You are wanted!

[Anonymous]

You are wanted...

Don't you just hate that? What I dislike more about this common phrase (to some) is that no matter where you are in the city, no matter how many npc or pc guards or people are around you, no matter what the time is, no matter the setting, you just can't get away with it. I don't know about some of you, but this is really frustrating. (Sorry, not trying to be harsh towards any imms..., please don't take this the wrong way  :roll: , just  making a suggestion in a negative way :cry:)

Anyways, as I've learned, there is supposedly guards in just about every corner of the major cities (Tuluk and Alanak to be more specific). When one commits a crime, the "made-up" guards or soldiers see you automatically and attempt to put you at arrest.

This is kind of stupid, and here's why:

1. There's no way that there is this many guards. There would have to be more guards than citizens!
2. Why is every guard extremely uber? This makes no sense as a common guard or soldier would have minimal training since all they do is watch the streets 24/7.

This is my arguement. (Please don't hate me imms!)

-If you agree to this or disagree, please comment!!!

[blah]

It's true, it doesnt make good roleplay either, invisible guard... hah.. i say only be wanted if you commit a crime that can possibly be seen/heard by anyone else. not imginary guard.

[Agent_137]

I haven't done anything illegal yet in the midst of a city, but I always thought that it depended on the room desc. A busy room during the day, you'll get seen by all the VNPCs. An empty side street in the dark of night? You should be able to get away with it. Why else have a thug subclass?

Give guards regular routes. Sneaking isn't just about being coded. If there's no guards but you get seen by a VNPC, have the guards come charging down the street, and not just appear in the room.

Like i said, I haven't had any personal experience with the criminal system, but this seems to be something that just plain makes sense.

[Larrath]

Allanak and Tuluk are both pretty damned enormous city-states, first of all.  If you look at their plazas and streets and all that, you'll see just how packed they are (especially 'Nak).

Second of all, why should the city-state NOT train its guards?  Okay, so guards are put out on the streets, but 24/7?  Think more realistically, there is a guard in that position, but it's not the same guard all the time.  They probably change shifts every half-day or so.  Yes, Allanak does have a lot of soldiers and guards, these people get a pretty solid pay and free food and water.

Considered what most Allanaki commoners get, that's a pretty good deal.

The guards are not THAT uber, either, at least as far as I know.  It's safe to assume that they fight like men and women in their prime (which they probably are) who have pretty good armor and weapons (which they probably have) and train and eat regularly (which they do).  Not to mention, of course, the training that these people get before they get assigned to watch the streets for errant half-giants and all that.

The time of day probably DOES matter, and I don't think it's true that it's impossible to attack people -anywhere- without getting away with it.
On the other hand, think about it like this.

You attack someone in the street and you can bet your ass that there will be some noise.  Combining this with the use of the Way, it does not take much to alert the guards to your presence.

I understand where you are coming from, but the best I can suggest is that if you get wanted in a room that you think should be 'safe', try typoing the room and possibly wishing up, depending on the sitution.


Clarification: I am not saying "If you get wanted, wish up", but if you get wanted attacking a stray mob inside "The Abandoned Alleyway", which is loaded with dust and has obviously (and specifically, by the desc) has not been visited for years, then you might want to wish up, if you think it's important enough.  Every rule has its exception, though, and a little prison time never hurt anyone, either.

[Ender]

In regards to your first point of the amount of guards, you have to remember it's not always a guard who sees you first.  Many of the commoners will rat you out for various reasons.

Blatantly attacking someone is loud unless you take care of it through clandestine means (knocking him/her out from behind, slitting his/her throat).  If you're going all out weapons slashing at someone you're going to alert the entire block as that NPC isn't going to just sit there and take it.  A sloppy murder is going to illicit an NPC screaming for help even if codewise they aren't actually screaming.

Stealing: if you fudge up a steal, the NPC/PC you stole from is going to be VERY pissed.  You may have just stole his/her livlihood.  Without the penance of 'sid or bread, that person may not live out the day.

Many onlookers report crimes for various reasons.  To get in good with the corrupt militia, or even to direct their attention away from their own crimes.  Maybe you picked on someone they knew.  Any number of reasons could be the reason.

The moral of this story is this subject have been given a tremendous amount of thought to over the years by player and staff alike.  I feel the system at the moment is very realistic given the limitations of the code at the moment.

[spawnloser]

First I will comment on 'suspension of disbelief.'  Yes, those mob npcs monitor 24/7.  Most of them wouldn't do so realistically, though.  It is probably best to think of them as having shifts that they switch through.

Second, you become wanted...the soldiers are all telepathic to some limited degree.  It is not too unrealistic for them to be able to pass that information along quite quickly.

Just a couple thoughts.

[ShaLeah]

You are wanted...

Don't you just hate that?

I hate

You are fighting for your life!

even more.  :cry:

[Carnage]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

[ShaLeah]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

And yet not one of those high teched gadgets have the ability to instantly contact someone through ESP to let them know they need to dispatch people to find a caucasian male about five ten weighing two hundred pounds with a scar in the middle of his forehead and blue eyes.
This is a magickal place, it's run by sorceror kings who have a tight grip on everyone's balls.

Playability people, use your imagination.

[Geekfreak]

I think this is an excellent point. The law enforcement in both major cities is too extreme and should be taken down a few notches.

Good point. Well made.

[Agent_137]

And yet not one of those high teched gadgets have the ability to instantly contact someone through ESP to let them know they need to dispatch people to find a caucasian male about five ten weighing two hundred pounds with a scar in the middle of his forehead and blue eyes.

the cell phone, maybe?


My question, if I've got my hood up, can I commit the crime, run, dive into a quiet space, change clothes, and be in the clear?

[SpyGuy]

You can still get away with many crimes, you just get wanted if you fail.

The unfair part is that, AFAIK you cant cover yourself up enough/use disguise enough to avoid detection.  There arent lineups, the police or whoever automatically know who you are.  A limitation of the code, but one I'm willing to personally overlook.

[spawnloser]

Maybe they spot you and have the dude that originally saw you contact your mind to identify you in that fashion?

[Carnage]

And yet not one of those high teched gadgets have the ability to instantly contact someone through ESP to let them know they need to dispatch people to find a caucasian male about five ten weighing two hundred pounds with a scar in the middle of his forehead and blue eyes.

the cell phone, maybe?


My question, if I've got my hood up, can I commit the crime, run, dive into a quiet space, change clothes, and be in the clear?

Along with police dispatch radios, which broadcast the signal to everyone listening rather than one at a time.

[waroth]

I could be wrong, but I think you forget about the virtual NPC population.  There very well could be guards around who are not NPC's but virtual NPC's.  I don't really see a large problem with it myself, but this is only my opinion.  I try to justify it in mind as either commoners saw you do it and shouted it to nearby virtual NPC guards or a virtual NPC guard saw you do it themselves.  I also imagine when you do commit it, it is like in RL when a criminal is spotted, the crowds part as the criminal runs away, leaving a clear trail for the guards to follows as other commoners point the direction you ran.  Who knows, maybe I am using a bit too much imagination.

[Bhagharva]

I noticed that those of you who know how to commit a crime successfully have been rather silent. Good for you. The dungeons need more lackluster thieves and murderers.  :twisted:

Crimes are commited every day in both city-states, some even go unpunished. If you are getting arrested and it wasn't a bug, you deserve every second of the time you spend in jail, which I might add, is a light sentance. The criminals almost always struggle, they almost always have a weapon out when the soldiers come. If you get attacked, and whupped, again you deserve it. I won't say that the justice system isn't harsh, thank goodness it is though.

I think that there should be just as many empty places as their are places full of npc's. I don't buy the argument that every square is full of NPC's and virtuall NPC's.

I think that part of the problem is that you need a lot of OOC knowledge about the code and game to be a sucessful thief and ppl delight in holding back info like that. That's just my opinion.

[Tamarin]

We've had this argument soooooooo many times.  Nothing is going to change.  It's fine as it is.  If you can't avoid the law, you aren't trying hard enough.

[Delirium]

You don't need a bunch of OOC info, you just need a healthy dose of common sense..

[Chronicle]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

And yet not one of those high teched gadgets have the ability to instantly contact someone through ESP to let them know they need to dispatch people to find a caucasian male about five ten weighing two hundred pounds with a scar in the middle of his forehead and blue eyes.
This is a magickal place, it's run by sorceror kings who have a tight grip on everyone's balls.

Playability people, use your imagination.

I disagree... Its called the news.

[Ralin]

I have yet to see the news just suddenly break in cause the Quicky Mart was robbed of five dollars and thirty cents, unless the clerk was killed, and in most cases, you still don't find that out until five 'o clock (or regulary scheduled news).

[Chronicle]

And thank you for yet another smart-ass remark when you know exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone is mostly speaking of openly attacking someone or murder which would be a far hideous crime than stealing $5 from some jackass working a late-night shift at a gas station. And as you put it, "unless the clerk was killed", thus proving my point :!:

[Callisto]

The crim code works well enough.

The problem is a lot of places have super NPCs and carefully scripted patrol routes/NPC placement to make sure there is no chance for a criminal PC to get more then six or seven squares without encountering an NPC super soldier.

Soldiers in Allanak enter the room and subdue in two unbroken lines of text*. If they fail, that block of unbroken text it extended to drawing weapons and making four to six attacks, plus an extra combat skill, in that same block of text.

Short of hiding and shadowing someone until your criminal flag wears off, the odds of pulling off a successful crime in public is almost impossible for the average rogue. That isn't even counting how insane people get about spreading the word on every PC thief that comes down the pipe, either.

We either need the NPCs toned down or some kind of time delay before the criminal flag kicks in, something to allow the virtual report to spread virtually, even if its just 10 seconds or so. Enough time to flee past a guard before he knows whats happening, or turn nosave on, or draw weapons and prepare to die.

*Like this:

Soldier arrives from east.
Soldier fails to grab you.
Soldier draws sword.
Soldier draws sword.
Soldier shouts inane battle cry.
Soldier slashes you.
Soldier slashes you.
Soldier slashes you.
Soldier slashes you.
Soldier fails to kick you.

[Pungee]

I hate to be the Evil One(TM) of the group but, you know for all the trouble the crim code has, like with how harsh it is and for how many criminals I've had that have died to it - I still like the crim code.

Yes, the soldiers first attack is disgustingly powerful, they tend to annhilate most PCs on the first impossibly one sided round. I've died more than once to that. But the thing is, nosave fixes that and you end up in jail, still quite alive.

Next, for as much as people say the Crim Code is impossible to beat, there still is a -great- deal of crime that happens without the perps ever being caught. That's because the criminals that can beat it took the time to learn how, this weeds out a lot of the standard and poorly played criminal types. So I think the crim code is just fine the way it was. If it werent for the fact that some newbies body is found every day or so, because he tried to commit a crime and fight the law afterwards, then I imagine we'd have tons and tons of criminals and no people with anything of value would be left alive or with things of value. Society would flip flop, oceans would form, the shield wall would crumble and we'd all be living under the thumb of the fish king.

Or something like that.

[sarahjc]

The one thing I do hate about the Crim-flag is the way you go down.. The soldiers are way too strong.. Most PC's don't even have a chance.. Also I agree that if you do get more than 4 rooms away that you have some chance of survival should you loose the cloak and drop the weapons you just used, or tossed the item you just stole. Not a great chance, because you do have "the way" to inform people. But if the city streets are as crowded as we all say.. I can only assume that you would be just as fast to get lost in a crowd as you are spotted in one.

Take NYC as the perfect example.. Around 1pm or so.. There are tons of people on the streets and thanks to the evens of recent years.. There are about 1-3 cops every 2 blocks or so.. Which is plenty of police presence and very comparable to Zalanthian standards I would think.. Lets start the scene on 6th Ave and 42nd street (AkA the north road)

I'll play it out like this..

Let's say that you are wearing a black hat, blue hooded jacket and a pair of Nike sneakers.. You have a Jansport backpack in your hand. (A face wrap, hooded cloak and a pair of sturdy traveling boots, canvas backpack)

You accidentally bump an unassuming passer by, and lift his wallet, he feels you do it, he grabs your hand and shouts "Theif!"  Now you break your hand free from him as a cop (legionnaire) is turning around to the see where the cry is coming from reaching for his Walky Talky  (the way) To lay out the scene and what he has seen over the crowd and call for assistance. Then as he is yelling into the walky talky (using the way), he gives you chase.

You flee.. East, You start running.. First block, you drop the wallet and your hood flies down (lower hood) in the sprint and you toss your hat. (rem face wrap) The first cop is so far back he hasn't seen you do that.  So now the description that he is give is skewed..

Then you run east again.

You run into Broadway and 42nd street Times Square (the red sun commons) The place is sprawling with people.. You have to push some out of the way as they give you dirty looks, but you find your way into a thick crowd and slow your pace to a walk. You take off your jacket, balling it up tightly and slip on your backpack. (rem cloak, wear backpack)  

As you move into the crowded street with a brisk yet unhurried walk, you take a glance over your shoulder.. You spot a few police officers (legionaries) looking very alert, there are maybe 4 that you can spot.. All seem to be looking for something.. You take a breath and cross when the light changes, along with the hordes of people.

At the next block you find an empty waist paper bin.. You toss in the jacket and move down a few more blocks. You find a small park and take a seat near the swings.. A couple of cops walk right by you, one is speaking about how his son clogged the toilet with a toy boat last night. They are laughing and walking at a leisurely pace.. They pay you no mind.. You take a deep breath and sigh.

Think: That was lucky.
Sorry for the long story.. But I do think it is unrealistic that a shadier type cannot escape the legion.. There should be room to get away.. Or at least hide, especially if you are taking efforts to hide what you look like from the start. Not to say that it should be all the time.. But  50/50 shot of getting caught, but still getting off with it..

Just my take on it with a real life example anyway..

[TripleX]

As you said before, there are 2-3 cops in every corner.  You run east, while the cop behind you gestures to the cop at the corner to block you... OR the cop is shouting behind your back "STOP OR I SHOOT!" next thing you know, you feel a sharp pain at the back of your head and... *beep* Welcome to Earth.

Seriously, I think that the crime code can't be better than what it is right now.   It's not a real world, so just learn how to live with it, and be a better thief. I would love you give you some hints, but that will ruin the game for you. Bottom line, what am I saying? Crime rules! Got it?

[da mitey warrior]

...or it could go down like this....

The people on the street notice you're a creepy guy wearing a baseball cap funnily trying to cover your face + wearing a large, drooping, face-covering hood on a sunny day and they start eyeing you suspiciously and holding onto their purses/wallets closely.   You try to look casual and walk up close beside people, but they just look at you funny and avoid you.

A police officer sees you acting suspiciously and approaches you to ask some questions.  Of course, you don't see him because your hood has blocked most of your peripheral vision and he manages to grab your arm.  You panic because you are known to the police and are wanted for a few other petty crimes, so you break free and run.

A concerned citizen sees you running from the police and tackles you (or at least slows you down and lets the cop catch up).  Game over.


Making the crim code more realistic goes both ways.

A concerned citizen sees you running from the police and tackles you (or at least slows you down and lets the cop catch up).  Game over.

Is the mud full of goody goody do gooder's now? Stop evil doer! I love the law and for breaking it I shall capture you and turn you over to the proper authorities.

And stuff like nosave on, a lot of new player don't pick up on that right off. Althought I think its quite important.[/b]

[sarahjc]

I picked a NYC street.. Do you know how many people are on the street at once.. It's hard to walk around people never mind pick someone out of a crowd. And I have seen a guys running down the street. .Hell I don't know why they are running.. and I never care.. And three cops having a coffee clutch in a corner of one block posted every two to three.. They really aren't all that alert. I view the streets of Arm cities in the same light.


Think about what a packed street is.. Narrow...Tents on either side.  Humans, dwarves, elves, half giants all walking around.. some with hoods cloaks up.. some without.. Filthy beggars loitering on the doorsteps of buildings, vendors selling their wares.. People carrying bags, and baskets on their heads or strapped across their arms.. It would be just as easy to be forgotten about as it would to be noticed I suspect.

In fact I would say take it a step further and judge weather  or not a person gets caught on room to room basis.. along with the room description..

Rooms that are Bazar like, or known to have very thick traffic, Pavilions. I'd give you a 65% chance that you will get the crim flag, should you get caught doing something sneaky and flee.

Roads that people travel on less frequently or have less obstacles.. Maybe if you get caught that you have 90% of the crim flag.

Dark alleyways that are dim and scary. 10% that you get the flag.

I just think it is unrealistic to assume that everyone will know who that cloaked figure with the face wrap is if they get caught with a hand in your pocket and try to run. I would like there to be a chance that the clumsy crooks can still get away even if it is slim. But I don't really know if that is coadeable or a worthwhile endevor.

[X-D]

The one thing I do hate about the Crim-flag is the way you go down.. The soldiers are way too strong.. Most PC's don't even have a chance

MOST pc's should NOT have a chance...also, the soldiers are really pretty weak. I've had many PC's that could easily kill them, some could stand in place and make a pile of corpses as they walked in (never did though) almost any 30day warrior or ranger is more then a match for most the city's soldiers, but then they are not normaly the ones commiting crimes inside the city. No, it is the POORLY trained pickpocket, burgler or assassin, at which point, YES, these trained soldiers are gonna stomp all over you.

As to getting away with crims..it is done, it can be done and just with a bit of thought...if you can't figure out ways, maybe you just are not cut out to play the criminal types.

[marko]

At issue is playability versus reality.  

The criminal code is not perfect and yet in its imperfect form it is very possible to commit crimes and get away with them.

The system is harsh - but then, so is the world.  The problem is that if you attempt to 'tone down' the criminal system we'll see dozens of petty criminals running rampant.  They will abuse the system as best they can.  

Anyway, there is one other thing I'd like to point out as to why I don't agree with your example or any similar example.

You are using an American city.  The USA is a free nation.  Freedom is held in great esteem and valued.  If your scenario played out in say, Bhagdad before the US went there, you'd have the criminal's head in a noose before they made two blocks.  The mentality is different.  

I view the citystates as oppressive in nature.  Where the police force is brutal, corrupt, and powerful.  Where the people struggle to live and any crime can be punishable by death.  In this culture people will gladly see another suffer - it brings them a moment of gladness to their hearts ("at least that isn't me").  In the environment of the cities - the people will stone someone to death - not because they are evil but because they are damned glad that it isn't them being stoned.

In the cities of Armageddon five 'sid is a matter of eating or starving.  Telling the templarate immediately of any crime witnessed is a matter of survival or death.  If it comes out that you did NOT report a crime - guess who comes knocking?  They don't ask questions.  There's no reason to.  You will either be slaughtered right there and then, brought to the arena, (Allanak in both these cases) or you will be 'dissapeared' (Tuluk).

Please, always keep in mind just how brutal these societies are.  Remember how oppressed and repressed its peoples are.  Try to keep in mind that merely surviving is an achievement worthy of note.  This is not the same environment as one would find in North America or any Western Nation.

Once again - the moment someone commits a crime and is spotted it is in the best interest of the witnesses to immediately report it as fast as they can so they do not get charged with being involved.  

All that being said - I would like to see the double attack of the soldiers fixed when they enter, sheath weapons, fail a subdue, and attack.  But that's another matter entirely.  For all I know, it has been fixed.

[Vettrock]

First, I agree that the comparision to a US city does not apply.  There are many places in some middle eastern countrys where if someone yells thief and you're running through a crowded area, your chances of getting away are pretty small.

Second although the crimimal code is harsh, there are those that have found their way around it, and if it was made lighter, crime would be even more rampant.

[Pungee]

Is the mud full of goody goody do gooder's now? Stop evil doer! I love the law and for breaking it I shall capture you and turn you over to the proper authorities.

It is if there's a templar around. Suddenly everyone and their mom wants to help out the law.

[Angela Christine]

The soldiers are a little more efficient than one would expect.  The sentences are considerably lighter than one would expect.  It all balances out.  

Half a day in the prison for commiting a crime?  Come on, even Canadian sentences aren't that soft.  You ought to spend at least half a day in prision just -waiting- for your sentence.  How about we make things more realistic by making the NPC soldiers a little less organized with a delay on their abilities, and now instead of arresting you and turning you loose 20 minutes later the soldiers chop off one of your hands the first time you are caught stealing, and the second time they kill you.  That would reduce the amount of complaining, right?  :roll:


I don't see the problem.  I don't have extensive experiences with the crim code, but the encouters I've had didn't seem that bad.  For example:  Once I had a ranger that found a crossbow bolt in the desert, and tried to sell it in Allanak.  Unexpectedly it was a militia crossbow bolt, and she immediately became wanted.  She soon encountered a soldier that failed to subdue her, and attacked!  She took a few hits and fled, not taking enough damage that she needed to sleep.  A 2 or 3 day ranger, in light desert armor, not exactly uber.  After remembering nosave I toggled it on (like I said, I don't encounter the crim code that often).  Then I made it from the Bazaar into the 'rinth without any trouble at all.  Ooooh, scary.

An unplanned crime, by an inexperience "criminal" and she got away scot-free.  How much easier do you want it to be?


AC

[Kalden]

I think Dead Newbie was right when he said that it takes a lot of OOC knowledge and tricks and people delight in holding that stuff back. Common sense doesn't hurt either, but it's something that most newbies have only in short supply.

I highly reccomend playing a pickpocket the first few times. Way easier to survive. It's the best way to pick up the tricks.

As for getting away with crimes, you can always work your hide skill and spend hours hiding...

[Angela Christine]

If you haven't already read them, help citizenship and help criminal may be helpful.

CRIMINAL

While most of the Known World is completely lawless, all centers of civilization possess some sort of penal code, and Allanak in particular. Since most of the population lives in these centers, the following applies mostly to them--villages and outposts usually have scaled-down versions of these rules, and usually do not involve templars. Bounty hunters that catch criminals can hand them over to the soldiers to avoid being reprimanded for obstruction of justice. The following are ways to become branded a criminal:

  1.Offend a templar.
Templars have complete power over who is and is not considered a criminal, and can accuse anyone of any crime whenever they wish  (except other templars, of course). The fact of any real crime or the existence or lack of evidence makes no difference. If a templar says you are guilty, you are guilty.

  2.Be witnessed committing a murder.
Citizens will report such crimes quite quickly to the templars. (Be warned, any room which says it is full of people is full of virtual NPCs who will report crimes, so there does not have to be an actual hard-coded NPC there to see your character's crime.)

  3.Be seen committing a theft.
See the rule for virtual NPCs under number 2.

This list is not comprehensive, and one may find he/she is a criminal for any number of other reasons. There are several ways to absolve yourself from crimes, and have the label of criminal lifted:

  1.Die.
Dying will remove your criminal status. However, this is not usually a desirable option.

  2.Bribe a templar.
Templars have the power to pardon any criminal, and may or may not do so if bribed.

  3.Leave the city.
The lists of criminals which Templars maintain is large, and after a while people will usually forget your crime. This can take as long as several weeks, however, which are best spent in another city or in hiding.

  4.Spend time in the dungeons.
One can pay his/her time in the city prisons by turning oneself in or by being caught or allowing oneself to be caught (see "help nosave").

Note:
    Penalties for crimes are generally much more severe
for non-citizens than for citizens. It is thus a particularly bad idea to be caught committing a crime in somewhere other than your character's hometown.

CITIZENSHIP

For many free citizens, the fact of citizenship in one city-state or another means simply which yoke one is oppressed under. Curiously, for both nobles and slaves alike, it can mean a great deal. From the perspective of the templars, however, comes the most important aspect of citizenship.

Justice may be applied very differently to citizens and non-citizens, and can mean the difference between a short stay in the dungeons and summary execution. In other words, citizens of a place are treated more leniently than are non-citizens. Remember that Zalanthas is a harsh world, and some seemingly harmless crimes may be punished with the death of the offending character.

One's citizenship can be changed by accepting the citizenship of another city or village (in which case the original citizenship is always lost). Or, one might lose his citizenship due to excessive criminal activities within a city-state.

AC

[TripleX]

Speaking of citizenship, how can a Templar tell if my character is a citizen or not (except for my accent). It's not like I'm carrying a passport on me...  

[Quirk]

Telling the templarate immediately of any crime witnessed is a matter of survival or death.  If it comes out that you did NOT report a crime - guess who comes knocking?  They don't ask questions.  There's no reason to.  You will either be slaughtered right there and then, brought to the arena, (Allanak in both these cases) or you will be 'dissapeared' (Tuluk).

The small point that's being neglected here, in my opinion, is that the templars and militia have no real reason to care about minor crimes. They are not there to enforce justice, merely "order", and "order" is defined as keeping everyone influential happy. I don't think that in game there should be the sharp borderline between policing in the 'Rinth (all poor people, no-one cares) and the Commoners' Quarter (mostly poor people, with the odd person who should be protected) that there actually is. If Joe Half-breed gets his last twenty sid stolen, how much effort would one of the militia put in to getting it back? I don't see them waying one another and combing the streets for the fugitive. I think people are misunderstanding the functioning of a police state - a police state is not a loving institution with a deep and abiding interest in justice for the little people, but a brutal and oppressive regime designed to keep those who run it firmly on top.

Again IMO, the templars are more likely to punish you for wasting their time if you come running to them with news of a stolen fifteen-sid dagger than punish people who don't step forward to speak of it. People being seen to cover for a notorious criminal who has been targetting the nobility will almost certainly die, yes, but those who're disinclined to bother the templarate with news of petty crimes are not going to suffer. Hell, I'd expect many of the militia and templars to demand bribes as the price of justice.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I'd say that the exact reason why the militia or even a low-level templar would be interested in a stolen dagger is order.  Not because Joe Allanaki losing a dagger represents a present danger but because the theft is an act defying established law.  If minor infractions against the law are allowed to go on it represents a fracturing of the order that Templars and the militia are in place to protect.

[jmordetsky]

In reference to the very light prison terms....

Longer Prison terms are going to be unplayable...but how they are now are a little silly.

I'm thinking maybe there should be a series of punishments that were brutal, but didn't involve prision. For example stealing:

1) 1st offense - Facial Branding - You receive a face "tattoo" marking you as a thief.

2) 2nd offense - Loose a hand

3) 3rd offense - Death or Prison (see below in reference to prison)

The other idea I had, was to make a "prison" area, sort of like some kind of underground tunneling system. If you are deemed a murderer or something of the like you could be stripped of anything of value and tossed into the prison area which was filled with half starved inmates.  If you are a big dog or a sneaky bastard you might find a way out or wait out your extended stay, which should be increased as you won't be sitting around twiddling.. and maybe you can have

If you don't....well prisons are tough places.

This would make crime have playable consequences as opposed to the "Timeout" that you get now.

:goes and sits in the corner.


Also, back in the day, if you went to prison, they took all your stuff. When you got out you were thrown into the street with only a loin cloth.

Where did this go? This was one of the best parts of the game imho.

[flurry]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

[marko]

The small point that's being neglected here, in my opinion, is that the templars and militia have no real reason to care about minor crimes.

And the point you missed was that the crimes that I was talking about are those that are noticed.  Any crime where the perpetrator fails miserably so that everyone sees is a flagrant act against the will of the City State.  

I agree the minor crimes are not cared about it is the act of failure that needs to be kept in check.  If those who fail at these crimes were left alone - then that would be saying the Templarate (and thus law and order) is incapable of policing.  The moment that happens - the populace would slowly vere towards uprising.

The templarate keeps order, it keeps the people in line, and it keeps them safe.  

I agree with you on the justice bit as well - they don't care about justice they care about the _appearance_ of justice.  That has to be maintained and thus any failed act or any criminal stupid enough to be noticed must be dealt with.

I don't think that in game there should be the sharp borderline between policing in the 'Rinth (all poor people, no-one cares) and the Commoners' Quarter (mostly poor people, with the odd person who should be protected) that there actually is.

Seperate issue.  You may wish to start a new thread about this.

If Joe Half-breed gets his last twenty sid stolen, how much effort would one of the militia put in to getting it back? I don't see them waying one another and combing the streets for the fugitive. I think people are misunderstanding the functioning of a police state - a police state is not a loving institution with a deep and abiding interest in justice for the little people, but a brutal and oppressive regime designed to keep those who run it firmly on top.

No effort would be put into it if the crime was clean.  If the thief was noticed by everyone at the moment of the crime - then the soldiers would chase down the thief and either cut him down on the street or haul him to jail.  In jail a few things could occur - anything from serving a few hours of jail time, being hired, execution, to being sent to the Arena.  Whatever the templars care to do on their own whim.  Justice is irrelevant.  Once again, it is the appearance of stability and security that is paramount.

Again IMO, the templars are more likely to punish you for wasting their time if you come running to them with news of a stolen fifteen-sid dagger than punish people who don't step forward to speak of it.

I agree with the initial comment - a templar will more than likely 'fine' (or worse) you for wasting their time on a 'lost' dagger.  At the same time, if a crime is commited and it is failed in such a manner that everyone sees it and you do not report it - I can see the templar deciding that you were part of that crime.  Once more, I stress, it is the appearance of security and stability that is the function of the templarate.  If these failures are not punished then there would be no faith in the Templarate.

Hell, I'd expect many of the militia and templars to demand bribes as the price of justice.

Once again, I completely agree with you.  There is no justice but there is a semblance security that allows the common folk to well, feel secure.  If they didn't - they would riot.  

The difference is an act of crime that one gets away with versus a crime that is so bungled that everyone is jarred by it.  You simply cannot allow people to run down the street and assault one another in broad daylight.  You cannot allow thieves to run into people and just rip their items off of them in full view of everyone.  

On the flip side, it can be quite profitable to allow a thief to operate under your own watch - getting a fair bit of coin from the profits of his actions and then should the thief hit a rich mark and said rich mark comes to you about the robbery... well, for an instant sizeable 'donation' you can hand them the thief.  On top of that - you now get all of the thief's holdings as your own.  This is a very probable and likely scenario.

The templarate is corrupt and everyone knows it.  But everyone also knows that those who fail will be punished, often in the most brutal and extreme of methods - this then keeps the semblance of security.  And it's this semblance that allows the commoners to walk the streets without being armed, without fear (other than the fear of the templarate), and keeps them safe.  The price for safety is their freedom.  A commoner has almost no rights and even those few can and will be violated by the templarate at a whim - and yet... they are safe.  If petty crimes that were failures were allowed to exist this belief in safety would be lost.

It is one thing to know that crimes are being committed - it is another thing to SEE them being committed without punishment.  So long as the criminals are chased down on the street, so long as there are executions in the arena (or criminals are dissapeared), so long as the 'police' presence is significant, then the commoners will remain common.  

This, of course, leaves out slaves.  Slaves are another issue entirely as well.

[Carnage]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Correct, because they aren't seen and it isn't known that they're stealing something at that moment. These people are seen doing it, recorded on camera doing it, and they still manage to escape capture. In contrast, successful stealing usually results in the victim not knowing who did it and therefore being unable to report it.

[Geekfreak]

flurry wrote:
Carnage wrote:
People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.


People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Not in any types of stores they can't!

[Geekfreak]

Flurry wrote:
People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

Carnage wrote:
People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Not in any types of stores they can't!

[Geekfreak]

Oops, my bad!