Commoners and Money

[Krath]

May I am just getting a bit anal as of late but whatever.  Recently, I have been watching the
commoner (PCs) of the game and how they carry themselves and the belongings which
they have. It seems extremely blown out of proportion.  I know many Noble houses pay
their soldiers anywhere from three hundred obsidian a month to as much as four thousand
I once heard of, How is this justified in a world which people are dying by the moment
because of lack of food, insufficient funding, and such.  I have played several guards
and my characters accumulated a lot of money, but I find it very unrealistic that
commons can buy extremely large bed sets, and out bid nobles.

Perhaps we should change the amount people are paid or perhaps not.  I just think maybe
some things should change and help add to the realism, because if you think about it a
majority of the noble houses provide food, water, and sleep quarters which should take
care of 95% of ANY commoners needs. Why do they need three hundred + obsidian a month,
why not fifty or seventy five? Why should they be able to deck themselves out in
all chitin armor, razor wrist wraps, several full silk wardrobes, etc etc.

I do not know, I am just going to throw this out there because it has been bothering me for
sometime. Any comments or criticisms are welcome. If flames start, I swear I will ask for this
thread to be locked.

[Angela Christine]

Perhaps we should change the amount people are paid or perhaps not.  I just think maybe
some things should change and help add to the realism, because if you think about it a
majority of the noble houses provide food, water, and sleep quarters which should take
care of 95% of ANY commoners needs. Why do they need three hundred + obsidian a month,
why not fifty or seventy five?

I seriously doubt that all, or even most, free employees actually live in the barracks full-time.  If you live in the barracks, where do your kids live, where does your granny live?  Sure, PCs are all orphans that keep their babies in backpacks, but most people would need to rent additional housing.  Well, unless you think the House allows all your relatives to live in the barracks too.  Some Houses may have general family quarters for low-ranking employees, but I've never seen evidence of it.

Most PCs don't rent additional housing.  They may not be able to find a Nenyuk, they may find renting a room to be pointless because of enthusiastic thieves, or they may simply be saving up all their money for a wardrobe full of silk doodads.  PCs are all hopelessly insane.


AC

[Bestatte]

If they didn't pay what they're paying now, there would be no incentive for anyone to join a house other than "prestige." And prestige doesn't get you silk scarves. How can you attire yourself in a manner fit for your lofty station in life, if you're getting less in a month, than what an unclanned thief can steal in an hour? Or less in a month than an unclanned crafter can earn in 10 minutes?

[Teleri]

I also believe that it is time for a change to occur in the amount of payment and what can be made available to the commoner PCs.  It's getting just ridiculous, seeing some people in super-fine armor or silks, or those with very valuable weapons/jewelry rivalling a noble's stock.  Unclanned commoners simply should not be able to have access to these things, or at least not so very many of them.

Perhaps it's time for the nobility and law enforcement to get just a bit more nasty with commoners.  For example, if a noble sees somebody decked out in silks that really make him or her envious, something very bad should happen to that character.  If such a situation arises where a noble is outbid, or out done by a commoner, perhaps it's time to assert some power.  After all, if one is a noble of any sort, then he or she is better than even the most wealthy or powerful of commoners.  Even publicly, a noble could have a commoner stripped of their finery, kicked into the dirt, and even killed for their subtle insubordination.  If this sort of thing isn't happening, if players are more concerned with playability than realism that they won't seek to ruin a character's life when it's most likely called for, then they are being real pussies.

To get rid of the problem with unclanned or very low-ranking commoners having such great finery, perhaps a law should be passed in Allanak stating that only those of full noble blood can wear silks.  I believe such laws have been used in even our world, from the wearing of purple cloth in Rome to that of pure silk in China.  Perhaps even certain colors, like jade in Allanak or red and white in Tuluk should be made unaccessible to those unworthy of truly representing the city/nobility.  Sure, this means that merchant houses won't be able to sell such items to the general public, but then maybe they should market them only to the nobility/merchant house members and their trusted affiliates.  

As for the suggestion that employees don't live in the barracks the entire time, I believe that is not fully true.  After all, space is limited in some areas and thus the price is extraordinarily high, or at least it should be.  It is quite possible that most characters would have a little hole in the wall in the slums to curl up into at night, but why do that when you have a nice, guarded barracks to sleep in?  Very few people would realistically have any sort of desireable accomodations in the cities, as those would be quite expensive to have.  One of the major perks to the clans should be that allure of having a safe place to sleep at night, where you won't have to rest with one eye open and a hand on your weapon.  

I don't think that the solution to this problem is merely to pay the soldiers less...although that four-digit salary does seem very high unless the earner is somebody INCREDIBLY valuable to the organization.  Instead, have certain materials and items made unavailable to the common people.  Then, people will have more incentive to join clans, in the hopes that they may be rewarded with these items and have the prestige of wearing certain garments.  When you say prestige won't buy you anything, then maybe it should.  Being a "full" member of a merchant or noble house should bring with it some major bonuses, other than free food, water, and shelter.  For instance, if a guard from noble house A is insulted by lowly commoner B, or even merchant guard C, then that should be considered a crime and perhaps even counted as insulting the noble house itself.  Status should be made a more crucial part of the game, but, I'll digress for the sake of this topic.  

I too think it is a problem when commoners are decked out in uber-fancy garb and wielding bejewelled claymores of etched obsidian.  It's just ridiculous that they would be allowed to maintain this image of power and affluence without drawing some pain their way.  There should be major obstacles to the gain of wealth, or else the entire game may suffer from a lack of harshness.

Don't think that I'm posting this to further my own PC's status or position.  I've played some very lowly people before in the game, with my current character as definitely no exception.  It just saddens me to see the game devolve into one where players have their characters amass great wealth and get "neat" gear.  Then, it becomes no better than much HnS games.

[ashyom]

Slight tangent - this is OOC reason why the value of silk was raised; most of you will have seen it particularly in South.  I've yet to tackle the northern clothes, but if ya'all northerners are ready for this change, I can push that up on my list of things to do.

Keep these ideas coming, I'm finding this thread an interesting read sofar.
-Ashyom

[moab]

I, for one, would love to see nobles take action IC on this.  When they see someone acting above their station, set them straight and humble them properly (at least in Alllanak).

[Agent_137]

there has been another, extensive, thread on this. I don't feel like using the search engine myself, I don't care. Just thought I'd drop the hint.

Oh, it's odd how we have a middle class in armageddon. Most fighting-to-survive-with-despot-kings-worlds didn't have a middle class.

I'm sure some one will have an example, and say that I am wrong, and they'll be wrong, because I used the word MOST. HAH. SUCKA. NICE TRY.

Sorry for that last bit, just an observation.

[Teleri]

Hell yes.  If people want to have PCs who gain power rivalling the nobles', then I actually have no problem with it.  However, they should take it underground.  Maybe wear those silks if they aren't banned from use by the commoners, but only around your cronies in secret.  If anyone tries to "flex" publicly, they should be smacked down.  

It doesn't have to stop at Allanak, however.  Tulukis can do it in their own way, secretly and subtly.  Noble A sees Commoner B gaining a lot of support, or is wearing the same outfit or better publicly one day.  The next day, Commoner B is laying face-down in the street, bereft of their fine garment and their supporters are no longer in the city for some reason.  This, I think, would be quite awesome.

Nobles should really take more control, and stop with bringing interaction only to their little family PCs.  Furthermore, nobles should be given this power if they don't have it already.  After all, there is nobody better than they, save for those in their family higher than themselves, and they are above the law.  The only thing restraining them should be the fear of incurring the disapproval of their peers.

Furthermore, I believe that there is a middle class: the merchant families, however they are the lower middle class.  Far lower...in fact, so low, the nobles should probably treat them little differently than an even lower commoner...except when they need something, of course.  Still, a merchant family member should at the same time be so quite higher than the average commoner, but not so much that they are completely above the laws governing even peons.

[Bestatte]

I also believe that it is time for a change to occur in the amount of payment and what can be made available to the commoner PCs.  It's getting just ridiculous, seeing some people in super-fine armor or silks, or those with very valuable weapons/jewelry rivalling a noble's stock.  Unclanned commoners simply should not be able to have access to these things, or at least not so very many of them.

Some unclanned commoners work ten times as hard, risking ten times as much to their lives, to acquire the things they get than some clanned commoners do. And some unclanned commoners MAKE all the stuff they have. That your clanned noble guard isn't allowed to have enough time to themselves, or freedom to acquire raw materials to make their nifty stuff - that's more of an issue of playability.  But I think it's dangerous ground to suggest that unclanned commoners not have access to the same stuff that clanned commoners have (not including official house uniforms, obviously). Unclanned commoners have MUCH more freedom to get this stuff than clanned commoners do, by virtue of the fact that they DON'T have any need to stick to a schedule, or have to follow orders never to leave the city.

If I'm hungry, I don't need to go to the barracks and ask the cook to give me food, or ask my noble boss's permission to leave him with the NPC guard while I grab a bite to eat at the bar. I can walk out the gate, kill a goudra, and have myself a fine meal.

If my armor tears - I don't have to beg my noble boss for a new one until 3 RL days from now, when I"ll actually be online during a scheduled game-day off so I can get the old one repaired. I ask an armorcrafter friend to make me up a new one - give him that goudra hide I skinned when I was getting supper, and within a couple of RL hours, I have a new piece of armor.

Don't begrudge the independents for being successful. Guards aren't SUPPOSED to be rich. They're supposed to be guards. If they were rich, they wouldn't need their noble house anymore would they? It's a symbiotic relationship. Indies take all the risks - they reap the rewards. Clanned house employees take VERY little risks - they get perks - but little in the way of rewards. It all seems very fair to me, and I've been on several different sides of the situation.

[Krath]

Bestatte, The discussion is not about guards vs independents at all, it is going on about
Nobles vs Commoners, and how much money should be accessable to both the
working independent, and the working guard/advisor or what it may be. It is just out of
control how much money Guards, advisors and such are paid, and dually ridicilious how
much money independent crafters can sell certain items for. I, and I believe Teleri
as well see this as the central problem.  Regardless, this is not a discussion about
Guards pay vs Independent Merchant Pay, it is about Commoners being able to afford
things they should not be able to, and as well, being able out dress nobles, templars
and the such.

[Teleri]

Exactly.

[Dracul]

I agree...rich commoners are really bad. I bet that the militias and such would enforce such things rpwise if there was motivation, and I don't nessecarily mean incentive, just that nobles or merchants point it out and ask them. As a miltia, if no noble or someone of highclass tells him of their offense, other than jelously, why the hell would they care if a commoner was rich, it wouldn't mean much to them.

Nobles should just get a lot louder. Oh yea. I've only had one pc thats...well...I would say I've only had one pc thats had an interaction with a noble, it was a long time ago though. My pc got real concerned about uh..dying...and the noble..yea. it ended up good for the pc and such, and wasnt an in depth thing at all.

Nobles should enforce their divine rights here, punish everyone else.

edit: Also...there dont seem to be many pc militias. But...there are plenty of npcs which could be animated if an imm found it noteworthy after a wishing up, etc.

[X-D]

I'm with Bestatte.


Besides, the maker of this thread and other posters are forgetting something.

And this something is VERY important.

And that is the FACT they are ignoring the NPC and VNPC population. That and you have to take noble and high merchant house pc's out of the equation. Now, you see 10 commoner pc's wearing silks and whatnot. First, that looks like a large number, but in a city of half a million, most being dirty stinking slaves and commoners that are barely making it, these 10 are a tiny tiny number, not even a percentage.

And Why would a noble care? The docs state that they are the fashion and trend setters anyway, if Lord fancypants is wearing silk and sees a commoner in silk, the only thing he is going to think is, AHH, How cute, and flattering, the poor thing is trying to imitate me.

Remember nobles are NOBLES, they are BETTER and they and the commoners believe it, a naked noble is still inherently BETTER then a commoner wearing the finest clothing and jewels in the game, and the nobles knows it, he would not be threatened, the commoner knows it as well.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I have always liked the idea of the merchant Houses restricting their sales of their best items to the qualified few, and not just on the basis of price - at least in the cities.  For example:

Kadius - would only sell the best silks to nobles/templars, and possibly in limited quantity, to House merchants who are Way High Up There.  Mid-grade silks might be available to other merchants, House officers, high-ranking aides, and other important commoners.  Low-grade silks might be available to the public, but at great cost, and they should wear out more quickly.

Salarr - Reserve the best armor/weapons made out of the more expensive and rare materials for sale in bulk to noble Houses for their guards, to nobles, to templars, and militia/Legion.  They're the ones that are going to buy in bulk; why would you sell things piecemeal and risk not having enough to meet that massive contract you have with a House?  Let the public have access to the stuff that's relatively easy to acquire (or impractical to sell in bulk.  Silt-horror shell comes to mind as an example of something difficult to acquire that you probably wouldn't sell a lot of.)

The logic behind this is that the higher quality items would take a great deal of time and effort to create as well as higher costs from the materials needed - and would therefore be rare.  I'm also going to make a point that I think tends to get glossed over a bit too much.  The merchant House monopolies are entirely dependent on the business of the noble Houses. The merchant Houses may be powerful, but they cannot exist, at least in their present forms, without the continued support of the noble Houses.  The merchant Houses know this, and I have to conclude that they would not do anything to knowingly jeopardize their main sources of money (and therefore power) - the noble Houses.

Why do you think the nobles are currently always hitting up the merchants for custom items?  I'm sure it's because they know perfectly well that any commoner with a deep enough wallet can easily afford the rest of the stock.  You avoid all of the aforementioned problems by simply applying a bit of discrimination on the merchant's end of things.

[X-D]

You all post too quickly.

House guards get paid a small amount, but everything else is provided so, the money is extra, normaly in a few ic years they manage to save up for some nice stuff.

Combine that with the fact that a noble would want to show of his house and guards and aides...shrug, I think they do really well at the moment.

As to merchants and crafters. Again, you all blad on and forget the NPC and VNPC world.

Most the PC merchants and such in game are single, no family or household to take care of, maybe that is not the case with the npc/vnpc,
maybe that money which looks like a lot when somebody gets to spend it on themselves barely spreads far enough to keep his faimly alive.

You guys should try actually "thinking" like a noble for a while before posting.

I said it before, I'll say it again.

As a noble, you are BORN better, period, end of story, it is NOT possible for you station to be threatoned by a commoner.

AND, -try- to remember that PC's are a tiny tiny percentage of the world. and even from them, only a small percent are rich enough to be decked out in silks and whatnot.

[Larrath]

In Allanak, it is practically impossible to tradionally out-dress a noble.

Fashion down there, as I interept the fashion docs, a way to flaunt power.  The more power that you flaunt, the more fashionable you are...but it is practically impossible to try and flaunt more power than you have for anything more than, say, a meeting or some celebration.

Clothes are tight, constricting and probably extremely hot.  Bishts and abayas are so long that tripping on them is more than just a possibility; it happens all the time if you do anything more than saunter, probably.  Sleeves extending past the wrist/knuckles/fingertips is going to be EXTREMELY annoying to anyone who has the use their fingers.

There probably is a problem with everyone and their sister being able to afford silks, but this is not the only issue.

First of all, it is possible that these particular nobles simply do not care as much for how traditional or fashionable their clothes are; they want a halter-top and a fez and that's that.

To remedy THIS part (as well as the first problem due to concerns of comfort), what is needed is a wagon-load of new crazy noble clothes that no commoner in their right mind would wear.  Like fur mittens that have two dozen rainbow-colored ribbons that close them, or slippers or robes/dresses SO long that a special slave is needed just to carry the back.  Think of the possibilities for oppressing people with a fifty-foot long robe..."Out of my way, table!".

Yeah.

So like I was saying...

Problem #1: Making too much money: I do think it could be nice if it was gradually but CONSISTENTLY (throughout all clans) reduced to something more humble.

Problem #2: Not enough crazy clothes to really set a barrier: let's all start submitting!  Come on, you can do it!  An item a day keeps Halaster away?   :roll:

[Bestatte]

Kadius - would only sell the best silks to nobles/templars, and possibly in limited quantity, to House merchants who are Way High Up There.  Mid-grade silks might be available to other merchants, House officers, high-ranking aides, and other important commoners.  Low-grade silks might be available to the public, but at great cost, and they should wear out more quickly.

Then you'll need to restrict clothworking PCs to merchant family employees only and turn them into special apps. Commoners can buy silk. Commoners can sell what they make to Kadius, and customers who can afford it can buy what those commoners are making. The ONLY way to keep unclanned commoners away from making really quality items (especially custom created items for special orders for special friends) is to remove the ability for unclanned commoners to be capable of clothworking.

Salarr - Reserve the best armor/weapons made out of the more expensive and rare materials for sale in bulk to noble Houses for their guards, to nobles, to templars, and militia/Legion.  They're the ones that are going to buy in bulk; why would you sell things piecemeal and risk not having enough to meet that massive contract you have with a House?  Let the public have access to the stuff that's relatively easy to acquire (or impractical to sell in bulk.  Silt-horror shell comes to mind as an example of something difficult to acquire that you probably wouldn't sell a lot of.)

See my comment regarding Kadius silk-makers and shops, vs. unclanned silkmakers and traders, and apply it to Salarr vs. unclanned armor and weaponcrafters.

[Krath]

No, As he said, Restrict it.. You are going to have higher of quality product coming from
the merchant houses because they know the tricks of the trade and can hire the best.
Just make accessable to the commoners the low grade silks, woods, rocks and such
and let them make their clothing, armor, and such from the lower grade items. They
could still be able to make the nicer ones, but at a cost since they would have to buy
the higher quality material to begin making the item.

[mansa]

Why doesn't house Kadius remove all aspects of silk from the game, then?

Make it impossible for the independant crafter to gain access to it?  

We all know that Kadius is the only house that has silk farms in the grey forest.

I think that Silk should be a Kadius Only thing.  Make it so that every other merchant house, and noble house, have to get Silk from them and them only.

It's a harsh desert world.  Do you think the tribes out in the wastes will have time to sit down and refine silk?  If they do, then the world isn't as harsh as I think it is...

Silk: There are actually two forms of silk on Zalanthas. One is harvested from the cocoons of caterpillars indigenous to the Grey Forest, while the other, a heavier, glossier thread, is spun from pymlithe blossoms. While not as durable as other fabrics, silk is prized for its rarity, its luster, and the brightness of its color.

[Seeker]

I am in agreement with X-D on this one on all his points.

But another thing that enters in the equation, at least with clothing, is the concept of -fashion-.  PC clothes last a -long- time, but the nobility sets the fashion (usually with a little help from those friendly Kadians), and should -do- so.

The height of fashion this month is lime green shoes whose toes curl up so high you have to tie them back to your shins.  Anyone wearing anything different is a laughing stock.  Let the commoners try to keep up with the changing styles.  Nobility has the cash to burn, but most commoners simply don't have that constant revenue stream.  The way it works now, where you buy one fancy set of clothes and are set for life, simply ceases.  Sure, you spent three large on a great outfit.  Too bad you will be publically humilated if you wear it now that it is out of style.

And the wise Merchant House will surely keep some items, either in auction or in regular sales, exclusively for its most favored customers.  Just good business sense.  If the nobility doesn't want it, then let the rabble buy it.  The nobility gets the strokes twice.  Once for being offered the exclusive sales, and second for seeing some poor schmoe who spent his life savings on a reject.

Rich commoners are the perfect solution to last year's fashions... and a good chuckle for the Nobles.


Seeker

[Armaddict]

...Pc's are the significant, noteworthy people who you -notice- in a crowd.

The people you -notice-, who spend long years doing boring training routines and being the last line of defense against anyone who dares attack their charge...aren't allowed to have money?

Noble houses commoners are -supposed- to be above the norm.  They wear silks.  They're vastly more well off than the rest of the city, who scrapes by on run-of-the-mill jobs that pay minimal amounts to keep their family alive.  Those who find work with the more wealthy get an advantage to their high pay -- Spare time.  This is why silks are allowed.

Merchant Houses are monopolies in business.  They make a lot of money.  They can choose who they want to buy things, however, why should they?  If Joe commoner pays that amount, then he can have this clothing.  Yes, it's expensive, but that guy HAS THE MONEY.  It's a seller's market, not a buyer's.  If that noble wants to set a trend, he'd better go out and design it.  Or hire a kadian to figure out something no one else wears.  The 'trend' is not the nobles wearing silks and everyone else wearing shit they smeared on to look like them.

This is another of the things I hate hearing things about.  If you aren't allowed to make more money, why get that noble job where you're expected to put up with more over that merchant house job, where you're paid less?  If you aren't allowed to make more money, why get that merchant house job over just some run-of-the-mill job where you make shit, dress in shit, eat shit, and die covered in shit?

You people are asking for forced poverty, when really, it's the roles we play, the jobs that are made available for PC's, that allow us to make -decent- money.  And that's the way it should be.

[JollyGreenGiant]

You're actually comparing two different scenarios, Bestatte.  My argument was that Kadius and Salarr would not make their own stock of rare and expensive and contracted items available to the general public.  Your argument is that any commoner could make those kinds of items.  In what way do you think that one commoner is going to have any influence on Kadius or Salarr's behaviour?

[Bestatte]

No, As he said, Restrict it.. You are going to have higher of quality product coming from the merchant houses because they know the tricks of the trade and can hire the best.  Just make accessable to the commoners the low grade silks, woods, rocks and such and let them make their clothing, armor, and such from the lower grade items. They could still be able to make the nicer ones, but at a cost since they would have to buy
the higher quality material to begin making the item.

Who's gonna stop the unclanned ranger/armormaker from killing his own mekillot and crafting the finest quality mekillot-hide armor in the known world? Salarr? They don't even know this guy exists, because they no longer allow him to buy decent raw material in their shops anymore. All they provide for him is the scraps. What about the jeweler who forages for diamonds in the sekrit diamond mine that Kadius doesn't even know about? Who's gonna stop the jeweler from making - and selling - a diamond tiara? Kadius? Hell no, the only thing they know about this jeweler is that she bought a rock-chipping tool and a few chunks of quartz last week. No threat to them, no sirree.

This will encourage independents to succeed even MORE than before, not less. Oh and as far as how easy it is to be a rich independent...

It's damned easy, IF you have no competition, and IF your primary class is a combat-oriented class. Remember, the shops only buy 5 of each item, and most of those items will give your crafter what he paid for the materials, and possibly a few sids more. In some cases the crafter will net less than what it cost him to make the thing..and if there's competition, he'll be lucky if he can sell ONE of those items to the shop between game resets. A new crafter has it very rough - he just can't make the kinds of things that will get him enough money to eat and drink water. If he has some other means of feeding and watering himself (being a combat-oriented PC so he can hunt for food), then he'll survive long enough to make a profit. But again - that's ONLY if there's no competition.

Some weeks, when I play a crafter PC, I can rake in 2000 sids. Per real-life week. But that money only goes so far, and when there's 3 other crafters in town all trying to be the first one to the shop after reset, I might go a full RL month without a single sid of income. And some days the storms are so bad, I couldn't hunt, or didn't play a character who was able to hunt anyway...and that 2000 sids had to pay for food, water, new materials, an apartment to store it all in because some of that shit is just too heavy to lug around (try carrying 4 "X" hides some day in your inventory, or 5 blocky chunks of "Y" stone because ONE won't fit in your backpack - heh). That 2k in a single week is awesome. That week. But when you have nothing coming in for the next 3 weeks, and need food, water, shelter, stable fees, and more material to make more stuff - it doesn't last long at all.

The expenses of an independent crafter are MUCH higher than those of a house employee. We don't get armor and weapons given to us. We have to either buy our own or learn to make it ourselves. We don't have our own private cook, and most don't have storage lockers to keep their stuff in. We don't have a house to GIVE stuff to us when we ask for it. We have to risk our lives to find our own in the wilderness.

It all evens out in the end. Rather than give clanned house employees less money, I say give them two things: 1) Give them more interesting and significant things to do, and 2) give them more freedom and time for them to spend some of that cash.

[Armaddict]

You need to read my other post.  Just because it's easy, doesn't mean you should do it.  Think IC'ly.  Being by yourself just because you, yourself, the player, know that you can do it, as I said, is just a purely unlogical line of thinking, in my opinion.

I seriously doubt any commoners would be thinking, "I'm going to stick to myself, so that I can make more money faster and buy things that will make me look like a noble and overwhelmingly rich so that people post on the GDB about how rich commoners are getting, even though I'm the exception rather than the rule."  There you go, my thoughts.

[marko]

Let us remind ourselves of a couple of things while discussing this.

1) Armageddon is a game and it has a game economy (ie, not much of one).

2) The PCs are not representative of the virtual or NPC population.  PCs by their very nature are individuals who are noticed for one reason or another.


Now, there are two issues being discussed.  While they are related in a small way, they aren't dependant on one another.

The first is a discussion about how PC House employees make in salary and if their work justifies it.

The second is trying to make a class distinction greater (specifically nobility versus common.)

To address the first, I bring up the concept that PCs are not your typical population.  As such, when hired into the House, it can be expected that they are being hired for critical, sensitive, or important roles.  As such, these jobs would carry a good valuation.  On top of that, it is in the best interest of the Houses (let us remember that there are more noble houses than merchant) to pay a high amount to lure the best.  Now, if they hire morons well that is their own problem and their own waste of coin.  The purpose is to bring on the best.

Is 200 a month unreasonable?  No, I think that much is a good salary for say, a merchant house.  Merchant Houses tend to have lower requirements than a Noble House.  Yes, there are exceptions and this is a generalization that probably shouldn't be made.  

Is 400 a month unreasonable?  I think that is a 'fair' amount for a Noble House.  This way you attract the better skilled and / or attituded PCs.  One thing I've noticed is that few houses are actually discerning when it comes to recruitment - and because of this, they have to keep upping how much the base positions are paid because everyone tries to recruit everyone.

When it comes down to it, it isn't the pay that is really attracting players - it is the availability of the leaders of the House, it is the concept of the House, and it is the 'cool' factor of being in the House.  Therefore, what is the purpose of the coin?  It's to give people some money to spread around in the game and it also is something of a bragging right (I'm paid 400 coin!).

Now, to address the second point about how to enhance the class differentiation through clothing - I would suggest a class of nobility clothing.  This clothing would be extremely expensive to the common class.  Nobles would receive preferential treatment as they should already be receiving.

For example, a simple hat.  Alright, not entirely simple since it would be overly ornate, guady, sparkling with gemstones, and maybe some petroch feathers.  For sale to a commoner it would cost 8000 coin.  To a noble, it would cost a far more 'reasonable' 4000 coin.

Other items in this class would range from 5000 - 10000 to commoners while they would be 2500 - 5000 to nobility.  

An independant may actually blow the coin for a specific piece but it is doubtful they would actually buy an entire outfit.  While a noble could easily do so over time.

On top of that to the general populace, everyone would _know_ that these pieces cost 5k-10k (and would not realize nobles are getting a huge price discount) thereby enhancing the Nobility are ultra rich image.

This would also allow merchants to play favorites amongst the nobility (offer an even better deal or charging a few extra thousand) depending on how they wished to be perceived.

Armour and weapons are an entirely different ballgame.  I would think the people that buy the most expensive and useful armour are independants and / or guards who actually need it.  As such, I don't see any reason why Salarr would restrict anything unless deals were made with specific Houses about custom orders or specific materials.  Of course, for certain things, it is in Salarr's best interest to charge an extreme premium to commoners.

[Bestatte]

But this has little to do with unrealistic expectations or goals of independent people. Some people create characters -specifically- to be independent. Not because "it's easy" - because anyone who thinks that is nuts. But because it's their character's background and history. Maybe they're just low-life scum with a gift for embroidery. No self-respecting noble or merchant family house would WANT this guy working for them - because he's a low-life rinthi, or desert elf, or a half-elf, or some gemmed magicker who lives on Wall Road, or whatever.

They're picking independent not because it's easy, but because it DOES make sense for their character to be independent. If there are people who don't do it this way - then I agree wholeheartedly with you Armaddict - they should rethink their character backgrounds and work with the game world in a more "true" way to the world.

The few that don't do this - and I really don't think it's a lot - should not be the cause for people to conclude that clanned employees are getting paid too much, or too little, or have it too easy, or too hard. I don't think it's fair to judge any aspect of the game on the basis of a minority of players who forget or ignore the "reality" of the game world.

[Armaddict]

I don't think the occasional, successful dependent (face it, you don't see it around -that- often as you're making it sound) should be the grounds to vastly change the way the economy is working right now.

[Anonymous]

If the economy is changed it should be changed in such a way that makes clan jobs worth the time and limitations on your freedoms from a monetary standpoint if nothing else.

Seriously, you make way, way, way more as an independent than you do in a clan.  

My first solution would be a drastic increase in food prices sold by NPCs but no increase on their buying prices for food.  This would help funnel non-outdoorsy types into clans.

[Armaddict]

I think employees make plenty of money.  The ones that aren't employees of everyone, have low chances of getting what they need.  The ones who do, make money, because the profit goes to them instead of the house.

Seems completely logical to me.  The last time I saw a filthy rich independent was awhile ago.  Otherwise, things seem fine.  One of them will continually have all the resources they need, while the other will need to spend money and hire people to help them, or risk going into dangerous situations themselves.

[Bestatte]

EXACTLY, Armaddict. Like I said - it all evens out in the end. You won't see "filthy rich" independents. It just isn't an issue. There has been in the past - but that's what, one every 3 RL years, maybe? You also won't see more than that many "filthy rich" employees.

Each method of earning sid comes with its perks and its downsides. The independent risks bad crafting/hunting days where there just isn't any good stuff to find, or kill, or they keep breaking everything they try to make. The independent risks their lives walking out of the gate to find their own material. The employee gives up his freedom and has to abide by a schedule. This gives him less time to hang out with his friends, or find his own stuff, or create his own stuff, or spend all his coins on stuff he wants to buy.

The independent also risks being in the front line when an enemy approaches the city - because he's already outside the city walls facing that enemy head-on. The employee has the risk of being forced by his employer to fight against an enemy he doesn't want to fight against.

The independent risks boredom of repitition - hunt, forage, craft, eat, sleep, socialize until the storm is over, then repeat so he can be sure he has food and water to survive next week. The employee risks boredom of repitition - spar, lunch, spar, supper, spar, socialize for 20 minutes, and if they're lucky - they get to stand next to the table guarding their boss for another hour until it's time to log off.

Risk - reward. It all seems fair to me.

[sjanimal]

I hear a lot of complainst about commoners, but the truth is....

Jobs in noble houses SUCK.  If wages were dropped any, we'd just stop taking those jobs.  I dare you.  Drop them even a penny.  

Don't mistake PCs for peasants.  PCs represent the upper echelon of people.

Even a PC noble is not going to be fat, lazy and ignorant like most nobles.  She's going to be smart, crafty and scheeming.

Similarly, commoner PCs are not going to be unwashed, poor idiots.

If you want to play a peasant...then play a peasant.  Don't expect the rest of us to play peasants.  Don't try to rain on our parade.  We're not the VNPCs, after all.

[Xan]

This is growing faster than I can read it but to address the first post on guards getting too much:

As XD said its all extra.  Also, if you lower it, people would have a hell of a time getting a full set of armor.  The big problem is that lowering pay hurts the starting clanned character alot more than the established one.

And lets be honest about this, anyone in the south with the forage command can make a ton of sid with little danger to themselves if they play it right.  But such independents are also not spending anything on where they live, so isnt that a little unrealistic if someone keeps that up and amasses a fortune but eats travel cakes and sleeps in the Gaj?

[Tlaloc]

Don't mistake PCs for peasants. PCs represent the upper echelon of people.

Not true. The majority of PCs are, indeed, peasants. Indeed, Commoner PCs represent just that: Commoners. IE: PCs represent the average commoner. Some PCs might be more affluent and well off. Others might be dirt poor. But they are all common, and ergo, do not represent the upper echelon of people, but rather the peasantry.

Nobles, Templars, and some Merchant Family members, as well as a few high-ranking commoners (mercenary Lieutenants, guard Captains, high-ranking military, Advisors to Nobles, etc), on the other hand, do.

[Anonymous]

I'm not talking about filthy rich commoners.  If you have the choice between a comfortable life free from restrictions, which is what most indy's be they ranger or merchant can get easy enough, or a comfortable life with restrictions on your movement, what is the average person's inclination going to be?

Jobs in a land like Armageddon should be the stuff everyone wants to get.  When I frst started playing nearly everyone in Allanak wanted a job because, at the time, Kadius and Oash were the only active clans in town.

Look back at the depression in America.  People would do anything for a paying job, yet the land they live on is infinitely more fertile and alive than Amarageddon will be.

Independent PCs are my favorite PCs.  I rarely, if ever, play clanned PCs.  Still the reality remains that jobs in a barren wasteland should be the stuff of dreams.  And it just isn't, the demand for jobs seems unreasonably low to me.

That's a tangent, I guess.  Bringing it back to the topic at hand I'd be glad to see economic changes which made independent life much more of a struggle because it would make clan positions the subject of competition instead of employers begging.

[Larrath]

Being a mindbender mul sucks.  Playing a red-robed templar sucks.  Being a noble sucks.  Being a merchant sucks.

Every position can absolutely rock or absolutely suck, depending on two major factors:

1) What *you* are doing to make the position enjoyable
and
2) Whether you chance and get some really cool people in your clan.

I would be careful saying that "we" would just stop taking these jobs...I don't know about you, but how much money my character will make every month is never even taken into consideration when I plan my apps.


PCs do NOT represent the upper echelon of people.  'Rinthi pickpockets and Red Storm spice sifters and Bynners are hardly the 'upper echelon', and some characters actually are idiots.

A PC noble is not going to be fat and lazy?  Since when?  Ignorant varies, but I doubt that many nobles are truly ignorant.  They might not care, but they are probably tutored fairly well.  Most NPC/VNPC nobles are scheming, by the way; it's just that they're doing that with people you don't know and against people you don't know...and damn straight some commoners are unwashed, poor idiots.  Sure, maybe they're not starving unwashed idiots, but still.

If you want to acquire extra gold as a House Guard, there are lots of things you could do.  You can smuggle equipment from the compound and sell it to a network in the Labyrinth.  You can rob someone.  You can be a secret raider.  You can steal from your employer and say that the elf did it.

Nobody is going to rain on your parade; it's a waste of water.

[Lazloth]

There's a good bit of insight in this thread, and I'll highlight what I find on the mark.

Armageddon is a game and it has a game economy (ie, not much of one).

This weakness applies centrally to this discussion; Arm has a very stale economic model, not limited to but certainly obvious:
* Minimal PC-to-PC interaction and dependence;
* Overproduction with no shifted resource pool;
* Oversupply with no shifted supply curve.

A solution akin to arbitrarily raising the price of silk is inadequate; it would be an exercise with simple results:  I would prefer to see instead a model of dynamic liquidity and pricing become slowly introduced.  If it has to start manually, let it start manually -- duskhorn are systematically slaughtered, let the herds migrate and dwindle in number.  Route traders keep bringing lumber to Allanak?  Demand doesn't hit the floor, but supply increases gradually: pricing drops.  Scale with a trickling week-to-week engine and you have the makings of an open independent economy with repercussions to big money houses.  Fruit crop gets severely impacted by a rogue fire?  Wine prices rocket, and production stagnates as the rebuilding process occurs with the vendor houses impacted.

Can allow for fewer 'mystical' rpts where resources are sought and secured, where house guards and individual actions impact the world (more).

But I digress..

Jobs in a land like Armageddon should be the stuff everyone wants to get.

Agreed, and as mentioned, while economic growth may be restricted, there are other perks.  A good leader will draw players into affiliated clans and ultimately I'm not playing to have the largest bank account.


I always laugh when I hear people have to really struggle to make ends meet to afford food & water though.

[My 2 sids]

Facts like if one is born to a noble or commoner house, a well-known merchant house or to someone's trusted aide, what race one is born into, if one is born into the right city or not, etc. these are what makes up 99% of one's status in game.  This means that birth rank has more to do with status and power than money.  There should be extremely few instances (if ever) a noble is out bid by a commoner for anything, not because the noble is rich, but because the noble is a noble! Some things are just more important than money.  Players must remember that the game is not taking place in a capitalistic society; everything isn't for sale to everyone.  If money is getting too much power in game ICly, I would hope that the nobles and templarate are going to start doing something to defend their rights and privileges (that come from their birth, not money).

[Akaramu]

I still believe the lack of realistic interaction with and among gemmed is more of a problem than this.

I dont care about commoners wearing silk, maybe they earned a high position within their house and received permission to dress in silk?

Some people raise to high and trusted positions and might want to reflect this by showing how much their noble appreciates their work. I dont think that any commoner could realistically out-dress a noble, I agree with the "how cute, he tries to imitate me" view.

I do care about commoners openly hireing gemmed without anyone even looking at them funny.

[sjanimal]

Okay, Tllaloc

You're a story teller and I'm a noob, so I'm going to say this is a case of you are right and I am wrong...

But if that is the case, then this is completely different from ANY game I've ever played before.

Also, in that case it's kind of cheezy to have so many people with warrior skill, ranger skills, thief skills, etc.

So, If I'm really just average joe...I should probably have 40 hp due to malnourishment, be afraid to talk in the presence of nobles....be afraid to pick up any weapon larger than a dagger...be afraid to leave the city under any pretext...have a boring job peeling potatoes for someone...in essence, my character would be so boring I wouldn't want to play him.

So, what your proposing is completely against the wisdom of what any other RPG has done in the past 30 years.  

Are you sure about this?  Have you thought this through?  It would pretty much reduce everyone to the status of bad role-players, since I've only met like 2 people who actually played UNWASHED, UNAMBITIOUS peasants.  Also, NONE of the nobles really play the typical redneck noble as I understand them.  So, has this really been thought through?

Keep in mind, I'm not the sort of person who rivals the nobles in salary like some people...but, geez, playing peasants will create severe playability issues.

[Armaddict]

I actually agree with Sjanimal, somewhat, Tlaloc.

I wouldn't call the PC's the 'upper-echelon', but the 'notables'.

What is it about that fella who's playing average joe that makes him stand out?  He's notable.  He's got something different.  And that will be shown when he is one of the relatively few who finds a decent job, begins to make some money, and starts making a more than decent living.

PC's don't represent anyone.  They are sometimes the exceptions, sometimes the most simple basis of what a commoner is.  But it should be agreed, that when you see a PC, they are always just that bit different than the throng of people in the market.  If they weren't...I think I'd be whining and asking for permanent hide for everyone who dressed like an average joe, since he'd blend in with vnpc's.

[jstorrie]

I think everyone's barking up the wrong tree, here.

The problem isn't that Random Joe Commoner can blow twenty-eight thousand obsidian on a leet silk outfit.  It's that Random Bob Rinth Rat can't easily jump him outside the Barrel, stab him to death and sell his clothes for spice-money.

Deal with the super-NPC-guards problem, and I bet commoner PCs will start dressing a bit more according to their class.

[Pantoufle]

I hear a lot of complainst about commoners, but the truth is....

Jobs in noble houses SUCK. If wages were dropped any, we'd just stop taking those jobs. I dare you. Drop them even a penny.

Don't mistake PCs for peasants. PCs represent the upper echelon of people.

Even a PC noble is not going to be fat, lazy and ignorant like most nobles. She's going to be smart, crafty and scheeming.

Similarly, commoner PCs are not going to be unwashed, poor idiots.

If you want to play a peasant...then play a peasant. Don't expect the rest of us to play peasants. Don't try to rain on our parade. We're not the VNPCs, after all.

Just for good measure I felt like reposting what was already said.  This is precisely how I feel.  Sometimes I just think people need to get over the fact that PCs are not NPCs and that's that.  You want to squander the common and beat them into submission so they're all wearing pisspoor clothing like most NPCs are depicted wearing, clad in the one simple grey aba they will ever own their entire life?  That sounds great, except it's incredibly boring for the players involved.  You won't ever find someone play the mundane, impoverished potter who struggles to eek out an existance with the day-to-day grind of hawking his paltry wares.  And if you do, I'm willing to bet (s)he's either a) going to get bored of the role 2 days later and suicide or b) is secretly a mindbender or well-trained assassin or has some other nifty little secret that keeps the role fun.

Nobody wants to be what the NPCs, the mass, the norm, are meant to represent.  And why should they?

[sjanimal]

I was thinking of making a separate post about this....but do people who comment on this kind of stuff have a basic understanding of statistics?

I challenge you all to go to your local DMV.  Sit at the DMV, and watch the people that walk in.  Maybe one out of ten is hot.  Maybe one out of ten has a REALLY good job.  One out of ten owns a sportscar.  One out of ten is appreciatably creative.  These are the common people of your town.  I mean, really go and look at them before you argue with me on this.  Sit there for an hour and people watch.

Want to talk about nobles?  Go to a country club sometime and do some people watching.  Watch the fat.  Watch the lazy.  Watch the jaded and the over-priviledged.  College-educated?  Yes.  Well-read?  No.
Bill Gaites, Donald Trump, and Martha Stewart are not cut out of the same fabric as these schmucks.  

I'd rather play a Donald Trump or a Dr. Condoleezza Rice than a Paris Hilton.

Armageddon has a player-base that's smarter than your average person, more competitive than your average gamer,  and more independent.

Expecting us to play peasants, if that truly is the wish of the staff, and keep in mind when I say peasant I don't mean poor person I mean stuppid peasant, if that truly is the wish of the staff, I believe will only cause discrepencies in role-playing as well as alienated player base.

Personally, I'd leave the game if I'm expected to play unambitious, uncreative and stupid.  I'm not saying that as a threat, because I feel sure this can be resolved, but I just want you to see what you're asking.

One more thing...allot of the people that are criticizing the rich commoners don't appreciate how short-lived many of the rich commoners are.  There are many reasons for this.

[Cenghiz]

Hmm. Joining the fray...
No worries... No commoner can outdress a noble.. Because we have the class 'burglar'... Only thing, we don't have enough PC's... Only the furniture stealing ones, and AFAIK those die or get banned from that role quite fast. A few more burglar PC's and most will have to stop buying silk, knowing that it can be stolen quite easy with all those burglars around. Not most of us will be able and be reputable enough to buy a slave who waits in our home when we're offline. (Anyway, I'm wondering how people will react when we do such a thing, leave a NPC slave in the apartment's sitting room, with some food and water which's going to be junked when we get back to the game. He won't auto-attack, anyway...)

[Bestatte]

Facts like if one is born to a noble or commoner house, a well-known merchant house or to someone's trusted aide, what race one is born into, if one is born into the right city or not, etc. these are what makes up 99% of one's status in game.  This means that birth rank has more to do with status and power than money.  There should be extremely few instances (if ever) a noble is out bid by a commoner for anything, not because the noble is rich, but because the noble is a noble! Some things are just more important than money.  Players must remember that the game is not taking place in a capitalistic society; everything isn't for sale to everyone.  If money is getting too much power in game ICly, I would hope that the nobles and templarate are going to start doing something to defend their rights and privileges (that come from their birth, not money).

If nobles don't want to be outbid, they can open their mouths and inform the merchant houses to stop opening auctions to the general public. If the merchant house opens auctions and sales to the public, including commoners, it is because they -expect- to get the highest price for the items they're selling. Why in hell should they take less, simply because a noble shows up and says he wants the uber obsidian plasma lava lamp but is only willing to pay 20 sids for it? If a commoner is there and says he'll pay 20,000 sids, and has the cash to give out, then it is the merchant house's prerogative to accept the bid.

If it bothers the noble houses that much, they can hire their own crafters and never need to buy another Kadian silk lava lamp again. Or - they can sit there and allow the merchant houses to do their business as they see fit - or they can demand otherwise. Can't blame the customer for bidding if he's invited to attend and bid.

[Xan]

My take:

PCs are notables, but dont confuse notable with upper class or priveledged.    Notable can mean a notable beggar, or notable peasant.  You start off as a peasant, dont confuse that.  Your free, but so is the little kid selling rotten fruits around the corner whose starving.  Your background may be better than those under the poverty line for Zalanthas (meaning you get enough food and water to be healthy by relative standards) but yer just a freeborn commoner.

You get noticed, you can get into interesting stuff, you can make a fortune.  Your PC isnt stuck in a rut like most of the Vnpc population but you arent any better than your average commoner status or monettary wise, at least starting off.

[sjanimal]

Xan

Thank you, I think you said what I was trying to say much better.

[spawnloser]

If the economy is changed it should be changed in such a way that makes clan jobs worth the time and limitations on your freedoms from a monetary standpoint if nothing else.

Seriously, you make way, way, way more as an independent than you do in a clan.  

My first solution would be a drastic increase in food prices sold by NPCs but no increase on their buying prices for food.  This would help funnel non-outdoorsy types into clans.

This could funnel outdoorsy people into clans too.  Even better, make water more expensive too.

[Anonymous]

Jobs in a land like Armageddon should be the stuff everyone wants to get.

Agreed, and as mentioned, while economic growth may be restricted, there are other perks.  A good leader will draw players into affiliated clans and ultimately I'm not playing to have the largest bank account.

To clarify what I was getting at wasn't about bank account size but standard of living and security.  Not to mention the resulting sense of superiority over the struggling masses while you wear your house colors.

Clan jobs in Armageddon are now the equivalent of a McJob.  They are always hiring, the wage is drastically lower than what you could earn on your own with some initiative (the shift to a 2 RL week month hurt since clanners now get half as much pay) and you only need to be able to fog up a mirror to get one.  But I keep leading this thread astray.

[sjanimal]

If the prices get tweaked noticeably, that sure won't force me to join any clans.  Might force me to pk a few people to keep enough money...but I guess them's the breaks.

[Delirium]

A responsibly played indie often just scrapes by, though it does get easier and easier to live the better they get at their given profession - however, if something were to happen to them, they have nothing to fall back on but the good will of other characters and their own grit and ability to pull their lives back together and make something out of nothing.

Please don't 'funnel' people into clans, or 'force' them to join. Some people simply do not enjoy playing in a clan environment, and some people are playing characters who would not realistically join a clan, whether due to racial or background or a combination of both reasons.

I'm all for making it more difficult, though I challenge anyone to survive mainly outside the cities, not inside them (i.e. tavern sitting every night, running out at dawn to and rape the landscape of all easily gatherable items in the span of an IC day and hunt every last thing they see, then hop back into town to lounge about in the bar again), and then say if they make "a ludicrous amount of money".

[Bushranger]

A responsibly played indie often just scrapes by, though it does get easier and easier to live the better they get at their given profession - however, if something were to happen to them, they have nothing to fall back on but the good will of other characters and their own grit and ability to pull their lives back together and make something out of nothing.

This has happened to me several times. My in game personality seems to be doing well but then a fine paid to a templar for some slight, a stolen kank loaded with possessions or some other catastrophe has caused them ruin and, in some cases, death. This is the price one pays for playing an independent.

What is the real problem here though, that house guards and other clan employees get paid too much money? First, and the documents state this, house guards are a highly desirable position because they DO pay a lot more than other jobs. I firmly believe house guards should be getting the wages they currently are. Secondly skilled crafters have always held a high position in society through-out civilisation.

Now to the fact that independents have too much money I don't know if this is a problem or not so I won't comment upon that, instead I'll think it over.

One thing I will say, if people who sat in a tavern ALL night talking would drink more than one cup (mouthful?) of ale or wine we really wouldn't be having this problem.

Bushranger

[Marc]

Problem:  Armageddon's economy is whack.  The economy is the root in 90% of the above stated problems and if it was corrected they would work themselves out.

As it stands a commoner can get an insane amount of obsidian relatively easy.  With that money (s)he can buy all the silk (s)he wants, bribe all the officals he wants, and hire all the talent he wants.  And as Lazloth touched on above, the game will do little to nothing to stop any particular money making scheme.  When an imm does notice the end solution rarely does much to stop it (the massive logging along the scaien wall a couple/few years back, the spear trade at one point, a certain knife to a certain market etc etc).

If we want to 'solve' the successful independant problem, we have to cut back on money everywhere.  Resale should be dropped to pennies (figuratively speaking) on even mid-quality gear, not just gith equipment.  

Crafting needs to be overhauled, starting with value and then end results.  Nearly every single craft skill includes a ridiculous recipe, most many more than one.  Something that is so over valued and easy to make that for a character to make anything else would be self defeating.  It would be nice if most recipes had varying results depending on success ie. if you're good at making bone longswords, your longswords will be more impressive then someone who just started, but unless they really screw up they will also succeed in making a longsword, albiet a shabby one.

I'm rambling.

All in all automated obsidian needs to be severly restricted (npc merchants etc) and the price of necessities (water, ale, food) reduced similarly.

Crafting should be profitable from the start, but very moderataly so (enough to buy the cheaper food/water).  Master craftsmen should be good enough to become wealthy, but not tens of thousands of sid each boot.  Hell, not even thousands of sid.

It would be nice to see this with a new character:
>inventory
>In inventory:
>105 obsidian coins
>
>list
>The merchant has the following goods to trade:
>01) a cup of water for 3 obsidian coins.
>02) a loaf of bread for 4 obsidian coins.
>03) a sandcloth shirt for 10 obsidian coins.
>04) a curved obsidian sword for 40 obsidian coins.
>05) a dress of purple silk for 800 coins.

Actually make common possessions easily affordable by anyone, but the silks and nice armor out of reach for anyone but the successful.

This would take so much work I would hate to even imagine, but without a total overhaul, arms economy will continue to breed inconsistancies in the world and docs.

[Bushranger]

I believe even with a full overhaul armageddons economy will still have many bugs waiting to be found. I think everyone needs to remember that this is a game and code can not take everything into account. A lot of the economy just isn't coded nor should it be coded. There are hundreds of thousands of VNPCs all over the world who would all affect the economy and no code is perfect.

Even if we could overhaul the economy code so it was perfect then what? Soon more things will filter into the code, more recipes will be added and new bugs will pop up (Look at quivers and sheaths just now) and will again need another overhaul in a few years as people again find new ways of tricking the system into giving them tens of thousands of 'sids.

What is the solution here then? I can only suggest that what is happening now continue in the future. If you find that selling a bone longsword to the super sekrit merchant in the second hidden room of Steinal will result in a profit of a million 'sids then bug it. Players can also JUNK items and coins as they give it to their VNPC families or bail out their VNPC friends.

Thats right, players themselves can remedy the situation by simply not hoarding. I know many don't want to do this, they want the imms to code something to solve the problems, but if we can change player behaviour then I think that the economy problem will not be so great and imms will be able to patch only those places that need attention.

Don't think it can be done? We've done it before. Who else remembers hanging in Flint's with Mantis and Halflings and Defilers and Blackwing with bowed legs from so much riding?

Bushranger - who still has faith that players can make the right choices.

[X-D]

The funny thing is, (and I do not think there is a problem, being of the PC's are notables of a peer group camp) Every solution brought up so far would cause other things to happen that probly the same people would be complaining about. One is, I'm SURE the pk rate would skyrocket, hell, I know I would be killing many more PC's.

An actual variable and dynamic econimy would be great, but a HUGE amount of work.

Me, I'd like it to be more based on PC's, get rid of every item above ave in EVERY npc shop, and I mean every one of them, Except a few npc shops of each of the 3 merchant houses, and these shops should have NOTHING that loads on a boot, but must be stocked and will only buy from PC's of that clan. Put in some shops that anybody can sell to but also do not load anything on a boot, lower the prices raw material npc dealers pay but keep the selling price the same. This would mean that the "good" items have to be PC made and the hunters would be more willing to search out the PC crafters to sell materials. Indy chars would have to work MUCH harder to make cash, not much harder to survive, food and water availability is good as it is...Oh, and the same goes for the food venders, nothing on a boot except for maybe flour and some old meat, though they will buy food and sell what they have bought.


The craftable items numbers have reached what I think is a high enough percentage to allow this sort of system, though barely.

This system would make clan positions more desired, that offer of free food and water would look damm good, and 300 sid a month free and clear with no expenses a hefty chunk of money allowing the pc house guard to be able to buy the nice stuff. While making the indy role more of a challenge but still playable and fun.

[Bushranger]

The funny thing is, (and I do not think there is a problem, being of the PC's are notables of a peer group camp) Every solution brought up so far would cause other things to happen that probly the same people would be complaining about. One is, I'm SURE the pk rate would skyrocket, hell, I know I would be killing many more PC's.

An actual variable and dynamic econimy would be great, but a HUGE amount of work.

Exactly my point X-D.

I also agree that the solution needs to be more PC driven than a coded system. However I am very much in favour of a set of rooms for the major merchant houses that are stocked by certain clan members as you suggested. Perhaps even have a special room for nobles and the like that is guarded much as the Trader's Tavern is in Allanak that would sell their top merchandise.

[spawnloser]

Do it.  I want more PK.  I have played a character for about a year that SO should have been PK'd with all the people that were pissed off at it.  Nope.  Not even a single PK attempt by another player.  An IMM animated character attacked him once, but that was more for the theatrics, so I don't count it.  I say overhaul it and let the player tension rise along with it.  People play characters that should realistically consider killing someone, but don't because there's no reason to take a risk.  Give them a reason, let's go.  There should be a reason to take a risk, your life.  I'm waiting.

[Anonymous]

Please don't 'funnel' people into clans, or 'force' them to join. Some people simply do not enjoy playing in a clan environment, and some people are playing characters who would not realistically join a clan, whether due to racial or background or a combination of both reasons.

I generally hate being in a clan.  I far prefer being an indy.  But the way it is right now there are many more cons to being in a clan from a pragmatic standpoint than there is in playing an idependent.  This is contrary to how I feel it should be.  That is all I'm getting at.  With clans you have a limitation on your movements and an enforced schedule of sorts that is generally strict and forces specific activities on you.  There needs to be more of a reason to endure that other than just the promise of the occaisional clan RPT (which come in varying degrees depending on the clan) and the supply of food.  And based on the observations of the original poster (that I agree with) I think that the best reason for people to join a clan is to make life in general for commoners a more realistic economic hardship.

In most clans you earn 150 coins a RL week now.  Even a responsibly played Indy is going to do much better than that in a RL week including paying for food and water.  And they do it all without having to go to sparring practice, instead being able to choose the day's activities or interactions.

On the flip side, I'd much rather play my indys so that their goals, until they become uber, all have to do with survival and not getting razor crotch wraps and wrist strapped crossbows.  It's more compelling to me and more engrossing.

[Angela Christine]

This thread is a tempest in a teapot.  There is no problem, or at least no serious problem.  There are some minor irregularities, that do not prevent you from playing the the kind of role you want to play.  The irregularities may allow other people to play roles you don't want THEM to play, but that really isn't your buisness.

***

Funnel people into clans?  Why?  Sure, most clan jobs are highly desirable ICly, I think that everyone understands that.  So what?  Some people in our world would rather be an independant entrepenure than join House IBM, House McDonalds or the Mafia.  Go figure.  In Zalanthas (like in RL) most people take a job with a big organization either because it is desirable or because they are afraid of going it alone, and the VNPC population reflects what "most" people are doing.  The PC population is not a proportional representation of the population in general, and won't be until half of all PCs are slaves.  Yeah, right.

***

Like Delerium and Bushranger I have had an indie totally wiped out by one misfortune.  I had a RANGER die of dehydration after a robery (she lost her kank, her bow, her pack full of stuff, boots, cloak, basically she was worse of than an newbie financially).  Ok, if she had handled it differently she could have lived.  If she had tried to raise money by foraging for roots instead of digging for clay she probably would have made it, but she was afraid to leave the city without a kank.  It is very easy for and independant, even a prosperous and somewhat skilled independant, to get wiped out.  A clannie just has to hang in until his next payday.

***

If I get into a clan, I want it to mean something.  I've almost entirely given up playing "ordinary" humans because I want to avoid the scoop-up-everything-that-breathes recruiters.  If I play a c-elf, halfelf, rinther or freak then I will have to work hard and prove myself to get into most clans, so getting into the clan and staying there is an accomplishment.  Cripes, I've had a character turned away from the Byn!  Now that's satisfying.  An ordinary human that wants to join a noble house -- blah.  The hardest part is finding the recruiter.  But a half-elf or 'rinther that dreams of going to the Tor Academny, well, that is a challenge.  A Challenge is fun.  

***

Yes, it is relatively easy for an experienced independant to make a lot of money.  So what?  It usually leads to death or boredom within a few weeks.  Even if you have a stupid goal like a silk outfit or a matched set of razor wristwraps and anakore gloves, you will eventually reach that goal and then what?  Sooner or later the aquisition of wealth stops being a motivating goal for a PC.  You have the items you wanted and a comfortable amount of money in the bank, so cranking out spiral-carved incense burners loses its appeal.  You don't want to keep foraging for stones anymore, because you have too much to lose now.  So maybe you start paying other PCs to bring you stones, which leads to interaction.  Or you've killed hundreds of duskhorn and it is really starting to get old, so you become a consultant teaching recruits of certain organizations the way of the land, you still aren't a full member of that clan but you are interacting with them.  A long-lived independant tends to get entangled with other PCs, it just takes a little longer.  

***

The fastest road to wealth is over the bodies of others.  Seriously.  Most of my independants that have gotten "rich" with unseamly haste got there by finding corpses.  A couple dead newbies can ruin your whole "struggling commoner" concept.  :twisted:  I've designed characters with an un-Zalanthan distaste for touching corpses just to avoid this, at times when I've really wanted a chracacter to struggle.

***

There are a lot of minor problems, but they don't add up to a major problem.  People just like to complain.

Tempest in a teapot.


AC

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of minor problems, but they don't add up to a major problem.  People just like to complain.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was misinformed as to the nature my own opinions.

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.  Being in a house should be a matter of prestige and should carry with that honor a sense of security that the rest of the filth-scrounging commoners can only dream of.  Instead it is the other way around.  If you want financial freedom, don't join a clan.  Completely the opposite of what you would expect from a barren wasteland.

The economic situation in Armageddon is as big a problem to me as if the majority of PCs were magickers.

But don't let me stop you from labelling contrary viewpoints as people just liking to complain and I'll go on believing I actually feel this way.

[Angela Christine]

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.

Money has very little to do with with the lack of demand for those jobs.  This is a game, I play a game to have fun.  It is a roleplaying game, which means I have to realistically play my role, so I have to be very carefull OOCly to choose a role that I will enjoy.  Most clans have pefectly reasonable restrictions that have the potential to feel like a staight-jacket, and there is no way to know what it will be like until after you join.  Most clans are very hard to leave, either because IC rules prevent quitting or because of an OOC problem finding someone with the authority to discharge you from the clan.  Add the fear of an unknown play situation to the difficulty getting out if it turns out to be a non-fun role, and the reluctance to join a clan is perfectly logical.

Being in a house should be a matter of prestige and should carry with that honor a sense of security that the rest of the filth-scrounging commoners can only dream of.  Instead it is the other way around.  If you want financial freedom, don't join a clan.  Completely the opposite of what you would expect from a barren wasteland.

Joining a clan does give you prestige and security.

Not joining a clan gives you freedom, including financial freedom.

I don't see where the conflict is.  One gives you security, the other gives you freedom.


Prestige and respect can't be hard-coded, that is simply a matter of roleplay.  They have nothing to do with money.

The economic situation in Armageddon is as big a problem to me as if the majority of PCs were magickers.

I wouldn't consider that a major problem either, just an exploration of a different aspect of the world.

I guess we just have a different idea of what constitutes a major problem.  To me a major problem renders the game unplayable, so I don't play it, and I haven't seen any problems like that in Armageddon.

But don't let me stop you from labelling contrary viewpoints as people just liking to complain

Ah, now I see the problem.  I'm not dissing people with contrary opinions, people that agree with me like to complain too.  As far as I can tell, all people like to complain.  Perhaps it is a failure of immagination, but I am unable to envision any configuration so wonderful that _everyone_ would stop complaining.  Any change would lead to complaining.  Leaving things the same leads to complaining.  Complaining is the national passtime.

Have you ever looked at a trekker discussion group?  Tons of complaining, all by people that claim to be big fans of the franchise.

Life in Canada and the USA is pretty good for the vast majority of people.  Even the poor mostly have running water, something most humans throughout history would have considered a major luxery.  People sometimes go hungry and often don't have access to good food providing complete nutrition, but rarely go without food enough to actually starve to death.  There is some crime, but your chance of dieing due to crime is really pretty low.  Most people die old and fat.  There is occasional acts of terrorism, but there hasn't been a war on home territory in living memory, and having a war in your town is quite a bit worse than having some guys from your town go to war somewhere else.  Things are pretty good, but you wouldn't guess that from listening to a current affairs  programme or people chatting at a coffee shop.  Having things "pretty good" just gives you more time to complain about the minor imperfections.

Armageddon isn't perfect, but I consider all of the current problems to be minor problems.


AC

[sjanimal]

I think we're kind of arguing about three issues here, and it's getting us side-tracked.  This is probably my fault more than anything else, so I'm going to be the one to split the thread into three new threads.

[Dan]

I skipped a few posts, but this is my proposal-

Since most are arguing the price of things and that some PC's happen to have -alot- of money why not have Nenyuk charge to keep your money safe? The more coin they have to protect the more they take from it every month. I guarantee that people will not just start carrying their coins around becuase if you've ever picked up over 5000 coins in the game you know that they can get really heavy, really fast. These rich commoners will still have to bank their coin, but it will cost you to keep it all safe. Mayby something like this-

0-500 = 0% - No cost to have this in the bank.

500-1000 = 15% - Every game month 15% is taken out to ensure that Neyuki guards are being paid.

1000-3000 = 25% - Same as above.

3000-5000 = 35% - etc...

This will encourage people to not concentrate on saving coin so much anymore, or they will end up leaving it in bags in their apartments. Giving burglers something to carry out aside from all the furniture. Im sure if you think about it some you'll see the possibilities with this. Just an idea afterall.

[Carnage]

Any comments or criticisms are welcome. If flames start, I swear I will ask for this
thread to be locked.

OH SHIT KEEP IT DOWN PEOPLE!

[Anonymous]

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.

Money has very little to do with with the lack of demand for those jobs.  This is a game, I play a game to have fun.

Money = survival.  If it wasn't so easy to survive outside a clan then clans wouldn't be going around begging for employees.  More folks would be clamoring to get a position in a clan.

It is a roleplaying game, which means I have to realistically play my role, so I have to be very carefull OOCly to choose a role that I will enjoy.  Most clans have pefectly reasonable restrictions that have the potential to feel like a staight-jacket, and there is no way to know what it will be like until after you join.  Most clans are very hard to leave, either because IC rules prevent quitting or because of an OOC problem finding someone with the authority to discharge you from the clan.  Add the fear of an unknown play situation to the difficulty getting out if it turns out to be a non-fun role, and the reluctance to join a clan is perfectly logical.

You are preaching to the choir.   I do not have some desire to funnel everyone into a clan.  I just believe that the economic situation makes playing an independent PC easier and without any of the drawbacks.  My next PC will be independent.  For the last year or so I've been playing my first clanned PC in well over 20 PCs.  My issues with the economy and independents aren't something I bring up as an ulterior motive to get everyone into clans.  Just make it harder to survive on your own so people actually consider the other option.

Joining a clan does give you prestige and security.

Not joining a clan gives you freedom, including financial freedom.

By security I mean "I know I'll be able to eat tomorrow".  Something which financial freedom gives you.  I don't know about the prestige part, really.  It has not been my viewpoint that commoners view people in a clan as having achieved anything of note until they are sufficiently advanced.

In my mind someone walking around with a clan cloak on should be the envy of other commoners, not someone other people are glad they aren't.

I don't see where the conflict is.  One gives you security, the other gives you freedom.

In a nutshell it's because joining a clan is not in your PC's best interests.  There is no reason to join a clan and incur the restrictions on your PC when you can do much better by yourself and you are only sacrificing a modicum of physical security, assuming you get along with your clanmates.

Prestige and respect can't be hard-coded, that is simply a matter of roleplay.  They have nothing to do with money.

Obviously, but if those jobs are hard to come by the respect and prestige they will offer becomes automatic.

Armageddon isn't perfect, but I consider all of the current problems to be minor problems.

Sure, but that doesn't preclude me from discussing them nor does it mean that an attempt at stating a point of view should be summarily dismissed as 'just complaining'.

[Lazloth]

Since most are arguing the price of things and that some PC's happen to have -alot- of money why not have Nenyuk charge to keep your money safe?

(BTW, a simpler model would be in charging interest per withdrawal.  Nothing needs to be calculated monthly, etc.)   What does this net you, incidentally?  There will be a bigger "drain" in the faucet economy, but again the problems that make money-making in Arm so incredibly trivial will continue to exist.

imho..
Overlumbering should impact wooded areas across reboots.
Overhunting should affect the local wildlife populations.
Market availability on generic items should deplete over the week to emulate the virtual population.
All equipment should degrade based on use (or age?).
etc

[X-D]

Yes, it is relatively easy for an experienced independant to make a lot of money. So what? It usually leads to death or boredom within a few weeks. Even if you have a stupid goal like a silk outfit or a matched set of razor wristwraps and anakore gloves, you will eventually reach that goal and then what? Sooner or later the aquisition of wealth stops being a motivating goal for a PC. You have the items you wanted and a comfortable amount of money in the bank, so cranking out spiral-carved incense burners loses its appeal. You don't want to keep foraging for stones anymore, because you have too much to lose now. So maybe you start paying other PCs to bring you stones, which leads to interaction. Or you've killed hundreds of duskhorn and it is really starting to get old, so you become a consultant teaching recruits of certain organizations the way of the land, you still aren't a full member of that clan but you are interacting with them. A long-lived independant tends to get entangled with other PCs, it just takes a little longer.

This is another thing I had meant to bring up.

First, I swear I've seen posts before on the gdb from the same people complaining about indy chars also complaining there are not enough small clans, peasent clans and player run clans. Well, indy chars is how those clans get started, make it harder to be indy and getting them started will not happen at all, it is hard enough as it is.

VERY few independant chars manage to live even 5 IC years, less then 1 in 100 I'm betting make it 10 IC years. Now, of the ones that do, in my experiance 100% of them try to start a clan or business of somesort, they provide interaction and employment for other chars, something new in game, temp maybe, but in even rarer cases the group or clan manages to live on beyond the char that started it. And so, the game has been added to.

Actually, what I've found as a problem with clans is that the clan leaders are TOO worried about recruiting quickly, this is why they get this scoop up everyone attutude...BAH. I had a reasonably well known PC in a well known clan about a year or two ago, he actually had to fight with the higher clan leaders to recruit slower, to actually be picky. The point to that is, the ones that he recruited and trained actually helped keep the clan stable long after he was no more, it is nice to come back with a diff char 15-25 ic years later and still still see 3-4 of the chars mine recruited, still alive and running the clan.

Compatition to get into clans should be made on the CLAN side, if every clan leader player set strict standards of recruitment, on what the clan is all about and what people would fit and increase prestige of the clan, the number of unclanned would grow and clan jobs would become sought after. And don't be afraid to boot chars out either, this is something else I see, the char I was talking about had to also FIGHT to get chars released who turned out to not fit, in one case another higher clan leader re-hired two chars, one of which later had to be killed and another released yet again.

Myself, I've only played 1 char, out of many where money was an actual issue when joining a clan.

(EDIT)
Also, at the time of this posting, 59 votes on the clan poll, 14 of which are not clanned, 45 are, possibly the scoop up everyone is needed because TOO MANY people are clanned...out of the maybe 7 indy chars I know, maybe 2 could be considered rich, I know of another 5 that are FAR from that. And again, when taking total world pop into account, 2 people out of over a million...come on now, stop complaining about commoners and money...besides, if you are, remember how wealthy the great merchant houses are, and they are ALL commoners.

[Linedel]

Regarding obsidian.

This game isn't about killing shit and getting rich... you can play it that way, sure... but you'll miss out.  If people want to play that way - let them.  Eventually, they'll die with a bunch of 'sid in the bank, and the 'sid dies with them.

The game is actually about plot.  Story.  Roleplaying is like writing a book, only, there are many people writing the story, not just one.

Having obsidian capable of being made is good - it enables informal (non immortal driven) plot.  If some commoner collects 20k obsidian, and wants to start some absurd plot to start a cilops farm, with half a dozen paid PCs from his savings - well, that's GOOD, not bad, 'cause it gives something weird to do to some people.

Granted, I've only played for 2-3 months since returning...  but I don't see a problem at the moment.

[Anonymous]

This game isn't about killing shit and getting rich... you can play it that way, sure... but you'll miss out.  If people want to play that way - let them.  Eventually, they'll die with a bunch of 'sid in the bank, and the 'sid dies with them.

Can everyone please stop hopping in to inform the unwashed masses that this is a roleplaying game?  I think a large percentage of posters in this thread have gotten the idea.  Nobody in this thread has expressed anything to the extent of jealousy or a desire to stop others from getting all the phat lewtz.

One of the facets of this roleplaying game is realism.  While not the most important facet it is, nonetheless, still important to immersion and roleplaying in general.  A reasonable and somewhat realistic implementation of economy is important to realism and playability both.  And it has nothing to do with 'OMG WHO HAS THE MOST' but with the effects on the game's harsh edge.  If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge.  If survival outside of a clan is just as easy as being in one but you don't have to deal with the rules, then clan membership will suffer.  If clanners and non-clanners alike are all getting rich then there isn't enough of a deliniation between the haves and the have nots, something important to a low fantasy game set in a barren wasteland filled with squalor and starvation.

Let me reiterate because this same sentiment quoted above has been reiterated a frustrating number of times:  It's not about who has the most, it's about the effects of an excess of currency on roleplay.

[Agent_137]

It's starting to look like everyone's running in circles, now. I'm done with this thread.


Just thought you should know.  :wink:

[X-D]

If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge. If survival outside of a clan is just as easy as being in one but you don't have to deal with the rules, then clan membership will suffer.

65 votes in now, 15 non-clanned, 50 clanned. Seems like currently there is not a problem with clan membership. Either you are mistaken on what will make clan membership suffer (and I think most of you are) or there is no problem with the amount of money and how hard it is to keep an iso going.

Really, I think ALL these threads on money/economy/clans/indy should be tabled. The stats are not bearing out the complaints.

Pretty sure there are more open coded clans now then ever before, quite a few non-coded clans and I don't think any of the open clans are without membership. some of the indi chars might be rich, but from the looks of it, it is because they have no compatition, with that few people hunting and crafting indy, OF COURSE THEY GET RICH!

Grin..Heh. Table these, there is no problem.

[Linedel]

And it has nothing to do with 'OMG WHO HAS THE MOST' but with the effects on the game's harsh edge. If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge.

Personally, I'm seeing a reasonable amount of character turnover within a clan, I don't see a "harsh edge" problem.  (Again, limited time sample.)

Too much "harsh", and you get all non city PCs living 3 days, and unable to develop any plot.  Pointless.  What percentage of times should people die if they leave the city?  50%?  20%?

If you design this "harsh" to give a 20 day character a 10% chance of death.. what happens to the rest?

Personally, I'd rather see characters a few times than a fragfest resulting in seeing any but a few PCs only once.  If I wanted a fragfest instead of intelligent character interaction, I'd have gone and bought Lineage or DAoC instead of returning to Armageddon.

The world already kills the uncareful.  The careful live a while.. get involved in something, and eventually get killed by something interesting.  That isn't a bad thing.  Personally, I'd wager that's a lot closer to the game's charter (and a lot more interesting) than people chain dying to uncontrolled NPCs or to thirst.  Forcing people to chain fight (and die to) uncontrolled NPCs because of a thirst drive isn't "harsh" either.  Or if it is.. it's an un-interesting type of "harsh."

A few people having thousands of 'sid doesn't make the game "easier".  Permanent death, on it's own, is enough "harsh," that almost no other game succeeds at.

If you want to talk realism.. I can go down a list of things that make a bigger joke out of "realism" (highly overrated in any game) than the economy.  If nobles are offended by commoners wearing silk - demand that they give it to you, immediately.  Spare pants or not, having a templar arrest them for indecent exposure directly afterwards.  Problem solved.

Changing the economy won't change "harshness".  It will just change style... allowing obsidian to flow gives more flexibility to players to influence a larger segment of the game directly than forcing them to groups where only a few are capable of large scale things (have the rank to do so).

If characters are forced to spend all their time/resources just on tedious tasks for survival, when will they have time for plot?  

I argue that unless the "economy" isn't redone from scratch, effectively removing it for "survival" purposes, or completely separating the "survival" and "leisure" economies (harsh vs. noble), perhaps adding a second type of (rare) coin, that it won't change anything but the exact numbers.

Plenty of online games (roleplaying or otherwise, small and large player counts) have tried to change their economy, with basically no effect but inflation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you design this "harsh" to give a 20 day character a 10% chance of death.. what happens to the rest?

But you have just answered the entire quandry, for now folks will look to that 20 day old character for guidance, as they should, and there will be PC INTERACTION, on a level that it should be ... against the world.

[X-D]

But you have just answered the entire quandry, for now folks will look to that 20 day old character for guidance, as they should, and there will be PC INTERACTION, on a level that it should be ... against the world.

Which is how it is already.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Which is how it is already.

Where? On Harshlands? No, my friend, it's not. Certian areas of the game are not well done in terms of balance, and others are overdone. A certian newbie once walked from Tuluk to Allanak, walked I say, and didn't get into one mishap. This was when there may have been 10 people on, no one to clear the roads, and she was a MERCHANT!

I have gone on rides and seen nothing for a whole RL hour. I shouldn't have to hunt for predators. They should hunt for me.

You see, my point is that folks should want to join clans, both ICly and OOCly. It should be a desire. FOr that to happen, we need to fix clans, and, we need to fix the wilderness. WIthout both of these things being fixed, it will go on just exactly as it is now, which is not totally bad, but it just is not as dangerous as it used to be. The desert should really try to kill you. And I mean that in oh-such a literal way.

[Forest Junkie]

Evil critters seem to have no problem finding me 7DV.

I think the desert is fine as is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You're adventuring. I mean that the Roads should be dangerous too. I remember when the gortok roamed the roads near Tuluk. Now -there- were some tense moment. I liked that. I miss that.

[Cowboy]

Sometimes I wonder if I am playing the same "Armageddon" as many of of the GHB posters are playing.  Yes, I once took a brand new character and relocated from Tuluk to Allanak.  Poor riding skill and all. it was exciting and great fun, and I saw, ran from and otherwise avoided many breasts and even saw a PC or two.  If your "Armageddon" isn't harsh enough or you're too rich or whatever, come on over to my "Armageddon," I got all the harshness I can stand and never seem to have enough sids.  My "Armageddon" also has intrigues, plots, jobs and all kinds of interactions with clans, independants and too many other things to talk about.  You hvae to love a game that can be so many different things to many different people.

[Forest Junkie]

You're adventuring. I mean that the Roads should be dangerous too. I remember when the gortok roamed the roads near Tuluk. Now -there- were some tense moment. I liked that. I miss that.

You are correct, but think back a bit.

I remember when the gortok roamed the North Road. What happened? Everyone went out and hunted them. They slaughtered them, left mangled parts everywhere. Nothing was used for sustenance. Meat, hide, or bone. Everything was left in their act of carnage.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The gortok were overhunted, therefore they retreated deeper into the scrub. This is not the staff's fault, trying to make the game easier. This is the fault of players overhunting, simply. (And players whom were "protecting" Gol Krathu from invading dogs.)

[spawnloser]

avoided many breasts and even saw a PC or two.

Well, since you were avoiding breasts, I'm sure you didn't get any mudsex from these PCs, unless your character was a bit swishy.  :twisted:

Still, I gotta agree with V.  A friend of mine played the game for a while before he got too busy in RL.  He played a merchant...that rode a kank anywhere he wanted in the world.  People thought he was a mercenary.  Oh no, he was a merchant/nomad.  Never got jumped once and knew the way from Allanak to Luir's to Tuluk and back like the back of his hand.  It was ridiculous.  If you ask me, we should have more predators out there...with fewer skinnables from them, as leaving that alone would further flood the market with animal pieces.

[Anonymous]

If you ask me, we should have more predators out there...with fewer skinnables from them, as leaving that alone would further flood the market with animal pieces.

Just don't change Red Storm.  I lost one of my best statted PC's ever there running from a train of beetles, siltflyers, scrab and spiders (some hopped off along the way while others hopped on)  into the pitch black where a silt horror got me.  Last I knew it had gotten toned down a little.  Please don't slap another half dozen whatchamacallits back there.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you ask me, we should have more predators out there...with fewer skinnables from them, as leaving that alone would further flood the market with animal pieces.

Just don't change Red Storm.  I lost one of my best statted PC's ever there running from a train of beetles, siltflyers, scrab and spiders (some hopped off along the way while others hopped on)  into the pitch black where a silt horror got me.  Last I knew it had gotten toned down a little.  Please don't slap another half dozen whatchamacallits back there.

Red Storm has always been incredibly visious. I like the way it is now, I think. But my irritation has not been with Red Storm and its enviro. It has been with Tuluk and Allanak. My main concern is not one of seeing the world become an H&S trip from point to point, but rather, an enviro that strongly encourages clan membership. Not just coded clan, but groups of PCs.

For this to happen, not only does the enviro need to be adjusted to a good blanace, but also, clans have got to be reformatted to provide the PC entertainment. Good leaders must be chosen, good tasks assigned, fun. In short, the entire thing is about fun. S'why it's called a game.

Make players want to be in a clan, and ssuddenly, you have a whole new ballgame.

[marko]

Make players want to be in a clan, and ssuddenly, you have a whole new ballgame.

Forgive me for this Venomz.

In a recent poll (done by yours truly because he was curious) 51 out of 66 respondants stated they are in a clan.

Since that makes 77% of those responding in clans one has to assume that players already want to be in clans.  After all, no one forces them to join.  Since they are joining that means people like clans.

A minority may not like clans and that is fine.  It is always good to have a balance.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No forgiveness nessessary.

I don't believe that everyone who plays this game reads the GBD. In fact, the ones most likely to read the GBD are those who wish to check their clan forums for information and RPTs.

Additionally, I never said that there were more independants than clanned PCs.

And thirdly, I am not annoyed by those who wish to be independants. They put the twist in the game, by all means. I simply wish to see House jobs become more desirable. Thus, I am presenting ways to acheive that.

One might look upon the current situation and realize that some folks join Houses because they don't have the time they need to play an independant. ANd yet how many of these folks you polled have something bad to say about their house, their clan?


Maybe I should say it this way: I want to make clans more enjoyable and prestigous. I do not want to do away with the loners and independants. I wish this game was more friendly to them without losing it's harshness. But a CLAN JOB SHOULD BE SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO BOTH ICLY AND OOCLY! Maybe that's what I am trying to say.

[jstorrie]

I remember when the gortok roamed the North Road. What happened? Everyone went out and hunted them. They slaughtered them, left mangled parts everywhere. Nothing was used for sustenance. Meat, hide, or bone. Everything was left in their act of carnage.

From help gortok:

These fierce canines roam the Northands in packs, creating a decided danger for unwary travelers. Their howling echoes through the Grey Forest. Their hides are generally considered worthless, and hence they are despised by most.

Gortoks are a bit like Earth coyotes.  You don't hunt them for meat or sustenance, you hunt them when there are too many and they need to be 'cleaned out'.  I don't think the PCs were acting unrealistically by simply slaughtering the things and leaving them to rot.

[jhunter]

You're adventuring. I mean that the Roads should be dangerous too. I remember when the gortok roamed the roads near Tuluk. Now -there- were some tense moment. I liked that. I miss that.

Yeah, I remember when you had to be in fear of that big motherfucking pack of 'toks mobbing you on the roads...same with tembo...not packs of them, but you used to see them alot more near the roadways.
I think the south needed toning down a bit and I think they did just fine with it...but I think the north should've been left alone.
Used to see alot more critters along the roads period.

[Forest Junkie]

From help gortok:

These fierce canines roam the Northands in packs, creating a decided danger for unwary travelers. Their howling echoes through the Grey Forest. Their hides are generally considered worthless, and hence they are despised by most.

Gortoks are a bit like Earth coyotes.  You don't hunt them for meat or sustenance, you hunt them when there are too many and they need to be 'cleaned out'.  I don't think the PCs were acting unrealistically by simply slaughtering the things and leaving them to rot.

*Shrug*

I don't think the players were acting all that unrealistically either. That doesn't change the fact that they overhunted the gortok. Hence, the population was lowered to reflect this IC action.

I merely say don't blame the staff for making it too easy. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

And yes, my nasty ass -does- eat those doggies. A bit tough and stringy, but good.

[My 2 sids]

I'd like to see an economy where the basics are affordable and luxury is expensive.  I believe, if they want to, almost all PCs should be able to afford decent housing, food, clothing, and water.  Just because the majority of Zalanthas is poor, doesn't mean that PCs should be forced to being poor.  By offering the basics affordable PCs will have more of their starting money to use to build up skills to a point they can actually turn a profit if they want.  I believe having enough starting money will provide a way for more PCs to become independent if they wish, giving them enough time to build their skills into profitable business, as well as not frighten off so many new players.