Gemmed interaction - a wake up call.

[Akaramu]

I'm sure this will provoke another long follow-up of semi-flames, but I just have to say it. Recently, observing the interaction of non-gemmed players with gemmed in taverns makes me want to hit my keyboard with my head. The same goes for gemmed-gemmed, it all looks like YO buddy whats your element? Cool lets go have a drink.

Where are the commoners who hate gemmed or at least show some tension or signs of fear around them? From what I have seen, almost everyone befriended them, and was casually chatting at the same table. There were at MOST two PCs I have seen who changed table or expressed disgust or anxiety in any way. I dont doubt some of you have IC reason to get along with gemmed. But... EVERYONE? It sets a bad example for new players. Allanak is starting to look like Tuluk, except that magickers appear to be everyone's buddy.

This even went to the point where a group of people left the city with a magicker to look at what he could do as if it was some sort of entertainment show. For Krath's sake, come to your senses. (This is not aimed at anyone in particular).

I also would like to see more obvious tension among the elements. Where is the Krathi who hates all Drovians? Where is the Vivaduan snorting at the Krathi? Are you all some sort of happy, friendly hippie community now? It looks like love, peace and a bit of magic. There have of course been exceptions, but they were very few that I have seen, and they should be apparent. Its Allanak darnit.

I am getting to the point where I almost hope Halaster will kill everyone in Allanak so it will maybe stop looking like Tuluk with the new wave of fresh PCs.

*insert pained sigh here*

-The person who once rushed out of a tavern and went hide in a dark alleyway because a gemmed tried to talk to her.

[Delirium]

Let me start of by saying I agree.

BUT...

There has to be a balance. People just don't seem to know how to keep up sustained interaction with one another unless it's in a friendly manner, heh. I'd like to see more hating, more wary bartering between people that don't necessarily like each other but can make use of each other (gemmed, elves, etc etc), more open sneering at someone's back, more arguing, more insulting, more brawling... that DOESN'T result in players A or B suddenly being marked for death.

That goes for gemmeds but also for almost everywhere in game as well.

[Armaddict]

I guarantee you're talking about my character in at least one case.

Let me remind you, you have no idea why.  But it is part of the character.  Try -talking- to someone about it in game to find out, instead of making an assumption and posting on the GDB?

[ashyom]

In a way, I agree.
Looking at it from new players' POV.  I think a part of the problem - not the whole - is that there are a few PCs who want to play the exception to the rule.  That's fine in itself as long as it's done sparingly, but some of these said PCs tend to play long sessions, and they have higher visibility impact because they're, well, -there-.  The new players see these PCs and emulate them because they're -there- all the time, and they don't see the other, 'normal' (and more correct) RP.  Not to mention, new players often don't understand why there are so many nasty people and someone has to help the poor <insert victim>.   :roll:

I personally see some of victimizing going on, but I get advantages ya'all don't.  Some PCs will say, "Oh, that's a good idea.  Let's shake on it." while thinking, "Ugh!  Gross!  I have to touch him!  Sands! I'm so buying water to wash my hand.  If my fingers fall off, I'll bribe that soldier, Joebob, near my shack to beat him up."

Some players will decide it's better to not piss off that nasty magicker cause you don't know what exactly they're capable of.  Which reminds me, superstitions are sadly an underused aspect in the game.  But I digress.  

In general, I will agree that there are a lot more pussyfooting around than I remember; increasingly number of players are more careful and perhaps even afraid of losing their characters, so they tend to not be as gritty as they could be.
-Ashyom the Pensive.

[sjanimal]

I hadn't really thought about it.

That definitely raises a good point.

And before you say that Allanak is too soft, keep in mind I've been robbed there four times in the past IRL week.  LOL  It's definitely not soft.

[Akaramu]

Its not Allanak being too soft.

Its the roleplay with / around gemmed that really bothers me. I see long periods of friendly tavern sitting and buddy chat with many different ungemmed PCs. The difference between 'darn I have to trade with him I better be polite and get out afterwards' and 'Hey Drovian bud, how have you been? Come, finish this bottle with me' should be visible. But all I really see is lots and lots and lots of befriending and bunnyhugging all kinds of gemmed.

Some of my friends are very dissatisfied with the current situation as well. I've had plenty of Allanak based characters in 8 months of playing. Recently it just feels, and looks, very wrong.

Halaster, do something! Please!  :wink:

[Armaddict]

Get pissed at the character IC, then.

[Akaramu]

Get pissed at the character IC, then.

Cant comment here, too IC.  :wink:

[Xygax]

Armaddict's suggestion is a good one.  If you don't like how people are playing, provide a better example.  People who trust magickers probably aren't to be trusted either.

[Forest Junkie]

Armaddict's suggestion is a good one.  If you don't like how people are playing, provide a better example.  People who trust magickers probably aren't to be trusted either.

Agreed, Armaddict and Xygax.

[Gaare]

It is raining magikker!!

   I sometimes see four gemmers in a tavern with two citizen PCs... so I think it is hard to expect from a newbie to behave appropriately...

I think there must a be strict limit for number of magikkers.

[Armaddict]

Just wanted to clear something up, I'm -not- disagreeing with Akamaru on this point.  I've seen what they're talking about, as well.

I was just saying that my character, and this doesn't happen often at all, is playing a sort of exception.  If you'd talk to him about it, you'd find out why, though probably still disagree with his point of view.

People -are- being too friendly.  If you see someone else around you buddying up with a magicker, don't be afraid to show some disdain, or even openly slam them.  One of the beauties of this game is that through a subtle, or not so subtle reaction to other's actions, you can affect the mood of their situation.  Thus, perhaps even affect the outcome.

Stop being so nice in allanak, people!  *shakes a fist*

[Akaramu]

As much as I would like to display a better example, I really cant with my current PC. I'm not one of those exceptions, I simply cant for reasons I will not get into. My cheers to everyone else who can and will do it.

p.s. To a certain southern militia person... you rule. I love you.

[Stroker]

I -do- provide a better example in-game. I completely agree with Akaramu... jeez. I can see one outcast befriending a magicker.... but every damn pc? That's just ridiculous. Mock them! Humiliate them! Shun them! It's WAY more fun. Come on people!

[Teleri]

I'd like to see quite a bit more hatred between the opposing elements, myself.  To me, it only makes sense that a magicker of the water element should loathe that of the fire element, for they draw upon opposing planes for power.  If one is too numerous, the other will suffer, or at least maybe they think.  

In general, it would be very pleasing to see more open antipathy between all characters who have reasons to be mad at someone.  Argue, wave weapons threateningly, brawl, sneer, and verbally jab.  It makes for a more interesting and productive experience rather than one person insulting someone once and then getting killed the next instant.  Far more harm can be done to somebody than by merely killing them, and bearing that in mind will bring more enjoyment for all involved in any altercations.  Of course, it may escalate to the point of killing anyway, but at least there was some more fun to be had in any delaying of action.

[Armaddict]

Agreed with Teleri.  Something I've -always- wanted to see.

Even in the helpfiles, it talks about distrust between certain elements, such as Drov and Suk-krath.  Hell, even some inter-magicker troubles would be nice.  Then they wouldn't have to depend on the rest of the populace so much for their conflicts.  The elementalists quarter, could, in all essence, become a sort of sub-city.  One where most elementalists wouldn't have to leave it.

Which would be coooool.  Heh.

[Agent_137]

Good posts by everyone. I agree.

[sheep]

I fully agree with Akaramu. People are getting way too comfortable with magickers in Allanak; especially after that fairly recent RPT session. I personally would like to see fewer magickers overall, at least until there is a larger playerbase.

[Xygax]

Incidentally, if you find someone's RP along these lines to be utterly egregious, e-mail feedback to the mud@ account.  If it is correct, useful and constructive, it may be forwarded.

[sjanimal]

Armaddict and Xygax,

Although I usually find myself agreeing with both of you, in this instance I really feel it important to politely disagree.

For example, the other day I was playing a hard-working, laborer old man in Allanak.  How did this guy get to be old?  Mostly by being friendly, not talking to strangers and minding his own business.  He wasn't too chummy with anyone or a sissy or anything, he just believed in staying out of trouble.
This character observed some SERIOUSLY innapropriate behavior on the part of a few PCs.  When I told someone about it, they snapped at me DEAL WITH IT IC.

What would have been more in character?  To pk the both of them (boy, was I tempted) or to just stay in character and do what my character always does around suspicious people...that is to ignore them.  And that's what I did, but it didn't make the point.

Let's be honest.  Many of our characters are not law enforcement.  They're not role-play inforcement, either.  I think if the players see something they something they consider GROSSLY (not mildly) innapropriate, then they should report it in a polite and discreet fashion.  I think the staff should respond with "Okay, I''m busy but I'll try to look into it if I have time."

If complaints build up against someone, then an IMM should use a couple of shadowy thugs to contact the person, interrogate her, beat her up and tell her she has two days to leave town.  It shouldn't be often necessary, but it should be a really cool way to make the point, and more importantly it should contribute to game atmosphere.  Game atmosphere is really what I'm trying to preserve here.

Thanks for reading this.

-sjanimal

[sjanimal]

Xygax

Didn't see your last post,

=-)

-sjanimal

[Xygax]

Even though you just posted a follow-up, I'd like to say that "deal with it IC" allows you a much broader range of roleplay choices than "PK" or "ignore."  I'd very much like to see people (in general, not just with magickers) make subtler choices about how they react to things like this...  even if your response is only relayed through "thinks"....  but better still, how about some uncomfortable shifting...  stuttering...  narrowed eyes...  nervous ticks, active avoidance? (ie. get up and leave the room), secretive plotting (even if nothing comes of it...  even if nothing -could- ever come of it, you might still get some friends together and talk about how much you'd like to lynch a magicker).  Even if you choose to be friendly, you can make it clear that your attitude is false (even if your character wouldn't mean to reveal such things)...  and that would be stellar RP.

You have a lot of options, even if your character is ancient, and the very last option you choose should be mailing the account.  As I said above, the "offense" should be (or at least seem) major...  You may not understand every aspect of the situation between the people you're watching (or even between the people you interact with and yourself...  the whole situation is usually never entirely clear).

[Koala]

Just leave people alone and allow them to RP whichever way they like to play... If something disturbs you, find a solution ICly, if that needs to be e-mailed to mud account, then e-mail it.. That is the way I deal with it...

Please don't take this an offensive argument, this is just the way I think and it doesn't aim anyone..

[Xygax]

Koala:  I generally agree, and I'm the last person to advocate the "RP police."  But I think constructive criticism can be useful.  More than that, I think discussion on this board of what is appropriate RP often gives people a better idea of how the environment of the game is intended to work.

[Koala]

Koala:  I generally agree, and I'm the last person to advocate the "RP police."  But I think constructive criticism can be useful.  More than that, I think discussion on this board of what is appropriate RP often gives people a better idea of how the environment of the game is intended to work.

Yes, Xygax, I also like to see appropriate RP examples and they are really good most of the time but sometimes I don't feel comfortable when people start telling me what to do..

[Akaramu]

Yes, Xygax, I also like to see appropriate RP examples and they are really good most of the time but sometimes I don't feel comfortable when people start telling me what to do..

Did anyone? No one has complained about any particular PC, it is just the current situation as a whole that feels wrong. I dont mind the one or maybe two PCs I know have IC reason to befriend magickers. But when everyone does it, it starts to look really odd, and gives new players a wrong impression.

[Anonymous]

anon for obvious reasons

there are also legitimate IC reasons why some people really would have no problem with magickers even if they aren't magickers themselves. but some of those people can't explain to anyone without getting themselves or their clans in trouble. if someone is 'being nice' to a magicker it is important to know who they are before deciding that theyre being inapprorpiate. Maybe they are maybe not.

[Xygax]

Anonymous Kank:  Those same people should probably consider making their dealings with magickers more secretive.  Just because magickers are useful doesn't mean you want to be seen in public with one.

[amoeba]

Ok after calming down a bit to write this...

(apologies in advance for a multitule of spelling errors)

Let me give you my perspective as to why people, probably mostly new PC tend to "appear" to be friendlier than folks believe they should be.   This is -not- an excuse for poor behaivour, simply a perspective on why it happens IMHO, hopefully leading to a rewarding way for -everyone- to improve thier RP.

Reasons:

1: Ignorance.  Simply put, documentation is not the same as experience.  Quite frankly I have seen the gemmed ones initiating the friendly contact.  "think They don't seem so bad"

2: Limited possiblities for new PC's.  Life as a newbie is much harder than life as most anyone else.  It consists of simple mundae, mindnumingly repeitive tasks to just keep alive long enough to know what to do next.  Job opprotunities are often scarce, and your ability to counter someones open hostility to you is near non-existant. Hell 99.9% of the PC's and NPC's for that matter could kick my ass.  What I'm gonna get in thier face and antagonize them? Get real.  So after a long, face it dull day of mundane tasks, I may go sit in a tavern, and try to interact with most -anyone-. and not piss them off.

3: Clueless or simply don't care.  Yes I've encountered a few of these.

4: Maybe it's intentional.  That "bunny hugger" over there may be one of the most coniving,  dangerous people you will ever encouter... behind your back.  I could be that person is gaining some trust, to learn how to defeat you and everyone around you. How do you know.  You don't.  (life is harsh, deal with it).

Comments:

I don't see near enough -constructive- feedback, nor nuturing of newbies.  Zalantahas creates plenty of  enemies.  But a successfull and --enjoyable-- RP experience does not consist -solely- of enemies.  Friends or at least allies are just as importaint. Unfortunatlly a newbie has few if any of these.  I still find myself gravitating to folks with newbie clothes with the thought, "maybe this is someone I can talk to safely"  Sadly this leads to the trend of newbies teaching newbies.  I would like to see an IC "mentoring" program.  Not a "My name is Jim I'll be your mentor today" type of thing, but rather people who are skilled enough to seek out PC's that are obviously struggling with the RP    or seem to have a problem moving themselfs forward, and give them some constructive IC advice.  Bad example:  "whisper n00b  Hey man, what are you doing talking to the filther, you want to get us all killed, come over to the table, lets talk".    I have seen some people do this effectivly.

If complaints build up against someone, then an IMM should use a couple of shadowy thugs to contact the person, interrogate her, beat her up and tell her she has two days to leave town. It shouldn't be often necessary, but it should be a really cool way to make the point, and more importantly it should contribute to game atmosphere. Game atmosphere is really what I'm trying to preserve here.

Good idea... but.. if the person is not in some way made to know thier behaviour is inconsitant with good RP, they may never correlate the action with thier behaviour.  If you don't let them know, either though IC means or RL means, how will they know what they did wrong.  Or more importiantly how to do it right.  Yes it's a lot of work.

Lets hope that people are not expecting -everyone- to be an asshole to everyone else.  If all I have to look forward to online is 40-60 people ready to humilate, and belittle me -all- the time, and that -no one- should be a decent honest hardworking person, thats fun to be around, then something is seriously wrong.  And just remember, just because I may be nice, that doesn't mean I'm not up to something... eventually.

my 2 (hard earned) sid

[Faglore]

I am a person who pays attention to the world around me ig Koala, I also have a short attention span. When I have to watch people massacre the premise of rp ig, it snaps me out of my trance. It's hard for me to focus on whats happening ig, when I am constantly reminded of real life or something completely different then what is going on in armageddon. I guess its my fault that I get so agitated, and that I can't ignore it. But they are the ones who can't bother to do two three simple things: 1) Read the docs thoroughly before you create a character. 2) Try using the letters e-m-o-t-e ig once and a while. 3) Read the descriptions of your surroundings carefully so you can rp accordingly. Some people choose to disregard one, two, or all three of these things. What this post is saying, I completely agree with. I am really losing a feel for the game world because of some of the players around me ig. A newbie I can understand, and rp around, a high ranking official in a merchant or noble house I can not.

[Angela Christine]

Agreed with Teleri.  Something I've -always- wanted to see.

Even in the helpfiles, it talks about distrust between certain elements, such as Drov and Suk-krath.  Hell, even some inter-magicker troubles would be nice.  Then they wouldn't have to depend on the rest of the populace so much for their conflicts.  The elementalists quarter, could, in all essence, become a sort of sub-city.  One where most elementalists wouldn't have to leave it.

That would be cool, but for that you would need more gemmed to be active.  Say at least 5 Vivaduans, 5 Rukkians, 3 whirans, 3 Krathians, 2 Elkrosians, 2 Drovians, and 1 Nilazi . . . if Nilazi are even allowed to be gemmed.  That would provide enough PCs for gemmed-gemmed interaction and conflict.  As it is the gemmed are almost like a defacto clan, they are nice to eachother because they have no one else to play with.

The elementalists quarter can easily get to be a barren wasteland  RP-wise.  A role almost as restrictive as being a noble, but with none of the perks.  Try playing a gemmed before you criticise them.

I personally would like to see fewer magickers overall, at least until there is a larger playerbase.

The fewer gemmed you have, the more they are FORCED to move into the commoner's quarter to look for interaction.

Fewer magickers overall, meh.  I've seen people suggest fewer independants and fewer hunters/wanderers, close the tribes, fewer nobles/noble servants, or that people should concentrate in cities "at least until there is a larger playerbase."  The thing is, that doesn't really work.  Yes, you can forbid certain types of roles, but you can't force people to play other types of roles, because you can't force people to play at all.  If a player can't play the type(s) of roles they enjoy, eventually they will leave the MUD.  

Removing 10 magicker roles doesn't necessarily create 10 non-magikers, instead it might create 5 non-magickers and 5 non-players.

Because of the Karma system you come into this gameworld knowing it will probably be at least a year before you can play a mage.  That isn't a totally bad thing since it gives you time to learn about the world, but it is discouraging for new players that enjoy playing arcane roles.

You basically can't play a scholarly PC at all, which is also discouraging.  Most commoners can't be all that scholarly because they don't have the rudiments of education on which to build.  The Noble, Templar, and Merchant Family roles availible (people who may have some education and be able to read and write) are not scholars, because those few roles are reserved for "workhorse" members of their organizations, the ones who arrest elves or sell doo-dads to the public.  All the scholars, and they do exist, are virtual.  No rogue librarians.  Ok, it's not that kind of a game, I can deal with it.

For a while it was almost, but not quite, impossible to play a "classic ranger" a lone desert wanderer in the south.  Luckily the uber-critter population boom eventually went bust.  But I dealt with that too, in fact I went through 30+ PCs figuring out how to deal with it.  

Playing a city mage is very difficult, but not quite impossible.  You either have to be a mage that doesn't use magic, or a mage that is almost totally isolated from society.  It should be a hard life ICly, but it shouldn't be so damned OOCly hard.  There are some spells that are clearly meant to be used in co-operation with others, but the opportunities to use them are few-to-none.  Few clans will knowingly hire mages, and even those are unlikely to promote co-operation between mages and non-mages.  Is it really any wonder that mage PCs are desperate for interaction, any interaction?


AC

[Cenghiz]

Hmm... Back to the subject.. I like playing gemmers, because I like conflict. I like people teasing my char, then the char going to find an elven assassin, paying 1000 sids in a dark alley just before escaping from the elf and his four buddies to start a new plot to whack that elf.
I hate when someone asks me: "Hey there.. How you doing?" when I play a gemmer. I usually remark slightly that I would like to use that char's skull as a spell component. But some do have reasons to see me as a wise one instead of a dangerous one.
Gemmer gemmer interaction? Why not? There are not much opposing elements.. Krath hates Drov, everyone hates Nilaz... Anything else? None. I'd willingly buy some water from that nice vivaduan then chatter about the horns of God with that Elkran. *shrug* We're the only ones with brains anyway.. At least we think that way. Of course there are some exceptions, magickers that want to be left alone. But that is an exception, as I experienced. And they play it too well. Thanks to imms some cursing spells don't start a fight or mark you as guilty in temples, so some chars showed me why I should leave them alone. They were great experiences either.
Some IC events will solve the problem soon. No need to worry. The gemmers will be in gemmers' quarter and at least my char won't like seeing some stinking commoners in *my* quarters.

[Dan]

First off, some roles are more of a challenge to be played when they fall outside of the "cookie-cutter" bynner, merchant, ranger, assassin, etc. Magickers being one, muls, and half-giants to name a few. They are a challenge and the person may not be a newb to the gameworld, but to that particular concept they may not know exactly how their character would act in a moments notice, so there must be given some slack for such error.

As far as the Akaramu's post concering the people going out to see what could be done as entertainment... it would have been for them. Too IC already, but it was not improper so far as I could tell. It might not have snapped into place with the gameworld as good as it could have, but there are some roles that leave you few options in challenging others IC actions due to race restrictions and established backgrounds.

I've played mayby a dozen gemmed magickers, two out of twelve had a 'friend' in the game. Meaning, someone that wouldn't try to kill them when they were in a lawless area. A ranger in the isolated wilds can come into the city and chum it up with anyone, a magicker is already in the city and can't just go make friends. A gemmer cannot go north of Luirs, or mayby not even to Luirs. They cannot go to Red Storm (for extended periods of time), a gemmer is isolated -to- an unfriendly place, Allanak. I would think they would take friends where they can find them, even if they decide they have to kill them later on for whatever reason.

I would go so far as to say that the current gemmer situation in Allanak is just a phase that a minority of PCs are going through. I would bet that in a month or two things will be back to the normal. Meaning that there will be three gemmed pcs that don't talk to each other or anyone else, becuase these players are gluttons for punishment.

Touching on one point of AC's post... there are spells with other PC's benefit in mind, why would the gameworld be set up to make these spells useless? It wouldn't. To go in another direction, I would actually like to see that Whiran selling his spells for enough to scrape by, or the Vivaduan who trades water for food. As far as I can tell there is conflict in the docs that creates conflict between players over these topics. If everyone is so scarred of magickers, then who exactly are these Whirans selling their spells to? Where are the Rukkian scouts for small hunting parties or armies, however that guild doc paints that picture... etc. I think a line needs to be drawn, where though, I am not sure.

[Armaddict]

Someone being nice to a magicker snaps you out of your trance?  It's still happening in game.

That 'snapping out of trance' would be something your character probably finds jarring.  There -are- people who would be nice to magickers.  It is also so rare that most people would find it thoroughly strange.  Have your character let them know...somehow, whether it be an involuntary expression, a feeling of enmity, etc.  The idea?

-You- be the example to them.  If it's a newbish mistake, they'll gain the knowledge at how most people act.  If they have an actual IC reason, they may explain it, or somehow make it known to you that they know what's happening is strange, and if they don't care, they'll probably just talk shit back and you have an excuse to slug them

[Pantoufle]

I think what many players don't realize is the humanistic approach a "harsh" game like ArmageddonMUD requires.  You need to look at the other player's point of view and ask, "is this a fun environment for them too?"  No, I'm not saying we should all embrace one another and be kind, nor that I should worry if the person I just Pkilled is enjoying the fact that he just lost his character.  I'm talking about longterm interactions here between conflicting roles.  A role should be designed to be fun, not boring.

Snubbing spellcasters (in a city which offers them sanction) is all well and good, provided the spellcasters have something more to do than simply be snubbed or soloplay in a temple.  Believe it or not, but they're there to be used, and each has a service to offer.  You can argue this until you are blue in the face (and I probably shouldn't say that, knowing how longwinded some of these threads can get :roll:) but any Joe Shmoe can hire a mage, if (s)he really wants.  Sure, yeah, I know, maybe .. MAYBE the "average commoner" would be too afraid to and we should reserve the hiring of mages to a very specific set of people.  After a while you gotta just say "fuck that shit" and make the game a tad more playable.  Otherwise you got a lot of characters sitting around with naught to do and why?  Because we're being IC.  Serious dude.  Fuck that.  Are you joking?  If you got a problem because I'm chatting it up in a 'Naki tavern with some Rukkian in hopes of hiring him, well, I guess I don't know how to say this any more politely other than .. piss off.

I guess I miss the days when shit actually happened in game rather than everyone grunting and nodding at tables, doing the same old predictable restricted social crap.  I remember when Borsail actually used to go on slaving runs (REGULARLY, not once in a great blue moon); these days the ranks are setup in such a way that no one will ever a) have the authority and/or b) the playerbase required to stage such an event.  And I remember when templars in the city-states saw battle on a regular basis, instead of the usual jerking-off-at-a-table-for-hours routine and every once in a while getting involved in some nifty (or not so nifty) plot/RPT.  And as far as spellcasters go, I remember the T'zai Byn being paid to hunt down a sorcerer long ago, and do you know who they hired to take with them?  Me and my whiran ass .  These days it's like "Oh god no, can't do that!  We're supposed to hate magickers!  Run!  RUN!"  Okay, well I guess you all can go ahead and have fun hating and snubbing, sitting around and doing nothing.  But me?  I plan to see some shit happen in game.

[Akaramu]

Snubbing spellcasters (in a city which offers them sanction) is all well and good, provided the spellcasters have something more to do than simply be snubbed or soloplay in a temple.  Believe it or not, but they're there to be used, and each has a service to offer.

If they are afraid of having nothing to do well, they shouldnt play a gemmed magicker. I'm all for designing roles in a way that are enjoyable, but please, lets keep them enjoyable in a realistic way. Personally, I dont play desert elves because I KNOW I would be bored. Simple as that. I wouldnt play a desert elf and then try to interact with half a dozen city people because I'm bored and the game is supposed to be fun. I havent played a gemmed magicker either, for similar reasons, but very much enjoyed my ungemmed one.

Please, dont pick roles that bore you and expect the world to bend around you and entertain you.

There's a place for gemmed and jobs and things going on available for them. The interaction is supposed to be hush-hush, no one would realistically want to be seen in public as buddy-buddy with a magicker. That doesnt mean that there could not be a lot of behind the doors action going on. In addition to all this, one clan is known to officially hire gemmed, and others who do so secretly.

I dont like how every Joe commoner all of a sudden doesnt mind sharing a drink with a Krathi, for example. It just looks REALLY odd. Arent your friends and family looking at you funny? Where is your virtual business partner pointing fingers and accusing you of being a magicker yourself? The templar starting to ask you unpleasant questions because you openly questioned an Elkran at the bar about what exactly it is they can do?

If you cant handle the realistic downsides of a role, dont play it. It really is that simple.

[Forest Junkie]

*Sigh*

If they are afraid of having nothing to do well, they shouldnt play a gemmed magicker.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Every role comes with lengths of boredom. Do not ever attempt to discourage someone from trying out something new.

Please, dont pick roles that bore you and expect the world to bend around you and entertain you.

Where the hell did you get that from?

I dont like how every Joe commoner all of a sudden doesnt mind sharing a drink with a Krathi, for example. It just looks REALLY odd.

This looks odd -to you-. Perhaps their pc doesn't give a da-da-damn what you think, hrrm? I agree, it does not flow with the documentation. But so what? Let them have fun in their own way.

If you cant handle the realistic downsides of a role, dont play it. It really is that simple.

...See the first quote.

[Lirs]

I thought the point here was how people were reacting to these magickers, not the people playing gemmed magickers themselves? I certainly don't see magickers asking the world to 'bend around them to entertain them'.  

I can agree with some of the points here, there is a little to much friendliness to magickers, elves, half-elves, ugly mutants...  But I don't necessarily think that the friendliness towards them has anything to do with a magicker being bored in their role.

[Delirium]

People need to start picking on people more often, period - elves, mutants, mages, half-elves, other scum of lifes.. but on the flip side, saying 'yo mamma' shouldn't mean a death sentence. Heh.

Sure, an argument or enemity between two people could eventually escalate to attempts on the others' life or at least physical violence, but I do think people let their characters get pushed to 'I AM <NAME> YOU HAVE INSULTED MY HONOR PREPARE TO DIE' a bit too quickly.

Maybe that's why people are afraid to start arguments and cause conflict? It's a vicious cycle. I give you all full permission to hate on my characters, if it helps!

There was a post someone made about sustainable conflict - it's one of the most rewarding and interesting things to RP out I have found, but unfortunately it also seems to be fairly rare in Arm.

Now, excuse me while I crawl off to get my coffee.

[Krath]

Ditto to Akaramu and Delirium. I will hold my tongue on this issue because I know it will

A> Piss people off
B> Make me look like a Big asshole and RP Policeman

[Akaramu]

Not gonna respond to Forest Junkie because he just loves to flame me for some reason. Plenty of other players agree, enough said.

[Akaramu]

I thought the point here was how people were reacting to these magickers, not the people playing gemmed magickers themselves? I certainly don't see magickers asking the world to 'bend around them to entertain them'.  

I can agree with some of the points here, there is a little to much friendliness to magickers, elves, half-elves, ugly mutants...  But I don't necessarily think that the friendliness towards them has anything to do with a magicker being bored in their role.

That portion of my post was directed at what Pantoufle wrote:

After a while you gotta just say "fuck that shit" and make the game a tad more playable. Otherwise you got a lot of characters sitting around with naught to do and why? Because we're being IC.

Thats the viewpoint I disagreed with.

[spawnloser]

Akaramu...please, don't accuse of flaming unless you are sure.  I really don't think FJ was flaming you.

On topic, though, I agree that people don't show the proper prejudices enough in game...and when they do, everyone gets all huffy like they've never received such prejudice before in their life, but should have received it on a regular basis for some time.  This goes back to what Delirium said about people too quickly going into, "YOU HAVE INSULTED ME AND MUST DIE!" mode.  People that should show prejudices are probably scared of doing so for the reaction of those players that do this.

Perhaps more than just the people showing lack of prejudice needs to analyze their actions, hmm?

[Bestatte]

And furthermore!

(I really love saying that)

How do you know that you're avoiding a role that bores you, if you've never tried it? I don't understand that concept at all. "Don't play roles that bore you" - well um - all roles get boring from time to time. That's just a fact, Jack.

If you're referring to magicker roles being boring - how do you know they're more boring than others, if you refuse to try one? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I've played three magickers so far. One was awesome most of the time. One was really boring most of the time. One was kinda in the middle, but heavier on the "not boring" side.

Desert elves boring? Says who? And since when?

As for the topic at hand - there are some people with legitimate IC reasons to hob-nob with magickers. There are some without legit IC reasons. There are the occasional player who can't accept that this game is SUPPOSED to be harsh, and refuses to ever roleplay someone with any semblance of hostility toward anyone else. And there are some who are on the other end of the spectrum, who will play a character that most other characters will automatically be hostile toward, and not understand why everyone's being mean to them.

Such is the nature of muds. There exists no mud that I have ever experienced or tried out where everyone plays exactly as they "should." And how everyone "should" play is not your decision to make. Nor mine. That responsibility falls within the scope of the staff. If you see someone you think is fucking up royally, let the staff know, and RP however you think YOUR character should RP. And then deal with the consequences, for good or for bad.

Grumble all you like - but don't try telling me I'm not supposed to be nice to magickers. It is none of your business, unless you take the time to RP your character finding out why. And don't be disappointed if you never learn the answer.

[Cenghiz]

Wow! Calm down.. Sheathe those axes!
Both sides are right. Gemmers should be teased, people should be afraid of gemmers. As I said, I hate when a char comes to my gemmer's table just for chatter.
There's an easy way to make newbies behave more RP-wise.. Act as they were people from outside, then whisper them the truth with your gemmer. I did it a few times.. A newbie who's trying to learn the commands says "hello" to me (with no capitals ) then it is easy to tell him the rules: "You're new in 'nak eh? Look.. This is a gem. I'm a gemmer.. Now please don't be afraid because I'll do nothing to you but I wield _magick_ (OOC: Maybe you can read about RP'ing magickers in main page docs.)"..
But magickers should have something to interact, too. Why not? The guild may hire Drovians. The Tor already hires Elkrans and Krathis. Kadius or Salarr may hire a Rukkian to assist his hunters. So people would still hate me as a gemmer, but they'll use me, too.
Why not?

[Akaramu]

-I didnt say desert elves and gemmed magickers are boring. I said they would be boring to play for me personally. Maybe something awesome would happen and I'd enjoy them anyway, but chances are it would not, so I dont play them. I have reasons for knowing what I like or dont like to do in advance, and they work out well for me.

-I particularly didnt RP police particular people. I complained about the situation as a WHOLE, with almost every PC commoner that is active adding to it. I even mentioned cases I know of where it is IC. It doesnt bother me that those people do it. It bothers me that its pretty much everyone I see.

-I didnt try telling Bestatte anything, so for Krath's sake calm down.

-I didnt say it is my decision. I only said it bothers a large amount of current players. If it bothers a lot of people as opposed to one, something's wrong.

-I honestly play Armageddon because its the only place where people have, so far, acted realistically to the world and culture. I'm sure in time things in Allanak will turn back to normal, this whole thread was just supposed to be a wake-up call hoping to motivate more people to hate gemmed with their next PC concept.

[Bestatte]

And if it -doesn't- bother a lot of people, then maybe it's not nearly as "wrong" as you think.

Bear in mind that the people who post on this forum is not representative of the entire player base, comprising over 200 players (Sanvean once said she thought it was closer to 400 awhile back).

It's just a bunch of us with big mouths who enjoy debating and discussion.

If it truly was an issue, you'd see a lot more people posting here. Particularly more people who don't normally post but REALLY are riled up about it and need to say their peace.

If it truly is an issue - the best place to post this is in e-mail, to the staff, and not on the GDB. It is not our job to inspire players to hate magickers. In fact - I don't recall reading anywhere in the documentation that the general public of ALLANAK hates magickers. Tuluk, yes. Allanak, no. They don't trust them - they are suspicious of them - they fear them. But no, they don't hate them, in general. Some do, some don't, and there's absolutely no rule saying that the majority of PCs should approach all gemmed magickers with hostility.

That is your interpretation and your desire, but it certainly is not part of the game documentation and you'd be a lot better off just calming down and stop trying to impose your interpretation on everyone else with a "wake-up call" as you titled this thread.

[Ender]

Quoted from the Magicker FAQ:

"Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas."

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html#hate

[Pantoufle]

After a while you gotta just say "fuck that shit" and make the game a tad more playable. Otherwise you got a lot of characters sitting around with naught to do and why? Because we're being IC.

Thats the viewpoint I disagreed with.

I am in no way advocating we all blatantly disregard IC realism purely for playability.  It's one thing to prance down Commoner's Way singing "I love mages, I love mages!" and it's another to roleplay discretion and wariness while still interacting.  What I am saying is this.

I find on many occasions various characters throughout the game refusing to roleplay with one another or in any way involving themselves simply because it is IC for them to do so.  Let me tell you something, a snotty, high-ranking Nenyuki agent could find a reason to shoot the shit with a Rinth elf if (s)he really used his head.  Besides, you needn't be involved directly.  Sadly for many people, because it's "IC" for them not to talk to you, you essentially do not exist in any way shape or form.  Might as well be playing a different MUD.  Let me expound on this a bit...

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the overall concept for half-elves was that they are all loners who shun other people at all costs.  Now let's also say that 9 characters out of 10 in game were half-elf, for whatever reason.  I don't care how "IC" you tell me they may be acting, watching 5 PCs sit around at separate tables in a tavern, all refusing to speak to the other (because it's IC) is boring with a capital B.

It's simple.  A magicker in Tuluk is toast.  A magicker in Allanak is a tool that people should and will use.  Deal with it.

Newbies are going to be magicker friendly in the beginning.  You're just going to have to get used to that real quick, or else you'll see this topic posted on the GDB again and again and again (well, I guess that's already happening).

[Bestatte]

Interesting. That is on a page titled "Magick Roleplay" in the Roleplay docs. I guess the reason I never knew it existed - was because I never had any need to look for how to roleplay a magicker. When I played one I asked a couple of helpers and read the easier to find docs about what the class entailed. I'm guessing I'm not the only one...since it doesn't say "Roleplaying WITH magickers" - it says "Magick Roleplay" as in - how to roleplay if you ARE a magicker.

I stand corrected - too bad there's no search engine to look for that kinda stuff. It isn't in the help files, or anywhere else I could find. All I saw was that Allanak made good use of magickers, and that Vivaduans are valued citizens because they can provide water, and Rukkians are valued because they make great guides outside the city, etc. etc. etc.

[Pantoufle]

Quoted from the Magicker FAQ:

"Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas."

Yeah dude.  I could probably dig up some minute little snippet from the help files or a document out there stating that elves are shunned and despised and no human organization would ever under any circumstances employ one .. but that sure as shit ain't the case either.

Fact of the matter is, there's tons of little quotes like that out there, some of which even contradict other helpfiles/documents.  On one document it says elves are nomadic and it goes into detail to explain why.  In another, it says "Well, they're not really nomadic, they just look that way to non-elves."  This was probably an addendum added later because people realized making a coded NOMADIC tribe is basically impossible.  I'm exaggerating this for the sake of argument, so please don't throw me quotes from the elven help files saying "Nyah nyah, you're wrong!"  You get the idea.

So what if it says magickers are hated and feared?  I could find you another doc which says Vivadu elementalists are revered and highly sought after too.

I'm not saying we should all blatantly disregard documentation, but you have to take that shit with a grain of salt and translate accordingly.

[Ender]

Generally the feeling in Allanak is that elementalists are the tools of the templarate, and only the bravest, most desperate, or the most foolish of the general populace.

In Allanak I always felt that should the Templarate revoke the Magickers protected status that the general populace of Allanak would rise up in an angry mob slaughtering gemmers left and right.

The general populace is uneducated and superstisious.  They don't know what Magickers are capable of.  Magickers get blamed for everything from disease, infant deaths, to bad weather.  Rumors persist that they have evil rituals where they drink the blood of innocents and eat babies.

This is all ofcourse my opinion.  

And does this assumption make playing a magicker difficult?  Yes, it does.

Does that mean no one should interact with them at all?  No, it doesn't.

Playing a magicker -should- be a challenge.  And if the player is bored by dealing with the fact a lot of people don't want anything to do with them, then perhaps the role isn't the right role for them.

To Bestatte's post below, I agree, but it depends on the personality of the character.   A passive-aggressive person that is deadly afraid of magickers, might do something like that.  

And on the same token some people might get riled up enough to do something if a magicker walks into their bar, because they might curse the tavern with evil.

[Bestatte]

Generally the feeling in Allanak is that elementalists are the tools of the templarate, and only the bravest, most desperate, or the most foolish of the general populace.

In Allanak I always felt that should the Templarate revoke the Magickers protected status that the general populace of Allanak would rise up in an angry mob slaughtering gemmers left and right.

The general populace is uneducated and superstisious.  They don't know what Magickers are capable of.  Magickers get blamed for everything from disease, infant deaths, to bad weather.  Rumors persist that they have evil rituals where they drink the blood of innocents and eat babies.

Heh - well if that was the case - I think the LAST thing anyone would want to do is piss off a magicker. Better make nice to this gemmer - or he'll suck your blood - or contact his cronies and have them eat your children.

Goes both ways huh? I wouldn't even -attempt- to show any hostility toward a magicker, unless I knew all about what they can and cannot do - AND knew that my skills could kill him faster than his spells could kill me.

I might plot and scheme and educate myself on the subject - but in the meantime that magicker's gonna think I'm his best buddy, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

[Akaramu]

Actually, some people who agree are not posting because everything has been said and they dont feel like turning the thread into a 10 page monster by simply repeating the same points over.

Could this thread be locked?

We are just beating a dead horse now.

[Agent_137]

We are just beating a dead horse now.

You can just keep your sick pastimes to yourself! I refuse to be a part of beastiality AND necrophilia!






:mrgreen:

[JollyGreenGiant]

While you can never really parallel an encounter with a magicker in a game with something in real life, I find it helpful to look at the docs and try to find some rough equivalent.  My personal take on it is that it'd be the social equivalent of an average, clean-living (at least on the surface), white-collar businessman interacting with a particularly sleazy drug dealer who is well known to be a dealer.  

There are quite a few takes on that scenario.  Maybe both of them went to high school together, so once in a while, they exchange a few meaningless pleasantries, but it's always uncomfortable, tense, and maybe a bit fearful for the businessman, and he never sticks around for long.  Maybe the businessman is horrified, disgusted, or just feels socially superior to the dealer, and treats him with commensurate scorn, derision, and a healthy dose of fear.  Or maybe, the dealer is that businessman's dealer, and they interact, but it's not something the businessman would -ever- want coming out in public... and again, however else they interact, the businessman is probably going to treat his dealer like a loaded gun pointed at his head.

Again, not meant to be a perfect parallel, but that's roughly how I see it.

[Stroker]

but it's not something the businessman would -ever- want coming out in public...

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

I know everything's been covered but I'll add my two sids anyway.

Magickers are hated and feared, true.
Unless you're a mindbender, you don't know why people would associate with magickers.
I have not seen Akaramu's character show any open disdain when I have been around her which is a pretty fair amount so to Akaramu I say, practice what you preach.

I have a theory as to why most people don't do the whole fuck you filthy  magicker it publically.

It's easier to say "Be an asshole to the magickers!" than to do it. Would the militia person still be an asshole if he didn't have the city backing him?  Of course he'll say yes but I don't know for sure anyone can say. I've played with that person before and I can tell you that not once did any of the characters I have ever played with them show open hatred towards magicks? Coincidence?

I prefer to err in the side of caution. Think "filthy magicker" and act outwardly indifferent or even friendly. Why? Because that motherkanker can fry me with his evil magicks and I'm not willing to take that chance because I'm not stupid (or backed by the militia).

People in clans that hire and accept magickers are put in a really delicate situation because the fact is that with loyal service comes loyalty and trust. You don't know what thet magicker has done to earn that trust and you don't know if he or she is trusted more than you are, or liked more than you are. People in a clan that has magickers learn to outwardly tolerate them.

Things are rarely what they seem to be on Arm, be it Tuluk or Allanak. Don't assume to know the motives behind a character's actions and focus on your roleplay.  Bitch sessions like this just make me wanna make an uber friendly war-mage/bard with a desire to love and be loved and never use their filthy magicks to destroy... just to piss off or fry the bitchers.

[Stroker]

I fully agree, good point. However, I would still enjoy more discrimination displayed in-game by the denizens of either city-states.

[Anonymous]

I say the same thing everytime a thread like this pops up, so excuse me for repeating myself.

If I'm sitting at a deli and some skinny crackhead comes and sits at the bar I'm going to do my best to get away from him regardless of whether or not he tries to talk to me.

If Big Vinny Two Balls the local mafia capo comes and sits next to me I'm going to be scared as ever, but you know what I'll do?  I'll talk to him, laugh at his jokes, funny or not, and just do my best to make a gracious exit.  But I sure as hell am not going to treat him with disdain.  I don't want to have my knees broke in some alleyway.

I think it goes much the same with how people treat elves and magickers.  With elves you don't want them stealing your sid.  With magickers you don't want them turning you into dust while you sleep.  Or making you a mindless zombie, etc, etc.

In general, people hate and disdain elves, but hate and fear magickers.  The resulting behavior should be wildly different.

[Akaramu]

Like I pointed out before, I havent seen the "Krath I better not piss him off" friendliness. I've seen people asking gemmed how their magick works, what they can do, and leave the city with them to watch their show. As well as -obvious- befriending, over more than just one occasion, where realistically all the VNPCs in a tavern would have started to point fingers at the ungemmed person.

There were more examples but I'm honestly too tired to remember right now.

Again, I realize some people have valid IC reasons. But almost everyone? I'm surprised the tavern in question wasnt subject to a rumor on its own yet, and losing customers because of folks naming it the "gemmed and gemmed buddy den".

[sjanimal]

Dear Friends,

It seems to me that a couple days ago Akaramu posted something that, if it were better phrased, would have gone:

"In my opinion, it would contribute to a more believable atmosphere if people put a slight bit more space between themselves and magickers."

It seems to me that about five people have been jumping down his throat since then.  To me, this seems like a symptom of an overall pattern of devensiveness.  What disturbs me is that I happen to know that some of these peeps are fairly chill IRL and fairly decent role-players.

I don't think there is any need to get defensive.  I think we should try to understand what he said, and then look inside ourselves to see if there is anything we can do to make his role-playing experience more fun.  Would it hurt to put a little more space around magickers?  If it would, then you probably shouldn't.

Personally, I don't like it when people rain on my parade, so I will do my small part to act a little sketchier around mages.  I'll treat it the way some people treat genetics or nanotechnology:  interesting yet scary.
I won't take it too far, and I'll do it mainly to make the game more fun for another player.  I think his request is reasonable, and I'd like to think he would honor a similar request from me.

NeWaYz.

-sjanimal

[Angela Christine]

There is a difference between disagreeing and being defensive.

A disagreement is not a good reason to lock a thread.  If you don't want people to discuss the topic, don't start the thread in the first place.

The documentation says a lot of things, some of it contridictory.  When there is a conflict, I believe the primary helpfile documentation takes precidence, because any documantion not available INSIDE the game is strictly second-class, auxillary documentation.  

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for
purposes of combat.

So someone is employing mages, eh?

The mages' powers usually lie in deception and
secrecy, and are oft found having an aversion towards
society, preferring to live alone or with others of their kind.  

Oh, so shadow elementalists in particular prefer to live alone or with others of their own kind, which might indicate that many other mages don't like to live alone and like to hang out with others not of their own kind.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or
scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective
magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also
be invaluable as travelling companions because of their
abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests
during long journeys.

Employed as part of armies and scouting groups.  Invaluable travel companions.  Obviously those sentences could not exist unless someone was willing to HIRE them.  The Templarate may have a virtual lock on armies, but plenty of people have scouts, and many travel.

Not only will the
general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other
elementalists seek to drive them from existance.

So the general populace distrusts void elementalists, eh?  Distrusts.  Not, say, hates and seeks to throw dung at them at every opportuntity?  Not runs screaming or burns down taverns void elementalists are known to patronize?

Employment is only found in some other job, as their
abilities aren't generally desired by few but those seeking
quick movement of masses of people.

So Nilazi are employed as things other than mages.  Hmm, that implies that they *are* still employed, and that other mages *are* employed for their magickal abilities.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on
journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and
as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.

Highly employable, worth incredible sums of money.  Cool.

Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will
consider hiring a water elementalist.

Widespread unease.  UNEASE.  Oooh, I feel uneasy.  Not terrified, not filled with hate, uneasy.

Even less than sun mages, however, wind
mages are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability
to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his/her
mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.

Not trusted.  Ok, I don't trust 'em.  In Allanak I don't much trust anyone, but I really don't trust this guy.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to
sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a
mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an
absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be
sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at
which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Sell their spells for a good profit, to someone.  Absolutely invaluable ally, to someone.

The elementalist helpfiles strongly imply that there is a place where distrusted but accepted, somewhere.


And now the big boy:

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and
generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are
tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

In Allanak, magickers are required to register their presence with the Templarate immediately, and to wear a marker of their status for the rest of their lives. (This marker is supposedly a black gem worn at the neck.) As such, registered magickers in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city.

In Tuluk, fear and hatred of magick among the populace are widespread, in no small part due to the destruction of Old Tuluk by a magickal cataclysm. Known magickers of any sort are killed on sight. Any magickers who do attempt to live out their lives in Tuluk do so in secrecy, with a never-ending
fear of being discovered and put to death.

Magick is hated and feared by commoners.  Magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted."  Magickers are tolerated, feared and distrusted.

So, "in Allanak have the same rights as do the mundane citizens of the city" that seems clear.

"In Tuluk, fear and hatred of magick among the populace are
widespread, in no small part due to the destruction of Old
Tuluk by a magickal cataclysm."  Ah, so Tulukis are the ones that "hate and fear" magickers, because they have a damned good reason to.  Allanak has had bad things happen because of mages, and good things happen because of mages, but no cataclysmic things.  Now even the good things were kind of scary, which is why gemmed mages are regarded with unease and distrust in Allanak.  Unease and distrust can be overcome, you can earn trust, and unease is hardly a deal breaker.


So what does this mean?  Dunno.  



AC

[Agent_137]

I question the value of ingame help documentation.

Remember the earlier incarnations of this game, where stone elementalist half giants roamed free, and halflings liked to drink Flame in the firestorm bar of tuluk.

Maybe some are left over.

Maybe they aren't.

Just food for thought.

[Angela Christine]

I question the value of ingame help documentation.

Remember the earlier incarnations of this game, where stone elementalist half giants roamed free, and halflings liked to drink Flame in the firestorm bar of tuluk.

Maybe some are left over.

Maybe they aren't.

Just food for thought.

I thought of that.  The helpfiles are not hard to change, and most of them are very short.  This topic has come up before, often.  It isn't like someone finding a steel sword in a forgotten gith village deep in the wilderness, an artifact of earlier days that hadn't been fixed because literally no one remembered it was there to begin with.  

Either the helpfiles are accurate, or the staff is deliberately decieving players and potential players.  


AC

[Angela Christine]

Oh, and don't forget "The Ladies Love a Stone Mage".

A grey-eyed bard says, in northern-accented sirihish:
    "I will now perform, 'The Ladies Love a Stone Mage .'"

>Several patrons cheer boisterously as a grey-eyed bard begins a rowdy tune.

It isn't exactly the sort of song that would become popular in a totally magiphobic society.  

When is the last time you heard a popular song about the sexual prowess of an abortion doctor or a homosexual?


AC

[Lazloth]

YMCA?

[Seeker]

Lazloth Rocks.

[Cenghiz]

When is the last time you heard a popular song about the sexual prowess of an abortion doctor or a homosexual?

George Michael "Outside"?

Yep! I totally agree with AC. SO; the commoners should distrust a little more, as I stated from the beginning. They should not say "Hi!" and offer a drink for nothing. But.... Why didn't any Kadian or Salarri hire any rukkians to empower their hunters? I had a trusted rukkian once. He was employed by a merchant, OK, but it was for different personal purposes. I believe more houses should be willing to hire magickers to aid in some tasks, temporarily or permanently.

[MSM]

I don't like waking up.

So I don't read wake up call posts.

They're long.

[Forest Junkie]

If houses besides certain ones I won't mention would attempt to hire out magickers, I would definitely be playing in Allanak more than I have in the past.