Magicker water sellers.

[Guest]

Do you think the commoners of Allanak would buy water from a water cleric?  I can see it both ways.

I could see that they wouldn't because of their fear of magick.  They are untrusting of people with magickal abilities and why would you buy something as important as your water from somebody you didn't trust?

On the other hand, water is probabily the most important resource in the known world.  Poor commoners will be willing to do whatever they need to to get a good price on water, even dealing with magickers.  This view might be supported by the docs a little too:

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

(http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#water)

Anyway, I'd like to hear what you all think.

[Bestatte]

In -most- cases if I was playing in the south, and didn't work for a house that had regular access to "natural" sources of water...

I would not consider asking a Vivaduan to fill up my waterskin for a fee to be out of line. Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city. I would be wary of meeting up with one in a dark alley, but if I was dying of thirst in that dark alley I'd likely give that vivaduan my last sid for water.

In the north, a vivaduan is no less evil than a defiler and would be treated as such if found out.

[Carnage]

Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city.

No, that's a stereotype PCs have brought up. Not every single Vivaduan, NPC and VNPC, is someone who's good-natured and healing.

[Bestatte]

Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city.

No, that's a stereotype PCs have brought up. Not every single Vivaduan, NPC and VNPC, is someone who's good-natured and healing.

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

(from the official docs)

They can earn an "easy living" by selling the water they conjure. They can sell their magicks for a good profit, "perhaps more than any other mage" and "in almost any situation."

I didn't say that every vivaduan PC, NPC, and VNPC is someone who's good-natured and healing, and so yes, I agree with you. That doesn't negate the fact that "out of all the elementalist, vivaduans are considered the healers." Their primary -public- function is to heal people. Whether they choose to do so or not is up to them. But the person who started the question asked if vivaduans would be able to find customers who'd buy water from them. According to the official docs, they should have no problem finding customers.  If they are unable to, then perhaps THAT is the inaccurate stereotype created by players, and not the other way around.

[a dull black gem]

Let's not get off topic here.  I don't know about vivaduans being healers of the city, but the web page seems to make it pretty clear as far as water sales. It says, "usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells.  Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation."  For that to be true it stands to reason that a lot of people must be buying water from water elementalists.  So unless every water elementalist making an easy living selling his water is selling his water only to large organizations, it seems to be logical that commoners would be buying water from water elementalists.
Of course, perhaps the webpage and help files are out of date to a new IG perception and relationship between commoners and water elementalists?

[Angela Christine]

"Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any
mage, however, only large organisations generally will
consider hiring a water elementalist. "


When you look through the elementalist helpfiles you see words like "unease" and "distrust" but not unreasoning terror or utter revulsion.  I think folks would buy water, and other goods, from a mage.  Something is making the NPC mages enough money that they all have clothes and food, right?  I think the key would be to not cast spells right in front of the customer, but since mages can't cast outside the temples and non-mages can't enter the temples, that isn't likely to be an issue.  As long as people don't see it, they can avoid thinking about where the water comes from.


AC

[Carnage]

Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas.

(also from offical docs)

I didn't say that every vivaduan PC, NPC, and VNPC is someone who's good-natured and healing, and so yes, I agree with you. That doesn't negate the fact that "out of all the elementalist, vivaduans are considered the healers." Their primary -public- function is to heal people. Whether they choose to do so or not is up to them. But the person who started the question asked if vivaduans would be able to find customers who'd buy water from them. According to the official docs, they should have no problem finding customers. If they are unable to, then perhaps THAT is the inaccurate stereotype created by players, and not the other way around.

Yes, it does. Magickers don't have a "primary public function". It's not their duty to heal people and make their booboos go away. Second, the docs say nothing about that "they should have no problem finding customers". It says they're worth a lot of money. Magickers are rare, Vivaduans even rarer, and are feared by many. So yes, someone who manages to find one probably would pay a lot of money for it. But it says nothing about how many people are looking to do that.

Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells.

This is the only part that directly refers to how much money a Vivaduan can make. Keep in mind that three hundred 'sid is a lot of money to a customer. If they offer unlimited water for the year to ten people (out of thousands they may have to search for to find them) for thirty 'sid, they're basically set. However, I don't believe that a people who hate, despise, and fear magickers (as outlined in those super-offical docs) are suddenly going to forget everything and drink this magickal water that appeared from nowhere.

[Rindan]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.  What I do think could happen is an unscrupulous person with some balls walk up to a magiker, buy some water in bulk, sell it, and accidently forget that they did not get the water from a clear oasis, but from a baby eating magiker.

In other words, I think there are few sane people that would buy directly from a magiker.  People are willing to pay templars for a reason, and it isn't because templars have a absolute monopoly on water.  People are willing to pay templars because the alternative is too horrifying to contemplate.  I think it would take a middle man to make the deal.

Despite how PCs tend to play, I think most people would go thirsty before drinking from a magiker.  The chances of a normal commoner drinking from a magiker are about the same as a normal American intentionally drinking the water from a nuclear reactor.

[Anonymous]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.

I'm with Rindan here.  I don't know if the waterseller is an NPC, but if it is it seems to fly in the face of all the fear people have been urged, by players and staff alike, to express towards magickers.

[My 2 sids]

I'm going to have to agree that many people in 'nak would indeed buy water from a magicker.  Likely these are the same people who would buy muddy water from elven street venders.  People in 'nak still trust (for the most part) in the Highlord and Templarate.  If the Templarate say its alright for a magicker to sell water... it probably is.  Like it or not the people of 'nak accept that there -are- going to be rinith trash, elves, half-elves, and magickers allowed to walk freely around the city.  And like it or not, the majority of the city will interact with these people; includeing buying their water.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.  What I do think could happen is an unscrupulous person with some balls walk up to a magiker, buy some water in bulk, sell it, and accidently forget that they did not get the water from a clear oasis, but from a baby eating magiker.

In other words, I think there are few sane people that would buy directly from a magiker.  People are willing to pay templars for a reason, and it isn't because templars have a absolute monopoly on water.  People are willing to pay templars because the alternative is too horrifying to contemplate.  I think it would take a middle man to make the deal.

Despite how PCs tend to play, I think most people would go thirsty before drinking from a magiker.  The chances of a normal commoner drinking from a magiker are about the same as a normal American intentionally drinking the water from a nuclear reactor.

And I personally think you're overestimating the fear an Allanaki commoner has for a magicker.  This kind of attitude, in my opinion, is what makes it so boring to play a gemmed Allanaki magicker.  Of course, in the end the point is moot since the majority of Allanaki characters don't have to pay a single coin for their water.  Along with half-giants and elves, magickers are another group that would benefit greatly from low level conflict.

Personally, I think PCs need to be exceptional when compared to their virtual counterparts.  They have the potential for exceptional skills, they often have exceptional aspirations, and so too should they occasionally turn to exceptional forces when the situation warrants it.  Yes, I'm talking about magick.  What if a character hates his enemy more than life itself?  Should he go to a mysterious Shadow Elementalist and pay for a curse to be placed on his foe?  Absolutely!  What if a smuggler is under increased heat from the templarate?  Could the plot take an unexpected turn if he brings a Wind Elementalist into his den of thieves?  Suppose a down-on-his-luck ranger is absolutely desperate for discount rate healing and water?  Should he pay attention the rumors that the Vividuan Temple might be useful to him?  Perhaps he should.

I'd be the last person to advocate any ignorance of the status and reaction towards gemmed magickers.  But when an IC attitude is getting in the way of meaningful interaction, I begin to question whether or not that attitude is being handled in the correct way.  And to me, the correct way is always the way that promotes the most interaction.  

While the documentations could be interpreted in the manner you suggest, they don't have to be.  And to be honest, I don't think your interpretation is the one that will make for the most exciting game.  If nobody's character will deal with magickers, we might as well go entirely Lord of the Rings, and make magick nothing more than a plot advancing tool that's only trusted to Karma 8 players.

[Anonymous]

ERS, I think people can interact with gemmed magickers fine, in fact, fear of magickers can be a great impetus to interact with them out of a worry that you might insult them while sitting at the bar..  I also think a large organization that hires or contracts magickers is completely A-OK and it happens quite a bit.

But that's a far cry from drinking something a 'foul magicker' finger wiggled up.

I think some random commoner coming along and drinking something a magicker provided requires a tremendous amount of trust and is an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

[wizturbo]

I really think people are too rich.  In part, I believe its because clans are giving away food and water to everyone who just says "Hey I want a job".  If more PC's had to buy water from the templarate, at the increasing prices the templarate charges, I think water magickers would see a lot more business.  If your character is dying of thirst, or in risk of dying of thirst within a short period of time, anything that -looks- like water would sound pretty damn good.  

While any magickers are certainly going to make people uneasy, at least in Allanak, I don't see any PC'ing standing up and running in horror everytime they see the gem.  In Tuluk, there'd be even -less- problems buying water from magickers, because no magicker would advertise their profession and receive a few arrows in their back.  So you'd just be buying water from a guy who happened to have a cask of it.

[The Poisoned Drinker]

The posts present valid arguements for both sides.  I'm not going to touch on these.

I do however want to add this.  Allanak is a huge city; so big that some commoners have never left their home quarters of the city in their entire lives.  It's quite possible that some of these un-enlightened people are very superstitious and afraid of the unknown, the weird, the magick.  And it is equally possible that those few who have the opportunity to learn and experience more, would have different reaction to drinking magick water.  Or seeing magick.  Or feeling it.

A poor character, who belongs in the former category, could have adverse reactions to drinking ultra-clean, refreshing water.  For someone who spent his entire life drinking water that was no better than piss...it would certainly be very alien and shocking to him.

So, what I'm saying don't automatically assume that it's a black and white scenario that can be defined by the letter of law (aka, the documents).  There are several shades of grey in this and many other similar situations.  As long as we all try rp our characters that fits with the Zalanthan environment, as well as their personalities, I say it's okay to have different ranges of reactions.

A certain "poisoned" drinker  :shock:

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think some random commoner coming along and drinking something a magicker provided requires a tremendous amount of trust and is an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

I'm not advocating -random- behavior.  I'm advocating behavior that is carefully planned and only carried through when all the consequences are thought out.  Is the character willing to risk that the water is something other than it seems?  Is the character willing to risk his friends deciding that he's just a little too creepy?  Perhaps he is, and perhaps he isn't.  All I suggest is that the answer to both those questions is sometimes yes.  Perhaps a dwarf needs to save every last sid that she can in the name of her all-powerful focus.  Perhaps the alternative is death by dehydration.  Perhaps a merchant has to save up in order to start her own importing business.  The possibilities are limited only by the imagination.  Magick is here for a reason.  USE it.

[Raesanos]

I personally think that its difficult to discuss this in terms of "would everybody do x or would everybody do y."  Different people do different things. Some people might be too horrified to ever buy water from a magicker.  Some people are too stupid, too desperate, or too brazen to care, and would go ahead and buy water wherever they'd like.  I see nothing wrong with assumeing all types of people exist, and wouldn't see anything wrong with playing a character either way, or in some inbetween shade of grey.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I personally think that its difficult to discuss this in terms of "would everybody do x or would everybody do y."  Different people do different things. Some people might be too horrified to ever buy water from a magicker.  Some people are too stupid, too desperate, or too brazen to care, and would go ahead and buy water wherever they'd like.  I see nothing wrong with assumeing all types of people exist, and wouldn't see anything wrong with playing a character either way, or in some inbetween shade of grey.

I agree wholeheartedly, but at the same time I'm trying to suggest that more characters (more than at the time, anyway) take a view that supports interaction with magickers.

ERS, I think people can interact with gemmed magickers fine, in fact, fear of magickers can be a great impetus to interact with them out of a worry that you might insult them while sitting at the bar..

More even than that.  I speak of interaction that actually lets magickers use their magick.

[Tamarin]

More even than that.  I speak of interaction that actually lets magickers use their magick.

As much as magickers are supposed to be feared, I think anything that allows them to interact with PCs on a general basis is a good idea.  Adds flavor to the game world, which at times, is needed.  Who knows...the whole society might split between those who drink magicked water, and those who rely on the Highlord's personal stash.

[Impska]

I think people might be overlooking how poor most of Allanak is. When faced with the choice of having your entire family die of thirst, or suck it up and give the magicker water a shot, I think most people (whether scared, or filled with hatred) would get desperate enough for just about anything.

The PC population is a bit skewed toward what might be considered "middle class", however. Most people are -not- barely scraping by. I could see them rationally budgetting more money so that they don't have to drink water that comes from a magicker.

That being said, it puts PC Vivs in an awkward position. There likely is an NPC market for their water, but there really isn't much of a PC one.

[John]

when an IC attitude is getting in the way of meaningful interaction, I begin to question whether or not that attitude is being handled in the correct way.  And to me, the correct way is always the way that promotes the most interaction.

I disagree with the sentiment to a degree, but I don't quite disagree with it in this situation.

However fear can be just as good an interaction booster then anything else. The problem is most PCs don't fear magickers enough for it to happen. PCs know if they get in quick, that magicker is going to die. PCs know that a curse can't be placed on themselves or their family. Most PCs, if threatened by a magicker to spy on someone or to kill them, will just go to their commoner superior and have the matter handled.

Allanaki magickers have the ability to be able to strike fear into normal Allanakis and have them do their bidding. The reason being, even if the Templar (who they fear nearly just as much if not more) takes care of the magicker, the magicker has friends who can do stuff to the PC. Problem is, magickers rarely have magicker friends who would do that due to the fact most people don't play magickers.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I disagree with the sentiment to a degree, but I don't quite disagree with it in this situation.

It isn't a question of a situation, save the situation that the entire playerbase is currently in.  What my sentiment comes down to is a belief that characters can interact with magicker's while still playing true to their fear.  I'd even go as far as to suggest that if you don't think your character is in a situation where interacting with magicker's is necessary, he can create one.

However fear can be just as good an interaction booster then anything else. The problem is most PCs don't fear magickers enough for it to happen. PCs know if they get in quick, that magicker is going to die. PCs know that a curse can't be placed on themselves or their family. Most PCs, if threatened by a magicker to spy on someone or to kill them, will just go to their commoner superior and have the matter handled.

No, the problem is that most players have their characters deal with a fear of magicker's by walking into a tavern, looking at the magicker, and either leaving or more often, going on as normal pretending that the magicker doesn't exist, perhaps offering an obligatory emote.  I concede the point that anything more elaborate than that usually involves killing a magicker through assassination or just simple wilderness PKs, the agressors using the fear of magicker's as a lame excuse to use their power to kill them.  This too can be avoided if people find better ways to interact with magicker's (even if, within the bounds of the situation, all it means is fleeing from them and reporting their presence to the authorities).

Using the context of a novel, I view magick as an equivalent to drugs (let me explain this one).  In RL, drugs are viewed as a Bad Thing.  So too, is magick.  If you associate with a drug (magick) user, that's bad.  If you're a drug addict (magicker), that's even worse.

But in a novel that involves drugs, you don't want to hear about the character who's pristine and holier than thou.  You want too read about the guy who indulges.  Maybe the story is about an addict in a downward spiral, or maybe it's about a criminal who's profit comes from drugs, and who pushes it on other people.  Either way, there's a certain appeal about stories where people do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.  They may not be doing what society approves on, but they can be very entertaining to read about.

I realize the flaw in my analogy.  Though Drug use is illegal in RL, there are far more people who would condone it than there are people in Zalanthas who would condone magick, which isn't even illegal (this is Allanak we're talking about).  However, the underlying concept is the same, if I've conveyed my point the way I'm trying to.

Maybe your character's story doesn't deal directly with the issue of magick.  That's okay.  In this aspect of the gameworld, his attitudes are the normal.  But with all the stories there are and have been about Zalanthas, I want to hear some about people doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.  Perhaps you'd care to tell them.

[crymerci]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Of course, you know what they say about assumptions.

[Angela Christine]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Yeah, I figure they gotta have a siphon out of the Viv temple, otherwise the place would have flooded by now.  Then the frequent flooding would undermine the foundation, because who in Allanak knows anything about proper drainage and water resistant foundations?  If there wasn't some kind of drainage the place would have collapsed into a giant sinkhole years ago.  Sure, the drainage mechanism may not be obvious, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Assumptions are necessary.  Without assumptions you have no way to understand facts.


AC

[Carnage]

Then the frequent flooding would undermine the foundation, because who in Allanak knows anything about proper drainage and water resistant foundations? If there wasn't some kind of drainage the place would have collapsed into a giant sinkhole years ago. Sure, the drainage mechanism may not be obvious, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

The sewers?

[Angela Christine]

The sewers?

Well sure, that would be one way to go.  But somehow a creek of pure, fresh water flowing into the sewers would seem out of place.  It would be a terrible waste, don't you think?  Would the Templarate and/or House Jal be stupid enough to throw away valuable water?  I don't think so, there is no reason for eduated nobles and templars to have a superstisious fear of magickally created water.  At the very least I'd expect them to pump it out to the farm fields.

AC