another odd question (altenative lifestyles)

[bioproject]

I was thinking, at some point, about playing a homosexual character.  What's the, general, stance about sexual deviance in the Zanthalas (or is that too IC).

[Mar]

Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant.

Look at  http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html, there is written more about it.

[X-D]

There is no such thing as "sexual deviance in the Zanthalas " to put it simply.

[Dakkon Black]

Some desert elf tribes have kanks... and we all know d-elves like to walk everywhere so....

[Pantoufle]

What's the, general, stance about sexual deviance in the Zanthalas (or is that too IC).

Hah hah.  Yeah, dude.  You better be careful.  I think I hear the IC Fascists marching this way.  Quick, look out!

There is no such thing as "sexual deviance in the Zanthalas " to put it simply.

Sure there is.  I'm quite certain the sexual practices of, say, a Haruch Kemad elf could be considered deviant and taboo for the human norm.  It just depends on the individual and/or group in question.  Inbreeding, for example, is practiced by some cultures in game and vehemently frowned upon by others.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There is no sexual practice that uniformly is abhorrant throughout all of Zalanthas. That is a more correct statement.

[Bestatte]

I would say the _general_ take on things is as such:

Homosexuality, while not very productive as far as population growth is concerned, is not considered taboo. It might not be acceptable by this or that group or individual, it might seem an eccentricity among this or that group or individual, but -generally- I don't think anyone would make a fuss about it one way or another.

The same goes for other sexual practices among like-race people. There is more taboo, for instance, in a dwarf and a human having sex for fun or falling in love, than there would be in a dwarven male getting off with another dwarven male - or a dwarven female in bed with two dwarven males at the same time.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Hrm, a toatlly hairless orgy of short people...you just gave me my idea for my next role!

[Pantoufle]

There is more taboo, for instance, in a dwarf and a human having sex for fun or falling in love, than there would be in a dwarven male getting off with another dwarven male - or a dwarven female in bed with two dwarven males at the same time.

But see that right there is a sexual deviancy, thereby proving that such things do exist on Zalanthas.  It almost sounds to me like ya'll are deathly afraid of there being any sort of anti-homosexuality in game, but anything else (like being anti-incest, for example) is ok.  Not that I really care one way or the other, I'm just making an observation.

The original question was if there are different sexual practices considered deviant or taboo in game.  Homosexuality is just one example and it needn't be trounced upon as though it were the end all, be all of "sexual deviancy".  Honestly, I couldn't possibly be more reminded of the fact that homosexuality is widely accepted amongst Zalanthan culture.  But that's not the question here.  If you use Bestatte's example above, that right there is one example of what may be considered as sexually deviant by many people.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. I guess all my chars are nearly bisexual. Males would accept pleasure from a handsome male, and females would accept another female's 'help'. It's a harsh world, man! There's not much stuff to enjoy. I guess sex would always be acceptable by a usual commoner.
And AFAIK, the documentation claims that some prefer males, some prefer females, and it's normal.
Just my two horny silver coins.

[Pantoufle]

So if I made a character who *gasp* was not aroused by the notion of copulation with the same sex, would (s)he be abnormal?  I can accept the notion of sexual preferences being no big thing, but that should also assume that not everyone is gay or bisexual, realize.  By the same token, one could argue that pediphilism would not be considered a big deal in the Zalanthan culture either.

[Anonymous]

The catamite NPC suggests that pedophilia is not a mortal sin on Zalanthas.

[UnderSeven]

Some of our personalities do escape into the game.  Like many people may have feelings about certain practices and probably wouldn't play the role. More percisely, yes a catamite does exist, but I don't plan to play a char that actally practices in that, at least if they do it's all virtual when I'm OFFLINE.  

What's my point?  Well you should ask conscent if you are going to rp out anything of the sort. Otherwise eh.. the helpfiles document preetty well what's oky nd isn't.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am anti-homosexual in RL. (Sorry, but that's the way I am. Although I work very hard to be tolerant, I do not like it.) In game, however, my characters habitually look upon any homo-sexual as a person just like them. Incest and pediphilia are simply sex. Some sub-cultures of Zalanthas no doubt have beliefs and practices which differ from this 'common sexuality' practice.

In the long run, however, there is no sexual practice in Zalanthas that is frowned upon universally on the same level that homosexualality and pedophilia are in our own, modern day world.

[Angela Christine]

I think that rape would be frowned upon in most of the known world, regardles of whether the victim is and adult or child, male or female.  Naturally rape is a crime that can only be practiced against a person, and some cultures may not regard people of other races, other tribes, or slaves to be persons.

The same way that not every hetrosexual man is a rapist, not every pedophile is a child molestor.  

I think that, in the cities at least, there wouldn't be a universal taboo against child prostitutes.  As long as you have the child's permission, or the permission of the child's keeper or owner, then you are good to go.  As long as the relationship is consentual there isn't a problem.  What consenting people do in private is their own buisness.


In the cities there is very little sanctity of the body, for commoners at least.  There is the constant threat of slavery, and even without slavery the idea that the government can do anything they want with your body.  If a Templar asks you to their bed chamber, or to go to war, or to go work in the mines, you probably aren't going to stand up and refuse.  Sex isn't a big deal.

Now with adult-child physical relationships there are some size problems, depending on what activities you enage in, and that can still cause physical and possibly psychological dammage.  If a youngster is enaging in sex acts they find painful and not at all pleasurable, even if the acts were voluntary, then they may be more reluctant to explore any kind of sex acts later in life.  

But in general the psychological damage is probably increased in societies that have a pedophilia taboo.  If the activity is taboo, repulsive and repugnant in your society, then it has to be kept secret.  That need to keep it secret may involve threats, or a sense of shame and guilt.  Because it is secret they can't talk about it, and people like to talk about their relationships.  When they do talk about it the adults around them will probably react poorly, and the kid will assume that the anger and shock is directed at the kid himself, rather than the adult.  A less often agknowledged problem is that often "inappropriate touching" can feel good, because the nerves and such are already in place.  (Some pre-pubesent children discover masturbation all on their own.)  Some child molestors do not physically hurt their victims, instead giving the kid gifts and doing fun (pleasurable) things together, and that can leave the child feeling confused and guilty when the "molestor" is caught and prosecuted.  In effect, sometimes the reaction of trusted adults and the experience of being interogated and giving testemony can be much more traumatic than the acts of the pedophile.  

Without the taboo, the secondary dammage isn't brought into play.  Even a mildly unpleasant experience may be shrugged off if nobody thinks it is a big deal, or your family is happy because you did a good job and made enough money that everybody gets to eat tonight.  It might be like getting a skinned knee and a twisted ankle, not fun, but not something that scars you for life either.      


That doesn't mean that I think everyone in the city is doing it, or even that it is a common thing.  Most people probably prefer an attractive, adult member of the opposite sex when they can get it.  But people probably don't freak out when they hear that someone prefers youngsters, oldsters, people of the opposite sex, people of the same sex, or group sex.  They don't freak out if they find out you are engaged in a life-long monogamous relationship, or if the they find out that you never have sex with the same person twice.  Most people really don't care one way or the other.

Now if you hire a catamite and have him dress up like a halfling, then that might raise a few eyebrows.  


AC

[Cuusardo]

Pleasure is pleasure, and some gladly accept it from anyone or anything in a world with very little stigma attatched to sex.

[jhunter]

I think that rape would be frowned upon in most of the known world, regardles of whether the victim is and adult or child, male or female. Naturally rape is a crime that can only be practiced against a person, and some cultures may not regard people of other races, other tribes, or slaves to be persons.

In the cities there is very little sanctity of the body, for commoners at least.

Seems to me like you are contradicting yourself...if there is little or no sanctity of the body...why would people make a big deal of rape?

I'd have to disagree with the assessment that rape would  be frowned upon in the same way as RL, sure those that are friends and family of the victim might do something about it, but I doubt the templarate or militia of a city would do shit IMO unless it was a noble who was the victim or there was something in it for them.
I think to assume that on Zalanthas rape being a crime is imposing a RL norm upon the world in the same way that having homosexuality being considered deviant behavior would be.

Remember, in the history of the world it really wasn't all that long ago that the law did nothing about rape and didn't consider it important enough to waste their time on. It's only a crime in our world currently, it wasn't always a crime.

Not everyone would do this, but in a way I think rape fits the harsh brutality of Arm...you want something bad enough...you get it by whatever means necessary.

[Agent_137]

i agree, in zalanthas, rape's level of sin of depend upon the who.

[Angela Christine]

Assault is a crime, even in Zalanthas.  Rape is a type of physical assault.  It might not be considered worse than a mugging, but it would still be frowned upon.


AC

[Cenghiz]

Rape's kinda stealing.. Getting pleasure without paying for it.

[John]

Rape's kinda stealing..

It is stealing if the person is a hooker

Also, the docs say

To make things worse, most half-elves have little or no support from their parents. They are typically the result of violence - whether it be rape, or prejudice upon those that care for them.

This does make rape seem bad. Why is rape bad though? Because it's doing something against your personal wish. But so is slavery and no-one other then untrained slaves care about that.

So I think that's how bad rape is. It's like slavery. You would probably object to those you know personally being enslaved. Yet you don't care about all those thousands of slaves that live in the city. You wouldn't be repulsed by someone who is a slave-dealer.

Same can be said for rape. You would probably object to those you know personally being raped. Yet you don't care about those thousands of rape-victims that live in the city. You wouldn't be repulsed by someone who is a rapist.

Just my 2 'sid *plink plink*

[sarahjc]

As far as rape is concerned, I would have to say it is a bad thing overall and should be frowned upon. Almost as bad as murder. I would say that a violation of ones body without permission as an act of aggression should not be looked upon as Ok or "the Norm" by anyone's standards in any society, and is most certainly "rape"

Would a commoners rape be really noticed by anyone other then their family and friends.. Nah. They may get some help if they have a highly ranked military family member or are an employee of  great house and work closely with nobles. But would a nobles or a rich merchants, Yes. Rape is not taken lightly in any society. It is an act of violence and it is a crime.

Now, what constitutes rape is a different story, same as what constitutes pedophilia as AC so eloquently put forth. The taboos that people place on society are different in different cultures. In western culture a young girl being taken against her will by an uncle while her parents watch on may seem repulsive and wrong to us, and would constitute rape. That girl may have mental scars because if it. In another culture it may be a right of passage and she may be praised after the fact, and have no mental scars.  But I am way off topic with this..

As far as the original post is concerned. I think it is fine and it is known that sexuality is not an issue at all on Zalanthas. Though my PC prefers the company of men, she has been known to flirt with women as well, and sees no issues with it. She certainly has never be chastised for the behavior nor frowned upon for it..

[ShaLeah]

Warning: I am not advocating rape.

I would say that a violation of ones body without permission as an act of aggression should not be looked upon as Ok or "the Norm" by anyone's standards in any society, and is most certainly "rape"

Zalanthas is not just any society and I can't say that I agree.

Rape is not taken lightly in any society. It is an act of violence and it is a crime.

This is Zalanthas, not the real world.  This is one example of real world mindsets seeping into the game.  


Rape is about control, not about sexuality. Rapists don't get their rocks off on ejaculating, they get their rocks off in forcing their victim. For Ages Zalanthas has been ruled by ruthless beings who don't bat a lash at taking what they want and that includes citizens.  I would be more inclined to think of it like this:
Any forced (or coerced for that matter) sexual intercourse by a person of power would simply be seen as taking, "The Lord Templar/Senior Advisor/Lady Commander has taken me". In most cases, the taken would sadly accept his or her new role and try to get their Taker's favor, the smart ones anyway.  Only a really stupid person would refuse the powers that be, the consequences are, more than likely, death. Retaliation? Please, you have to have power to fight power. A mere commoner isn't going to have that kind of pull. Even if it -is- rape, and by our standards it is, the damage would be to the victim and those close to them, as sarahjc said but even if your mate is livid that you were taken by Lord Templar Fuckalot, he's not likely to attempt an assassination, much less afford one or find someone to do it. In this case, where the law of the land is the perpetrator, it would not be a crime.
Any forced sexual intercourse by a person of your equal status or below you would be considered rape. A rinthi elf raping a noble's aide, a raider raping a travelling merchant, a hunter suddenly turning on his partner. In these cases, on Zalanthas mind you, I would see the word rape as more appropriate. Commoners normally don't have to fear other commoners, there's enough high power to fear after all. In this case, where your equal or lesser risks the wrath of your Lord or House, it would most likely be considered a crime to those whose goods were damaged.

That's just what I think.

ShaLeah

[Meatwad]

So what you are saying, ShaLeah, is it would be fine to have a character rape other characters, for the other people would just see that as normal and acceptable?  And that character wouldn't go to jail?  If that is the case on Zalanthas I'd make a character that would rape every person coming out of a tavern right there in the street.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think what she's saying is that if you get raped by somebody higher up on the social ladder, it isn't great but there isn't much you can do about it.

[ShaLeah]

So what you are saying, ShaLeah, is it would be fine to have a character rape other characters, for the other people would just see that as normal and acceptable?  And that character wouldn't go to jail?  If that is the case on Zalanthas I'd make a character that would rape every person coming out of a tavern right there in the street.

Warning: I am not advocating rape.

As far as I know, every city board has a post on it about the laws of that city. Not one of them mentions rape as a crime.
Go ahead and make that character, I challenge you. Make a low rinthi elf that's a rapist, then make a noble's aide, then a house merchant, then a noble and finally a templar. Each one of them rapists, each one, I guarantee you, will be dealt with differently.

I think what she's saying is that if you get raped by somebody higher up on the social ladder, it isn't great but there isn't much you can do about it.

It's nice to know someone got my point.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Actually, before Tuluk was liberated, the Allanaki forces occupying it stated that rape was illegal.

I can only imagine that rape is also illegal in Allanak by extension.  It -is- the same as assault, so whether or not you get away with it all depends on how good your contacts are, how discreet you are, and whether or not you are above the law.

[jhunter]

I think it was illegal at the time because the nakkis didn't really want to risk more mingling between northern and southern blood.
Just a possibility.
*shrugs*

[Bestatte]

It doesn't mention that manually removing a noble's toenails and peeling their skin off with a dull blade is illegal either - but that doesn't mean it isn't viewed as a "bad thing" in the citystates.

Just because something isn't specified as being illegal doesn't mean the general public is going to consider it as acceptable behavior.

[Impska]

I know I'm only adding to an off-topic line of discussion, but as far as rape goes:

It doesn't matter if rape is illegal or not in terms of a noble/templar doing it. Nobles and templars are above the law, anyway. But don't for a minute think that if a group of Lord Saths kidnap Lady Borsail and gangbang her in the basement of the Oash estate while the Oash family takes bets on which one fathers her kid, that Borsail isn't going to rain hell on those people for raping their family member. Ditto if they do it to a Lord Borsail.

If they do it to some 13 year old kid from the slums? Once again, nobles are above the law. It's doubtful that anyone much would want to push the issue. And many people likely wouldn't see it as rape.

If Joe Commoner walks into Jane Commoner's house and rapes her, then there's probably not a doubt that it's illegal. Selling sex is a legal business, so as stated above, even if Zalanthans have no concept of rape, they know all about theft. And stealing sex from a free woman (who owns her own body, even if she owns nothing else) would be illegal. Likewise with free men - we all know it can go both ways.

However, I don't think that Zalanthas would necessarily have no concept of rape. And I also suspect it would be formally illegal in civilized areas of the world. I don't think "Zalanthas isn't the real world, so rape might be ok" is really a convincing argument here. Like most crimes in Zalanthas, the victim's rights would fall almost entirely to the victim/perpetrator's relative social status, power and wealth. These things, on an individual basis would decide whether or not it's a crime, and if it is, they will weigh on whether or not the law enforcers react.

[jhunter]

In the eyes of the law, people have rights on Zalanthas? That's a new one to me.

[flurry]

If you can't even subdue someone else in public without having half a dozen guards jump on you, I think it's pretty safe to say that rape would get you arrested too.    For commoners, of course, since the law really only exists for them.

[Impska]

In the eyes of the law, people have rights on Zalanthas? That's a new one to me.

Like most crimes in Zalanthas, the victim's rights would fall almost entirely to the victim/perpetrator's relative social status, power and wealth. These things, on an individual basis would decide whether or not it's a crime, and if it is, they will weigh on whether or not the law enforcers react.

I think I was clear on that in the original post.

[Stroker]

Yes .... they do have rights as long as their pockets are filled with clanking obsidian.

[Stroker]

Just like in real life.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Just like in real life.

You forgot to add "In Communist Russia" at the end of that sentence.

[Stroker]

Actually, corruption is prevalent everywhere.

[EvilRoeSlade]

*puts his hands over his ears and sings the national anthem loudly, like any REAL Patriot would do*

[Cenghiz]

emote launches a few Scuds for EvilRoeSlade's patriots.

[WhiteRanger(logged out)]

Well I actually think rape would be commonly accepted in Zalanthas. If you are half starving to death, you know that almost everyone on the street is willing to put a dagger in your back for five coins, and it happens all of the time, I think rape would just be another passing thing. Sure some people might hold grudges against it personally, but as a society, I dont think anyone would really care if someone held down a whore in the sleeping commons and got a good poke at her, they would probably just say its none of thier business and walk on by. Rape happens all of the time, thats how most half-elves exist, and its sold and practiced as a way of life with the houses that sell slaves. Nobles of Allanak probably get thier fix all of the time by slamming it hard to this or that pretty faced commoner waif/stud. And commoners get the urge to do a little this and that, when they actually have had a meal recently and arent worried about starving, so sure, a little forced pedaphilia would be a nice thing on their leasure time away from worrying about staying alive. If you ask me rape is just a passing thing that happens when the strong, decided to oppress the weak,,,that is Armageddon after all,,,the strong taking from the weak.

[flurry]

In the long run, however, there is no sexual practice in Zalanthas that is frowned upon universally on the same level that homosexualality and pedophilia are in our own, modern day world.

Playing devil's advocate somewhat here...

As far as pedophilia goes - yeah, I agree, that is basically universally taboo and rightly so, and you're probably right that Zalanthas may lack those kinds of universal taboos.

Homosexuality I think is a whole different category, and I don't think in our current world it's anywhere close to universally frowned upon.  In Western culture it might be 50/50.   In Zalanthas I think there are definitely things like that where many people would look down on it, but many would not.   Sex between certain races for example - some people would shrug it off, and some would find it offensive.   Of course it has hard to make the comparison between the two worlds, because in Zalanthas you don't generally have the (good or bad) influences of religion on various issues like this.

[Carnage]

As far as pedophilia goes - yeah, I agree, that is basically universally taboo and rightly so, and you're probably right that Zalanthas may lack those kinds of universal taboos.

Greeks and a few other early cultures didn't feel the same way.

Ninja edit:

http://www.123student.com/law/2502.shtml[/url]"]Sexual abuse of children is not new, and has not always been socially
taboo.  The ancient Greeks and Romans used children for sexual
gratification(Langevin, 1983).  In Greece, it was commonplace for adolescent
males to be forced into sexual relationships with mature males.  This behavior
was normal and not objected to by the child's parents nor the Greek
government(Langevin, 1983).  The Romans encouraged adolescent boys and girls not
to protest being sold into prostitution.  The Roman government even went so far
as to declare a public holiday honoring young prostitutes(Kahr, 1991).

[flurry]

You're right - and in retrospect, there -are- universal taboos in Zalanthas (like the universal aversion among elves to riding), but perhaps not sexual ones.

[Trenidor]

Hey, anyone else hear about Rickie Martin's new mission to get rid of under 18 prostitution? (like it will ever happen world wide, but I'm sure it'll help somehwerE)

[Carnage]

You're right - and in retrospect, there -are- universal taboos in Zalanthas (like the universal aversion among elves to riding), but perhaps not sexual ones.

The basic rule of thumb when it comes to things like this is that if it comes to genders or sex, there's no discrimination. But racism is a-okay.

[John]

Hey, anyone else hear about Rickie Martin's new mission to get rid of under 18 prostitution?

What would he do if he was successful? Well actually, he'd have a whole new bunch of free lady friends. Ooh. That guy is smart   (kidding, please don't kill me)

The basic rule of thumb when it comes to things like this is that if it comes to genders or sex, there's no discrimination. But racism is a-okay.

The day we are racist to races that are as intelligent as our own is the day that will be a valid argument. The day people are encouraged to hate people of a certain colour in the game is the day that will be a valid argument. Until then, saying that just muddies the situation because of how the term race is used in real life.

Earth Race = Humans that are of a particular colour
Zalanthan Race = Different types of species.

We aren't racist in zalanthas. We're specist.

[Agent_137]

semantics.

[Morrolan]

Except elves and humans can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.  That makes them the same species, I believe.

And as for dwarves?  No clue.  What is the species-relationship between donkeys and horses?

Half-giants would be a separate species as they cannot interbreed and produce offspring...which has to do with fertility, not the fact that trying it would be like mating a St. Bernard to a Chihuahua.   :shock:

Morrolan

--EDIT for typos.  Maybe I should have waited until -after- the smoke-break.

[sacac]

I have seen a HG give birth from having sex with another HG.
Mul are dwarves and humans.
elves+humans= Half-breed

[Lazloth]

Except elves and humans can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.  That makes them the same species, I believe.

Biologically speaking, the sterile/fertile halfbreed/hybrid offspring is not a given, contrary to how specie may have been defined when you were in school.  There are conditions where the female (yak-cow) is fertile, while the male is sterile; there are conditions where all offspring (beefalo, wolphin) are interfertile.

[Carnage]

We aren't racist in zalanthas. We're specist.

Uh, Allanak vs. Tuluk? Seems like people are blatantly racist against people from opposite sides of the world, and I'd assume some are racist against tribals as well.

Biologically speaking, the sterile/fertile halfbreed/hybrid offspring is not a given, contrary to how specie may have been defined when you were in school. There are conditions where the female (yak-cow) is fertile, while the male is sterile; there are conditions where all offspring (beefalo, wolphin) are interfertile.

There's an exception to nearly every rule. And it's not a far fetched idea either that humans and elves are the same species. They may look a bit different, but so does a chihuahua and a golden retriever.

[Agent_137]

This is the semantics of biology, seriously, this isn't up for discussion. Some one go whump down their bio text book and read through the species section, post the answer, or go home.

[/thread]

[EvilRoeSlade]

Half-giants would be a separate species as they cannot interbreed and produce offspring...which has to do with fertility, not the fact that trying it would be like mating a St. Bernard to a Chihuahua.   :shock:

Please don't share IC sensitive information on the GDB.

I had fully intended to find that out IG.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I do beleive that Morrolan's information is fully accessible outside of the game and on the website, which typically conjures it as common knowledge, or, rather, common enough to be displayed here on the GBD.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yeah, but now I don't have any excuse!

Bah, who needs one?

Bye.

[naatok]

I haven't seen a staff post on this one.  Perhaps I missed one.  Dunno.

In this one particular case, I WILL draw upon my OOC experience and say that AT THE VERY LEAST....rape is a crime of theft and would be dealt with as such in a society with laws against thievery, assault and murder....like most societies in Zalanthas.

It isn't that Zalanthans would be horrified by hearing about rape...they may quite possibly shrug their shoulders.  Many do so when they hear someone has been beaten unconscious, robbed or murdered.

Is rape a sexually 'deviant' behavior in Zalanthas?  Who the fuck cares?!  It falls under the category of assault and robbery and would be dealt with accordingly....regardless of individual thoughts on the matter.

Rape occurs in 'The Real World', in part, because rapists feel they can physically overpower, and mentally intimidate their victims.  I won't go into all the psychological ramifications of this here.  Sometimes the view is rooted in perceived differences between male/female..such as strengths and weaknesses...sometimes this is a view rooted in the fact that you have five or six trusty lads or lasses to back you up and you feel like humiliating someone because you have experienced humiliation and on some level, feel the person you're raping falls into the 'Ones Responsible' group.

Personally, I view rape as the unholiest of blasphemies.  Sexuality to me is a sacred event to be shared by consenting adults.  I like how my ancestors dealt with rapists.  It was viewed as a theft and an insult and rapists were treated like thieves....strangled and thrown into bogs as a sacrifice to the gods.

As for Zalanthas....ArmageddonMud is a game...but we are all real people.  Some people are VERY sensitive to the subject of rape.  My advice is that we all follow the clearly documented 'Consent' rules of this mud.  Beyond that, use common courtesy and fuck other people's pcs over as you would want them to fuck your pc over.....keeping in mind, of course, that in a world like Zalanthas....you're gonna get fucked over sooner or later!  :twisted:

Just a naughty monkey's two rotten bananas.

[joyofdiscord]

Well, since the other Homosexuality thread was locked with an invitation to add to an older one, and the keyword search turned this up (among about 3 other locked threads   ), and I'd just typed out this monstrous post, I thought I'd put it here, because my own hubris makes me think it might be thought-provoking it least.


WARNING: LONG RAMBLING POST AHEAD

Sexuality on Zalanthas has always seemed such a nebulous and particularly difficult concept to grasp from a "cross-cultural" sort of view where we have to put aside Earth prejudices, which are all we have.

In the case of tribal peoples, absolute high fertility from every single member might not be essential.  There are many examples of tribal or "primitive" peoples on Earth (living in extremely harsh climes) that take measures to limit their population, even including infanticide.  That seems to me just as fitting to Zalanthas' harsh world of limited resources as a "you have to have a lot of kids to keep going."  Gay men also wouldn't affect this, as few men can impregnate many women, and unless 90% of the tribes men were gay to cause inbreeding issues with so few fathers, there wouldn't be a problem.  Whatever percentage of exclusive lesbians might exist would probably be negligible.

It was also brought up in a Sexism thread, someone asserting that tribal peoples might be more sexist, which seemed to me as sort of an unconscious jab at real life non-Western peoples.  IMMs I belive weighed in to say that tribal peoples, along with everyone in the known world, are not sexist.  I don't think it makes any more sense to think that they would stigmatize homophobia, especially when the docs say that homosexuality is not stigmatized.

The "every char is different and my char has a good reason to be anti-gay, sexist, whatever" argument, I don't think holds up, because suddenly you WILL see a lot of Zalanthans with unlikely reasons that provoke them to feel uncomfortable around gays.  In contexts like this, too often, all it really means is every char is different in the same ways that people in real-life North America are different.  At that point, we might as well establish the elven cavalry unit.  

No matter how good a roleplayer someone is, we ALL bring a LOT of our real world cultural background into the game.  This is most evident in the posts with analagies to "common sense" or matters of etiquette when talking about Zalanthan norms and character behaviour.  Many of these common sense notions are lifted directly from North American cultural norms (Tavern Etiquette being a HUGE one, but it pops up everywhere).  They don't even apply outside of North America, as I've seen as I've dealt with some pretty heavy culture shock living in Mexico, and that's in an urban setting in a city with heavy, heavy international influence.  Other parts of the world would be a hundred times worse, and Zalanthas is another matter entirely.

Also, real-world behaviour is still very evident in PC-PC and PC-NPC sexual behaviour and tension.  Every time I've seen a sexual advance in the game, it was an aggressive male trying to get himself a female, and a female trying to judge if he was worthy and/or rebuff his advances.  I'm still new, granted, and I'm POSITIVE people play it the other way often, but I'd be surprised if the above situation wasn't much more common.  Also, jokes about sexuality that I've witnessed among PC's could have come right from a real life locker room, frat house, or coffee shop.

The exclusion of real-life prejudices from Zalanthas is, apart from a great way to take out the ugliness of the real world (and leave plenty of room for more INTERESTING ugliness appropriate to the game world), pretty appropriate to the game setting, IMO.  The common example of skin-color racism: doesn't exist on Zalanthas because there are ELVES which want to rip you off, and arbitrary designations like skin color don't make any sense to pursue.  I think this applies just as well to sexism and homophobia.  What kind of pampered Zalanthan, or helpless busybody are you playing that you can waste the effort to hate you some faggits?

In any case, some aspects of sexuality are inherent in many of our characters' relationships.  Some sort of vague consensus should be reached as to how some of things things would typically be handled in Zalanthas.  How, for example, would someone respond to an unwanted sexual advance?  Yes, yes, all characters are different, but I think one thing that should be the same across characters is that the sex of the advancer shouldn't make a difference in the response.  A gay guy winking at your straight male char should have the same effect as that unattractive woman winking at him.  This still won't fix the "most male chars are played by male players and male players are hornyand do most of the advances" issue, but it's a start anyway.

Personally, in all my MUDding years before Arm, I'd always played my characters pretty asexually.  Maybe that's bad RP, but I just didn't like bringing that aspect of the world into the game.  My former MUD had a period where it was infested with certain players and their alts designing and playing these complicated BDSM games in public view of others.  Later, spousal abuse situations were RPed, and all this left a very bad taste in the mouth of many players, including myself.  The Arm staff made an EXCELLENT decision in eliminating RL prejudices and warping Zalanthan sexuality to this end.And they did it without compromising the realism of the game world.  We as players shouldn't keep inventing "totally realistic and IC" reasons for our characters to bring in the ugly prejudices from the real world, especially when they are often patently absurd in a Zalanthan setting.  

In light of the great ambiguity as to how a Zalanthan would respond in a sexually charged situation, I've always played them pretty neutral, trying to talk about sex things the same way I might talk about cooking up travel cakes.  The impossibility of understanding the Zalanthan mind in this regard has made anything more than that feel like hopping that longneck onto a kank, because I'm either bringing in real life norms or going directly opposite them.

In the end, I think playing these situations out over and over again with a strong focus on preserving the integrity of the game world, not just following our own "common sense" RL instincts, is the only way to really learn how a Zalanthan might respond.  That means a concerted effort to view the sexes as equal, and if that proves impossible, a lot more cross-gender player chars to muddy the waters (even though I haven't played any here and admit not being sure I could do it).  I mean, really, if the sexes truly are equal, "acting like a real woman" shouldn't be a problem, because the only distinguishable difference would be the personal pronoun.  In fact, in a Zalanthan setting,I'd say that trying to "act like the other gender" to pass off your opposite gender character just means following real life gender stereotypes, and, yup, hopping the elf onto the kank.  The best possible thing a cross-gender character could do is act exactly like the player would imagine a same-gender character with a similar personality doing.

Besides, attempts at passing off opposite gender characters are often laughably obvious.  It was very easy to distinguish that the female characters on other MUDs who giggled, curtseyed, played with their hair, and all manner of things were clearly men in real life.  Actual female characters tended to behave like real women, that is like normal people with actual developed personalities besides giggling and "acting like a woman."  On Zalanthas, the efforts are bound to be much more sophisticated, but are they really appropriate to the game world?

Hey, maybe Zalanthans should have no gender, and could reproduce with any one other person.  (Because asexual reproduction or spawning makes evolution SLOOOOOW).  That is a very extreme measure, though, as we'd have to refer to ourselves as "it" or something.  (Colored text means it's not a serious proposition.)