hunter/forager/travelling merchant/ect... near impossible,  as she would starve to death waiting for a chance to go make some coin.

[Kalden]

Add some heavier move penalties, more stamina per room, and, if possible, a little HP damage if there's no face/eye protection, and it would be fine. That would probably be difficult to code, though.

What's the miles per hour of the wind we're looking at? I've been in 50-90 mph windy rainstorms before, and my skin was left intact. Didn't even get lifted up into the air.

Here's an interesting, perhaps extreme example of a sandstorm on the modern Earth: http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000546-17.html

[Angela Christine]

I'd like to see storms have -some- sort of affect.  But moreso outside the gates.

I don't think you should see a desert-elf who's unprepared for the storm.  It's part of the reason desert-elves are hardcore.  They live in that stuff all the time, and most people can't tolerate it.

I've no objections to making it harsher.

Agreed.  It would have to be well thought out though.

* Inside the cities the effect should be negligable, that is the  point 60+ foot high walls in Allanak, the walls and tarps surrounding Red Storm, and the walls around nearly every settlement in the known world.  Either no effect in the city, or a 1hp + 1sp cost per room.

* Outside the cities the effect should be light.  The goal isn't to make it impossible to travel, because some players have limited gaming time and need to get from A to B durring certain short windows.

* The length of dammaging storms should be strictly limited.  For example, every tick (Arm has ticks in there somewhere like other DIKU muds, right?) there is a 1% chance of a terrible storm mutating into a deadly storm. (In particularily nasty locations, like the Red Desert, it might be a 2% chance).  Each deadly storm would be pre-set to last 1-20 minutes.  However, as soon as it ends the 1% chance of another one starting would kick in.  This would give people caught outside the option of  hunkering down next to their kank (or in a tent if they brought one) and waiting out the storm, and then running for cover as soon as the storm lets up enough to make it safe to travel.  

* If possible, NPCs should hunker down durring a deadly storm and take storm dammage.  Hunters should stop hunting, other NPCs stop wandering, and so on.  I've seen some NPCs use the Rest command, perhaps most NPCs would realistically rest durring deadly storms, making themselves a smaller target.  Archery should be impossible for both PCs and NPCs durring a deadly storm.  Obviously NPCs in combat would keep fighting.

* Mounts and wagons may become more balky durring deadly storms, so it will take greater skill to keep them moving.  Even a tough old kank doesn't like moving through a deadly storm.

* Appropriate cloathing should help.  Considering the cloathing that the Blackwing are known for, appropriate clothing might not always be obvious.


I would suggest both hp and sp dammage each step, there are already some terrains that do this.  Stamina dammage means that even if you are riding you get tired, because fighting your way through a storm is tiring even if you are mounted.  Each step in a deadly storm would do 1-5 points of health and stamina damage (stamina damage is in addition to the normal stamina cost of moving through the room).  

Storm armor would reduce the dammage.  Having a particularily tough hide (like a mekillot, braxat, gith or some dwarves) would give you 1 point of resistance against storm dammage.  Possibly desert elves and tribal humans as well, because they are aclimatized to the weather.  So if the storm would normally have done 3 points of dammage, it would only do 2.  Some classes might also get a point of innate storm resistance: whirans for the afinity with wind, rukkians for their affinity with sand, and possibly rangers for their aquired familiarity with dealing with nasty weather.  So a whiran dwarf and a delf ranger might both have an innate storm resistance of 2.


Some gear would also provide storm resistance.  Each item would either provide exactly 1 point of storm resistance, or none at all.  This is too keep everyone from suddenly wearing the same cloak all the time because it happens to provide 3 points of storm resistance while most cloaks provide 1 or 2, either the cloak helps or it doesn't.  Period.  Storm resistance would be decided independantly of other bonuses or penalties.  A heavy leather cloak might provide storm resistance despite the fact that it also gives a -5 penalty to stamina.  Cloaks would be the main thing providing storm resistance, and the vast majority of cloaks would in fact provide storm resistance.  Many facewraps and veils would provide a point of storm resistance.  Most abas would provide storm resistance, even if they are worn on the torso location, with a cloak over them.  Some boots, shirts, gloves and other items would provide storm resistance.  Single layered sandcloth usually would not provide storm resistance because it is too light to stop sharp, flying sand, but multilayered sandcloth items usually would.  Items with wrapped cuffs, designed to keep out sand, would also be likely to provide storm resistance.  Funky Blackwing items would usually add storm resistance, even if they don't meet the other criteria, to encourage people to actually dress in their "traditional" tribal dress.  New-looking, fancy items wouldn't be more likely to provide storm resistance that crappy looking, broken-in used items.  Much of the stuff sold in places like Red Storm would provide storm resistance, even if it looks crappy and provides no other bonuses.  Both armor and clothing items would be eligable for the storm resistance flag.  Yes, the downside to this is that the Storm Resistance flag would have to be added manually to hundreds, possibly thousands, of items in the database.

Now a keen shopper might end up with a storm resistance score higher than 5, right?  The catch here is that no matter what your storm resistance score is (and obviously this would be a hidden score anyway) storms always have at least a 50% chance of doing the basic 1/1 dammage.  If you are wearing anything less than a wagon, deadly storms will still be dangerous to travel in.


Just a thought.

AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

* The length of dammaging storms should be strictly limited.  For example, every tick (Arm has ticks in there somewhere like other DIKU muds, right?) there is a 1% chance of a terrible storm mutating into a deadly storm. (In particularily nasty locations, like the Red Desert, it might be a 2% chance).  Each deadly storm would be pre-set to last 1-20 minutes.  However, as soon as it ends the 1% chance of another one starting would kick in.  This would give people caught outside the option of  hunkering down next to their kank (or in a tent if they brought one) and waiting out the storm, and then running for cover as soon as the storm lets up enough to make it safe to travel.

Exceptional thought was put into this, AC. But I will tell you now that if it runs a chance of happening every tick, there will be a LOT of those severe storms. Since Xygax has apparently perfected the time scheme and synchronization, I suggest finding a different trigger for the storms other than ticks.

In addition to this, all classes and races familiar with the desert should be proficent in a skill called shelter-crafting. A scrab-shell, for instance, could be made into a shelter. Some branchs could be lashed together. The classes might include nomad, ranger, and the races halfling and d-elf. Then again, maybe not. *shrug*

[Pantoufle]

I don't know if implementing damage caused by sandstorms will really add much to the game.  As it is, I often find sandstorms to be somewhat of an OOC punishment, especially when they seem to go on forever (at least until the next reboot).  

You're going to find people who will roleplay appropriately and people who won't.  You can't force everything.  I think it's enough that we have a constant reminder that the storm is terrible and blinding and biting and stinging every single room we enter.  I think the people who blatantly disregard these prompts are either a newbie (and if so, cut them some slack, dude) or they're just not as "upstanding of a citizen" as you would like them to be (and if that's the case, well, go taddle on them to the staff if it really bothers you or if you think the "twinks" are coming in droves).  

So what per cent of players out there are ignoring the would-be effects of a sandstorm?  And is that number high enough to demand the harshness of sandstorms to elevate?  As it is you're already blinded, unable to see further than one room away.  Your entire equipment list becomes spammed with that god awful dust flag.  The second the sun sets you're screwed.  Are you absolutely certain adding a health drain (or anything else) will sate your appetite for "harshness"?  Do you think it will remedy the problem of some players ignoring sandstorms?  And even if it does, will it also in turn deter more newbies form the game.

There is an inredibly fine line between IC harshness and OOC nuisance.  I find most people who say the game has allegedly lost its harshness are simply no longer newbies who know a thing or two.  That's not a bad thing.  Trust me, you throw any newbie into this game who wants to learn to play a rugged, wilderness survivor and they will be hard pressed to learn the ropes the first five times around.  Is that not harsh enough?  I've played this game long enough, myself, that I could probably tell you how to play a 'Rinther or hunter indefinately (and have fun along the way), but I still can't account for any number of variables that can lead to instant death.  The game is huge.  There are rooms out there that will kill you the instant you walk in (whether you are a 0-day merchant, a 60-day warrior, or a "maxxed" defiler).  And sometimes there isn't even a warning in the room before.  Trial and error.  Error means death.  Perhaps you know the grasslands like the back of your hand but there was always that one cliff you never climbed over to see what's on the other side.  Then one day you brave it up to find out and ... byebye.  There goes your character.

I'm always leery about implementing added dangers.  It's easy to think the game isn't dangerous when you've been around the block, but don't be fooled.  Even the learned can get diced real fast.  I don't think the "harshness" has gone anywhere.  And I don't think increasing the pain of sandstorms will be the solution to anything.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You are possibly correct. But personally, it's not for some twink or anything ... it's for -me-. I wanna get hurt in a sandstorm. I want encouragement to not be out in the stinging sands. I wanna stare at the screen in a morbid manner, cursing the luck.

It's for me, and not anyone else.

[WhiteRanger]

Ok people, I added a pole, vote for it. I personally am for having gimpka rats as magical beasts...but heh....thats just the Ranger in me.

[Pantoufle]

You are possibly correct. But personally, it's not for some twink or anything ... it's for -me-. I wanna get hurt in a sandstorm. I want encouragement to not be out in the stinging sands. I wanna stare at the screen in a morbid manner, cursing the luck.

It's for me, and not anyone else.

What's stopping you from roleplaying that out already?  Do you really have to have the code slice off a few health each time you step through a room where there is a sandstorm in order to immerse yourself in the experience?  And I'm not being rude or anything, man, I'm just saying .. straight up .. do you really need the code to do that for you?

Sometimes I find when the code enforces realism, it does it in such a way that doesn't always make sense in every sceneario and as such, I would rather make the decision myself.  Does my character get scratched and bruised by the abrasive sands, or has (s)he taken enough precautions to avoid this?  The code is almost always one sided and never considers multiple possibilities.

For more advanced players who know the ropes of survival and wish to receive an added difficulty level, I would suggest requesting for your character to receive the blood loss code.  Ever hear of it?  I guess it's used for "twinks" (god I hate that word), and if your health drops below a certain level you begin to suffer some drastic side effects that seriously hinder your ability to do much of anything but tend to your wounds.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't need the code to do it, I want to code to do it. I want the code to tell me that it is dangerous out here. You have a point about the code not thinking about everything, but I think that we have talked about it enough that if it ever were coded, it would look into many different senarios.

[Sephiroto]

This whole thing seems to be over the debate of players' abilities to roleplay the situation correctly.  I agree with some sort of penalty to travel in sandstorms and I propose much more lethal results.  There are penalties for being hit, for moving, for hunger, and  for thirst.  I don't think that we should be left to decide everything.  I myself have braved sandstorms before, but with harsher coded penalties I wouldn't have.  And the same for many others.

This is a clip of a little violent wind.  While not a massive sandstorm by any means it represents to me elements which are probally common within sandstorms themselves.
http://vid3.stileproject.com/a6c1f1ce5ea9575047cc5de9914311b8/vanish12.wmv  Watch the reaction of those inside the winds.  I personally think that people shouldn't be going anywhere in sandstorms, and if they do, they should be penalized via stamina, hp, temporary blindness, or by some sort of unseen creature waiting to eat helpless morons venturing out or trapped in the storms.

On the other hand, I think that the sandstorms should be more like the storms coded around Red Strom.  I think that they should be more frequent, bur shorter in duration.  Ones that blow up suddenly and subside just as quickly.

*Edited for link.  Damn stileproject.  If it works then its a duststorm video.  If not, then its another porn site like before.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Being curious, did you just paste the wrong link? But thanks for the intent. *grin*

[My 2 sids]

Although I can see how neat it would be to keep with very harsh storms, I'm still thinking playablity should come first.  Hunters and travelers only have so many hours to play on line too... it's not fair if the whole time is spent waiting out a storm.   One solution that may :idea:  work though would be to make the storms harsh, but only last one IC day or so.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think we all agree (those of us that agree that we need to make sandstorms do something, at least) that barring staff imposed magickal sandstorms, the violent ones should be reduced drasticly in length, yet increased drastically in reprecutions.

[spawnloser]

Personally, I want to see storms shortened in duraction as well...but I want to see those storms that show up be more realistic, for me and everyone else.  I'm not saying this to punish the twinks or force people to roleplay correctly.  I just want it for the fact that the mud was touted to me as the harshest thing out there...I've had characters die faster on worse muds.  The only problem here is waiting for a new character instead of repopping in town.  Make storms do something. Imagine the debate on how to get away from The Big Nasty (tm) that is chasing you when you're in a storm?  Do you risk the storm or Mr Nasty?  Oh, it'll be beautiful.

[Cenghiz]

Err... It's really great what it's argued to make storms become more realistic.. But...
I'm working at the moment.. This means I only have one or two hours of playing time for every day, even less most of the time. What if I wanted to play a ranger?

10:00pm.. Logging in.. A terrible sandstorm.. You grumble "Damn." And log out.
10:20pm.. Logging in again.. Still the storm's keeping on. You don't want to die eh? Log out..
......
11:50pm.. You yawn as you check for one last time, then you log out to sleep.

Of course it's better if it's more realistic, but some people can't afford staying in city.. Time for Whira's Anger will come again. Please let people who have time to afford waiting in city RP it, so we, people with less playing time can afford playing rangers, blindly getting back to cities to RP a little. (Yes I DO play unrealistically and run back to city with my ranger in storms if I log into that storm. It's the only way I could find out.)

[X-D]

Does it say anywhere in the docs what speeds Zalanthan winds get to?

I can't say as any of you can make any informed debate on sandstorms being deadly or even hurtful without such information.

See, though I've never been in like the sahara during high winds or anything, "blinding" sand and dust storms do exist here in the states in winds as low as 30mph, Not a speed that is a danger to a clothed human  in any way, though you can't see more then ten feet. I've been in them in oaklahoma and arkansas. I've also been on a beach (lake erie and lake michigan) during 60mph sustained and 80mph gusts, the sand STINGS, but it was not removing flesh, and a simple pair of jeans and a leather coat stopped even any sting on covered areas, biggest proble was the wind itself..well, and the occasional bit of larger junk flying around. So, I think it would take sustained winds over 100mph to be a danger, but then, you would not be moving against it anyway, so I don't think zalanthan winds reach that level. Personaly, I think the "terrible blinding sandstorms" Probobly have winds in the 40-50mph range. So, I had to vote Gimpka rats should be magickal.

[Anonymous]

Does it say anywhere in the docs what speeds Zalanthan winds get to?

I swear Halaster or someone once did a broadcast years ago during a really bad one telling everyone the winds were in the 90mph range, but I could have just been sleeping.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

We will find out shortly. I have posed that question in the Staff section.

[X-D]

Well, searched, nothing in the docs on actual speed, so, 40mph seems right, and not a danger, least not from the sand.

ALTHOUGH....What I would find interesting is "random flying objects" In the highest grade storms. Bugs, (you know, gimpka sized), branches, plants, barrel cactus, things that if striking an unprotected part of a person could cause some minor damage, maybe even some large enough to knock you off your mount (ride check of course). Just have script roll a check for every 60rl seconds somebody is in a storm, say 5-10% chance of something striking them, normal armor saves and other protections apply.