Gemmed interaction - a wake up call.

[Pantoufle]

Quoted from the Magicker FAQ:

"Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas."

Yeah dude.  I could probably dig up some minute little snippet from the help files or a document out there stating that elves are shunned and despised and no human organization would ever under any circumstances employ one .. but that sure as shit ain't the case either.

Fact of the matter is, there's tons of little quotes like that out there, some of which even contradict other helpfiles/documents.  On one document it says elves are nomadic and it goes into detail to explain why.  In another, it says "Well, they're not really nomadic, they just look that way to non-elves."  This was probably an addendum added later because people realized making a coded NOMADIC tribe is basically impossible.  I'm exaggerating this for the sake of argument, so please don't throw me quotes from the elven help files saying "Nyah nyah, you're wrong!"  You get the idea.

So what if it says magickers are hated and feared?  I could find you another doc which says Vivadu elementalists are revered and highly sought after too.

I'm not saying we should all blatantly disregard documentation, but you have to take that shit with a grain of salt and translate accordingly.

[Ender]

Generally the feeling in Allanak is that elementalists are the tools of the templarate, and only the bravest, most desperate, or the most foolish of the general populace.

In Allanak I always felt that should the Templarate revoke the Magickers protected status that the general populace of Allanak would rise up in an angry mob slaughtering gemmers left and right.

The general populace is uneducated and superstisious.  They don't know what Magickers are capable of.  Magickers get blamed for everything from disease, infant deaths, to bad weather.  Rumors persist that they have evil rituals where they drink the blood of innocents and eat babies.

This is all ofcourse my opinion.  

And does this assumption make playing a magicker difficult?  Yes, it does.

Does that mean no one should interact with them at all?  No, it doesn't.

Playing a magicker -should- be a challenge.  And if the player is bored by dealing with the fact a lot of people don't want anything to do with them, then perhaps the role isn't the right role for them.

To Bestatte's post below, I agree, but it depends on the personality of the character.   A passive-aggressive person that is deadly afraid of magickers, might do something like that.  

And on the same token some people might get riled up enough to do something if a magicker walks into their bar, because they might curse the tavern with evil.

[Bestatte]

Generally the feeling in Allanak is that elementalists are the tools of the templarate, and only the bravest, most desperate, or the most foolish of the general populace.

In Allanak I always felt that should the Templarate revoke the Magickers protected status that the general populace of Allanak would rise up in an angry mob slaughtering gemmers left and right.

The general populace is uneducated and superstisious.  They don't know what Magickers are capable of.  Magickers get blamed for everything from disease, infant deaths, to bad weather.  Rumors persist that they have evil rituals where they drink the blood of innocents and eat babies.

Heh - well if that was the case - I think the LAST thing anyone would want to do is piss off a magicker. Better make nice to this gemmer - or he'll suck your blood - or contact his cronies and have them eat your children.

Goes both ways huh? I wouldn't even -attempt- to show any hostility toward a magicker, unless I knew all about what they can and cannot do - AND knew that my skills could kill him faster than his spells could kill me.

I might plot and scheme and educate myself on the subject - but in the meantime that magicker's gonna think I'm his best buddy, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

[Akaramu]

Actually, some people who agree are not posting because everything has been said and they dont feel like turning the thread into a 10 page monster by simply repeating the same points over.

Could this thread be locked?

We are just beating a dead horse now.

[Agent_137]

We are just beating a dead horse now.

You can just keep your sick pastimes to yourself! I refuse to be a part of beastiality AND necrophilia!






:mrgreen:

[JollyGreenGiant]

While you can never really parallel an encounter with a magicker in a game with something in real life, I find it helpful to look at the docs and try to find some rough equivalent.  My personal take on it is that it'd be the social equivalent of an average, clean-living (at least on the surface), white-collar businessman interacting with a particularly sleazy drug dealer who is well known to be a dealer.  

There are quite a few takes on that scenario.  Maybe both of them went to high school together, so once in a while, they exchange a few meaningless pleasantries, but it's always uncomfortable, tense, and maybe a bit fearful for the businessman, and he never sticks around for long.  Maybe the businessman is horrified, disgusted, or just feels socially superior to the dealer, and treats him with commensurate scorn, derision, and a healthy dose of fear.  Or maybe, the dealer is that businessman's dealer, and they interact, but it's not something the businessman would -ever- want coming out in public... and again, however else they interact, the businessman is probably going to treat his dealer like a loaded gun pointed at his head.

Again, not meant to be a perfect parallel, but that's roughly how I see it.

[Stroker]

but it's not something the businessman would -ever- want coming out in public...

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

I know everything's been covered but I'll add my two sids anyway.

Magickers are hated and feared, true.
Unless you're a mindbender, you don't know why people would associate with magickers.
I have not seen Akaramu's character show any open disdain when I have been around her which is a pretty fair amount so to Akaramu I say, practice what you preach.

I have a theory as to why most people don't do the whole fuck you filthy  magicker it publically.

It's easier to say "Be an asshole to the magickers!" than to do it. Would the militia person still be an asshole if he didn't have the city backing him?  Of course he'll say yes but I don't know for sure anyone can say. I've played with that person before and I can tell you that not once did any of the characters I have ever played with them show open hatred towards magicks? Coincidence?

I prefer to err in the side of caution. Think "filthy magicker" and act outwardly indifferent or even friendly. Why? Because that motherkanker can fry me with his evil magicks and I'm not willing to take that chance because I'm not stupid (or backed by the militia).

People in clans that hire and accept magickers are put in a really delicate situation because the fact is that with loyal service comes loyalty and trust. You don't know what thet magicker has done to earn that trust and you don't know if he or she is trusted more than you are, or liked more than you are. People in a clan that has magickers learn to outwardly tolerate them.

Things are rarely what they seem to be on Arm, be it Tuluk or Allanak. Don't assume to know the motives behind a character's actions and focus on your roleplay.  Bitch sessions like this just make me wanna make an uber friendly war-mage/bard with a desire to love and be loved and never use their filthy magicks to destroy... just to piss off or fry the bitchers.

[Stroker]

I fully agree, good point. However, I would still enjoy more discrimination displayed in-game by the denizens of either city-states.

[Anonymous]

I say the same thing everytime a thread like this pops up, so excuse me for repeating myself.

If I'm sitting at a deli and some skinny crackhead comes and sits at the bar I'm going to do my best to get away from him regardless of whether or not he tries to talk to me.

If Big Vinny Two Balls the local mafia capo comes and sits next to me I'm going to be scared as ever, but you know what I'll do?  I'll talk to him, laugh at his jokes, funny or not, and just do my best to make a gracious exit.  But I sure as hell am not going to treat him with disdain.  I don't want to have my knees broke in some alleyway.

I think it goes much the same with how people treat elves and magickers.  With elves you don't want them stealing your sid.  With magickers you don't want them turning you into dust while you sleep.  Or making you a mindless zombie, etc, etc.

In general, people hate and disdain elves, but hate and fear magickers.  The resulting behavior should be wildly different.

[Akaramu]

Like I pointed out before, I havent seen the "Krath I better not piss him off" friendliness. I've seen people asking gemmed how their magick works, what they can do, and leave the city with them to watch their show. As well as -obvious- befriending, over more than just one occasion, where realistically all the VNPCs in a tavern would have started to point fingers at the ungemmed person.

There were more examples but I'm honestly too tired to remember right now.

Again, I realize some people have valid IC reasons. But almost everyone? I'm surprised the tavern in question wasnt subject to a rumor on its own yet, and losing customers because of folks naming it the "gemmed and gemmed buddy den".

[sjanimal]

Dear Friends,

It seems to me that a couple days ago Akaramu posted something that, if it were better phrased, would have gone:

"In my opinion, it would contribute to a more believable atmosphere if people put a slight bit more space between themselves and magickers."

It seems to me that about five people have been jumping down his throat since then.  To me, this seems like a symptom of an overall pattern of devensiveness.  What disturbs me is that I happen to know that some of these peeps are fairly chill IRL and fairly decent role-players.

I don't think there is any need to get defensive.  I think we should try to understand what he said, and then look inside ourselves to see if there is anything we can do to make his role-playing experience more fun.  Would it hurt to put a little more space around magickers?  If it would, then you probably shouldn't.

Personally, I don't like it when people rain on my parade, so I will do my small part to act a little sketchier around mages.  I'll treat it the way some people treat genetics or nanotechnology:  interesting yet scary.
I won't take it too far, and I'll do it mainly to make the game more fun for another player.  I think his request is reasonable, and I'd like to think he would honor a similar request from me.

NeWaYz.

-sjanimal

[Angela Christine]

There is a difference between disagreeing and being defensive.

A disagreement is not a good reason to lock a thread.  If you don't want people to discuss the topic, don't start the thread in the first place.

The documentation says a lot of things, some of it contridictory.  When there is a conflict, I believe the primary helpfile documentation takes precidence, because any documantion not available INSIDE the game is strictly second-class, auxillary documentation.  

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for
purposes of combat.

So someone is employing mages, eh?

The mages' powers usually lie in deception and
secrecy, and are oft found having an aversion towards
society, preferring to live alone or with others of their kind.  

Oh, so shadow elementalists in particular prefer to live alone or with others of their own kind, which might indicate that many other mages don't like to live alone and like to hang out with others not of their own kind.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or
scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective
magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also
be invaluable as travelling companions because of their
abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests
during long journeys.

Employed as part of armies and scouting groups.  Invaluable travel companions.  Obviously those sentences could not exist unless someone was willing to HIRE them.  The Templarate may have a virtual lock on armies, but plenty of people have scouts, and many travel.

Not only will the
general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other
elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

So the general populace distrusts void elementalists, eh?  Distrusts.  Not, say, hates and seeks to throw dung at them at every opportuntity?  Not runs screaming or burns down taverns void elementalists are known to patronize?

Employment is only found in some other job, as their
abilities aren't generally desired by few but those seeking
quick movement of masses of people.

So Nilazi are employed as things other than mages.  Hmm, that implies that they *are* still employed, and that other mages *are* employed for their magickal abilities.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on
journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and
as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.

Highly employable, worth incredible sums of money.  Cool.

Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will
consider hiring a water elementalist.

Widespread unease.  UNEASE.  Oooh, I feel uneasy.  Not terrified, not filled with hate, uneasy.

Even less than sun mages, however, wind
mages are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability
to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his/her
mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.

Not trusted.  Ok, I don't trust 'em.  In Allanak I don't much trust anyone, but I really don't trust this guy.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to
sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a
mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an
absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be
sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at
which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Sell their spells for a good profit, to someone.  Absolutely invaluable ally, to someone.

The elementalist helpfiles strongly imply that there is a place where distrusted but accepted, somewhere.


And now the big boy:

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and
generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are
tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

In Allanak, magickers are required to register their presence with the Templarate immediately, and to wear a marker of their status for the rest of their lives. (This marker is supposedly a black gem worn at the neck.) As such, registered magickers in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city.

In Tuluk, fear and hatred of magick among the populace are widespread, in no small part due to the destruction of Old Tuluk by a magickal cataclysm. Known magickers of any sort are killed on sight. Any magickers who do attempt to live out their lives in Tuluk do so in secrecy, with a never-ending
fear of being discovered and put to death.

Magick is hated and feared by commoners.  Magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted."  Magickers are tolerated, feared and distrusted.

So, "in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city" that seems clear.

"In Tuluk, fear and hatred of magick among the populace are
widespread, in no small part due to the destruction of Old
Tuluk by a magickal cataclysm."  Ah, so Tulukis are the ones that "hate and fear" magickers, because they have a damned good reason to.  Allanak has had bad things happen because of mages, and good things happen because of mages, but no cataclysmic things.  Now even the good things were kind of scary, which is why gemmed mages are regarded with unease and distrust in Allanak.  Unease and distrust can be overcome, you can earn trust, and unease is hardly a deal breaker.


So what does this mean?  Dunno.  



AC

[Agent_137]

I question the value of ingame help documentation.

Remember the earlier incarnations of this game, where stone elementalist half giants roamed free, and halflings liked to drink Flame in the firestorm bar of tuluk.

Maybe some are left over.

Maybe they aren't.

Just food for thought.

[Angela Christine]

I question the value of ingame help documentation.

Remember the earlier incarnations of this game, where stone elementalist half giants roamed free, and halflings liked to drink Flame in the firestorm bar of tuluk.

Maybe some are left over.

Maybe they aren't.

Just food for thought.

I thought of that.  The helpfiles are not hard to change, and most of them are very short.  This topic has come up before, often.  It isn't like someone finding a steel sword in a forgotten gith village deep in the wilderness, an artifact of earlier days that hadn't been fixed because literally no one remembered it was there to begin with.  

Either the helpfiles are accurate, or the staff is deliberately decieving players and potential players.  


AC

[Angela Christine]

Oh, and don't forget "The Ladies Love a Stone Mage".

A grey-eyed bard says, in northern-accented sirihish:
    "I will now perform, 'The Ladies Love a Stone Mage .'"

>Several patrons cheer boisterously as a grey-eyed bard begins a rowdy tune.

It isn't exactly the sort of song that would become popular in a totally magiphobic society.  

When is the last time you heard a popular song about the sexual prowess of an abortion doctor or a homosexual?


AC

[Lazloth]

YMCA?

[Seeker]

Lazloth Rocks.

[Cenghiz]

When is the last time you heard a popular song about the sexual prowess of an abortion doctor or a homosexual?

George Michael "Outside"?

Yep! I totally agree with AC. SO; the commoners should distrust a little more, as I stated from the beginning. They should not say "Hi!" and offer a drink for nothing. But.... Why didn't any Kadian or Salarri hire any rukkians to empower their hunters? I had a trusted rukkian once. He was employed by a merchant, OK, but it was for different personal purposes. I believe more houses should be willing to hire magickers to aid in some tasks, temporarily or permanently.

[MSM]

I don't like waking up.

So I don't read wake up call posts.

They're long.

[Forest Junkie]

If houses besides certain ones I won't mention would attempt to hire out magickers, I would definitely be playing in Allanak more than I have in the past.