Sdesc vs. Main desc

[Bestatte]

I've seen (and typoed) around half a dozen of these in the past several months. I'm sure there are others that I just didn't notice or who show up in other towns, since I know I can't be the only one whose run into these types.

The tall skinny elf

assess -v elf
he is shorter than you
he weighs more than you



l elf
This elf has dark green hair and blue eyes. He has an angular face. He has a crooked nose and thick red lips.

Issue with that: Nowhere in his main desc does he mention that he's tall or  skinny, and in fact the only thing we know about him is that he possesses a head. Hopefully somewhere over his neck but given mutations of races in the world, you can't be too sure.

Issue with the issue: If this elf was wearing a hood or face covering, we would be reporting to our templar that the "short fat" elf was trying to kill the noble. The templar would be looking for the short fat elf. His sdesc is that he's tall skinny. I consider this not just bad, but wrong. A "wrong" thing to do.

These are already written in the docs, but perhaps it's time to rehash them:

1) If you are going to mention something in your sdesc, make SURE it appears in your main desc.
2) Be sure that the description will be appropriate to an assess -v. If your character is extremely tall, then please - make sure you code him that way when you pick out his height.
3) (a peeve, I don't think it's in the docs) - don't describe JUST your face. If you've got a face wrap on, most people are gonna RP that they don't see your face, except perhaps your eyes, brow, and hair. Your character (hopefully) has a body. Please try to mention it in your main description, even if it's only to say "His lanky body bears no distinguishable features".

[wizturbo]

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

I think as long as your sdesc reflects your desc it's fine.   Tall, short, massive, muscular, all of those are relative terms.  To a HG everyone's going to be tiny.  To an elf, everyone's going to be short.

So long as your sdesc has terms describing things in your desc and your desc includes your race, I'm happy.  If your sdesc has the term 'rugged' in in and your desc describes you as rugged without using the term, I don't see the problem.  People use sdesc terms like a fingerprint anyways and anything which causes people to look at the desc and study the person and to not tell me to 'go find that one honey-haired woman' is a good thing.

Besides, any Templar told to be on the lookout for a short, fat elf should kill the militiamember who told him that.  Out of the probably near 100k elves to be found in each city that's not much to go on.

[Bestatte]

I guess that wasn't a good example, CRW. I'll try again. I wanted to be vague because I don't want to embarrass anyone by using actual descs.

In the situation of an elf, all elves are tall compared to humans and dwarves. But with other elves, elves come in a variety of sizes, some tall, some short, etc..they all look different to each other. So when someone has an sdesc of a "tall" elf, you kinda have to assume he's even taller than an "average" sized elf is, no matter what size that happens to be or who's looking at him. To a dwarf, a "tall" elf would be like - ridiculously tall. To another elf of "average" elven height, the "tall" elf would just be tall, nothing special. To a human of average or even tall height, a "tall" elf would be extremely tall. To a half-giant, a "tall" elf might be only slightly shorter than he is, as opposed to an "average" sized elf, who might be shorter, but more than slightly...

So it's all relevant as you said, and it's that relevancy that is the concern to me.

If your character is a tall elf, then your stats need to support it. Assess -v should show, to whatever race is assessing him, that your elf is, in fact, tall *for an elf.* If my slightly taller-than-average human comes across someone whose description states that he is a tall elf, and assess -v shows that he's shorter than I am, which is correct? Is he a "tall elf" or is he actually a "short elf?'  

Do I go by the sdesc, or do I go by assess -v? RPwise, to me, assess -v is my character's way of sizing up someone. But then how can I describe this guy to a friend, an employer, a templar, by mentioning that he's short, if his sdesc is tall? Do I go OOC and tell the person "his assess -v says he's short but his sdesc says he's tall. I'm giving you the assess -v description, so you know what you're looking for."

Or do I tell the person, "well, he's kinda tall, but he's short too." or do I tell him one or the other and hope he magickally knows which of the two conflicting bits of information I'm referring to?

Regarding sdescs not matching main descs: The docs clearly state that your sdesc MUST correspond to your main desc. If your character is "the green-haired blocky human" then in your main description you need to refer, somehow, to the greenness of your hair. Call it verdant, call it grass-hued, call it blue-green, call it leaf-colored, but make sure that the main description supports the notion that your hair is, in fact, some manner of green.

Then there's the descs I've seen that are so conflicting I just assume it's a newbie and hope they die soon so I never have to mention to anyone I ever saw them in the first place. An example (made up, doesn't exist):

This short woman has long legs, a long torso, and a long neck. Her tall countenence is offset by her short stature. She has brown eyes, their gaze a murky blue. She is extremely thin and bony, but her skinnyness is hidden by layers of fat.

I have actually seen something like this. Not exactly, but the general idea, of descriptions that completely conflict with each other and make absolutely no sense at all. You look at someone like that and think, HUH?

Don't be that person.

[Ayashah]

Keep in mind is that your short description should contain the most significant features of your character's appearance.....

As the main description, the short description should be valid for your character in any position, whether he/she is standing, sitting, asleep or knocked out.....

Thats the actual quote off the Homepage. So it doesnt say MUST but should contain significant features.

On another note, the issue on eyes is dealt with in that same quote. Basically, if you cant note it when someone is standing, sitting, asleep or knocked out, dont note it. BUT it says the same thing for a main description too. I dont get bent out of shape if someone uses eyes in their short or not, I dont because no one knows my eye color from a distance or if I am sleeping. I do put it in my main description. On a rare occasion, I will use eye color in my short just to throw off people that know me from figuring out I play that pc.  

[Kalden]

Besides, any Templar told to be on the lookout for a short, fat elf should kill the militiamember who told him that. Out of the probably near 100k elves to be found in each city that's not much to go on.

Funny. Maybe he should kill all the NPC militia? Every single one of them just goes off the rote sdesc, and that's it. Damn annoying, yeah, but that's the way it is, and I don't have stupid double standards for PCs vrs NPCs.

As far as the actual issue brought up, it's no big deal. No big deal at all. Likely it's one of the throngs of newbies that we've been getting lately, and he'll figure it out soon enough. I don't think he made himself shorter on purpose. I just don't see what the big problem is.

[Ayashah]

Funny. Maybe he should kill all the NPC militia? Every single one of them just goes off the rote sdesc, and that's it. Damn annoying, yeah, but that's the way it is, and I don't have stupid double standards for PCs vrs NPCs.

Codewise, as in OOC knowledge, yes, the npcs go of short but IC perhaps that guard that walked by and saw the citizen being stabbed/robbed, got a good look at gear, features, etc and had the templars swamp all the milita with that quick run down on who to look for.


**Editted because though I have heard it mentioned tons of times in public, IC over the six years I have played on the mud, some are concerned it is a secret society and I am ruining people's fun in discovering it for themselves. I deeply apologize to anyone I offended since it provoked two rather extensive PMs to me, neither from imms**

[mansa]

I think it's a big deal.  How can you explain to someone about a murderer who goes about hooded, when the murder's KEYWORDS AND SDESC is not mentioned in their MAIN DESCRIPTION

The murder just has to go about, hooded, killing people, then walk out of the room, then walk back in, unhooded, and nobody would know they were the same.  The tall and thin figure in a hooded cloak just became the short fat elf.

[flurry]

Well, anyone who looked at him would know.   That's true whether or not the sdesc is obviously connected to the main description.

[mansa]

Well, anyone who looked at him would know.   That's true whether or not the sdesc is obviously connected to the main description.

I've done it.  I know.  You can get away with it, with a quick change of your cloak and shoes.   Run in there, kill someone (or at least poison them with your dagger) run out, press your macro that removes certain clothes, and puts on new ones, and run back in there, and go, 'hey guys!  what's up?'

[Bestatte]

This is a game. I am new to the game. I want to beat that mean ole noble's aid in Tuluk because she badmouthed my first PC. Oh I know! Here's what I'll do:

Chargen: What is your character's height?

think *snicker* I'll show them!

6'9"

What is your character's weight?
140 pounds

think Bwahahahaha!

What is your character's sdesc:
The short, fat man

think They'll never figure it out!! I AM TEH GODZorZ!

What is your character's main desc:

He has this face with eyes nose mouth hair.

think Body omitted intentionally, they'll never find me never never never!!!

BLAMMO - You you show up in the Sanctuary.
wear cloak; raise hood

tell aid (really loudly so the whole room will know) u are teh suxorz i gonna kil u ded wach ur bak bich

*The tall thin figure in the hooded cloak tells the aide, blah blah blah.*

leave
w;w;w;w;w rem cloak;put cloak pack;e;e;e;e;e
enter building
emote does something really eloquent using perfect spelling and grammar and punctuation.

*The short fat man enters the building*

say (politely, his tone soft and gentle) Something really eloquent using perfect spelling, grammar, and punctuarion.

think THEY WON"T EVAR CATCH ME BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

You don't think that's a problem? I am SO gonna do that next time around then.

[Ayashah]

And that my dear Holmes, is an example of a twink.

*puts a pipe between her lips and puffs contentedly*

[Bestatte]

Ah, then you -do- acknowledge that making your stats -not- match up to your main desc and sdesc is a twinkish thing to do.

I was more annoyed on general principal rather than thinking it was the actions of a twink, but I agree - it IS twinkish.

[Larrath]

How can you expect sdesc and mdesc to match stats?

Stats are rolled after character approval, and people will probably not be allowed to suddenly change from flabby to muscular, or the other way around.

About height and weight, though, seconded.

Umm...okay, this is not a useless post, this is not a useless post, this is not a useless post.

[Bestatte]

Sorry that's what I meant. To me, stats are numeric expressions (with full recognition that the game calls what I consider to be attributes - agility and the like - stats as well). Stats means Statistics. Your height and weight are expressed numerically and determine what people will see when they assess -v your character. That makes them stats. Not the ONLY stats..but stats nonetheless.

[Ayashah]

Ah, then you -do- acknowledge that making your stats -not- match up to your main desc and sdesc is a twinkish thing to do.

I was more annoyed on general principal rather than thinking it was the actions of a twink, but I agree - it IS twinkish.

I never said I didnt agree that grossly misstating your stats on the purpose to deceive wasnt twinkish. But everyone writes their description based on relation to their race.  

[Bestatte]

Right. So in relation to the elven race, the "tall" elf would be a tall elf. Not an average sized elf, but one that stands out as being taller than average. And yet if he creates his character with a height that does not fit what a "tall elf" would be, as far as other elves are concerned, those other elves will see him as being short. And that is wrong and inappropriate and twinkish and not good and all that.

[Ayashah]

That also depends. What might pass for a tall elf in one tribe could be a short elf in another. Just like some humans are taller than others. Lets bring out the 13th Warrior. Antonio played the one guy and wasnt 'short' in his lands but in with the vikings, he was VERY short.

I, myself, was deemed tall when in high school but now anyone my height is considered average.  

So, if I made a character, I might consider someone 5'9" *tall* whereas a viking might consider that short. But I know what you are saying and I agree, elves are known to be taller than average sized human and on the lanky/thin side. So if someone makes a : the tall, thin elf but then hoods around an taller than average human and shows up as :the short, rotund hooded figure, I would say they were abusing code for their own advantage.

[Err...]

Ayashah. Is that name you mentioned in the docs anywhere? I believe it isn't and is highly IC. You will probably want to change it. I'm talking about one of your posts involving the militia and criminals on the first page.

You may have found out ICly, but if it isn't in the public docs, this is one thing that shouldn't ever be mentioned on the GDB.

[grog]

Ayashah. Is that name you mentioned in the docs anywhere? I believe it isn't and is highly IC. You will probably want to change it. I'm talking about one of your posts involving the militia and criminals on the first page.

You may have found out ICly, but if it isn't in the public docs, this is one thing that shouldn't ever be mentioned on the GDB.

And if you hadn't drawn attention to it, most of us would have thought she made it up.

[marilla]

*confusion*

I am thinking this must be a joke...or I am missing something. The only names Ayashah has mentioned were 'Holmes', presumably Sherlock Holmes and Antonio Banderas, the lead character in the film '13th Warrior'.

Neither is IC as neither is involved in the MUD. (If they are, don't tell me. That would be IC.)

[Agent_137]

*confusion*

I am thinking this must be a joke...

If "guest" is trying to make a joke, he sucks at it.

Notice the total lack of any hint that he is being sarcastic. Even the "Errr..." leads me to believe he's being serious.

Of course, no IC name was mentioned in this thread. So...whatever.

[flurry]

I've done it.  I know.  You can get away with it, with a quick change of your cloak and shoes.   Run in there, kill someone (or at least poison them with your dagger) run out, press your macro that removes certain clothes, and puts on new ones, and run back in there, and go, 'hey guys!  what's up?'

Would that have been prevented if your keywords had been in your main description?   Maybe in your particular case, but normally I don't think it would make a difference either way.   If no one looked at you in your hood, it would be a moot point.   And if someone did look at you in your hood, they could identify you by your main description.

Of course I think your sdesc should be consistent with your main description, and any features worth mentioning in the sdesc should be described in the main description.   I just don't see why the specific keywords from your sdesc should necessarily appear in your main description.   And I don't really see it giving any advantage one way or the other.   But just in terms of style, I don't think people should feel any obligation to include those specific sdesc words in their main description.

[Agent_137]

I've done it.  I know.  You can get away with it, with a quick change of your cloak and shoes.   Run in there, kill someone (or at least poison them with your dagger) run out, press your macro that removes certain clothes, and puts on new ones, and run back in there, and go, 'hey guys!  what's up?'

I think this is great! I wouldn't call it twinkish at all, haven't you seen those movies where the guy is disguised and then BAM rips off the old clothes and has a different set underneath? And I don't mean superman and the phone booth. I'm talking Time and Tide style.

Granted, movies aren't the BEST examples to draw from...but this IS a game, damnit.

On a side note (er, the main note) your sdesc MUST reflect your maindesc. Doesn't have to be identical, doesn't have to have the same keywords, but if it doesn't reflect it, your character doesn't make any sense and you should go home and strangle yourself with your cat5e cable.

[jhunter]

I agree, that and like was said earlier...the height and weight by race stats should reflect the description of the character...to intentionally make it so that they do not, is IMO, pretty damned twinky.