Question for y'all

[Anonymous]

In my opinion, just let the karma and application system work. If someone is out of hand and playing 20 sorcerers in a row, drop them an e-mail suggesting a different type of character or whatever. I'd like to see something more personal introduced before a "We have this many people playing this class, sorry" or making certain classes just limitted to special apping. It defeats the purpose of karma.

I was thinking something along the same lines.  Reject applications for Sorcs/Psis and Nilazis for those who keep making them with a note.  It probably ends up being less total work than having every application for one of those three guilds go through the special application process.

I don't think it's something someone should be punished for, per se, since for some people the lure of the possibility of the next Sorc being the sorc is probably pretty tempting.

[Seeker]

In a perfect world, all players will soon earn eight Karma.  If we attract, develop and maintain excellent players there will be more and more players with the option to play the highest Karma rank classes.  And that is a great thing.

Too many Sorcerors at one time, though, is a -bad- thing.  The world-story suffers if there are three hidden Psi's in a tavern of twenty PCs.  Even with just bad timing, that is possible if Karma is the only factor in who gets to choose those classes, and we have a bunch of good players.

If it impractical to refuse standard applications from player's with the necessary Karma to play those classes, or too difficult to limit the appearance of those classes in some semi-automated fashion during chargen, or unsatisfactory to modify the Karma system in some fashion at the top end, then removing them from the Karma tree to preserve the genre is the only remaining option I see.


Seeker



We want excellent players.

[spawnloser]

Reject applications for Sorcs/Psis and Nilazis for those who keep making them with a note.  It probably ends up being less total work than having every application for one of those three guilds go through the special application process.

While I first thought this would work, Sanvean said she would prefer something that did NOT involve the staff having to go research what the person has played recently when working the application queues.

[crymerci]

Originally I had voted to take them off the karma ladder, and I still think that would be the simplest solution, but perhaps it is more of a quick fix since it would increase the special app queue.

Here's an alternative idea I had: continue having Storytellers approve all other apps, but make these highest classes require Highlord+ approval, when they are normally apped by someone with the karma. All special apps (including these classes) would still go through Naephet, but his workload would not be increased by this, except as one of several who can approve these high-karma folks.  Yes, it would increase Highlord+ workload, but it would be spread amongst more people. If it takes two weeks to get your sorc/psi app approved instead of 24 hours, then so be it.

[spawnloser]

I do kinda like that one, crymerci...if you have to wait three days for a normally app'ed sorcerer, maybe you'll app something else instead?

[mansa]

How about a burn out timer? Set a character counter flag on an account so that if they do a sorcerer and then die, they can't make another sorcerer until they've played another character. While there are ways to abuse it, hopefully you won't have to worry too heavily since they're such a high karma class, and it would also be easy to catch. For example, someone who typically runs 20-50 day characters opens up a ranger or a warrior and dies in the first day every time is obviously just trying to get Sorcerer re-opened for him/her. You could nail them, reduce karma, and then that took care of that problem. This would Ensure that you don't get Sorc-Repeaters or any karma abusers.  8)

Wow.  The first reply, and I agree with it.  I skimmed over all the other responses and I didn't bother to read most of it, since I agreed with the very first response.  A timer.

Play a level 8 karma guild, and wait 365 days until you can play another.
Play a level 7 karma guild, and wait 182 days until you can play another.
Play a level 6 karma guild, and wait 91 days until you can play another.
Play a level 5 karma guild, and wait 45 days until you can play another.
Play a level 4 karma guild, and wait 22 days until you can play another.
Play a level 3 karma guild, and wait 11 days until you can play another.

This 'timer' should be visible on the player's account, perhaps in parentheses or something, beside the guild option.

[Travel Cake]

I like Crymerci's idea.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Here's an alternative idea I had: continue having Storytellers approve all other apps, but make these highest classes require Highlord+ approval, when they are normally apped by someone with the karma. All special apps (including these classes) would still go through Naephet, but his workload would not be increased by this, except as one of several who can approve these high-karma folks. Yes, it would increase Highlord+ workload, but it would be spread amongst more people. If it takes two weeks to get your sorc/psi app approved instead of 24 hours, then so be it.

Great idea.  Lets just punish everybody that such a change would effect instead of limiting it to those who are responsible.  The trouble is, there are some of us, such as Quirk and myself who temper ourselves to actually waiting until we have a good concept for such a character instead of just selecting the most powerful of our options each and every time.
I've never played a void elementalist, sorceror, or psionicist, but I've had the option for at least one of the above for quite some time.  I don't want to have to lose something that is mine by privilege just because of irresponsible actions taken by people that I've never met.

The above idea is a bad one because it deals with the problem arbitrarily instead of responsibly.

Originally I had voted to take them off the karma ladder, and I still think that would be the simplest solution, but perhaps it is more of a quick fix since it would increase the special app queue.

As is this.

Reject applications for Sorcs/Psis and Nilazis for those who keep making them with a note. It probably ends up being less total work than having every application for one of those three guilds go through the special application process.

This is one of the few responsible solutions.

Because of this.

Is it abusive to only play humans?
Is it abusive to only play dwarves?
Is it abusive to only play desert elves?
It is abusive to only play rukkians?
Is it abusive to only play Sorcerers?

No it isn't abusive to only play only one of something.  Yet, for certain roles it appears a mechanism has become necessary to nudge along those (and only those) who won't play anything else.

It is however abusive to blatantly disregard advice from a staff member.

[Pungee]

Remind me again how it's abusive to prefer playing Humans to Elves?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Remind me again how it's abusive to prefer playing Humans to Elves?

What post are you referring to?  I don't see anything like that.

[crymerci]

Frankly, I don't think it's punitive, even to those who are not hogging the roles. Why shouldn't the highest karma classes require a little extra thought before approval? I think these apps should be closely looked at, even if you have the karma. We're not talking about however long a regular special app takes.  I put the two weeks out there as sort of an outside idea for how long it might take.  I figure a Highlord+ can probably find the time on a Saturday to research what they need to. And in case they need to consult, or look some more stuff up, or ponder, it might take as much as another week.

But then again, I'm not staff, and I don't know how long it would take.

Still, you have to go through a in involved and sometimes lengthy app process to play nobles, templars, merchant family, and other "special" roles not covered by the karma system.  Why not the same for psi/sorc? If you can't wait a week or two, you're probably not well suited to these classes anyway, because they require patience.

[Krath]

I agree with Cymerci's Idea. However, I do believe that if that staff sends you an email saying you should stop playing a certain type of character because you are playing it too much and you do not listen, take your fucking karma away. That is what I would do, shit. As far as Nilazis go, I dont think their should be a cap on them, just the Psions and Sorcs.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Frankly, I don't think it's punitive, even to those who are not hogging the roles.

It's clearly punitive, no matter what the intention is.  It's not exactly a boon to anybody, is it?

Why shouldn't the highest karma classes require a little extra thought before approval?

To your question, a question.  Why should they require extra thought before approval?  It wouldn't necessarily be a little extra thought either.  You'd apparently be fine with the process taking an extra two weeks (how long it would take in practice, I have no idea).  That's not acceptable to me.

I think these apps should be closely looked at, even if you have the karma.

What need is there for this that isn't already covered in the normal process of application?

You're offering a solution to a problem that you've percieved in your imagination.  What we need is a way to control players who are out of control in their selection of certain roles.  What we don't need is a way to put EVERY sorceror application under extra scrutiny.  So your belief that these applications need to be put under extra scrutiny is as it happens, irrelevent.  That would be a fine proposition if we were faced with, for example, players that were walking into the Trader's and fireballing everybody they could before the crime code sent them into oblivion, but thats not the case.  Isn't it a bit presumptuous to offer a solution where no problem exists?

We're not talking about however long a regular special app takes.  I put the two weeks out there as sort of an outside idea for how long it might take.  I figure a Highlord+ can probably find the time on a Saturday to research what they need to. And in case they need to consult, or look some more stuff up, or ponder, it might take as much as another week.

But then again, I'm not staff, and I don't know how long it would take.

Oh, okay!  You figure that a Highlord can probably find the time on a Saturday to take on this extra load of work.  The problem with that is that you aren't a Highlord.  I think that the staff has made it clear that the solution we need is one that involves minimal effort on that part.

Read the last part of that quote, because its the wisest portion of your post.

Still, you have to go through a in involved and sometimes lengthy app process to play nobles, templars, merchant family, and other "special" roles not covered by the karma system.  Why not the same for psi/sorc? If you can't wait a week or two, you're probably not well suited to these classes anyway, because they require patience.

Once more I find myself inclined to reveal personal experience.  I applied for a templar, got accepted the next day, and began playing the day after that.  Which I'm fine with.  If I had to wait two weeks, then I would have been upset and irritated.  The staff's time is valuable yes, but mine is too.

I am not a patient person.  I enjoy doing things, not waiting to do them.  Despite that, my clan immortals reported that my play was exceptional and I would be welcome back in the future.  Fancy that.

[crymerci]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  Look how easy that was, and I didn't have to even be a jerk about it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

How about simply designating two caps, one a total cap, and one a karma-app cap?

For example, let's say we cap the total number of sorcerors at 3, and the number of karma-application sorcerors at 2.  That leaves 1 slot always available for special app'ed sorcerors, but doesn't restrict it to 1 if there should happen to be more slots available.

[Zacharai]

How about simply designating two caps, one a total cap, and one a karma-app cap?

Nope, because someone will have a sorcerer 'active', but never play, and thus edge out someone else who has both a great idea and an excellent background from getting the position.  As far as the timer goes, it's kinda stupid.  There's not that many players who are knowledgable and skilled enough to play a sorcerer.  Thin them out too much and you have the opposite problem.

In short, I completely agree with the idea that those three classes should be special app.  A caveat: virtually anyone with the karma to get those positions should be trusted enough to choose them on their own -- that kind of karma means the staff has faith in your decisions.  On the other hand, to regulate these -very- powerful classes, the staff has the right to approve.

The last special app character I applied for was approved by both Brix and San in mere hours.  I was down by one karma point, and one imm at least had been amused by a previous character, so no problems.  I get the sense that many players are scared of special apps - they'd just like to get in the game playing.  For high-karma positions like these, the staff SHOULD look it over.  If you're a high-karma person, very reliable, IC all the time, a driving force in Zalanthas, you'll have no problems.  If you have trouble keeping characters alive for more than a few days, no way in hell should you take one of these classes.  Of course, you won't, but that's beside the point.

I have no problem letting the staff regulate these positions.  If the same reliable person keeps sticking to one clan, as a warrior that's no big deal.  As a sorcerer, or psi, or nilazian, that is.  Diversification is a good thing, even if I don't practice it much myself.

--Zach

P.S.  Interesting quote:

I do kinda like that one, crymerci...if you have to wait three days for a normally app'ed sorcerer, maybe you'll app something else instead?

If you get upset waiting a week for a response about one of these classes, you're obviously not cut out for the responsibility and patience required.  These are characters that should live for 50+ days, do important things, and perhaps be leaders to the few who know their capabilities.  Any long-lived character has significant amounts of downtime, and I believe that any good nilazian, psi, or sorc should be long-lived.  If you can't handle the wait, you can't handle the downtime, and thus it all works out in the end.

[jhunter]

spawnloser wrote:
I do kinda like that one, crymerci...if you have to wait three days for a normally app'ed sorcerer, maybe you'll app something else instead?

If you get upset waiting a week for a response about one of these classes, you're obviously not cut out for the responsibility and patience required. These are characters that should live for 50+ days, do important things, and perhaps be leaders to the few who know their capabilities. Any long-lived character has significant amounts of downtime, and I believe that any good nilazian, psi, or sorc should be long-lived. If you can't handle the wait, you can't handle the downtime, and thus it all works out in the end.

I think the point is...we're all here to -play- the game.

Personally I wouldn't app for any character if I had to wait that long for it either, because of the simple fact...that I want to be playing the game.

There are some people who would rather earn the right to play those things if they choose..than ask to be given special treatment by special apps to play them.

[Anonymous]

There are some people who would rather earn the right to play those things if they choose..than ask to be given special treatment by special apps to play them.

I view nobles and templars as special application positions. One of the big differences is they're special application only. I have never seen myself as asking for special treatment instead of earning the right to play those roles when I send in an application to play a noble or templar.

People will eventually stop seeing special applications for Nilazi, Psionists and Sorcerers as asking for special treatment instead of earning the right to play them.

[Angela Christine]

I don't know, none of the options seem much better than the others.  I guess if someone is playing too many of something, and they've been asked to mix it up a little, then a note should go on the account saying they've been asked to stop playing nilazi after nilazi.  Then if they keep doing it, remove the class they are obsessed with from their options for a while.  In the end that seems like the least effort and most fair option, because it will effect the people with the problem behavior, but not everyone else.  On the other hand, these are long-term players that generally do a good job, so you don't want to drive them away.  I've never had karma removed, but I imagine it would be an unpleasant experience.

You could turn the "fantasy" dial a couple notches closer to "high," then an excess of these kinds of characters wouldn't be a huge problem.  The Sorcerers wouldn't only have to worry about city-sponsered lynch mobs, they'd also have to worry about the machinations of rival small-time sorcerers.

In most World of Darkness MUSHes I've checked out it seems like half the PCs are "special" in one way or another.  Not just the "supers" like Vampires, werewolves, risen, wraiths, mages, fey, etc., but also what they call mortal+ characters, people who are basically normal, except that they can see dead people, or their cousin is a werewolf, or they have some minor psychic ability.  These characters should make up a tiny part of the population.  In a city with 2 million people you would expect no more than 20 vampires, but in a typical MUSH all 20 of those vampires will be PCs, and there are not going to be 2 million "normal" mortal PCs balancing them out.  There might be 100-200 mortal PCs, especially if the game allows mulit-playing, but many of them will have taken supernatural merits and flaws to make themselves special.  There may be more vampires than genuine vanilla human PCs who honestly don't know that monsters are real.

I'm not suggesting that Armageddon move that far, because after a while it gets silly.  But allowing a few more supernatural characters to exist might be the easiest answer.  If someone puts in a good, well planed app for a sorcerer, go ahead and let 'em play it even if there are already 10 active sorcerers.  The more sorcerers there are active, then the more likely that some of them will screw up, and so the more vigilant the anti-sorcerer forces will become.  it is a self-adjusting system.

What is the worst that could happen?  Everyone creates sorcerers, and then this becomes a Magick the Gathering mud.  :twisted:

If you have trouble keeping characters alive for more than a few days, no way in hell should you take one of these classes.  

Just out of curiosity, why not?  Do these characters start out monsterously powerful?  I don't have that kind of Karma, but I doubt it.  If a Psionicist gets approved and dies a week later, so what?  They aren't hogging a slot for long, so it isn't like a flash in the pan charcter prevents other, longer-lived characters from being played.  Ok, a sorcerer might leave some disturbing traces of ash around before they kick the bucket, but they aren't going to seriously disrupt the story line.  

Sure, it would be nice if they lived a long time and did important stuff, but you can say that about any character.  I don't see any intrinsic reason why a Nilazi should live longer than a Burglar or Ranger.  The docs make it seem like a Sorcerer or Psi can be detected by the High Templars and God-Kings inside the cities, even when they aren't doing anything particularily significant.  To me, that says that if I was going to play a Psi or Sorc, then I shouldn't base them out of a major city, or my character may be "discovered" and revealed by powerful NPCs or VNPCs.  Basing yourself out of a small town isn't any better, in most of the small settlements there is no "safe" place to cast.  You can get yourself a Secret hideout, that seems the most logical thing to do even if you occasionally risk visits to a village or city to get supplies, but wilderness hideouts are innately dangerous to any newbie.  If you are in a known wilderness quit room you could have company litterally materialize without warning.  Travelling to and from the hideout is dangerous too: one scrab or gortok can kill an unarmored newbie ranger  or warrior in a couple hits, and likely can take out a non-combat class even faster.  Sure, eventually that won't be an issue, but most characters die in the newbie phase with less that 5 or 10 days played.  

I have no idea how people play this classes if they ever use any of their coded abilities.  And if they aren't using those abilities there is no reason for them to have chosen a high Karma class in the first place, instead they could just play deranged burglars who think they are or want to be sorcerers.  It is flat out illegal and/or an abomination to be a Sorcerer or Psionicist in virtually every culture in the known world.  (I'm not sure about Nilazi, it isn't clear if they are tollerated in Allanak or not.)  Some of the small towns have a don't ask/don't tell policy, and as long as you don't flaunt your abilities inside the village they'll leave you alone, but I think if defiler ash started showing up a few miles away from the village even the laid back places would organize a lynch mob.  Living in the wilderness is a virtual death sentance for any newbie, regardless of class.  I'm surprised that -any- of them ever live long enough to be a threat to anyone.  Keeping one alive seems like a nearly impossible challenge, keeping one alive and integrated into a society would be mind-bogglingly difficult.

I figure the first time I try a new guild, race, or location it is a test drive.  I take the character out for a spin and see what they can do.  Until I know what skills the character starts with, it is very difficult to form a life plan.  I once wanted to try a spear hunter rather than a bow hunter, so I picked a guild I thought started with throw, and I was right.  Unfortunately that guild did -not- get skinning, and I was very surprised because I hadn't been playing long and I sort of expected that they would.  Due to my subguild I could tan hides and work the leather, but without the skinning skill I hardly ever managed to get any hides.  The concept was unplayable as I had envisioned it, because the guild/subguild combination I chose didn't get one lousy skill.  It is easier to get "listen" than it is to get "skin."  My point is that when someone is planning a character in a guild they haven't played before, they may guess incorrectly about what that character will plausibly be able to do to make a living, and that mistake can easily lead to an untimely death.  "Oops, my newbie psi can't do X after all, so I guess I'll have to fall back on gathering salt to earn a few coins.  Oh look, a scrab.  Arrrgh!  Gurgle . . . Ack!  Ouch!"

Ahem.


AC

[Boggis]

I think the simplest option is for the Staff to have a quick extra look at apps for sorcerers, etc. when they come in from players with the karma points for these roles. I would guess that its a fairly simple procedure to look over the history of what roles they have been playing before and if the person is playing too many of the same high-end role simply refuse the app, tell them to try something else for a while and give others a chance. I know somebody said that Sanvean didn't want to have to look back over previous roles but how many people have that high level of karma really? I wouldn't think it would be a heavy burden.

I don't think a timer would be much fun for anybody as accidents can easily happen, especially the first time you play any character. Suddenly losing the chance to play the role for a while would be a bit of a kick in the teeth, especially seeing as you've earned the right to play such a role by earning all that karma.

So, when sorcerer / psi / nilazi apps from high karma players are being examined just have a quick peek over what they've played before and factor that into the decision on whether they get approved or rejected. We're not talking indepth checks here - just a 30 second look over what they've been playing the past few roles. I think such players have earned the rights to play such roles, just not excessively so that other players can't get their foot in the door. Also, this means they're not being punished which is generally an unpleasant thing for the Staff to have to do I'm sure - just they're told that particular door is shut for a while to them. If this reduces the amount of high karma apps coming in then this would leave more room for special apps from players who don't have the karma for the roles but have an interesting idea nevertheless.

[Twilight]

I am a big fan of having some restraint when playing the karma classes.  I love magickers, and would be happy to exclusively play them.  In fact, I would prefer it.  But I make myself play at least one mundane character between magickers.  I have access to one of the guilds in question.  I have played three characters from that guild in the last three years or so, and had quite a few characters over that time.  I look forward to someday hopefully seeing the last two class options show up on my list.  I feel I have been fairly responsible in not only playing the characters I play, in the game, but also in choosing which guilds/races to play, and I will continue to be.

I have this feeling that the problem is not me (gosh I hope!), or the system.

we've noticed a problem where a few players

Sanvean has said it herself.  The problem is a few players.  The solution should target those few players.  If you have asked them not to play those select guilds so often, and they have not complied, personally I don't feel they are not living up to the responsibility of high karma, as part of this is an OOC level of responsibility.  I feel somewhat strongly about this, as someone who doesn't always play that next character as the guild they really, really want to even though they can, because I feel people should abide by the spirit behind the karma system (to reduce numbers of certain guilds/races) if they have a significant amount of it.  Just choosing high karma guilds over and over, or for that matter any karma guild over and over, just doesn't show a lot of support for the system.

[Quirk]

People will eventually stop seeing special applications for Nilazi, Psionists and Sorcerers as asking for special treatment instead of earning the right to play them.

And this would be a bad thing, just as it would be if we took away karma altogether and replaced it with special apps.

Those who clamour the loudest for the roles are not always those who will play the roles the best. Frequently the opposite is the case.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

If you get upset waiting a week for a response about one of these classes, you're obviously not cut out for the responsibility and patience required.  These are characters that should live for 50+ days, do important things, and perhaps be leaders to the few who know their capabilities.  Any long-lived character has significant amounts of downtime, and I believe that any good nilazian, psi, or sorc should be long-lived.  If you can't handle the wait, you can't handle the downtime, and thus it all works out in the end.

Why should any one character last longer than another?  Anyone could be unlucky and get eaten by something stupid a few hours out.  I know of one sorcerer character that didn't do much other than get a job and live a relatively normal life...still pursuing his sorcery, but otherwise normal, run of the mill dude.  Why does one class or karma option make the character any more important?  I wonder this.

Now...after further debate and discussion...the options put up that have been discussed and my thoughts on them.

Timer: Low maintenance, still allows people that have earned the trust to play them.  Maybe Mansa's timetable could be reworked...I don't see any issue with someone that only plays d.elves.  Some people just are good at it and like it.  Good for them.  Let them do it.  Other karma-required races?  Half-giant I don't see much of a problem with...I would keep a timer on mul.  The lower echelons of magicker?  I don't have a problem with.  I'd say anything 5+ karma could use a timer.  Anything under isn't a big deal and people could still be getting used to the magick system and want to learn.  By the time anyone has gotten to 5+ karma, if they're playing magickers, they should know how the system works.

Special app process, in its varied forms: The Highlord+ system, after some thought, I don't like.  Just doing it as a normal special app, I don't like.  Both require too much work for the staff.

Karma loss: I don't like the karma points system, as that would require a lot of maintaining on the staff's part.  However, I do like the idea of  checking what people have played in the past and if all they play are nilazis, tell them to cut it out and put a note on the account that they were told to not keep playing the same shit...and if they don't cut it out, they are obviously not trustworthy and responsible enough to have the karma.  Strip it and put a note on the account that this happened and why.

Which do I like the most?  Asking them to stop, and if they don't, stop them with karma loss.  Simplest and easiest and as AC said, target only the people doing this.

[Carnage]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1472

I want something like I suggested. Let me know that there's a lot of Nilazi in the game so I don't end up being the two hundreth.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Karma loss: I don't like the karma points system, as that would require a lot of maintaining on the staff's part.  However, I do like the idea of  checking what people have played in the past and if all they play are nilazis, tell them to cut it out and put a note on the account that they were told to not keep playing the same shit...and if they don't cut it out, they are obviously not trustworthy and responsible enough to have the karma.  Strip it and put a note on the account that this happened and why.

Yes, yes.  Nobody likes that solution, myself included.  Can we forget I mentioned it now?

But I still wonder what you think about having sorceror/psionicist/nilazi karma automatically removed after the option is used, making the players that have previously gained such karma levels have to wait a while until the staff remembers them and gives them their karma back.