another odd question (altenative lifestyles)

[bioproject]

I was thinking, at some point, about playing a homosexual character.  What's the, general, stance about sexual deviance in the Zanthalas (or is that too IC).

[Mar]

Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant.

Look at  http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html, there is written more about it.

[X-D]

There is no such thing as "sexual deviance in the Zanthalas " to put it simply.

[Dakkon Black]

Some desert elf tribes have kanks... and we all know d-elves like to walk everywhere so....

[Pantoufle]

What's the, general, stance about sexual deviance in the Zanthalas (or is that too IC).

Hah hah.  Yeah, dude.  You better be careful.  I think I hear the IC Fascists marching this way.  Quick, look out!

There is no such thing as "sexual deviance in the Zanthalas " to put it simply.

Sure there is.  I'm quite certain the sexual practices of, say, a Haruch Kemad elf could be considered deviant and taboo for the human norm.  It just depends on the individual and/or group in question.  Inbreeding, for example, is practiced by some cultures in game and vehemently frowned upon by others.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There is no sexual practice that uniformly is abhorrant throughout all of Zalanthas. That is a more correct statement.

[Bestatte]

I would say the _general_ take on things is as such:

Homosexuality, while not very productive as far as population growth is concerned, is not considered taboo. It might not be acceptable by this or that group or individual, it might seem an eccentricity among this or that group or individual, but -generally- I don't think anyone would make a fuss about it one way or another.

The same goes for other sexual practices among like-race people. There is more taboo, for instance, in a dwarf and a human having sex for fun or falling in love, than there would be in a dwarven male getting off with another dwarven male - or a dwarven female in bed with two dwarven males at the same time.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Hrm, a toatlly hairless orgy of short people...you just gave me my idea for my next role!

[Pantoufle]

There is more taboo, for instance, in a dwarf and a human having sex for fun or falling in love, than there would be in a dwarven male getting off with another dwarven male - or a dwarven female in bed with two dwarven males at the same time.

But see that right there is a sexual deviancy, thereby proving that such things do exist on Zalanthas.  It almost sounds to me like ya'll are deathly afraid of there being any sort of anti-homosexuality in game, but anything else (like being anti-incest, for example) is ok.  Not that I really care one way or the other, I'm just making an observation.

The original question was if there are different sexual practices considered deviant or taboo in game.  Homosexuality is just one example and it needn't be trounced upon as though it were the end all, be all of "sexual deviancy".  Honestly, I couldn't possibly be more reminded of the fact that homosexuality is widely accepted amongst Zalanthan culture.  But that's not the question here.  If you use Bestatte's example above, that right there is one example of what may be considered as sexually deviant by many people.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. I guess all my chars are nearly bisexual. Males would accept pleasure from a handsome male, and females would accept another female's 'help'. It's a harsh world, man! There's not much stuff to enjoy. I guess sex would always be acceptable by a usual commoner.
And AFAIK, the documentation claims that some prefer males, some prefer females, and it's normal.
Just my two horny silver coins.

[Pantoufle]

So if I made a character who *gasp* was not aroused by the notion of copulation with the same sex, would (s)he be abnormal?  I can accept the notion of sexual preferences being no big thing, but that should also assume that not everyone is gay or bisexual, realize.  By the same token, one could argue that pediphilism would not be considered a big deal in the Zalanthan culture either.

[Anonymous]

The catamite NPC suggests that pedophilia is not a mortal sin on Zalanthas.

[UnderSeven]

Some of our personalities do escape into the game.  Like many people may have feelings about certain practices and probably wouldn't play the role. More percisely, yes a catamite does exist, but I don't plan to play a char that actally practices in that, at least if they do it's all virtual when I'm OFFLINE.  

What's my point?  Well you should ask conscent if you are going to rp out anything of the sort. Otherwise eh.. the helpfiles document preetty well what's oky nd isn't.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am anti-homosexual in RL. (Sorry, but that's the way I am. Although I work very hard to be tolerant, I do not like it.) In game, however, my characters habitually look upon any homo-sexual as a person just like them. Incest and pediphilia are simply sex. Some sub-cultures of Zalanthas no doubt have beliefs and practices which differ from this 'common sexuality' practice.

In the long run, however, there is no sexual practice in Zalanthas that is frowned upon universally on the same level that homosexualality and pedophilia are in our own, modern day world.

[Angela Christine]

I think that rape would be frowned upon in most of the known world, regardles of whether the victim is and adult or child, male or female.  Naturally rape is a crime that can only be practiced against a person, and some cultures may not regard people of other races, other tribes, or slaves to be persons.

The same way that not every hetrosexual man is a rapist, not every pedophile is a child molestor.  

I think that, in the cities at least, there wouldn't be a universal taboo against child prostitutes.  As long as you have the child's permission, or the permission of the child's keeper or owner, then you are good to go.  As long as the relationship is consentual there isn't a problem.  What consenting people do in private is their own buisness.


In the cities there is very little sanctity of the body, for commoners at least.  There is the constant threat of slavery, and even without slavery the idea that the government can do anything they want with your body.  If a Templar asks you to their bed chamber, or to go to war, or to go work in the mines, you probably aren't going to stand up and refuse.  Sex isn't a big deal.

Now with adult-child physical relationships there are some size problems, depending on what activities you enage in, and that can still cause physical and possibly psychological dammage.  If a youngster is enaging in sex acts they find painful and not at all pleasurable, even if the acts were voluntary, then they may be more reluctant to explore any kind of sex acts later in life.  

But in general the psychological damage is probably increased in societies that have a pedophilia taboo.  If the activity is taboo, repulsive and repugnant in your society, then it has to be kept secret.  That need to keep it secret may involve threats, or a sense of shame and guilt.  Because it is secret they can't talk about it, and people like to talk about their relationships.  When they do talk about it the adults around them will probably react poorly, and the kid will assume that the anger and shock is directed at the kid himself, rather than the adult.  A less often agknowledged problem is that often "inappropriate touching" can feel good, because the nerves and such are already in place.  (Some pre-pubesent children discover masturbation all on their own.)  Some child molestors do not physically hurt their victims, instead giving the kid gifts and doing fun (pleasurable) things together, and that can leave the child feeling confused and guilty when the "molestor" is caught and prosecuted.  In effect, sometimes the reaction of trusted adults and the experience of being interogated and giving testemony can be much more traumatic than the acts of the pedophile.  

Without the taboo, the secondary dammage isn't brought into play.  Even a mildly unpleasant experience may be shrugged off if nobody thinks it is a big deal, or your family is happy because you did a good job and made enough money that everybody gets to eat tonight.  It might be like getting a skinned knee and a twisted ankle, not fun, but not something that scars you for life either.      


That doesn't mean that I think everyone in the city is doing it, or even that it is a common thing.  Most people probably prefer an attractive, adult member of the opposite sex when they can get it.  But people probably don't freak out when they hear that someone prefers youngsters, oldsters, people of the opposite sex, people of the same sex, or group sex.  They don't freak out if they find out you are engaged in a life-long monogamous relationship, or if the they find out that you never have sex with the same person twice.  Most people really don't care one way or the other.

Now if you hire a catamite and have him dress up like a halfling, then that might raise a few eyebrows.  


AC

[Cuusardo]

Pleasure is pleasure, and some gladly accept it from anyone or anything in a world with very little stigma attatched to sex.

[jhunter]

I think that rape would be frowned upon in most of the known world, regardles of whether the victim is and adult or child, male or female. Naturally rape is a crime that can only be practiced against a person, and some cultures may not regard people of other races, other tribes, or slaves to be persons.

In the cities there is very little sanctity of the body, for commoners at least.

Seems to me like you are contradicting yourself...if there is little or no sanctity of the body...why would people make a big deal of rape?

I'd have to disagree with the assessment that rape would  be frowned upon in the same way as RL, sure those that are friends and family of the victim might do something about it, but I doubt the templarate or militia of a city would do shit IMO unless it was a noble who was the victim or there was something in it for them.
I think to assume that on Zalanthas rape being a crime is imposing a RL norm upon the world in the same way that having homosexuality being considered deviant behavior would be.

Remember, in the history of the world it really wasn't all that long ago that the law did nothing about rape and didn't consider it important enough to waste their time on. It's only a crime in our world currently, it wasn't always a crime.

Not everyone would do this, but in a way I think rape fits the harsh brutality of Arm...you want something bad enough...you get it by whatever means necessary.

[Agent_137]

i agree, in zalanthas, rape's level of sin of depend upon the who.

[Angela Christine]

Assault is a crime, even in Zalanthas.  Rape is a type of physical assault.  It might not be considered worse than a mugging, but it would still be frowned upon.


AC

[Cenghiz]

Rape's kinda stealing.. Getting pleasure without paying for it.

[John]

Rape's kinda stealing..

It is stealing if the person is a hooker

Also, the docs say

To make things worse, most half-elves have little or no support from their parents. They are typically the result of violence - whether it be rape, or prejudice upon those that care for them.

This does make rape seem bad. Why is rape bad though? Because it's doing something against your personal wish. But so is slavery and no-one other then untrained slaves care about that.

So I think that's how bad rape is. It's like slavery. You would probably object to those you know personally being enslaved. Yet you don't care about all those thousands of slaves that live in the city. You wouldn't be repulsed by someone who is a slave-dealer.

Same can be said for rape. You would probably object to those you know personally being raped. Yet you don't care about those thousands of rape-victims that live in the city. You wouldn't be repulsed by someone who is a rapist.

Just my 2 'sid *plink plink*

[sarahjc]

As far as rape is concerned, I would have to say it is a bad thing overall and should be frowned upon. Almost as bad as murder. I would say that a violation of ones body without permission as an act of aggression should not be looked upon as Ok or "the Norm" by anyone's standards in any society, and is most certainly "rape"

Would a commoners rape be really noticed by anyone other then their family and friends.. Nah. They may get some help if they have a highly ranked military family member or are an employee of  great house and work closely with nobles. But would a nobles or a rich merchants, Yes. Rape is not taken lightly in any society. It is an act of violence and it is a crime.

Now, what constitutes rape is a different story, same as what constitutes pedophilia as AC so eloquently put forth. The taboos that people place on society are different in different cultures. In western culture a young girl being taken against her will by an uncle while her parents watch on may seem repulsive and wrong to us, and would constitute rape. That girl may have mental scars because if it. In another culture it may be a right of passage and she may be praised after the fact, and have no mental scars.  But I am way off topic with this..

As far as the original post is concerned. I think it is fine and it is known that sexuality is not an issue at all on Zalanthas. Though my PC prefers the company of men, she has been known to flirt with women as well, and sees no issues with it. She certainly has never be chastised for the behavior nor frowned upon for it..

[ShaLeah]

Warning: I am not advocating rape.

I would say that a violation of ones body without permission as an act of aggression should not be looked upon as Ok or "the Norm" by anyone's standards in any society, and is most certainly "rape"

Zalanthas is not just any society and I can't say that I agree.

Rape is not taken lightly in any society. It is an act of violence and it is a crime.

This is Zalanthas, not the real world.  This is one example of real world mindsets seeping into the game.  


Rape is about control, not about sexuality. Rapists don't get their rocks off on ejaculating, they get their rocks off in forcing their victim. For Ages Zalanthas has been ruled by ruthless beings who don't bat a lash at taking what they want and that includes citizens.  I would be more inclined to think of it like this:
Any forced (or coerced for that matter) sexual intercourse by a person of power would simply be seen as taking, "The Lord Templar/Senior Advisor/Lady Commander has taken me". In most cases, the taken would sadly accept his or her new role and try to get their Taker's favor, the smart ones anyway.  Only a really stupid person would refuse the powers that be, the consequences are, more than likely, death. Retaliation? Please, you have to have power to fight power. A mere commoner isn't going to have that kind of pull. Even if it -is- rape, and by our standards it is, the damage would be to the victim and those close to them, as sarahjc said but even if your mate is livid that you were taken by Lord Templar Fuckalot, he's not likely to attempt an assassination, much less afford one or find someone to do it. In this case, where the law of the land is the perpetrator, it would not be a crime.
Any forced sexual intercourse by a person of your equal status or below you would be considered rape. A rinthi elf raping a noble's aide, a raider raping a travelling merchant, a hunter suddenly turning on his partner. In these cases, on Zalanthas mind you, I would see the word rape as more appropriate. Commoners normally don't have to fear other commoners, there's enough high power to fear after all. In this case, where your equal or lesser risks the wrath of your Lord or House, it would most likely be considered a crime to those whose goods were damaged.

That's just what I think.

ShaLeah

[Meatwad]

So what you are saying, ShaLeah, is it would be fine to have a character rape other characters, for the other people would just see that as normal and acceptable?  And that character wouldn't go to jail?  If that is the case on Zalanthas I'd make a character that would rape every person coming out of a tavern right there in the street.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think what she's saying is that if you get raped by somebody higher up on the social ladder, it isn't great but there isn't much you can do about it.