Commoners and Money

[Delirium]

A responsibly played indie often just scrapes by, though it does get easier and easier to live the better they get at their given profession - however, if something were to happen to them, they have nothing to fall back on but the good will of other characters and their own grit and ability to pull their lives back together and make something out of nothing.

Please don't 'funnel' people into clans, or 'force' them to join. Some people simply do not enjoy playing in a clan environment, and some people are playing characters who would not realistically join a clan, whether due to racial or background or a combination of both reasons.

I'm all for making it more difficult, though I challenge anyone to survive mainly outside the cities, not inside them (i.e. tavern sitting every night, running out at dawn to and rape the landscape of all easily gatherable items in the span of an IC day and hunt every last thing they see, then hop back into town to lounge about in the bar again), and then say if they make "a ludicrous amount of money".

[Bushranger]

A responsibly played indie often just scrapes by, though it does get easier and easier to live the better they get at their given profession - however, if something were to happen to them, they have nothing to fall back on but the good will of other characters and their own grit and ability to pull their lives back together and make something out of nothing.

This has happened to me several times. My in game personality seems to be doing well but then a fine paid to a templar for some slight, a stolen kank loaded with possessions or some other catastrophe has caused them ruin and, in some cases, death. This is the price one pays for playing an independent.

What is the real problem here though, that house guards and other clan employees get paid too much money? First, and the documents state this, house guards are a highly desirable position because they DO pay a lot more than other jobs. I firmly believe house guards should be getting the wages they currently are. Secondly skilled crafters have always held a high position in society through-out civilisation.

Now to the fact that independents have too much money I don't know if this is a problem or not so I won't comment upon that, instead I'll think it over.

One thing I will say, if people who sat in a tavern ALL night talking would drink more than one cup (mouthful?) of ale or wine we really wouldn't be having this problem.

Bushranger

[Marc]

Problem:  Armageddon's economy is whack.  The economy is the root in 90% of the above stated problems and if it was corrected they would work themselves out.

As it stands a commoner can get an insane amount of obsidian relatively easy.  With that money (s)he can buy all the silk (s)he wants, bribe all the officals he wants, and hire all the talent he wants.  And as Lazloth touched on above, the game will do little to nothing to stop any particular money making scheme.  When an imm does notice the end solution rarely does much to stop it (the massive logging along the scaien wall a couple/few years back, the spear trade at one point, a certain knife to a certain market etc etc).

If we want to 'solve' the successful independant problem, we have to cut back on money everywhere.  Resale should be dropped to pennies (figuratively speaking) on even mid-quality gear, not just gith equipment.  

Crafting needs to be overhauled, starting with value and then end results.  Nearly every single craft skill includes a ridiculous recipe, most many more than one.  Something that is so over valued and easy to make that for a character to make anything else would be self defeating.  It would be nice if most recipes had varying results depending on success ie. if you're good at making bone longswords, your longswords will be more impressive then someone who just started, but unless they really screw up they will also succeed in making a longsword, albiet a shabby one.

I'm rambling.

All in all automated obsidian needs to be severly restricted (npc merchants etc) and the price of necessities (water, ale, food) reduced similarly.

Crafting should be profitable from the start, but very moderataly so (enough to buy the cheaper food/water).  Master craftsmen should be good enough to become wealthy, but not tens of thousands of sid each boot.  Hell, not even thousands of sid.

It would be nice to see this with a new character:
>inventory
>In inventory:
>105 obsidian coins
>
>list
>The merchant has the following goods to trade:
>01) a cup of water for 3 obsidian coins.
>02) a loaf of bread for 4 obsidian coins.
>03) a sandcloth shirt for 10 obsidian coins.
>04) a curved obsidian sword for 40 obsidian coins.
>05) a dress of purple silk for 800 coins.

Actually make common possessions easily affordable by anyone, but the silks and nice armor out of reach for anyone but the successful.

This would take so much work I would hate to even imagine, but without a total overhaul, arms economy will continue to breed inconsistancies in the world and docs.

[Bushranger]

I believe even with a full overhaul armageddons economy will still have many bugs waiting to be found. I think everyone needs to remember that this is a game and code can not take everything into account. A lot of the economy just isn't coded nor should it be coded. There are hundreds of thousands of VNPCs all over the world who would all affect the economy and no code is perfect.

Even if we could overhaul the economy code so it was perfect then what? Soon more things will filter into the code, more recipes will be added and new bugs will pop up (Look at quivers and sheaths just now) and will again need another overhaul in a few years as people again find new ways of tricking the system into giving them tens of thousands of 'sids.

What is the solution here then? I can only suggest that what is happening now continue in the future. If you find that selling a bone longsword to the super sekrit merchant in the second hidden room of Steinal will result in a profit of a million 'sids then bug it. Players can also JUNK items and coins as they give it to their VNPC families or bail out their VNPC friends.

Thats right, players themselves can remedy the situation by simply not hoarding. I know many don't want to do this, they want the imms to code something to solve the problems, but if we can change player behaviour then I think that the economy problem will not be so great and imms will be able to patch only those places that need attention.

Don't think it can be done? We've done it before. Who else remembers hanging in Flint's with Mantis and Halflings and Defilers and Blackwing with bowed legs from so much riding?

Bushranger - who still has faith that players can make the right choices.

[X-D]

The funny thing is, (and I do not think there is a problem, being of the PC's are notables of a peer group camp) Every solution brought up so far would cause other things to happen that probly the same people would be complaining about. One is, I'm SURE the pk rate would skyrocket, hell, I know I would be killing many more PC's.

An actual variable and dynamic econimy would be great, but a HUGE amount of work.

Me, I'd like it to be more based on PC's, get rid of every item above ave in EVERY npc shop, and I mean every one of them, Except a few npc shops of each of the 3 merchant houses, and these shops should have NOTHING that loads on a boot, but must be stocked and will only buy from PC's of that clan. Put in some shops that anybody can sell to but also do not load anything on a boot, lower the prices raw material npc dealers pay but keep the selling price the same. This would mean that the "good" items have to be PC made and the hunters would be more willing to search out the PC crafters to sell materials. Indy chars would have to work MUCH harder to make cash, not much harder to survive, food and water availability is good as it is...Oh, and the same goes for the food venders, nothing on a boot except for maybe flour and some old meat, though they will buy food and sell what they have bought.


The craftable items numbers have reached what I think is a high enough percentage to allow this sort of system, though barely.

This system would make clan positions more desired, that offer of free food and water would look damm good, and 300 sid a month free and clear with no expenses a hefty chunk of money allowing the pc house guard to be able to buy the nice stuff. While making the indy role more of a challenge but still playable and fun.

[Bushranger]

The funny thing is, (and I do not think there is a problem, being of the PC's are notables of a peer group camp) Every solution brought up so far would cause other things to happen that probly the same people would be complaining about. One is, I'm SURE the pk rate would skyrocket, hell, I know I would be killing many more PC's.

An actual variable and dynamic econimy would be great, but a HUGE amount of work.

Exactly my point X-D.

I also agree that the solution needs to be more PC driven than a coded system. However I am very much in favour of a set of rooms for the major merchant houses that are stocked by certain clan members as you suggested. Perhaps even have a special room for nobles and the like that is guarded much as the Trader's Tavern is in Allanak that would sell their top merchandise.

[spawnloser]

Do it.  I want more PK.  I have played a character for about a year that SO should have been PK'd with all the people that were pissed off at it.  Nope.  Not even a single PK attempt by another player.  An IMM animated character attacked him once, but that was more for the theatrics, so I don't count it.  I say overhaul it and let the player tension rise along with it.  People play characters that should realistically consider killing someone, but don't because there's no reason to take a risk.  Give them a reason, let's go.  There should be a reason to take a risk, your life.  I'm waiting.

[Anonymous]

Please don't 'funnel' people into clans, or 'force' them to join. Some people simply do not enjoy playing in a clan environment, and some people are playing characters who would not realistically join a clan, whether due to racial or background or a combination of both reasons.

I generally hate being in a clan.  I far prefer being an indy.  But the way it is right now there are many more cons to being in a clan from a pragmatic standpoint than there is in playing an idependent.  This is contrary to how I feel it should be.  That is all I'm getting at.  With clans you have a limitation on your movements and an enforced schedule of sorts that is generally strict and forces specific activities on you.  There needs to be more of a reason to endure that other than just the promise of the occaisional clan RPT (which come in varying degrees depending on the clan) and the supply of food.  And based on the observations of the original poster (that I agree with) I think that the best reason for people to join a clan is to make life in general for commoners a more realistic economic hardship.

In most clans you earn 150 coins a RL week now.  Even a responsibly played Indy is going to do much better than that in a RL week including paying for food and water.  And they do it all without having to go to sparring practice, instead being able to choose the day's activities or interactions.

On the flip side, I'd much rather play my indys so that their goals, until they become uber, all have to do with survival and not getting razor crotch wraps and wrist strapped crossbows.  It's more compelling to me and more engrossing.

[Angela Christine]

This thread is a tempest in a teapot.  There is no problem, or at least no serious problem.  There are some minor irregularities, that do not prevent you from playing the the kind of role you want to play.  The irregularities may allow other people to play roles you don't want THEM to play, but that really isn't your buisness.

***

Funnel people into clans?  Why?  Sure, most clan jobs are highly desirable ICly, I think that everyone understands that.  So what?  Some people in our world would rather be an independant entrepenure than join House IBM, House McDonalds or the Mafia.  Go figure.  In Zalanthas (like in RL) most people take a job with a big organization either because it is desirable or because they are afraid of going it alone, and the VNPC population reflects what "most" people are doing.  The PC population is not a proportional representation of the population in general, and won't be until half of all PCs are slaves.  Yeah, right.

***

Like Delerium and Bushranger I have had an indie totally wiped out by one misfortune.  I had a RANGER die of dehydration after a robery (she lost her kank, her bow, her pack full of stuff, boots, cloak, basically she was worse of than an newbie financially).  Ok, if she had handled it differently she could have lived.  If she had tried to raise money by foraging for roots instead of digging for clay she probably would have made it, but she was afraid to leave the city without a kank.  It is very easy for and independant, even a prosperous and somewhat skilled independant, to get wiped out.  A clannie just has to hang in until his next payday.

***

If I get into a clan, I want it to mean something.  I've almost entirely given up playing "ordinary" humans because I want to avoid the scoop-up-everything-that-breathes recruiters.  If I play a c-elf, halfelf, rinther or freak then I will have to work hard and prove myself to get into most clans, so getting into the clan and staying there is an accomplishment.  Cripes, I've had a character turned away from the Byn!  Now that's satisfying.  An ordinary human that wants to join a noble house -- blah.  The hardest part is finding the recruiter.  But a half-elf or 'rinther that dreams of going to the Tor Academny, well, that is a challenge.  A Challenge is fun.  

***

Yes, it is relatively easy for an experienced independant to make a lot of money.  So what?  It usually leads to death or boredom within a few weeks.  Even if you have a stupid goal like a silk outfit or a matched set of razor wristwraps and anakore gloves, you will eventually reach that goal and then what?  Sooner or later the aquisition of wealth stops being a motivating goal for a PC.  You have the items you wanted and a comfortable amount of money in the bank, so cranking out spiral-carved incense burners loses its appeal.  You don't want to keep foraging for stones anymore, because you have too much to lose now.  So maybe you start paying other PCs to bring you stones, which leads to interaction.  Or you've killed hundreds of duskhorn and it is really starting to get old, so you become a consultant teaching recruits of certain organizations the way of the land, you still aren't a full member of that clan but you are interacting with them.  A long-lived independant tends to get entangled with other PCs, it just takes a little longer.  

***

The fastest road to wealth is over the bodies of others.  Seriously.  Most of my independants that have gotten "rich" with unseamly haste got there by finding corpses.  A couple dead newbies can ruin your whole "struggling commoner" concept.  :twisted:  I've designed characters with an un-Zalanthan distaste for touching corpses just to avoid this, at times when I've really wanted a chracacter to struggle.

***

There are a lot of minor problems, but they don't add up to a major problem.  People just like to complain.

Tempest in a teapot.


AC

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of minor problems, but they don't add up to a major problem.  People just like to complain.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was misinformed as to the nature my own opinions.

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.  Being in a house should be a matter of prestige and should carry with that honor a sense of security that the rest of the filth-scrounging commoners can only dream of.  Instead it is the other way around.  If you want financial freedom, don't join a clan.  Completely the opposite of what you would expect from a barren wasteland.

The economic situation in Armageddon is as big a problem to me as if the majority of PCs were magickers.

But don't let me stop you from labelling contrary viewpoints as people just liking to complain and I'll go on believing I actually feel this way.

[Angela Christine]

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.

Money has very little to do with with the lack of demand for those jobs.  This is a game, I play a game to have fun.  It is a roleplaying game, which means I have to realistically play my role, so I have to be very carefull OOCly to choose a role that I will enjoy.  Most clans have pefectly reasonable restrictions that have the potential to feel like a staight-jacket, and there is no way to know what it will be like until after you join.  Most clans are very hard to leave, either because IC rules prevent quitting or because of an OOC problem finding someone with the authority to discharge you from the clan.  Add the fear of an unknown play situation to the difficulty getting out if it turns out to be a non-fun role, and the reluctance to join a clan is perfectly logical.

Being in a house should be a matter of prestige and should carry with that honor a sense of security that the rest of the filth-scrounging commoners can only dream of.  Instead it is the other way around.  If you want financial freedom, don't join a clan.  Completely the opposite of what you would expect from a barren wasteland.

Joining a clan does give you prestige and security.

Not joining a clan gives you freedom, including financial freedom.

I don't see where the conflict is.  One gives you security, the other gives you freedom.


Prestige and respect can't be hard-coded, that is simply a matter of roleplay.  They have nothing to do with money.

The economic situation in Armageddon is as big a problem to me as if the majority of PCs were magickers.

I wouldn't consider that a major problem either, just an exploration of a different aspect of the world.

I guess we just have a different idea of what constitutes a major problem.  To me a major problem renders the game unplayable, so I don't play it, and I haven't seen any problems like that in Armageddon.

But don't let me stop you from labelling contrary viewpoints as people just liking to complain

Ah, now I see the problem.  I'm not dissing people with contrary opinions, people that agree with me like to complain too.  As far as I can tell, all people like to complain.  Perhaps it is a failure of immagination, but I am unable to envision any configuration so wonderful that _everyone_ would stop complaining.  Any change would lead to complaining.  Leaving things the same leads to complaining.  Complaining is the national passtime.

Have you ever looked at a trekker discussion group?  Tons of complaining, all by people that claim to be big fans of the franchise.

Life in Canada and the USA is pretty good for the vast majority of people.  Even the poor mostly have running water, something most humans throughout history would have considered a major luxery.  People sometimes go hungry and often don't have access to good food providing complete nutrition, but rarely go without food enough to actually starve to death.  There is some crime, but your chance of dieing due to crime is really pretty low.  Most people die old and fat.  There is occasional acts of terrorism, but there hasn't been a war on home territory in living memory, and having a war in your town is quite a bit worse than having some guys from your town go to war somewhere else.  Things are pretty good, but you wouldn't guess that from listening to a current affairs  programme or people chatting at a coffee shop.  Having things "pretty good" just gives you more time to complain about the minor imperfections.

Armageddon isn't perfect, but I consider all of the current problems to be minor problems.


AC

[sjanimal]

I think we're kind of arguing about three issues here, and it's getting us side-tracked.  This is probably my fault more than anything else, so I'm going to be the one to split the thread into three new threads.

[Dan]

I skipped a few posts, but this is my proposal-

Since most are arguing the price of things and that some PC's happen to have -alot- of money why not have Nenyuk charge to keep your money safe? The more coin they have to protect the more they take from it every month. I guarantee that people will not just start carrying their coins around becuase if you've ever picked up over 5000 coins in the game you know that they can get really heavy, really fast. These rich commoners will still have to bank their coin, but it will cost you to keep it all safe. Mayby something like this-

0-500 = 0% - No cost to have this in the bank.

500-1000 = 15% - Every game month 15% is taken out to ensure that Neyuki guards are being paid.

1000-3000 = 25% - Same as above.

3000-5000 = 35% - etc...

This will encourage people to not concentrate on saving coin so much anymore, or they will end up leaving it in bags in their apartments. Giving burglers something to carry out aside from all the furniture. Im sure if you think about it some you'll see the possibilities with this. Just an idea afterall.

[Carnage]

Any comments or criticisms are welcome. If flames start, I swear I will ask for this
thread to be locked.

OH SHIT KEEP IT DOWN PEOPLE!

[Anonymous]

I do believe it is a major problem if for no other reason than with the money independent clanners can make there is a lack of impetus which results in the sort of 'scoop up any human that breaths' recruiting that you mentioned because there is no demand for house jobs.

Money has very little to do with with the lack of demand for those jobs.  This is a game, I play a game to have fun.

Money = survival.  If it wasn't so easy to survive outside a clan then clans wouldn't be going around begging for employees.  More folks would be clamoring to get a position in a clan.

It is a roleplaying game, which means I have to realistically play my role, so I have to be very carefull OOCly to choose a role that I will enjoy.  Most clans have pefectly reasonable restrictions that have the potential to feel like a staight-jacket, and there is no way to know what it will be like until after you join.  Most clans are very hard to leave, either because IC rules prevent quitting or because of an OOC problem finding someone with the authority to discharge you from the clan.  Add the fear of an unknown play situation to the difficulty getting out if it turns out to be a non-fun role, and the reluctance to join a clan is perfectly logical.

You are preaching to the choir.   I do not have some desire to funnel everyone into a clan.  I just believe that the economic situation makes playing an independent PC easier and without any of the drawbacks.  My next PC will be independent.  For the last year or so I've been playing my first clanned PC in well over 20 PCs.  My issues with the economy and independents aren't something I bring up as an ulterior motive to get everyone into clans.  Just make it harder to survive on your own so people actually consider the other option.

Joining a clan does give you prestige and security.

Not joining a clan gives you freedom, including financial freedom.

By security I mean "I know I'll be able to eat tomorrow".  Something which financial freedom gives you.  I don't know about the prestige part, really.  It has not been my viewpoint that commoners view people in a clan as having achieved anything of note until they are sufficiently advanced.

In my mind someone walking around with a clan cloak on should be the envy of other commoners, not someone other people are glad they aren't.

I don't see where the conflict is.  One gives you security, the other gives you freedom.

In a nutshell it's because joining a clan is not in your PC's best interests.  There is no reason to join a clan and incur the restrictions on your PC when you can do much better by yourself and you are only sacrificing a modicum of physical security, assuming you get along with your clanmates.

Prestige and respect can't be hard-coded, that is simply a matter of roleplay.  They have nothing to do with money.

Obviously, but if those jobs are hard to come by the respect and prestige they will offer becomes automatic.

Armageddon isn't perfect, but I consider all of the current problems to be minor problems.

Sure, but that doesn't preclude me from discussing them nor does it mean that an attempt at stating a point of view should be summarily dismissed as 'just complaining'.

[Lazloth]

Since most are arguing the price of things and that some PC's happen to have -alot- of money why not have Nenyuk charge to keep your money safe?

(BTW, a simpler model would be in charging interest per withdrawal.  Nothing needs to be calculated monthly, etc.)   What does this net you, incidentally?  There will be a bigger "drain" in the faucet economy, but again the problems that make money-making in Arm so incredibly trivial will continue to exist.

imho..
Overlumbering should impact wooded areas across reboots.
Overhunting should affect the local wildlife populations.
Market availability on generic items should deplete over the week to emulate the virtual population.
All equipment should degrade based on use (or age?).
etc

[X-D]

Yes, it is relatively easy for an experienced independant to make a lot of money. So what? It usually leads to death or boredom within a few weeks. Even if you have a stupid goal like a silk outfit or a matched set of razor wristwraps and anakore gloves, you will eventually reach that goal and then what? Sooner or later the aquisition of wealth stops being a motivating goal for a PC. You have the items you wanted and a comfortable amount of money in the bank, so cranking out spiral-carved incense burners loses its appeal. You don't want to keep foraging for stones anymore, because you have too much to lose now. So maybe you start paying other PCs to bring you stones, which leads to interaction. Or you've killed hundreds of duskhorn and it is really starting to get old, so you become a consultant teaching recruits of certain organizations the way of the land, you still aren't a full member of that clan but you are interacting with them. A long-lived independant tends to get entangled with other PCs, it just takes a little longer.

This is another thing I had meant to bring up.

First, I swear I've seen posts before on the gdb from the same people complaining about indy chars also complaining there are not enough small clans, peasent clans and player run clans. Well, indy chars is how those clans get started, make it harder to be indy and getting them started will not happen at all, it is hard enough as it is.

VERY few independant chars manage to live even 5 IC years, less then 1 in 100 I'm betting make it 10 IC years. Now, of the ones that do, in my experiance 100% of them try to start a clan or business of somesort, they provide interaction and employment for other chars, something new in game, temp maybe, but in even rarer cases the group or clan manages to live on beyond the char that started it. And so, the game has been added to.

Actually, what I've found as a problem with clans is that the clan leaders are TOO worried about recruiting quickly, this is why they get this scoop up everyone attutude...BAH. I had a reasonably well known PC in a well known clan about a year or two ago, he actually had to fight with the higher clan leaders to recruit slower, to actually be picky. The point to that is, the ones that he recruited and trained actually helped keep the clan stable long after he was no more, it is nice to come back with a diff char 15-25 ic years later and still still see 3-4 of the chars mine recruited, still alive and running the clan.

Compatition to get into clans should be made on the CLAN side, if every clan leader player set strict standards of recruitment, on what the clan is all about and what people would fit and increase prestige of the clan, the number of unclanned would grow and clan jobs would become sought after. And don't be afraid to boot chars out either, this is something else I see, the char I was talking about had to also FIGHT to get chars released who turned out to not fit, in one case another higher clan leader re-hired two chars, one of which later had to be killed and another released yet again.

Myself, I've only played 1 char, out of many where money was an actual issue when joining a clan.

(EDIT)
Also, at the time of this posting, 59 votes on the clan poll, 14 of which are not clanned, 45 are, possibly the scoop up everyone is needed because TOO MANY people are clanned...out of the maybe 7 indy chars I know, maybe 2 could be considered rich, I know of another 5 that are FAR from that. And again, when taking total world pop into account, 2 people out of over a million...come on now, stop complaining about commoners and money...besides, if you are, remember how wealthy the great merchant houses are, and they are ALL commoners.

[Linedel]

Regarding obsidian.

This game isn't about killing shit and getting rich... you can play it that way, sure... but you'll miss out.  If people want to play that way - let them.  Eventually, they'll die with a bunch of 'sid in the bank, and the 'sid dies with them.

The game is actually about plot.  Story.  Roleplaying is like writing a book, only, there are many people writing the story, not just one.

Having obsidian capable of being made is good - it enables informal (non immortal driven) plot.  If some commoner collects 20k obsidian, and wants to start some absurd plot to start a cilops farm, with half a dozen paid PCs from his savings - well, that's GOOD, not bad, 'cause it gives something weird to do to some people.

Granted, I've only played for 2-3 months since returning...  but I don't see a problem at the moment.

[Anonymous]

This game isn't about killing shit and getting rich... you can play it that way, sure... but you'll miss out.  If people want to play that way - let them.  Eventually, they'll die with a bunch of 'sid in the bank, and the 'sid dies with them.

Can everyone please stop hopping in to inform the unwashed masses that this is a roleplaying game?  I think a large percentage of posters in this thread have gotten the idea.  Nobody in this thread has expressed anything to the extent of jealousy or a desire to stop others from getting all the phat lewtz.

One of the facets of this roleplaying game is realism.  While not the most important facet it is, nonetheless, still important to immersion and roleplaying in general.  A reasonable and somewhat realistic implementation of economy is important to realism and playability both.  And it has nothing to do with 'OMG WHO HAS THE MOST' but with the effects on the game's harsh edge.  If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge.  If survival outside of a clan is just as easy as being in one but you don't have to deal with the rules, then clan membership will suffer.  If clanners and non-clanners alike are all getting rich then there isn't enough of a deliniation between the haves and the have nots, something important to a low fantasy game set in a barren wasteland filled with squalor and starvation.

Let me reiterate because this same sentiment quoted above has been reiterated a frustrating number of times:  It's not about who has the most, it's about the effects of an excess of currency on roleplay.

[Agent_137]

It's starting to look like everyone's running in circles, now. I'm done with this thread.


Just thought you should know.  :wink:

[X-D]

If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge. If survival outside of a clan is just as easy as being in one but you don't have to deal with the rules, then clan membership will suffer.

65 votes in now, 15 non-clanned, 50 clanned. Seems like currently there is not a problem with clan membership. Either you are mistaken on what will make clan membership suffer (and I think most of you are) or there is no problem with the amount of money and how hard it is to keep an iso going.

Really, I think ALL these threads on money/economy/clans/indy should be tabled. The stats are not bearing out the complaints.

Pretty sure there are more open coded clans now then ever before, quite a few non-coded clans and I don't think any of the open clans are without membership. some of the indi chars might be rich, but from the looks of it, it is because they have no compatition, with that few people hunting and crafting indy, OF COURSE THEY GET RICH!

Grin..Heh. Table these, there is no problem.

[Linedel]

And it has nothing to do with 'OMG WHO HAS THE MOST' but with the effects on the game's harsh edge. If it is too easy to survive the game loses that edge.

Personally, I'm seeing a reasonable amount of character turnover within a clan, I don't see a "harsh edge" problem.  (Again, limited time sample.)

Too much "harsh", and you get all non city PCs living 3 days, and unable to develop any plot.  Pointless.  What percentage of times should people die if they leave the city?  50%?  20%?

If you design this "harsh" to give a 20 day character a 10% chance of death.. what happens to the rest?

Personally, I'd rather see characters a few times than a fragfest resulting in seeing any but a few PCs only once.  If I wanted a fragfest instead of intelligent character interaction, I'd have gone and bought Lineage or DAoC instead of returning to Armageddon.

The world already kills the uncareful.  The careful live a while.. get involved in something, and eventually get killed by something interesting.  That isn't a bad thing.  Personally, I'd wager that's a lot closer to the game's charter (and a lot more interesting) than people chain dying to uncontrolled NPCs or to thirst.  Forcing people to chain fight (and die to) uncontrolled NPCs because of a thirst drive isn't "harsh" either.  Or if it is.. it's an un-interesting type of "harsh."

A few people having thousands of 'sid doesn't make the game "easier".  Permanent death, on it's own, is enough "harsh," that almost no other game succeeds at.

If you want to talk realism.. I can go down a list of things that make a bigger joke out of "realism" (highly overrated in any game) than the economy.  If nobles are offended by commoners wearing silk - demand that they give it to you, immediately.  Spare pants or not, having a templar arrest them for indecent exposure directly afterwards.  Problem solved.

Changing the economy won't change "harshness".  It will just change style... allowing obsidian to flow gives more flexibility to players to influence a larger segment of the game directly than forcing them to groups where only a few are capable of large scale things (have the rank to do so).

If characters are forced to spend all their time/resources just on tedious tasks for survival, when will they have time for plot?  

I argue that unless the "economy" isn't redone from scratch, effectively removing it for "survival" purposes, or completely separating the "survival" and "leisure" economies (harsh vs. noble), perhaps adding a second type of (rare) coin, that it won't change anything but the exact numbers.

Plenty of online games (roleplaying or otherwise, small and large player counts) have tried to change their economy, with basically no effect but inflation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you design this "harsh" to give a 20 day character a 10% chance of death.. what happens to the rest?

But you have just answered the entire quandry, for now folks will look to that 20 day old character for guidance, as they should, and there will be PC INTERACTION, on a level that it should be ... against the world.

[X-D]

But you have just answered the entire quandry, for now folks will look to that 20 day old character for guidance, as they should, and there will be PC INTERACTION, on a level that it should be ... against the world.

Which is how it is already.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Which is how it is already.

Where? On Harshlands? No, my friend, it's not. Certian areas of the game are not well done in terms of balance, and others are overdone. A certian newbie once walked from Tuluk to Allanak, walked I say, and didn't get into one mishap. This was when there may have been 10 people on, no one to clear the roads, and she was a MERCHANT!

I have gone on rides and seen nothing for a whole RL hour. I shouldn't have to hunt for predators. They should hunt for me.

You see, my point is that folks should want to join clans, both ICly and OOCly. It should be a desire. FOr that to happen, we need to fix clans, and, we need to fix the wilderness. WIthout both of these things being fixed, it will go on just exactly as it is now, which is not totally bad, but it just is not as dangerous as it used to be. The desert should really try to kill you. And I mean that in oh-such a literal way.