You are wanted!

[TripleX]

As you said before, there are 2-3 cops in every corner.  You run east, while the cop behind you gestures to the cop at the corner to block you... OR the cop is shouting behind your back "STOP OR I SHOOT!" next thing you know, you feel a sharp pain at the back of your head and... *beep* Welcome to Earth.

Seriously, I think that the crime code can't be better than what it is right now.   It's not a real world, so just learn how to live with it, and be a better thief. I would love you give you some hints, but that will ruin the game for you. Bottom line, what am I saying? Crime rules! Got it?

[da mitey warrior]

...or it could go down like this....

The people on the street notice you're a creepy guy wearing a baseball cap funnily trying to cover your face + wearing a large, drooping, face-covering hood on a sunny day and they start eyeing you suspiciously and holding onto their purses/wallets closely.   You try to look casual and walk up close beside people, but they just look at you funny and avoid you.

A police officer sees you acting suspiciously and approaches you to ask some questions.  Of course, you don't see him because your hood has blocked most of your peripheral vision and he manages to grab your arm.  You panic because you are known to the police and are wanted for a few other petty crimes, so you break free and run.

A concerned citizen sees you running from the police and tackles you (or at least slows you down and lets the cop catch up).  Game over.


Making the crim code more realistic goes both ways.

A concerned citizen sees you running from the police and tackles you (or at least slows you down and lets the cop catch up).  Game over.

Is the mud full of goody goody do gooder's now? Stop evil doer! I love the law and for breaking it I shall capture you and turn you over to the proper authorities.

And stuff like nosave on, a lot of new player don't pick up on that right off. Althought I think its quite important.[/b]

[sarahjc]

I picked a NYC street.. Do you know how many people are on the street at once.. It's hard to walk around people never mind pick someone out of a crowd. And I have seen a guys running down the street. .Hell I don't know why they are running.. and I never care.. And three cops having a coffee clutch in a corner of one block posted every two to three.. They really aren't all that alert. I view the streets of Arm cities in the same light.


Think about what a packed street is.. Narrow...Tents on either side.  Humans, dwarves, elves, half giants all walking around.. some with hoods cloaks up.. some without.. Filthy beggars loitering on the doorsteps of buildings, vendors selling their wares.. People carrying bags, and baskets on their heads or strapped across their arms.. It would be just as easy to be forgotten about as it would to be noticed I suspect.

In fact I would say take it a step further and judge weather  or not a person gets caught on room to room basis.. along with the room description..

Rooms that are Bazar like, or known to have very thick traffic, Pavilions. I'd give you a 65% chance that you will get the crim flag, should you get caught doing something sneaky and flee.

Roads that people travel on less frequently or have less obstacles.. Maybe if you get caught that you have 90% of the crim flag.

Dark alleyways that are dim and scary. 10% that you get the flag.

I just think it is unrealistic to assume that everyone will know who that cloaked figure with the face wrap is if they get caught with a hand in your pocket and try to run. I would like there to be a chance that the clumsy crooks can still get away even if it is slim. But I don't really know if that is coadeable or a worthwhile endevor.

[X-D]

The one thing I do hate about the Crim-flag is the way you go down.. The soldiers are way too strong.. Most PC's don't even have a chance

MOST pc's should NOT have a chance...also, the soldiers are really pretty weak. I've had many PC's that could easily kill them, some could stand in place and make a pile of corpses as they walked in (never did though) almost any 30day warrior or ranger is more then a match for most the city's soldiers, but then they are not normaly the ones commiting crimes inside the city. No, it is the POORLY trained pickpocket, burgler or assassin, at which point, YES, these trained soldiers are gonna stomp all over you.

As to getting away with crims..it is done, it can be done and just with a bit of thought...if you can't figure out ways, maybe you just are not cut out to play the criminal types.

[marko]

At issue is playability versus reality.  

The criminal code is not perfect and yet in its imperfect form it is very possible to commit crimes and get away with them.

The system is harsh - but then, so is the world.  The problem is that if you attempt to 'tone down' the criminal system we'll see dozens of petty criminals running rampant.  They will abuse the system as best they can.  

Anyway, there is one other thing I'd like to point out as to why I don't agree with your example or any similar example.

You are using an American city.  The USA is a free nation.  Freedom is held in great esteem and valued.  If your scenario played out in say, Bhagdad before the US went there, you'd have the criminal's head in a noose before they made two blocks.  The mentality is different.  

I view the citystates as oppressive in nature.  Where the police force is brutal, corrupt, and powerful.  Where the people struggle to live and any crime can be punishable by death.  In this culture people will gladly see another suffer - it brings them a moment of gladness to their hearts ("at least that isn't me").  In the environment of the cities - the people will stone someone to death - not because they are evil but because they are damned glad that it isn't them being stoned.

In the cities of Armageddon five 'sid is a matter of eating or starving.  Telling the templarate immediately of any crime witnessed is a matter of survival or death.  If it comes out that you did NOT report a crime - guess who comes knocking?  They don't ask questions.  There's no reason to.  You will either be slaughtered right there and then, brought to the arena, (Allanak in both these cases) or you will be 'dissapeared' (Tuluk).

Please, always keep in mind just how brutal these societies are.  Remember how oppressed and repressed its peoples are.  Try to keep in mind that merely surviving is an achievement worthy of note.  This is not the same environment as one would find in North America or any Western Nation.

Once again - the moment someone commits a crime and is spotted it is in the best interest of the witnesses to immediately report it as fast as they can so they do not get charged with being involved.  

All that being said - I would like to see the double attack of the soldiers fixed when they enter, sheath weapons, fail a subdue, and attack.  But that's another matter entirely.  For all I know, it has been fixed.

[Vettrock]

First, I agree that the comparision to a US city does not apply.  There are many places in some middle eastern countrys where if someone yells thief and you're running through a crowded area, your chances of getting away are pretty small.

Second although the crimimal code is harsh, there are those that have found their way around it, and if it was made lighter, crime would be even more rampant.

[Pungee]

Is the mud full of goody goody do gooder's now? Stop evil doer! I love the law and for breaking it I shall capture you and turn you over to the proper authorities.

It is if there's a templar around. Suddenly everyone and their mom wants to help out the law.

[Angela Christine]

The soldiers are a little more efficient than one would expect.  The sentences are considerably lighter than one would expect.  It all balances out.  

Half a day in the prison for commiting a crime?  Come on, even Canadian sentences aren't that soft.  You ought to spend at least half a day in prision just -waiting- for your sentence.  How about we make things more realistic by making the NPC soldiers a little less organized with a delay on their abilities, and now instead of arresting you and turning you loose 20 minutes later the soldiers chop off one of your hands the first time you are caught stealing, and the second time they kill you.  That would reduce the amount of complaining, right?  :roll:


I don't see the problem.  I don't have extensive experiences with the crim code, but the encouters I've had didn't seem that bad.  For example:  Once I had a ranger that found a crossbow bolt in the desert, and tried to sell it in Allanak.  Unexpectedly it was a militia crossbow bolt, and she immediately became wanted.  She soon encountered a soldier that failed to subdue her, and attacked!  She took a few hits and fled, not taking enough damage that she needed to sleep.  A 2 or 3 day ranger, in light desert armor, not exactly uber.  After remembering nosave I toggled it on (like I said, I don't encounter the crim code that often).  Then I made it from the Bazaar into the 'rinth without any trouble at all.  Ooooh, scary.

An unplanned crime, by an inexperience "criminal" and she got away scot-free.  How much easier do you want it to be?


AC

[Kalden]

I think Dead Newbie was right when he said that it takes a lot of OOC knowledge and tricks and people delight in holding that stuff back. Common sense doesn't hurt either, but it's something that most newbies have only in short supply.

I highly reccomend playing a pickpocket the first few times. Way easier to survive. It's the best way to pick up the tricks.

As for getting away with crimes, you can always work your hide skill and spend hours hiding...

[Angela Christine]

If you haven't already read them, help citizenship and help criminal may be helpful.

CRIMINAL

While most of the Known World is completely lawless, all centers of civilization possess some sort of penal code, and Allanak in particular. Since most of the population lives in these centers, the following applies mostly to them--villages and outposts usually have scaled-down versions of these rules, and usually do not involve templars. Bounty hunters that catch criminals can hand them over to the soldiers to avoid being reprimanded for obstruction of justice. The following are ways to become branded a criminal:

  1.Offend a templar.
Templars have complete power over who is and is not considered a criminal, and can accuse anyone of any crime whenever they wish  (except other templars, of course). The fact of any real crime or the existence or lack of evidence makes no difference. If a templar says you are guilty, you are guilty.

  2.Be witnessed committing a murder.
Citizens will report such crimes quite quickly to the templars. (Be warned, any room which says it is full of people is full of virtual NPCs who will report crimes, so there does not have to be an actual hard-coded NPC there to see your character's crime.)

  3.Be seen committing a theft.
See the rule for virtual NPCs under number 2.

This list is not comprehensive, and one may find he/she is a criminal for any number of other reasons. There are several ways to absolve yourself from crimes, and have the label of criminal lifted:

  1.Die.
Dying will remove your criminal status. However, this is not usually a desirable option.

  2.Bribe a templar.
Templars have the power to pardon any criminal, and may or may not do so if bribed.

  3.Leave the city.
The lists of criminals which Templars maintain is large, and after a while people will usually forget your crime. This can take as long as several weeks, however, which are best spent in another city or in hiding.

  4.Spend time in the dungeons.
One can pay his/her time in the city prisons by turning oneself in or by being caught or allowing oneself to be caught (see "help nosave").

Note:
    Penalties for crimes are generally much more severe
for non-citizens than for citizens. It is thus a particularly bad idea to be caught committing a crime in somewhere other than your character's hometown.

CITIZENSHIP

For many free citizens, the fact of citizenship in one city-state or another means simply which yoke one is oppressed under. Curiously, for both nobles and slaves alike, it can mean a great deal. From the perspective of the templars, however, comes the most important aspect of citizenship.

Justice may be applied very differently to citizens and non-citizens, and can mean the difference between a short stay in the dungeons and summary execution. In other words, citizens of a place are treated more leniently than are non-citizens. Remember that Zalanthas is a harsh world, and some seemingly harmless crimes may be punished with the death of the offending character.

One's citizenship can be changed by accepting the citizenship of another city or village (in which case the original citizenship is always lost). Or, one might lose his citizenship due to excessive criminal activities within a city-state.

AC

[TripleX]

Speaking of citizenship, how can a Templar tell if my character is a citizen or not (except for my accent). It's not like I'm carrying a passport on me...  

[Quirk]

Telling the templarate immediately of any crime witnessed is a matter of survival or death.  If it comes out that you did NOT report a crime - guess who comes knocking?  They don't ask questions.  There's no reason to.  You will either be slaughtered right there and then, brought to the arena, (Allanak in both these cases) or you will be 'dissapeared' (Tuluk).

The small point that's being neglected here, in my opinion, is that the templars and militia have no real reason to care about minor crimes. They are not there to enforce justice, merely "order", and "order" is defined as keeping everyone influential happy. I don't think that in game there should be the sharp borderline between policing in the 'Rinth (all poor people, no-one cares) and the Commoners' Quarter (mostly poor people, with the odd person who should be protected) that there actually is. If Joe Half-breed gets his last twenty sid stolen, how much effort would one of the militia put in to getting it back? I don't see them waying one another and combing the streets for the fugitive. I think people are misunderstanding the functioning of a police state - a police state is not a loving institution with a deep and abiding interest in justice for the little people, but a brutal and oppressive regime designed to keep those who run it firmly on top.

Again IMO, the templars are more likely to punish you for wasting their time if you come running to them with news of a stolen fifteen-sid dagger than punish people who don't step forward to speak of it. People being seen to cover for a notorious criminal who has been targetting the nobility will almost certainly die, yes, but those who're disinclined to bother the templarate with news of petty crimes are not going to suffer. Hell, I'd expect many of the militia and templars to demand bribes as the price of justice.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I'd say that the exact reason why the militia or even a low-level templar would be interested in a stolen dagger is order.  Not because Joe Allanaki losing a dagger represents a present danger but because the theft is an act defying established law.  If minor infractions against the law are allowed to go on it represents a fracturing of the order that Templars and the militia are in place to protect.

[jmordetsky]

In reference to the very light prison terms....

Longer Prison terms are going to be unplayable...but how they are now are a little silly.

I'm thinking maybe there should be a series of punishments that were brutal, but didn't involve prision. For example stealing:

1) 1st offense - Facial Branding - You receive a face "tattoo" marking you as a thief.

2) 2nd offense - Loose a hand

3) 3rd offense - Death or Prison (see below in reference to prison)

The other idea I had, was to make a "prison" area, sort of like some kind of underground tunneling system. If you are deemed a murderer or something of the like you could be stripped of anything of value and tossed into the prison area which was filled with half starved inmates.  If you are a big dog or a sneaky bastard you might find a way out or wait out your extended stay, which should be increased as you won't be sitting around twiddling.. and maybe you can have

If you don't....well prisons are tough places.

This would make crime have playable consequences as opposed to the "Timeout" that you get now.

:goes and sits in the corner.


Also, back in the day, if you went to prison, they took all your stuff. When you got out you were thrown into the street with only a loin cloth.

Where did this go? This was one of the best parts of the game imho.

[flurry]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

[marko]

The small point that's being neglected here, in my opinion, is that the templars and militia have no real reason to care about minor crimes.

And the point you missed was that the crimes that I was talking about are those that are noticed.  Any crime where the perpetrator fails miserably so that everyone sees is a flagrant act against the will of the City State.  

I agree the minor crimes are not cared about it is the act of failure that needs to be kept in check.  If those who fail at these crimes were left alone - then that would be saying the Templarate (and thus law and order) is incapable of policing.  The moment that happens - the populace would slowly vere towards uprising.

The templarate keeps order, it keeps the people in line, and it keeps them safe.  

I agree with you on the justice bit as well - they don't care about justice they care about the _appearance_ of justice.  That has to be maintained and thus any failed act or any criminal stupid enough to be noticed must be dealt with.

I don't think that in game there should be the sharp borderline between policing in the 'Rinth (all poor people, no-one cares) and the Commoners' Quarter (mostly poor people, with the odd person who should be protected) that there actually is.

Seperate issue.  You may wish to start a new thread about this.

If Joe Half-breed gets his last twenty sid stolen, how much effort would one of the militia put in to getting it back? I don't see them waying one another and combing the streets for the fugitive. I think people are misunderstanding the functioning of a police state - a police state is not a loving institution with a deep and abiding interest in justice for the little people, but a brutal and oppressive regime designed to keep those who run it firmly on top.

No effort would be put into it if the crime was clean.  If the thief was noticed by everyone at the moment of the crime - then the soldiers would chase down the thief and either cut him down on the street or haul him to jail.  In jail a few things could occur - anything from serving a few hours of jail time, being hired, execution, to being sent to the Arena.  Whatever the templars care to do on their own whim.  Justice is irrelevant.  Once again, it is the appearance of stability and security that is paramount.

Again IMO, the templars are more likely to punish you for wasting their time if you come running to them with news of a stolen fifteen-sid dagger than punish people who don't step forward to speak of it.

I agree with the initial comment - a templar will more than likely 'fine' (or worse) you for wasting their time on a 'lost' dagger.  At the same time, if a crime is commited and it is failed in such a manner that everyone sees it and you do not report it - I can see the templar deciding that you were part of that crime.  Once more, I stress, it is the appearance of security and stability that is the function of the templarate.  If these failures are not punished then there would be no faith in the Templarate.

Hell, I'd expect many of the militia and templars to demand bribes as the price of justice.

Once again, I completely agree with you.  There is no justice but there is a semblance security that allows the common folk to well, feel secure.  If they didn't - they would riot.  

The difference is an act of crime that one gets away with versus a crime that is so bungled that everyone is jarred by it.  You simply cannot allow people to run down the street and assault one another in broad daylight.  You cannot allow thieves to run into people and just rip their items off of them in full view of everyone.  

On the flip side, it can be quite profitable to allow a thief to operate under your own watch - getting a fair bit of coin from the profits of his actions and then should the thief hit a rich mark and said rich mark comes to you about the robbery... well, for an instant sizeable 'donation' you can hand them the thief.  On top of that - you now get all of the thief's holdings as your own.  This is a very probable and likely scenario.

The templarate is corrupt and everyone knows it.  But everyone also knows that those who fail will be punished, often in the most brutal and extreme of methods - this then keeps the semblance of security.  And it's this semblance that allows the commoners to walk the streets without being armed, without fear (other than the fear of the templarate), and keeps them safe.  The price for safety is their freedom.  A commoner has almost no rights and even those few can and will be violated by the templarate at a whim - and yet... they are safe.  If petty crimes that were failures were allowed to exist this belief in safety would be lost.

It is one thing to know that crimes are being committed - it is another thing to SEE them being committed without punishment.  So long as the criminals are chased down on the street, so long as there are executions in the arena (or criminals are dissapeared), so long as the 'police' presence is significant, then the commoners will remain common.  

This, of course, leaves out slaves.  Slaves are another issue entirely as well.

[Carnage]

People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Correct, because they aren't seen and it isn't known that they're stealing something at that moment. These people are seen doing it, recorded on camera doing it, and they still manage to escape capture. In contrast, successful stealing usually results in the victim not knowing who did it and therefore being unable to report it.

[Geekfreak]

flurry wrote:
Carnage wrote:
People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.


People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Not in any types of stores they can't!

[Geekfreak]

Flurry wrote:
People have been able to walk into stores, grab merchandise, then bolt right out all under surveillance cameras. They've managed to get away or not get caught even with the trained police forces and all the high-tech equipment they have.

Carnage wrote:
People successfully steal in Zalanthas without getting caught too.

Not in any types of stores they can't!

[Geekfreak]

Oops, my bad!