Excess weight and blood.

[UnderSeven]

Another mud has blood loss code, the way they do it is just about anyone can make the bleeding stop, so you don't need the skill.  I like their system personally.  

As far as wishing up, there is a difference between abusing the game and role play and masichism.  Frankly I think if you're wishing to die just cause you feel you should you maybe taking it a little to far.  People have been known to survive some incredible things, if you're not going to die from something with some exceptions, maybe you should. . . Let yourself not die?  

Edit:
My main concern with people wishing up to die on wounds, is suicide.  Sometimes I fear that people who are seeking to suicide their char, may see this as an easy way to do it and appear rping.  I don't mean to stab at anyone who legitiamtely does it because they honestly feel is right though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As Carnage has somewhat said, combat should simply be more visious. There should, simply, be fewer blows in a fight. Everyone should receive the blood-loss code.

[jhunter]

I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.

You guys think pcs drop like flies now...it'll become nearly impossible to have a long-lived combat-oriented pc.

Also, what's to stop someone from wounding someone and just following them closely enough so that they do not have the time to bandage wounds..this would allow for some twinking I think.
As it it now, someone has the chance of escaping the fight...with blood loss code...someone is almost guaranteed dead whether the fight is actually finished at that time or not.

Wound them and just follow them closely enough so they cannot bandage their wounds...and their yours almost every time because even the time spent trying to run away will kill them.

Realistic yeah, fun?

Fuck no.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There was a good discussion a while back on blood loss code, and I'll suggest the same thing now that seemed to be fairly well received then.

If you're going to add "blood loss" damage to wounds, you need to change the way wounds are acquired in order to maintain both the game balance, and the fun factor.  The immortals have stated before, if I'm not mistaken, that the current damage code is sort of a gestalt view of getting hurt - in other words, if you take 20 damage from a blow from a sword, that 20 damage accounts for everything from the physical damage, to trauma, bleeding, shock, etc.  All of those effects "exist", but from a coded standpoint, they're all packaged together in that same 20 damage, and they all nail your character at the instant of the hit.

Therefore, adding "blood loss" is nothing more than breaking out that portion of the damage potential, and factoring it over time.  Depending on how much you want to play with the code, you could make certain damage types more prone to bleeding than others, have the actual percent of damage attributed to bleeding be random, or any number of other things.  

Just to demonstrate, let's take a simple example of how it could work.  Let's take that same 20-damage sword blow.  Now, we still want that blow to be responsible for 20 damage - we're not changing the potential damage, just the time span over which it is distributed.  Let's further imagine that we've decided that slashing weapon damage is about 50% bloodloss, 50% instant damage.  So you get hit with the sword, and instantly take 10 damage, 50% of the original blow.  That leaves us with 10 damage to distribute over time in some way.  There are a few ways to do that - a gradient, so you take 4 damage, then 3, then 2, then 1 over a period of time, a set number of "bleeds", such as taking 2 damage 5 times, or just taking 1 damage, and the severity of the wound determines the time period between losses until you've taken the other 10 damage.  Bandaging could then be altered so that it gets rid of all or part of any "unused" damage potential to someone.  Also, as long as you have any damage potential hanging over your head, you won't "see" any hp regen - it would be applied to remaining potential damage before your hp.

The point of such a system is to keep blood loss code balanced so that it doesn't become impossible to survive without access to healers, doesn't make sparring unmanageable, and doesn't make the desert impossible to survive, while at the same time improving the viability of healers and looking nifty to those players who want to see their characters bleed out over time.

[jmordetsky]

I think if you have 100 hp, anything lower then 70 you cannot recover without serious rest. (sleep)

Anything lower then 40, if you walk/run you should get a message saying you caused yourself great pain and lose movement and stun points.

Anything lower then 20 and you should start bleeding to death, losing HP akin to the way you would if you were poisoned. Until you are bandaged, sleeping, or other wise healed.

After 0 you go into the mortally wounded state we have now.



This would prevent twinking because people would think seriously about staying in that fight, then hiding off sleeping for a day and jumping back into the fray.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.

PCs can flee whenever they want.  NPCs tend to fight to the death.  In my experience this results in a lot more dead NPCs than dead PCs.  Advantage:  PCs.

You guys think pcs drop like flies now...it'll become nearly impossible to have a long-lived combat-oriented pc.

As it should be, friend.  As it should be.

I tried going the route of a warrior once.  I lived for 40 days, was never in serious danger of being killed, and only died because I attack a thief with my fists outside the gates of Allanak.  From where I'm standing, it's easy as hell.  I see far more long-lived warriors than I see long-lived PCs of EVERY other class combined.  Being a soldier or mercenary should rightly be the single most dangerous legitimate profession in the known world.  Even more dangerous than being a pickpocket, if you can imagine that.

Just to demonstrate, let's take a simple example of how it could work. Let's take that same 20-damage sword blow. Now, we still want that blow to be responsible for 20 damage - we're not changing the potential damage, just the time span over which it is distributed. Let's further imagine that we've decided that slashing weapon damage is about 50% bloodloss, 50% instant damage. So you get hit with the sword, and instantly take 10 damage, 50% of the original blow. That leaves us with 10 damage to distribute over time in some way. There are a few ways to do that - a gradient, so you take 4 damage, then 3, then 2, then 1 over a period of time, a set number of "bleeds", such as taking 2 damage 5 times, or just taking 1 damage, and the severity of the wound determines the time period between losses until you've taken the other 10 damage. Bandaging could then be altered so that it gets rid of all or part of any "unused" damage potential to someone. Also, as long as you have any damage potential hanging over your head, you won't "see" any hp regen - it would be applied to remaining potential damage before your hp.

I don't like the idea of turning actual damage into potential blood loss damage, because that will make it even harder to kill people.  That is not a good thing.  If you want to know why there are so few raiders, you don't need to look any farther than the combat code and the flee/movement system.

I do like Jsomebodies idea.  If you get totally messed up in combat, you should die if you aren't treated.  I'm thinking that if you're assessed as in terrible condition, then you should be on your way to the mantis head.  The blood loss doesn't necessarily have to be fast enough to affect combat, but I believe it should definitely be there.

[Callisto]

I dunno, I'm not personally imprsesed by someone flexing their 'rp' muscles by saying, they wished up three times with past chars to make a char die when they think they would.

I agree 100%.

[Sir Diealot]

Note: also, that neither of you know the circumstances.. And it wasn't so much as an 'rp muscle flex' as it was a 'there is no bleeding code..so I had to wish for it to be realistic.'.. You do /not/ survive several very-damaging shots to the head, barely scramble away at 2, curl up behind a rock, and neatly regain your hps..you bleed profusely, lose blood pressure, and..as night sets in.. you get even worse off.

So stop psuedo-flaming me, it's really getting old.

[spawnloser]

Sir Diealot, I've noticed that you're really sensitive.

Note what the HappyViridianBigDood said.  When you take damage, that is everything...the initial wound, the blood loss, the trauma, the shock that goes along with it all.  If you are left at 2 hp, it is because you should be...you are still REALLY screwed up, but that's as bad as you can get from those wounds.  To become so critical that you may die without assistance is to go to -1 or worse.  Wishing up to have your character killed is unnecessary unless it is something that is not represented in the damage code...like your character bites his/her tongue off to bleed to death as I know one character has done.

[Sir Diealot]

I'm not really all that sensitive.. I just noticed that a lot of people 'flame' where I used to Flame.  You know, veiled insults instead of just coming out and saying it.. and I've also noticed that it's the same people I've Flamed in the past..

Oh, and if you think three hits of 20 hps to the head hit-location should equal the same as three hits of 20 hps to the chest, or leg hit-location.. Because the Code Says So.. then we seriously differ in our definitions of Realism.

[Carnage]

The code doesn't represent bleeding, shock, and trauma damage. That instantaneous damage representing it all is simply bullshit. If I get in several good stabs, you're likely to be dead if you don't receive medical attention.

To put it simply, the body is fragile. The short term blood loss may not suddenly kill you, but those stabs do more than puncture the skin. I may have gotten your lung. Your intestines. Your stomach. Your heart. Your kidneys. Whatever. If you get stabbed in the intestines, you're likely going to have waste spilling out whenever it passes through that area. So, even if the skin gets patched up, you still have feces/partially decomposed food in your abdomen which is just a 'Welcome' sign for infection. And let's see how far you can run when one of your lung collapses on itself. Oh, and your stomach? Yeah, that'll likely leak acid into your system. Mmm-mmm. But that's just a knife.

With a sword or axe, you're lucky something doesn't get amputated. Losing 40% of your health does not represent losing an arm and spewing out blood or even being disembowled. At that point you should be happy you can even hold your organs into your body.

Club? Broken bone city. Say hello to internal bleeding and don't expect it to be fixed any time soon. A person with a broken hip is lucky to survive the internal bleeding if they're not treated quickly by modern day standards. And you want your Zalanthan tough guy wants to just walk it off? Yeah, that's not going to hold water. Get whacked in the head by an obsidian club? There's a concussion, cerebral damage, and a fractured cranium.

We pride ourselves on being harsh and realistic. More dangerous wilderness? Oh boy! More room echoes? Okay! But god forbid something should happen directly to our characters, such as theft or the furor surrounding the desert elf stamina a while back. Please, don't use the "They're Zalanthans, they're hardier and can survive it!". They're not from Krypton; they're human beings. Perma-death does not make us a harsh and realistic MUD. From what I'm seeing right now, not too much really does. Either lose the title or actually make the game harsh and realistic.

[Trenidor]

...Note what the HappyViridianBigDood said.  When you take damage, that is everything...the initial wound, the blood loss, the trauma, the shock that goes along with it all.  If you are left at 2 hp, it is because you should be...you are still REALLY screwed up, but that's as bad as you can get from those wounds.  To become so critical that you may die without assistance is to go to -1 or worse.  Wishing up to have your character killed is unnecessary unless it is something that is not represented in the damage code...like your character bites his/her tongue off to bleed to death as I know one character has done.

If that were true then I think the amount of HP someone losses from a hit should be more. Just for example (I just love these) Roman pugio's and shortswords could kill someone with a critical hit, but that could be the backstab skill.... Still, shouldn't those critical hits we get in battle be like that?

[Stroker]

Still, shouldn't those critical hits we get in battle be like that?

They are like that. You just need to be really good at combat to inflict so much damage with a critical, whatever hit. The same goes for backstab, you have to be really good to actually succeed in a one-hit kill.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In response to whomever wrote this, I say this: Wounding somebody and then following them closely so that they have no chance to heal can not be misconstrued as twinking in any senario. It is called hunting.

I say - blood-loss code, heavier hits, and the removal of tearing wounds when you bandage somebody. Fix that part. A person who does not go bust on their bandage roll should staunch a wound, and going bust should simply do nothing. Perhaps only on a wound should you actually tear the wound. You should be able to bandage up to 50 percent of hit points. Up to 75 percent you can rest. To max your hitpoints again you should need sleep.

Game over.

[Sir Diealot]

Flawless Victory!

[Angela Christine]

Having 10 hit points left doesn't mean that 90% of your body is destroyed, because if 90% of your body was destroyed you would already be dead.  It means you are 10 points away from taking a potentially fatal wound.  At 0 you have a potentially fatal wound.  At -10 you are dead from a fatal wound.

Therefore, a wound that does 40 damage all at once is not necessarily a fatal wound.  A wound that does 100 damage all at once is probably a fatal wound.  I've never gotten 100 dammage in a single hit from a PC, but I have been instakilled by other things.  From healthy to dead (or at least into negative hps) in a moment, yes, it happens.  I've died many, many times, so I know about these things.


A bullet to the brain or a messy disembowlment doesn't do 50 points of dammage, it does like 200 or 300.

So what does having several 20+ point wounds mean to me?  Several significant gashes.  For a completely blunt weapon it could mean several fractured bones (closed fractures, no bone visible) or significant soft tissue injuries leaving really impressive bruises.  A punctured lung or bowel would not heal easily without magick or medicine, therefore if you survived you did not sustain injuries to your vital organs.  Getting your arm chopped off would also tend to quickly be fatal if only because it would mean severing a significant artery, so if you aren't dead then you probably didn't lose a limb.  (I've seen the one-armed and one-legged NPCs, and even had a character lose a limb and survive, so it can happen, but I assume it is usually fatal in Zalanthas.


I don't think combat needs to be ramped up.  I've had at least 20 characters attacked and killed before I had time to react at all, dead without entering a single command.  Sure, that is my own fault for being where things could attack me, so I'm not saying those deaths were unfair.  But if you find combat takes too long, is hum-drum and so *slow* that it is  downright boring, well, you may need to take more risks because there are plenty of faster, more "exciting" combat opportunities out there now.


AC

[Agent_137]

i'm liking the new depth that's been presented with the analysis of the hit point system. And I like to think that eventually we'll code blood loss deeper into the system, but do it like some one suggested earlier as having it be a portion of the original damage, not just tacked on as an afterthough. So, in actuality, you'll be recieving less damage instantly, and have a better chance to treat part of that damage.


In the mean time, roleplay it out!

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.


PCs can flee whenever they want. NPCs tend to fight to the death. In my experience this results in a lot more dead NPCs than dead PCs. Advantage: PCs.

Nope, not with some of the terminater npcs out there.

No move lag for them.

You get jumped by one...it hits you really hard once....then tracks you across the known world and your only chance is to hope and pray you manage to live long enough to get a break to bandage the wounds before it catches back up to you and kills you anyway.

Advantage:NPC

Codewise the only guilds fucked up by the bloodloss code are those who fight melee.

Yes it affects everyone, but will most likely never come into play for the tavern-sitting wussies.

Only those who spend any time involved in combat at all...put in blood loss code...then to make it fair...how about possibly fatal STDS for f'me pcs...and allow people to overdose and -die- from intoxicating substances...blood poisoning from woodsplinters...accidental cutting off of fingers for those that work stone or wood...

They would be realistic...every bit as realistic as blood loss code...but I doubt those that enjoy playing those sort of pcs would want it.

Also, blood loss code doesn't take into account what sort of wounds got you to the point you are...at least none of them I've experienced.

So what if you got scratched for one point of damage several times and it took you down to the point where you would start dying from blood loss...the code doesn't care...but I sure as fuck would.

It'd be like dying because you got pricked with a pin several times...or got a whole bunch of minor scratches that, while irritating, are not fatal...but you bleed to death from them.

And hgs...don't even get me started about them if there was a blood loss code added in.

[Sir Diealot]

First Off: a pin prick is not 1 point of damage.. a point of damage is a small cut, like slipping with a carving knife and shearing off a bit of flesh. There /is/ such a thing as negligible damage.

Fourty small cuts, all still bleeding, would cause you to be woozy from blood loss, pretty much writhing in agony.. and it would make it pretty damn hard to move without causing more damage... I'd actually prefer the single large gash to my left arm, because I could nurse that a lot easier.

I'm actually in favor of Arm using the hit-location/limb damage system I've seen on some H&S MUDs.. That, incorporated with Arm's kick-ass Rp, would lead to a very realistic, and incredibly harsh environment.

Also, AC, if you think simply losing an arm or a leg pre-hospital days would 100% kill you, then you're sorely mistaken.  It's more like a 60-40 chance, with 60 being death, and 40 being making it to a hot stick in time, or just plain getting lucky and having the body's own defense mechanisms work.. IE. retracting and squeezing the artery shut, so platelets can build up.

Also, if any of you are in SCA, you know how much a -padded- weapon can hurt when it catches you upside the head.  Imagine that padded weapon, swung by that huge guy, actually being /swung/ at you with the intent to kill... As well as removing the padding.. You would be -on the ground- after a single hit, skull cracked open and everything..

There, MUD damage is the problem, not Arm, not any specifics, just Diku standard.. it's not realistic.

[Meatwad]

I agree with Sir Diealot.  Now to read what he wrote.

I do think that having coded things happen to specific parts of the body would be neat.  Could lead to amputations, hacking off of hands, and having a leg broken so walking wouldn't go so well.  All that would pretty much have to be RPd by then.  Some people might just say role play it out without the coded effects, but there are those who would simply sleep for a few real life minutes, wake up, and then act as if they hadn't had their head slashed repeatedly.

Also, if someone is subdued, that could be a way for a templar to codedly have a thief's hand lopped off, so they couldn't wield daggers or what have you any more.  Would lead to interesting conversations about the person's shiny new stump.

It would also be nice (assuming it isn't already implemented) if there were a way to cover someone in oil, toss a torch on them, and watch them burn.  Would work especially well if the could also be tied up, or to something.  Could lead to burning magickers at the stake, or just tying up that annoying bard out in the desert for the mek's to find.

[Vettrock]

I know of at least one case where a hand was amputated from an elf by a templar, and the elf lost the ability to use that one hand.  I am assuming this required some immortal intervention, but it has happened before.

[UnderSeven]

I think making combat have fewer blows would be neat too.  If we could slow it down in such a way that you could emote out more that would also IMO be neat.  Not a lot but a little.

As far as blood loss, I've seen a game that put it into play and it really didn't effect how much pcs lived or died. NPCS got it too and ANYOE could stem blood loss, they just had to exit combat first.

As far as amputations go I don't think we should EVER code amputations or critical death/instant kills.  That is where playability would suffer the most I think

Ultimately I feel the game would benifit from code that forced players to take their wounds more seriously.  People sparring to bleedig profusesly or walking around with 20 - hp left and preteding like it's nothing are not really rping their chars well.  Also phyisicians would be worth a little more if being seriously damaged made a difference.  Not to mention those fleeing gith npcs would have a little more to worry about.  

This code could helpthe game in that sense too, that npcs who are coded to wait till the last minute to get out of ther would actually be screwed, easy to track and have real problems escaping.  Ultimately I think there are some great ideas here.

[Cenghiz]

I don't know if it's hard. I'm sorry if I'm derailing but...

>hunt
A long-strided humanoid with bleeding wounds had arrived from east a few hours ago.
A long-strided humanoid with bleeding wounds had left to west a few hours ago.
....
would be real fun. And; physicians; please be visible and gossip in in game boards please. I usually have difficulties reaching one. We pay about 100 to magicians, so all my chars would be willing to apply for your treatment if the price's around 100, because all but one of my non-magicker chars feared magicians.
And for the new blood-loss idea of having %50 of the damage in advance, then having the rest slowly's OK I guess. I liked the idea. Even if it's not implemented, I'll rp that. Thanks for the idea.

[Anonymous]

I like the idea of slowing down combat.  I don't emote much when I get into a fight because I have to be ready every second to type in a command.  With longer time in between blows and such it would be a lot more fun.  I also don't like how if you use a coded command like kick the delay makes your emotes come after the delay, not during.  I want more of a time between blows, but not the kind where no commands can be entered.

[Trenidor]

I like what meatwad said.

Having targeted locations would help lessen the amount of "Your forcing me to RP in a different situation than I'd like" or, simply called: Force RP

If someone's leg was cut off, then we would all know of it without the person in charge of the character actually RPing that it is.

Most people I've seen would not under and circumstance say that they lost their leg from someone's slash at it. If though, code were involved that it -was- cut off, you'd see more people play realistically to someone with a katana (the samurai swords that are specifically designed for cutting off limbs).  :twisted:


As for blood loss, I think the best way to do it is keep the amount of damage someone gets already, but durring combat when someone is hit by an attack harder than (maybe even) a graze to your body, then a code should activate acrodingly like the poision code. The harder the hit was e.g. critical, lightly, very hard, etc. the more blood that would be lost from a wound. It would also have a booster depending on certian body locations. Neck and head would boost it more, an arm maybe less, so on and so forth.

Like this chart for example (note that This could be changed and rearanged, I'm just giving an example)

------------------------------ neck--------head--------arms-------body--------legs--------wrists
Graze----------------------- -2 hp------- -1 hp------- -1 hp----- -1 hp ------- -.5 hp ----- -.5 hp
Lightly----------------------- -3 hp ------- -2 hp ----- -2 hp ---- -2 hp --------- -1hp -------- -1 hp
barely hit ------------------- -3 hp ------- -2 hp ----- -2 hp ---- -2 hp --------- -1hp -------- -1 hp
hit --------------------------- -4 hp ------- -3 hp ----- -3 hp ---- -3 hp --------- -2 hp ------- -2 hp
hit hard --------------------- -5 hp ------- -4 hp ----- -4 hp ---- -4 hp --------- -3 hp ------- -3 hp
hit very hard --------------- -5.5 hp ---- -4.5 hp --- -4.5 hp -- -4.5 hp ------- -3.5 hp ----- -3.5 hp
wound ---------------------- -6 hp ------- -5 hp ----- -5 hp ---- -5 hp --------- -4 hp ------- -4 hp
grevious wound ----------- -7 hp ------- -6 hp ----- -6 hp ---- -6 hp --------- -5 hp ------- -5 hp
unspeakable dammage--- -8 hp ------- -7 hp ----- -7 hp ---- -7 hp --------- -6 hp ------- -6 hp


Heck, if you get hit twive unspeakablely on the neck you're pretty much dead (which is how it would be in real life) that would be like chopping someones head off.