Question for y'all

[Sanvean]

Recently the staff has been discussing making sorcerers, psionicists, and void elementalists special-application only. This is because we've noticed a problem where a few players with those options tend to make the characters of one of those guilds over and over, which means that players who have never run one get turned down when they special app for one.

It seems unfair to let this handful of people keep monopolizing the guilds, particularly when good and interesting apps get sent in, but get denied because players A, B, and C keep making their sorcerer over and over again.

Originally, we had removed those options from ex-staff but still let them special app those characters, since they seemed to be the biggest culprits here, but they have (understandably, I think) raised objections to that strategy.

If we do this, the end effect is opening up the guilds for more people than previously, but I worry about the dampening effect of removing them from the karma tree. What do you think? Is this a fair approach? Is there another approach you'd suggest? Bear in mind that suggesting to people who are running the same restricted guild over and over that they try a different one has not been very successful.

[Pungee]

How about a burn out timer? Set a character counter flag on an account so that if they do a sorcerer and then die, they can't make another sorcerer until they've played another character. While there are ways to abuse it, hopefully you won't have to worry too heavily since they're such a high karma class, and it would also be easy to catch. For example, someone who typically runs 20-50 day characters opens up a ranger or a warrior and dies in the first day every time is obviously just trying to get Sorcerer re-opened for him/her. You could nail them, reduce karma, and then that took care of that problem. This would Ensure that you don't get Sorc-Repeaters or any karma abusers.  

[Werd]

Edit:^^^Damn, beat me by 1 min :evil:, but yeah what he said.

I voted option 3, while I agree that it is unfair if certain people monopolize certain roles, I still think it would be nice to keep them on the karma list. Instead of making them spec app only, deny the people who are hogging that character type the ability to make that character type for awhile. I'd say take away the karma required to play the role they are monopolizing for a few months, and monitor their characters to make sure they don't unrealistically kill them off just because they think the time may be up and want to make another sorcerer or what have you.

But on second thought, the karma required for these roles are so high that this probably won't apply to the majority of players, because as I understand it, it takes quite awhile to accumulate enough karma to play those roles. So change my vote to option 1 if you don't like my suggestion.

[moab]

Speaking as a player with Sorc in his karma tree, I have to say that a burn-out timer as Pungee suggested is a good idea.

After someone's sorcerer dies perhaps make them wait six RL months before being able to submit another.  Same with Void Mage and Psi.

If that isn't acceptible or doable for some reason, removing Sorc and Psi from the karma tree seems reasonable if only to open a dialog between staff and player in regards to the character's personality and background.

One of things that is missing from non-Special Aps is the chance to really develop the character with staff input.

[Callisto]

Just from what I know, most players will never have a hope in hell of gaining a karma tree that high, so this isn't exactly going to have a major effect on people.

I'd say make it special application only and ensure a rotation type of system, so everyone (Barring the twinkishly inclined) has a chance to play some of the more unique roles available.

I'd remove void elemental and replace it will mul in this arrangement, since a mul seems like a far more difficult role then an elemental, but that's just my opinion.

[Dracul]

I wish I could play one....

[samsara]

The people who play them probably tend to play long lived characters, thereby keeping the "desired" number of slots filled. If you've truly got too many people with the karma to play them, it may be time to relook at current karma levels both at the account and class/race level. However if they've earned the right, they should be allowed to play them. Perhaps you should decide on a small number of each of these classes that are always open to special app. And as special apps die, allow another.

[jhunter]

I'm confused, are you saying that if someone special apps one of these classes that they will be turned down because someone else who has the karma to do it on their own is currently playing one?

[samsara]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is exactly it. They only want a certain amount of these races/classes in the game at a time. They are extremely powerful both in terms of individual abilities as well as their potential to change the flavor/balance of the game. In some ways it's like special apping a templar. Even if your story and character design is great, they may not need one at the current time.

[jhunter]

I guess I can understand that, for me making it a special app means I will never play one even though I'd like to...I personally prefer not to special app anything.
I don't care to go through the trouble of it with the chance it will be turned down...rather just make a char with the options I have knowing that I can accomplish that and it get approved without having to ask to be treated specially.

I don't know for certain, but considering things that are special apps I'll bet they get turned down more often than not...-especially- when things other than your playing ability and character design are involved in the decision.

Going through the normal process of creating a char I've never had one turned down, I'd much rather be playing again as soon as I can than waiting around for some special app to get approved which odds are, it won't.

That's just my opinion of it.

[Pantoufle]

Bear in mind that suggesting to people who are running the same restricted guild over and over that they try a different one has not been very successful.

Why not?  If someone on staff said "Look man, you gotta quit making Nilazis over and over.  That shit's getting old real fast!"  I think I'd have to pause and reflect a moment.  Are they just blatantly shrugging their shoulders and making yet another Nilazi/Sorcer/Psi immediately after they lose the previous one or what?  Rather than limiting everyone from the option, why not just take certain people's karma away?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Here's a suggestion.  It's something that I saw on another Mud.

Instead of having Karma levels, we have Karma points.  Every special class and race costs a certain amount of points (perhaps correspending to their level).  When you choose one of those races, you spend those points and you don't get them back until the staff decides to give you more.

[Dracul]

Why not be simply harsh when approving the characters as regular apps? I mean there seems to be no need towards classifying it as special. Just go a little more deny happy when you are approving the sorcerer named Muad Dib rather than the desert elf name dMuad Dib.

[Anonymous]

Here's a suggestion.  It's something that I saw on another Mud.

Instead of having Karma levels, we have Karma points.  Every special class and race costs a certain amount of points (perhaps correspending to their level).  When you choose one of those races, you spend those points and you don't get them back until the staff decides to give you more.

I've seen this done somewhere.  There was also a thread from that same mud trying to find a way to alleviate the burden it put on the staff since it was a continual process.

[Cuusardo]

Why wouldn't the staff reject the applications from people who keep making those same types of characters over and over again to leave spots for the people who special app?

[jhunter]

Actually now...as a player, knowing that there is for certain, an imm controlled limit to the number of these things bums me out because it's OOC information I hadn't known before.

It made it easier for me to have that fear as a player to go along with my pc's fears that someone may be a mindbender/sorceror or whatever...

...now, as a player I will no longer have as much of that fear to go along with my pc's, because I know there can only be a certain amount actually active in the game at one time.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Then perhaps limit it to sorceror, psionicist, and void elementalist.

Those Karma options would be designated as one use only.  For example, if you have void elementalist karma and then play a void elementalist, then you no longer have void elementalist karma.  You have to wait until a staff member decides to give it to you again.  A special application would effectively be an appeal to get this temporary karma.

[John]

I made a long post outlining why they should remain Karma-level, but then I realised what I was really suggesting was a special app process. I still say hand out the Karma but also require people to go through a "quicker app process" when trying to app for their char. The reason you should keep it as a Karma level, is because the only thing stopping me from special apping a Void/Sorc/Psionist is because I think one day I just might be able to get enough Karma for it myself.

Giving out Karma for any role basically says to players "we think your good enough to play this role."

So requiring a quicker special app process for people who have Sorc/Void/Psionist Karma would let you consider if they're playing those type of roles too much (among other criteria), but it also lets the player skip the slower process of normal special apps (which no offense to Naephet, but according to everyone I've spoken to it takes a fair while).

The difference between the current system and a quicker special app process along with Karma levels, is that it gives you a perfectly valid reason to say "nope, been playing that type of role too much", which the informal "maybe you could stop playing those roles for a while" doesn't let you have.

Giving out those Karma levels, gives the player more support to have the role then people who don't have the Karma level, which should make them happier about having to basically special app the role (along with a speeded up special app process), but it doesn't completely gurantee them the role.

Just my 2 'sid

[Callisto]

That'd kind of suck, in much the same way Hitler was kind of a jerk, ERS.

Some of us don't see a lot of karma action as it is, if we lose our karma every time we want to play something other then the standard options, we are going to end up with a desert elf every couple of years, nevermind something higher.

[Anonymous]

I can imagine this is a problem, and I wouldn't mind seeing them become special application only.

Alternatively, perhaps only have those options show up in a player with the requisite karma's skill list if the number of active Sorcs/Psis or Nilazis is under a certain number.

Or, option number three would be to make those options awardable like karma, but have a single use before they are removed from your options.
So, player X is given a Sorc option, he plays and dies, and is not given the option for a while until someone on staff feels that it is deserved again and there isn't a glut of Sorcs.  Ditto for the other guilds.

[Cenghiz]

Sanvean, I hope I'm going fine with newly given karma, not abusing it. (Please notify me whenever I do, I don't want to lose karma, I liked it.) I would say "remove them from the karma tree!" just because I would like to apply for a void elementalist after trying the desert elf and the vivaduan but...
That would be too unfair for the high karma players. Maybe you should just reject their applications with the reason "Play sumtin' else, dude!".
Or give my character +5000 spell resistance and let me go hunt them eh?  :twisted: Then you would quickly accept a few special apps before they can apply for another and tell them that the quota was full, then wander away whistling a merry tune.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That'd kind of suck, in much the same way Hitler was kind of a jerk, ERS.

Notice my amendment.  Just do it for sorceror, nilazi, mindbender.  It wouldn't effect someone like you at all.

[John]

I like ERS's second proposal (Sorc/Psionist/Voids are for one time use only). It cuts down on the need to special app, and if you keep track of when the player last had a (Sorc/Psionist/Void) and hand it out once more based on that (as well as their roleplay) they won't constantly get the karma level again.

[samsara]

After further consideration, it seems most other things that there is a need to limit by number are all special app. Karma takes care of the trust issue. Special app allows you to take a one time pass on the trust question. Templars, nobles, family members, and assorted others are all special apps. If sorcerors/psis/voids need to be limited too, this is the current mechanism to do it. Don't start mutating karma into something it wasn't meant to do unless you revamp it as a whole.

[Sanvean]

I'm confused, are you saying that if someone special apps one of these classes that they will be turned down because someone else who has the karma to do it on their own is currently playing one?

That's it exactly. We try not to have 50+ sorcerers running around at any given time. As far as muls go - those I'm not so concerned about, since I'm comfortable with a substantially larger number of muls in the game than I am, for example, psis.

I don't want to create a system that adds to the overall workload, i.e. requires that staff spend much time tracking who played a void elementalist and how many characters ago it was. Similarly, I'm trying to avoid a system that requires a coder changing the current account system.

I know that the current special app process is slow - so if we did this, we'd need to figure out a way to get a quicker turnaround, in that case. (imo)