Excess weight and blood.

[Trenidor]

I don't think this is implimented, but if it is stop me now and tell me.

When you've got a ton of weight on you, your blood has to move faster because your muscles need the air to keep it held up.

My idea is that when someone has a ton of weight on them, that they lose MVs when they walk (or if they are running, or anything that will take MVs) That it should take away some HP as well because you would be loosing blood. No one heavily bleeding should be packing around a ton of weight anyway, they should be resting so their wounds heal.

[Callisto]

No, it isn't in-game and it never should be.

[Agent_137]

i think the more shit you've got on your back the more it should cost to move . . . for those rooms that cost movement points already.

But you are telling me that bleeding doesn't cost hp?

I can be standing there bleeding profusely and my hp doesn't drop!?

If it does, ok, good, but don't make it worse if you got heavy shit on you. That's too much of a stretch.

If it doesn't, i'm gonna say, "uhhhhhh....ok...."

[EvilRoeSlade]

You lose extra movement if you're carrying too much.

There isn't a blood loss code however, which makes a lot of people that ought to be dead still alive.

[ashjpd]

There is already enough stuff to have to deal with.

[Sir Diealot]

BUT ARM IS HARSH IT SUPPOSED TO BE H4RD!!!!!11111one.

[Agent_137]

so you can't mortally wound people? That's a big disapoint.

ya know, for all the pk, this mud's fighting/injury code isn't very strong. But i'm getting used to it. I my former mud of 7 years was a H&S roleplay "weakly encouraged" mud. But the combat/injury code was fantastic!

Ah well. Armageddon still beats it hands down. Maybe I can just hope for a slow ramp up of the fighting code in the years to come. Blood loss draining health is a start.

And I object to everyone who would say "Uhg, it's hard enough already, don't make it worse" to this idea while turning around later to say "living in zalanthas isn't as 'harsh' as it used to be!"

Also, no one say, "there's enough on the coder's lap already." I know that. I'm not asking for this immediately. I'm not even asking for anything. I'm just mentioning it, and hoping. that cool?


edit:
sir diealot beat me to pointing out the irony, damnit. I was still typing this up, jerkface! :mrgreen:

[EvilRoeSlade]

Just ignore the non-arguements.

[UnderSeven]

There is a balance called realism Vs playbilitiy.

This particular idea isn't so hard on playbility, but it's such a random thing to have implemented when so many other realism things would make more sense that I find it a little hard to even find arguements against at this time.  But if it were implemented, I feel alomst like it would detract from the game as poeple would likely look at it and go wtf?  

Actually, I take that back, I like this idea.  People in game treat their injuries way to much like they're just nothing even though they're like bleeding prously.  Only instead of losing hp, maybe doing stuff while you're wounded, as if you're not wounded, could do the same thing to you starvation does.

[wizturbo]

Immortals can assist with a critical wound.  For instance, if you get your throat slit, you might survive for a brief while, and then you can wish up to die.

Not many would wish up to die...but hey...some roleplayers are realistic.

[Trenidor]

Immortals can assist with a critical wound.  For instance, if you get your throat slit, you might survive for a brief while, and then you can wish up to die.

Not many would wish up to die...but hey...some roleplayers are realistic.

I do.....A LOT... I think the imms are getting sick of me though

[Sir Diealot]

I've wished up to die 3 times...all because it was IC.

[Angela Christine]

so you can't mortally wound people? That's a big disapoint.

Yes, you can.  You don't die at 0 hp, you die at -10.  But at 0 you are mortally wounded, incapacitated, and will probably die without help.  When you are below 0 your hps slowly bleed away.  But you are also resting/asleep, so your hps are slowly regenerating at the same time.  Sometimes you recover back to 1 hp and live, sometimes you fall to -10 and die.  It is exciting.  :?  Depending on the location and weather, your hps can be going up and down for quite a while, if you choose to wait it out.  You can also quit, if you quit while mortally wounded you die automatically.


AC

[Sir Diealot]

While that's sort of what he was talking about AC, I think he's also talking about something like a gut-shot..Where you're awake, and dying for /hours/ with /no/ chance outside a Vivy (or a sterile modern hospital facility).

[sacac]

I have gotten to -8 hp and then got to 4 hp before thirst and hunger killed me and sent me back to -10, so it is possible

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've never experienced that, Angela Christine, and I don't believe that it's true.

When I was mortally wounded I gained hit points without ever losing them at any point during the ordeal.

[Dan]

There is code for bleeding. I remember one particularly twinky fellow a couple years back who would attack, run away and heal before attacking us again. We gave him a few good whacks and eventually an imm saw and smacked him with some bleeding wounds.

[Miee]

Immortals can assist with a critical wound.  For instance, if you get your throat slit, you might survive for a brief while, and then you can wish up to die.

Not many would wish up to die...but hey...some roleplayers are realistic.

I wished up for the bleed code once after being royally fucked up, but sadly the only Imm on was leaving.  Which was good, because at that point, loosing that PC would have broken my heart.

[Cenghiz]

What to do if wounded heavily? Go find a physician, visit the temple of Vivadu eh? But what if no imms or chars with suchs professions around? Die?
I don't want to play all rangers and physicians just to be able to bandage myself (I even don't know if you can bandage yourself). I RP my wounds, make up an excuse for a few days' rest (feeling dizzy, being limp, not feeling that damned left arm) and that's enough. I don't want to die just because an imm's not ready once in every three IC days for my newbie ranger trying to smash scrabs.
And; ARM used to be much harder for desert-loving chars

[Agent_137]

carry bandages around with you. [der.]

Staunch the blood flow with a torch. [OUCH]

make a tournaquit. [sic]


How do you stop yourself from bleeding now?
this will make it harder for desert characters. Just in a different way. No complaints allowed.

[Armaddict]

Things aren't hard enough for desert characters?

This would affect people who spar often a hell of a lot more.

[sarahjc]

I always liked the idea of the blood loss code, but agree that things are hard enough now. I mean, if you think your PC should die you can always ask for Imm help. If your PC is to die of a slit throat, or from torture or your PC is mortally wounded and you feel they should die an Imm can always invoke the code for you.  But there are enough baddies in the world that things are tough enough.

It is a "perma-death" game, I think it would take a lot of the adventurous spirit out of it of you couldn't come back from -4 Hp's and have that I almost died and lived to tell the tale story. Or if you knew that if you got down past 40 you would be dead within the hour so you didn't take that chance on something cool.

You as the player should be responsible enough to Rp things out well enough, that say, you wrapped up your arm in a tourniquet, or scorched a wound closed, wrapped your wound with a bandage.    

That being said, I think that when something really bad happens to your PC, or if they get messed up very badly, it should be shown in the main desc. There should be more maiming and scars on long lived warrior and ranger PC's.  I've seen PC's that have been through two wars and a shit load of other events that still have that baby face and the glazed over youthful gaze they did ten years IC years ago. Though it is up to the PC, IMHO I just don't see enough battered folks around. You should not be a pretty fellow if you are out there playing with bahamets and raptors every day, working on your collection of gith skulls or fighting in the sparring ring 24-7. I'd like to see a few more missing teeth, missing fingers, limbs gone,  permanent limps or disfigured faces for what ever reason or another.

Ever see a boxer after ten years in the ring.. Zalanthas is that times ten. I'm not saying you can't start off pretty, but it wold be really cool to see that people don't end that way. Life is rough out there in the wilds pretty boy!  Plus a missing finger or two, a lost eye or a torn off ear sure does make for interesting bar chatter.  :wink:

But just my take on it..

The pink rhino hacks off her right arm and places it neatly on the bar in front of her, then ties a tourniquet on the stump to stop the bloodloss code.

[Trenidor]

My idea wasn't that it should cause you to loose blood doing nothing. Just when you had a lot of weight on you. The idea came up later about causing you to bleed continually.


Anyway...You shouldn't be sparring till you are nearly bleeding to death

[Carnage]

Blood loss is a very, very serious thing.

I think that there should be a blood loss code, and bandaging should be made to combat this. Armageddon supposedly promotes realism, yet I can take nasty hits to the head and body and walk away without a problem. You try knocking someone in the head with a stone mace and see how well they can walk after that.

If blood loss is created below a certain percentage of HP, bandage is made cheaper, less risky, and given to everyone like forage or shield use the 'realism' would greatly improve. Now being seriously wounded actually means something when you're bleeding to death and need to be bandaged up to stop it.

[Agent_137]

I think bleeding to death would be fun, personally, and I intend to emote it out until I can get some hard code to back me up. Then I'll garnish that code with more emotes and screams and bandages. Hurray!

[UnderSeven]

Another mud has blood loss code, the way they do it is just about anyone can make the bleeding stop, so you don't need the skill.  I like their system personally.  

As far as wishing up, there is a difference between abusing the game and role play and masichism.  Frankly I think if you're wishing to die just cause you feel you should you maybe taking it a little to far.  People have been known to survive some incredible things, if you're not going to die from something with some exceptions, maybe you should. . . Let yourself not die?  

Edit:
My main concern with people wishing up to die on wounds, is suicide.  Sometimes I fear that people who are seeking to suicide their char, may see this as an easy way to do it and appear rping.  I don't mean to stab at anyone who legitiamtely does it because they honestly feel is right though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As Carnage has somewhat said, combat should simply be more visious. There should, simply, be fewer blows in a fight. Everyone should receive the blood-loss code.

[jhunter]

I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.

You guys think pcs drop like flies now...it'll become nearly impossible to have a long-lived combat-oriented pc.

Also, what's to stop someone from wounding someone and just following them closely enough so that they do not have the time to bandage wounds..this would allow for some twinking I think.
As it it now, someone has the chance of escaping the fight...with blood loss code...someone is almost guaranteed dead whether the fight is actually finished at that time or not.

Wound them and just follow them closely enough so they cannot bandage their wounds...and their yours almost every time because even the time spent trying to run away will kill them.

Realistic yeah, fun?

Fuck no.

[JollyGreenGiant]

There was a good discussion a while back on blood loss code, and I'll suggest the same thing now that seemed to be fairly well received then.

If you're going to add "blood loss" damage to wounds, you need to change the way wounds are acquired in order to maintain both the game balance, and the fun factor.  The immortals have stated before, if I'm not mistaken, that the current damage code is sort of a gestalt view of getting hurt - in other words, if you take 20 damage from a blow from a sword, that 20 damage accounts for everything from the physical damage, to trauma, bleeding, shock, etc.  All of those effects "exist", but from a coded standpoint, they're all packaged together in that same 20 damage, and they all nail your character at the instant of the hit.

Therefore, adding "blood loss" is nothing more than breaking out that portion of the damage potential, and factoring it over time.  Depending on how much you want to play with the code, you could make certain damage types more prone to bleeding than others, have the actual percent of damage attributed to bleeding be random, or any number of other things.  

Just to demonstrate, let's take a simple example of how it could work.  Let's take that same 20-damage sword blow.  Now, we still want that blow to be responsible for 20 damage - we're not changing the potential damage, just the time span over which it is distributed.  Let's further imagine that we've decided that slashing weapon damage is about 50% bloodloss, 50% instant damage.  So you get hit with the sword, and instantly take 10 damage, 50% of the original blow.  That leaves us with 10 damage to distribute over time in some way.  There are a few ways to do that - a gradient, so you take 4 damage, then 3, then 2, then 1 over a period of time, a set number of "bleeds", such as taking 2 damage 5 times, or just taking 1 damage, and the severity of the wound determines the time period between losses until you've taken the other 10 damage.  Bandaging could then be altered so that it gets rid of all or part of any "unused" damage potential to someone.  Also, as long as you have any damage potential hanging over your head, you won't "see" any hp regen - it would be applied to remaining potential damage before your hp.

The point of such a system is to keep blood loss code balanced so that it doesn't become impossible to survive without access to healers, doesn't make sparring unmanageable, and doesn't make the desert impossible to survive, while at the same time improving the viability of healers and looking nifty to those players who want to see their characters bleed out over time.

[jmordetsky]

I think if you have 100 hp, anything lower then 70 you cannot recover without serious rest. (sleep)

Anything lower then 40, if you walk/run you should get a message saying you caused yourself great pain and lose movement and stun points.

Anything lower then 20 and you should start bleeding to death, losing HP akin to the way you would if you were poisoned. Until you are bandaged, sleeping, or other wise healed.

After 0 you go into the mortally wounded state we have now.



This would prevent twinking because people would think seriously about staying in that fight, then hiding off sleeping for a day and jumping back into the fray.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.

PCs can flee whenever they want.  NPCs tend to fight to the death.  In my experience this results in a lot more dead NPCs than dead PCs.  Advantage:  PCs.

You guys think pcs drop like flies now...it'll become nearly impossible to have a long-lived combat-oriented pc.

As it should be, friend.  As it should be.

I tried going the route of a warrior once.  I lived for 40 days, was never in serious danger of being killed, and only died because I attack a thief with my fists outside the gates of Allanak.  From where I'm standing, it's easy as hell.  I see far more long-lived warriors than I see long-lived PCs of EVERY other class combined.  Being a soldier or mercenary should rightly be the single most dangerous legitimate profession in the known world.  Even more dangerous than being a pickpocket, if you can imagine that.

Just to demonstrate, let's take a simple example of how it could work. Let's take that same 20-damage sword blow. Now, we still want that blow to be responsible for 20 damage - we're not changing the potential damage, just the time span over which it is distributed. Let's further imagine that we've decided that slashing weapon damage is about 50% bloodloss, 50% instant damage. So you get hit with the sword, and instantly take 10 damage, 50% of the original blow. That leaves us with 10 damage to distribute over time in some way. There are a few ways to do that - a gradient, so you take 4 damage, then 3, then 2, then 1 over a period of time, a set number of "bleeds", such as taking 2 damage 5 times, or just taking 1 damage, and the severity of the wound determines the time period between losses until you've taken the other 10 damage. Bandaging could then be altered so that it gets rid of all or part of any "unused" damage potential to someone. Also, as long as you have any damage potential hanging over your head, you won't "see" any hp regen - it would be applied to remaining potential damage before your hp.

I don't like the idea of turning actual damage into potential blood loss damage, because that will make it even harder to kill people.  That is not a good thing.  If you want to know why there are so few raiders, you don't need to look any farther than the combat code and the flee/movement system.

I do like Jsomebodies idea.  If you get totally messed up in combat, you should die if you aren't treated.  I'm thinking that if you're assessed as in terrible condition, then you should be on your way to the mantis head.  The blood loss doesn't necessarily have to be fast enough to affect combat, but I believe it should definitely be there.

[Callisto]

I dunno, I'm not personally imprsesed by someone flexing their 'rp' muscles by saying, they wished up three times with past chars to make a char die when they think they would.

I agree 100%.

[Sir Diealot]

Note: also, that neither of you know the circumstances.. And it wasn't so much as an 'rp muscle flex' as it was a 'there is no bleeding code..so I had to wish for it to be realistic.'.. You do /not/ survive several very-damaging shots to the head, barely scramble away at 2, curl up behind a rock, and neatly regain your hps..you bleed profusely, lose blood pressure, and..as night sets in.. you get even worse off.

So stop psuedo-flaming me, it's really getting old.

[spawnloser]

Sir Diealot, I've noticed that you're really sensitive.

Note what the HappyViridianBigDood said.  When you take damage, that is everything...the initial wound, the blood loss, the trauma, the shock that goes along with it all.  If you are left at 2 hp, it is because you should be...you are still REALLY screwed up, but that's as bad as you can get from those wounds.  To become so critical that you may die without assistance is to go to -1 or worse.  Wishing up to have your character killed is unnecessary unless it is something that is not represented in the damage code...like your character bites his/her tongue off to bleed to death as I know one character has done.

[Sir Diealot]

I'm not really all that sensitive.. I just noticed that a lot of people 'flame' where I used to Flame.  You know, veiled insults instead of just coming out and saying it.. and I've also noticed that it's the same people I've Flamed in the past..

Oh, and if you think three hits of 20 hps to the head hit-location should equal the same as three hits of 20 hps to the chest, or leg hit-location.. Because the Code Says So.. then we seriously differ in our definitions of Realism.

[Carnage]

The code doesn't represent bleeding, shock, and trauma damage. That instantaneous damage representing it all is simply bullshit. If I get in several good stabs, you're likely to be dead if you don't receive medical attention.

To put it simply, the body is fragile. The short term blood loss may not suddenly kill you, but those stabs do more than puncture the skin. I may have gotten your lung. Your intestines. Your stomach. Your heart. Your kidneys. Whatever. If you get stabbed in the intestines, you're likely going to have waste spilling out whenever it passes through that area. So, even if the skin gets patched up, you still have feces/partially decomposed food in your abdomen which is just a 'Welcome' sign for infection. And let's see how far you can run when one of your lung collapses on itself. Oh, and your stomach? Yeah, that'll likely leak acid into your system. Mmm-mmm. But that's just a knife.

With a sword or axe, you're lucky something doesn't get amputated. Losing 40% of your health does not represent losing an arm and spewing out blood or even being disembowled. At that point you should be happy you can even hold your organs into your body.

Club? Broken bone city. Say hello to internal bleeding and don't expect it to be fixed any time soon. A person with a broken hip is lucky to survive the internal bleeding if they're not treated quickly by modern day standards. And you want your Zalanthan tough guy wants to just walk it off? Yeah, that's not going to hold water. Get whacked in the head by an obsidian club? There's a concussion, cerebral damage, and a fractured cranium.

We pride ourselves on being harsh and realistic. More dangerous wilderness? Oh boy! More room echoes? Okay! But god forbid something should happen directly to our characters, such as theft or the furor surrounding the desert elf stamina a while back. Please, don't use the "They're Zalanthans, they're hardier and can survive it!". They're not from Krypton; they're human beings. Perma-death does not make us a harsh and realistic MUD. From what I'm seeing right now, not too much really does. Either lose the title or actually make the game harsh and realistic.

[Trenidor]

...Note what the HappyViridianBigDood said.  When you take damage, that is everything...the initial wound, the blood loss, the trauma, the shock that goes along with it all.  If you are left at 2 hp, it is because you should be...you are still REALLY screwed up, but that's as bad as you can get from those wounds.  To become so critical that you may die without assistance is to go to -1 or worse.  Wishing up to have your character killed is unnecessary unless it is something that is not represented in the damage code...like your character bites his/her tongue off to bleed to death as I know one character has done.

If that were true then I think the amount of HP someone losses from a hit should be more. Just for example (I just love these) Roman pugio's and shortswords could kill someone with a critical hit, but that could be the backstab skill.... Still, shouldn't those critical hits we get in battle be like that?

[Stroker]

Still, shouldn't those critical hits we get in battle be like that?

They are like that. You just need to be really good at combat to inflict so much damage with a critical, whatever hit. The same goes for backstab, you have to be really good to actually succeed in a one-hit kill.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In response to whomever wrote this, I say this: Wounding somebody and then following them closely so that they have no chance to heal can not be misconstrued as twinking in any senario. It is called hunting.

I say - blood-loss code, heavier hits, and the removal of tearing wounds when you bandage somebody. Fix that part. A person who does not go bust on their bandage roll should staunch a wound, and going bust should simply do nothing. Perhaps only on a wound should you actually tear the wound. You should be able to bandage up to 50 percent of hit points. Up to 75 percent you can rest. To max your hitpoints again you should need sleep.

Game over.

[Sir Diealot]

Flawless Victory!

[Angela Christine]

Having 10 hit points left doesn't mean that 90% of your body is destroyed, because if 90% of your body was destroyed you would already be dead.  It means you are 10 points away from taking a potentially fatal wound.  At 0 you have a potentially fatal wound.  At -10 you are dead from a fatal wound.

Therefore, a wound that does 40 damage all at once is not necessarily a fatal wound.  A wound that does 100 damage all at once is probably a fatal wound.  I've never gotten 100 dammage in a single hit from a PC, but I have been instakilled by other things.  From healthy to dead (or at least into negative hps) in a moment, yes, it happens.  I've died many, many times, so I know about these things.


A bullet to the brain or a messy disembowlment doesn't do 50 points of dammage, it does like 200 or 300.

So what does having several 20+ point wounds mean to me?  Several significant gashes.  For a completely blunt weapon it could mean several fractured bones (closed fractures, no bone visible) or significant soft tissue injuries leaving really impressive bruises.  A punctured lung or bowel would not heal easily without magick or medicine, therefore if you survived you did not sustain injuries to your vital organs.  Getting your arm chopped off would also tend to quickly be fatal if only because it would mean severing a significant artery, so if you aren't dead then you probably didn't lose a limb.  (I've seen the one-armed and one-legged NPCs, and even had a character lose a limb and survive, so it can happen, but I assume it is usually fatal in Zalanthas.


I don't think combat needs to be ramped up.  I've had at least 20 characters attacked and killed before I had time to react at all, dead without entering a single command.  Sure, that is my own fault for being where things could attack me, so I'm not saying those deaths were unfair.  But if you find combat takes too long, is hum-drum and so *slow* that it is  downright boring, well, you may need to take more risks because there are plenty of faster, more "exciting" combat opportunities out there now.


AC

[Agent_137]

i'm liking the new depth that's been presented with the analysis of the hit point system. And I like to think that eventually we'll code blood loss deeper into the system, but do it like some one suggested earlier as having it be a portion of the original damage, not just tacked on as an afterthough. So, in actuality, you'll be recieving less damage instantly, and have a better chance to treat part of that damage.


In the mean time, roleplay it out!

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
I don't think it should be added unless scripting causing npcs to flee when they reach that point is added as well.

Pcs would flee before or when they do reach that point and npcs should as well....if not, it would be yet another coded advantage npcs would have vs. pcs on top of no move delay and no command delays.


PCs can flee whenever they want. NPCs tend to fight to the death. In my experience this results in a lot more dead NPCs than dead PCs. Advantage: PCs.

Nope, not with some of the terminater npcs out there.

No move lag for them.

You get jumped by one...it hits you really hard once....then tracks you across the known world and your only chance is to hope and pray you manage to live long enough to get a break to bandage the wounds before it catches back up to you and kills you anyway.

Advantage:NPC

Codewise the only guilds fucked up by the bloodloss code are those who fight melee.

Yes it affects everyone, but will most likely never come into play for the tavern-sitting wussies.

Only those who spend any time involved in combat at all...put in blood loss code...then to make it fair...how about possibly fatal STDS for f'me pcs...and allow people to overdose and -die- from intoxicating substances...blood poisoning from woodsplinters...accidental cutting off of fingers for those that work stone or wood...

They would be realistic...every bit as realistic as blood loss code...but I doubt those that enjoy playing those sort of pcs would want it.

Also, blood loss code doesn't take into account what sort of wounds got you to the point you are...at least none of them I've experienced.

So what if you got scratched for one point of damage several times and it took you down to the point where you would start dying from blood loss...the code doesn't care...but I sure as fuck would.

It'd be like dying because you got pricked with a pin several times...or got a whole bunch of minor scratches that, while irritating, are not fatal...but you bleed to death from them.

And hgs...don't even get me started about them if there was a blood loss code added in.

[Sir Diealot]

First Off: a pin prick is not 1 point of damage.. a point of damage is a small cut, like slipping with a carving knife and shearing off a bit of flesh. There /is/ such a thing as negligible damage.

Fourty small cuts, all still bleeding, would cause you to be woozy from blood loss, pretty much writhing in agony.. and it would make it pretty damn hard to move without causing more damage... I'd actually prefer the single large gash to my left arm, because I could nurse that a lot easier.

I'm actually in favor of Arm using the hit-location/limb damage system I've seen on some H&S MUDs.. That, incorporated with Arm's kick-ass Rp, would lead to a very realistic, and incredibly harsh environment.

Also, AC, if you think simply losing an arm or a leg pre-hospital days would 100% kill you, then you're sorely mistaken.  It's more like a 60-40 chance, with 60 being death, and 40 being making it to a hot stick in time, or just plain getting lucky and having the body's own defense mechanisms work.. IE. retracting and squeezing the artery shut, so platelets can build up.

Also, if any of you are in SCA, you know how much a -padded- weapon can hurt when it catches you upside the head.  Imagine that padded weapon, swung by that huge guy, actually being /swung/ at you with the intent to kill... As well as removing the padding.. You would be -on the ground- after a single hit, skull cracked open and everything..

There, MUD damage is the problem, not Arm, not any specifics, just Diku standard.. it's not realistic.

[Meatwad]

I agree with Sir Diealot.  Now to read what he wrote.

I do think that having coded things happen to specific parts of the body would be neat.  Could lead to amputations, hacking off of hands, and having a leg broken so walking wouldn't go so well.  All that would pretty much have to be RPd by then.  Some people might just say role play it out without the coded effects, but there are those who would simply sleep for a few real life minutes, wake up, and then act as if they hadn't had their head slashed repeatedly.

Also, if someone is subdued, that could be a way for a templar to codedly have a thief's hand lopped off, so they couldn't wield daggers or what have you any more.  Would lead to interesting conversations about the person's shiny new stump.

It would also be nice (assuming it isn't already implemented) if there were a way to cover someone in oil, toss a torch on them, and watch them burn.  Would work especially well if the could also be tied up, or to something.  Could lead to burning magickers at the stake, or just tying up that annoying bard out in the desert for the mek's to find.

[Vettrock]

I know of at least one case where a hand was amputated from an elf by a templar, and the elf lost the ability to use that one hand.  I am assuming this required some immortal intervention, but it has happened before.

[UnderSeven]

I think making combat have fewer blows would be neat too.  If we could slow it down in such a way that you could emote out more that would also IMO be neat.  Not a lot but a little.

As far as blood loss, I've seen a game that put it into play and it really didn't effect how much pcs lived or died. NPCS got it too and ANYOE could stem blood loss, they just had to exit combat first.

As far as amputations go I don't think we should EVER code amputations or critical death/instant kills.  That is where playability would suffer the most I think

Ultimately I feel the game would benifit from code that forced players to take their wounds more seriously.  People sparring to bleedig profusesly or walking around with 20 - hp left and preteding like it's nothing are not really rping their chars well.  Also phyisicians would be worth a little more if being seriously damaged made a difference.  Not to mention those fleeing gith npcs would have a little more to worry about.  

This code could helpthe game in that sense too, that npcs who are coded to wait till the last minute to get out of ther would actually be screwed, easy to track and have real problems escaping.  Ultimately I think there are some great ideas here.

[Cenghiz]

I don't know if it's hard. I'm sorry if I'm derailing but...

>hunt
A long-strided humanoid with bleeding wounds had arrived from east a few hours ago.
A long-strided humanoid with bleeding wounds had left to west a few hours ago.
....
would be real fun. And; physicians; please be visible and gossip in in game boards please. I usually have difficulties reaching one. We pay about 100 to magicians, so all my chars would be willing to apply for your treatment if the price's around 100, because all but one of my non-magicker chars feared magicians.
And for the new blood-loss idea of having %50 of the damage in advance, then having the rest slowly's OK I guess. I liked the idea. Even if it's not implemented, I'll rp that. Thanks for the idea.

[Anonymous]

I like the idea of slowing down combat.  I don't emote much when I get into a fight because I have to be ready every second to type in a command.  With longer time in between blows and such it would be a lot more fun.  I also don't like how if you use a coded command like kick the delay makes your emotes come after the delay, not during.  I want more of a time between blows, but not the kind where no commands can be entered.

[Trenidor]

I like what meatwad said.

Having targeted locations would help lessen the amount of "Your forcing me to RP in a different situation than I'd like" or, simply called: Force RP

If someone's leg was cut off, then we would all know of it without the person in charge of the character actually RPing that it is.

Most people I've seen would not under and circumstance say that they lost their leg from someone's slash at it. If though, code were involved that it -was- cut off, you'd see more people play realistically to someone with a katana (the samurai swords that are specifically designed for cutting off limbs).  :twisted:


As for blood loss, I think the best way to do it is keep the amount of damage someone gets already, but durring combat when someone is hit by an attack harder than (maybe even) a graze to your body, then a code should activate acrodingly like the poision code. The harder the hit was e.g. critical, lightly, very hard, etc. the more blood that would be lost from a wound. It would also have a booster depending on certian body locations. Neck and head would boost it more, an arm maybe less, so on and so forth.

Like this chart for example (note that This could be changed and rearanged, I'm just giving an example)

------------------------------ neck--------head--------arms-------body--------legs--------wrists
Graze----------------------- -2 hp------- -1 hp------- -1 hp----- -1 hp ------- -.5 hp ----- -.5 hp
Lightly----------------------- -3 hp ------- -2 hp ----- -2 hp ---- -2 hp --------- -1hp -------- -1 hp
barely hit ------------------- -3 hp ------- -2 hp ----- -2 hp ---- -2 hp --------- -1hp -------- -1 hp
hit --------------------------- -4 hp ------- -3 hp ----- -3 hp ---- -3 hp --------- -2 hp ------- -2 hp
hit hard --------------------- -5 hp ------- -4 hp ----- -4 hp ---- -4 hp --------- -3 hp ------- -3 hp
hit very hard --------------- -5.5 hp ---- -4.5 hp --- -4.5 hp -- -4.5 hp ------- -3.5 hp ----- -3.5 hp
wound ---------------------- -6 hp ------- -5 hp ----- -5 hp ---- -5 hp --------- -4 hp ------- -4 hp
grevious wound ----------- -7 hp ------- -6 hp ----- -6 hp ---- -6 hp --------- -5 hp ------- -5 hp
unspeakable dammage--- -8 hp ------- -7 hp ----- -7 hp ---- -7 hp --------- -6 hp ------- -6 hp


Heck, if you get hit twive unspeakablely on the neck you're pretty much dead (which is how it would be in real life) that would be like chopping someones head off.

[Sir Diealot]

Very well thought out Trenidor, I like that a lot.  It's realistic, playable, and seems like it would be good for the MUD.

[Trenidor]

The blood loss could be slower or faster than the poision code. The only way to stop it would be to get your HP over the heavly bleeding % that we already have IG (I'm not saying cuz it's IC). Then you'd get lightly bleeding code which would only cause 1-2 hp loss.

Also, your amount of blood loss would combine with the different hits, for example:

You get hit with a wound on the leg, that's only -4 hp by my chart.
Then you get hit by a lightly slash on your body, that's only -2 on my chart

They'd combine to = -6hp every time you lose blood (following the poision code)

And the stats could tie in somehow to how much my bloodloss chart varries. With someone that has a high endurance, would be able to stand loosing more blood than someone with a low endurance, and therefore the amount of points lost would depend mainly on that.

***EDIT*** I thought of something more:
The loosing of your limb or whatever would be caused by an attack higher than a wound if you were using a slashing weapon, a unspeakable damage if you were using a blugeon, critical wound for piercing, and chopping.

When they lose a limb, a thing like a tattoo would be created on that location. A wrist would make a rounded stubb. A shoulder would make a chopped off hump. so on and so forth. The item on them would cause it so no other items could be worn there and would take up that wear location.
They could also vary the type of wearitem by having it be different stuff for the different type of weapon that was used to cut it off.

When someone gets one of these, they could get a ooc prompt that would ask them to make a new main descripion that followed with their wound and submit it so that they could change their description.

[UnderSeven]

This is gettnig a little too realistic for my taste. Not many people want to rp a char missing limbs, it maybe more realistic, but so would havingpeople need to actually use the latrine in game.  


I think we should steer clear of amputations being coded.  

As far as blood loss, I think we should stay simple there too.  A wound of a certain amount of damage, say extremely hard and above or something, causes you to bleed VERY SLOWLY.  I don't think we need to do radical changes here.

As far as aiming goes, I'm not a huge fan of that idea, Someone who is sword fighting can't target a specific location, you have to mix it up or become predictable and easy to defend against.

[jhunter]

Yeah, then we'd have a whole bunch of people who did not wish to play the role of a cripple suddenly forced into playing one or retire their pc...I've a feeling that the latter would be the most often case.

[Sir Diealot]

Don't wanna play a cripple?  Don't get into combat with a Mek.

[Trenidor]

You're playing the char, you have to suffer the consiquences.

I'm sure it'd be fun to play an amputate if I had a real RP reason, if it happened in the game it'd be more exciting. Anyways, if you are amputated, you could wait for bloodloss code to kick in and kill you if you don't want the role. Just remember to RP a reason why you were killed from blood loss instead of just sitting there waiting for the code to kill you.

[Sir Diealot]

Exactly.. I don't want this to sound like a flame, so please don't take it as such..

Some people don't want to Rp having been stolen from.. or dying.. or falling down a well, but it happened IC due to IC actions, therefore you can either play the role, or find a MUD that's /not/ RPI.

[Trenidor]

As far as aiming goes, I'm not a huge fan of that idea, Someone who is sword fighting can't target a specific location, you have to mix it up or become predictable and easy to defend against.

No one said anything about aiming...it'd work the way it is now how it says where you are hit, only that location would trigger other effects in the game.

[Sir Diealot]

Actually, on aiming.. several combat styles - fencing, kendo, some styles from the middle east - focused on aiming in various ways.  Some used misdirection, or pure force, or quick wrist flicks.. but they all were able to pretty much pinpoint, especially on less-experienced targets.

[jhunter]

Some people don't want to Rp having been stolen from.. or dying.. or falling down a well, but it happened IC due to IC actions, therefore you can either play the role, or find a MUD that's /not/ RPI.

Yep, but the game as it stands now allows players the choice of how they want to deal with it...with that the choice is gone.

I personally don't want to see the code deciding everything about my pc, I like the gray area the code provides, that's why I play Arm rather than another RPI that has blood loss code.

There's simply more room to rp in as it is and more choices of outcomes to situations...I LOVE that about Arm and would be sorely saddened to see it all go.

As someone else said before...people flee too easily when attacked as is...with blood loss code the instant fleeing shit would just get worse.

[Sir Diealot]

Make high-power Vivys be able to grow missing limbs (slowly, expensively, and at the heigth of their power).

Also, you can Rp how you react to losing an arm the exact same ways you can Rp how you react to losing your 'sid.  In each case you've lost something.. and in each case you can get revenge/mourn/pray/whatever else.. You -cannot- control whether the thief takes your 'sid or not, except by being very observant with the code.. Therefore it seems silly to allow you to control whethen that 30-day half-giant with a Greatsword hacks off your arm or not when he hits you 6 times with criticals..

Also, spam-fleeing from fighting.. I do that RL too.. I flee like a scared little bunny the second someone starts swinging.  It's realistic, people do -not- want to die.

[Trenidor]

As someone else said before...people flee too easily when attacked as is...with blood loss code the instant fleeing shit would just get worse.

I'd have to disagree...If there were consiquences of moving around with blood (perhaps blood loss like poision would only work in combat, outside of combat walking around is worse than sitting still.) I don't know really.

It'd turn out like you said, people will insta flee, but if you manage to get in the first hit, get them bleeding and they walk off with a bloody neck, I don't think they'd last long enough, they'd most likely pass out halfway back to civilzation.

[jhunter]

It'd turn out like you said, people will insta flee, but if you manage to get in the first hit, get them bleeding and they walk off with a bloody neck, I don't think they'd last long enough, they'd most likely pass out halfway back to civilzation.

Which would basicaly make every hit a good backstab...then noone would ever survive an encounter...

Another negative side effect to this is more people will die from any sort of combat...less chance they will ever work toward getting revenge on you because they will be dead...that cuts down an avenue of rp as well.

Hehe.

You solidly slash the other dude on the neck.

The other dude solidly slashes you on your head.

flee

A short while later...

The body of you is lying here crumpled in the dust.


The body of the other dude is lying here crumpled in the dust.


Me: Well...that was about fucking pointless...

[Sir Diealot]

I don't see the problem ? Neither of you could bandage, or find anyone who could bandage ? Both of you probably fled if you were playing IC and you'd just each gotten -good- hit to the head/neck.. Otherwise that'd bad Rp, except in certain, extreme scenarios.. Even so recently as the civil war, the major causes of death were disease and infections from wounds, and I'd definitely say that Civil War America was (at least medically) farther along than Zalanthas.

[Trenidor]

The other dude was clearly a good fighter, or else he wouldn't have hit you solidly.

You too, must have had experience fighting, or else you wouldn't soldly slash the other dude on the neck.

That's why if you're going to fight you should know how to heal yourself. Don't expect to live just because you're a good fighter. I don't expect to live just because I am a good fighter. The romans were good fighters, but even they died in battle. If only they had bandages to save them...

IRL you're not going to go around cutitng peoples neck nearly off, and them yours, and you're going to survive just because you are a good fighter. Sure people will end up killing themselves and their opponents, in fact, samurai were trained specifically so that they could avoid this.

[UnderSeven]

But this isn't real life, this is a game.

The examples of theft and such, VERY little is coded in this game that can happen to your char that is permanant and out of your hands.  Amputation would be one among death really.  I don't think there are any others.

As far as the novelty of playing an amputee goes it might be neat once, but somene who fights often would likely see it happen eventually no matter what.  It would get old fast.

It is a harsh world were most people are starving and probably missing limbs teeth and are ugly.  But how many people play the 90% of the population of zalathanus...? Almost no one.  People do it yes, but more rarely than not.  Like I said before, this is a game, we clearly don't play it to simulate our real lives or we wouldn't bother playing at all.  I think the fact that very few people play disease ridden, starving beggars with nothing but the cloths on their backs who have to work 14 + hour days just to afford a couple travel cakes is proof enough that most people wouldn't want to play a amputee just because they decide to do a combat role.

As far as the aiming goes, yes Kendo, fencing, they are like that. But those are competition styles, they were never really used in practical combat.  No, kendo was not how the samuria in japan fought, it may of been similuar but what we see today is how it's been adapted over the years to be an art and not a practical fighting style.  The way people fight in a real fight is you go for whatever you can, the trained fighters will feignt and do all sorts of tricks to beat their opponents, none of which will include repeatedly going for the same predictable location.

I think blood loss and bleeding code is a great idae, making wounds a little more serious so people rp them more is good too.  I am completely against coded amputation, even if it was super rare, the fact is the way thigs happen in this game comes much down to chance and the chance that your char could lose a limb would likely resort in a lot of retiring and people simply not playing.

Okay it's more realistic, you could even say it's compariable to that our chars die, but realism vs playability, if people don't want to play it, then it's probably best it not go in.

[Trenidor]

Yes, the amputation code might be a little streaching it.

I'd be willing to settle just for bloodloss code if it were implimented.
After a while of being amputated, I might just give it all up and get sick of it.

[Bogre]

I'm not too happy with the thirst and HP code. Like when your hurt and thirsty and unconscious, your hp just -drops-. Like a rock. Maybe when you get dehydrated, but not just when you are thirsty.

[Angela Christine]

Meh.

It would also have to take into account of what caused the hp drop.  You can take damage from poison (even without taking a hit from a poisoned weapon) and get into pretty bad shape from it, but taking dammage from the poison plus "bloodloss" dammage (when you don't have a wound other than small nick on your finger or something) would be double dipping.  There are also magickal things that can cause you to lose hps without having an actual wound, so you shouldn't be losing blood then either.


You want realism?  Go to the Storyteller World of Darkness system, where every human gets 7 hit points/dammage levels.  

Healthy
Bruised
Hurt   -1 penalty to all rolls
Injured   -2 penalty to all rolls
Wounded   -3 penalty to all rolls
Mauled   -4 penalty to all rolls
Crippled   -5 penalty to all rolls, plus one physical stat is reduced permanently


Healing time varies by the seriousness of the wounds:

Bruised  one day
Hurt     three days
Injured  one week
Wounded  one month
Mauled   three months
Crippled three months

Note:  Those times are cumulative so taking 3 dammage would make you injured, in one week you would become hurt, 3 days to become bruised and then 1 day to become healthy, for a total of 11 days to heal completely (assuming that you don't take more dammage durring that time).  Going from crippled to healthy takes over 7 months.

In this system a human has 1 to 5 points of strength, strength determins dammage of melee weapons, the average strength of a human is 2.  With a strength of 2, a knife does 3 levels of damage per hit, a saber does up to 6 levels, an axe does up to 7, so it is easy to become incapacitated from a single wound.  A rifle can do 7 levels of dammage per shot, a crossbow does 5.  The target can get that down using defensive skills, but it is still very easy for a human to be killed in a single round.


AC

[Sir Diealot]

Because, you know.. we don't specifically seek out Arm for it's realism.

(that's as close to not flaming as I can get right now)

[spawnloser]

Because, you know.. we don't specifically seek out Arm for it's realism.

(that's as close to not flaming as I can get right now)

Yes, but too much realism hurts playability.

[Sir Diealot]

point taken.. Though this leads us to a new problem -- Where's the line ?

Some seem to think it's /after/ bleed code.. or amputation.. or whatever.. other /before/.. So I guess it's up to staff.  

[Mr.Camel]

I always liked an idea someone put up some time ago( I think it was AC, not sure). If you use like, 40% of your HPs, your max hp would decrease for a while, similar to dehydration's affect on mvs.

[UnderSeven]

? think I said it, but anyway.

About vivs and regrowing limbs, I don't think we want to make the game more magick affected than it is, because if we had coded amputation plus vivs able to return limbs I think that would make the game take a huge step back into hack slash, where people more or less accept limb loss and just go seek out a viv to return it. What's next, viv reincarnation?

[jhunter]

It would also have to take into account of what caused the hp drop.

Yeah. That's one of my concerns about the idea as well...I tried to use an example to explain that but couldn't come up with a good one at the time.

The fleeing thing...ugh, I get so frustrated when people don't even fight it out for an exchange of attacks before fleeing as it is.

Personally on that note, I think there should be free attacks given against the one trying to flee. Basically a delay to fleeing combat similar to the one when you change opponents.

flee

You begin looking for an opening to escape.

*Attacker gets a free attack with a bonus.*

You flee west.

Something like that.

[Agent_137]

*stabs this thread and watches as it bleeds to death.*


most of the arguments i skimmed over on this page don't even address blood loss as part of the current damage, nor blood loss as something that might stop of it's own accord after a certain amount of hitpoints. I'm done with this thread. Blood loss code would be nifty if done right and a pain in the ass if done wrong. I'm tired of kicking this dead kank, but if you guys got more ideas, have at it.

[Sir Diealot]

Leave it to 137 to point out the fruitlessness of kicking a dead kank...

:cry:

[JollyGreenGiant]

Not if you're a Nilazi.

[Anonymous]

I am pleased.

6 pages, and still intelligent and thought out presentations. Splendid.

I'm not terribly irritated with the combat code as it is right now. Of course it could use some work, but hey, I mean, maybe one day it will be done. We could always use a virtual reality Zalanthas.

I like many of the ideas presented here. I, for one, think that if amputation is implemented, that it should be hard for it to happen. But I would love to see it. I absolutely think that combative classes should all have bandage to start off with. I absolutely think that the subclass of doctor should be more widely usable. I absolutely like the idea of chasing a prey across the desert, harrying them so that they cannot bandage their wounds fully. I absolutely like the idea of in-combat decapitations.
I dig three hit fights.

But then, I love Armageddon. I exhonorate those who have contributed to this discussion.

[Sir Diealot]

Yay..we've..pleased a guest ?

[Trenidor]

If you recall my idea, you'll notice that the bloodloss stops after you recover to the % of HP that causes you to not have the: bla is here bleeding lightly.

I'd like to add that if my idea were used, sleep would still work to recover from injuries, but your best bet would be to use a bandage. Maybe the incriment of bloodloss could be set so that you gain HP while sleeping faster than you loose blood. This would cause people that get knocked unconsious to a -hp point to be able to recover still if they are able to endure to the end.

The major change bloodloss would make is if you were to get injured, flee, and are walking around, you would be loosing blood causing you to have to stop and wait for the bloodloss to stop. Or you could bandage yourself and continue walking along. If you didn't, then you'd end up in serious condition.

[X-D]

Actually, I seem to remember a bloodloss code in arm, but I don't think it lasted very long, also, I believe an imm could give you the flag if you constantly ignored bad injuries...though, I could be wrong.

Me, I think it would mean a ton more apps for a while as huge numbers of pc's died in the desert and arm actually becoming a safer even less harsh place to be in the long run because player verses player combat would go down.

[Trenidor]

True, it isn't that hard though to learn to use a bandage. I think that everyone starts with the bandage skill, and player vs player already is starting to dwindle. It's been a while since I've see it, I'm not saying that it's not there, just that I must be lucky enough to never get involved. (and I'm one of the people that always plays player vs player characters)

If you play a stupid player killer, then ya, you'll most likely die pretty soon, but if you play one that know's their limits, when to stop a fight, when to continue, and that you've got to understand simple survival skills if you want to live being a PC killer, then you should last a little longer.

I know that most people that play injuries, will at least emote out that they're bleeding and that they are trying something to stop the bleeding. Why not just add in a crafting that allows you to rip off some of your cloak and turn it in to an insta blood stopper, only difference between it and a real bandage is that the insta blood stopper doesn't boost HP at all, just stops the bleeding. Then when you go to rip off your cloak, you can actaully have an item that will stop bleeding.  :wink:

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think that everyone starts with the bandage skill

Maybe you're just fortunate in your selection of class and subclass.  I have never had the bandage skill.

[Trenidor]

I guess it could just be the fighting classes.

In any case, I don't think that you'd need to know bandage if you weren't going to be bleeding all the time or in combat often.