Magicker water sellers.

[drunkendwarf]

I'm also all for anything that promotes player interaction. Magickers are a rare thing in this mud, and a great source for some fun rp with other players. If other PC's aren't SUPPOSED to buy water from magickers...well, maybe that's just a view we should really step back and change as players and staff...honestly I think it would make this place a lot more fun. I'm not saying everyone get 'buddy buddy' with magickers...all the hatred, mistrust, etc etc can still be there...but I personally LOVE the idea of paying a Drovian to put a curse on that bastard a of a longneck that stole your coin pouch at the bar last night...it HAD to have been that sneaky fecker.

[John]

I personally LOVE the idea of paying a Drovian to put a curse on that bastard a of a longneck that stole your coin pouch at the bar last night...

I like that too. But PCs are more likely to go to a Templar then they are an elf. Fact is, PCs are more likely to go with coded benefits, then RP benefits. This isn't necessarily a bad thing of course. After all, this is a MUD and not a MUSH.

[Rindan]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Of course, you know what they say about assumptions.

To an Allanaki, there is a world of difference between Templar 'magik' and elementalist magik.  Templar magik is a mircle by Old Tek himself being performed through an appropriate agent, in this case a templar.  Tek is good.  Scary as all fuck, but good.  

It is the difference between Jesus walking on water and a witches' circle.  What a witch does and what a Jesus/Mohammad/Miracle dispenser of your choice is, in most people's minds entirely different from what a magik a demon or witch would wield.  Allanaki commoners see it as sort of the same thing.  When a templar does it, it is divine.  Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

[Quirk]

Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

Sorcerers and elementalists aren't going to be thought of the same way, in 'Nak. As Raesanos pointed out, some people are going to be desperate enough to go to a magicker for help in times of need, simply because they deem the alternative worse. Dealing with someone with uncanny powers is indeed going to be scary, but that doesn't mean people won't do so voluntarily given the right occasion, especially since these magickers are suffered to exist by the God-King himself and known to be utilised by the Templarate on occasion.

After all, on Earth in times when people believed in and feared magic and suspected witches were burned alive there was a not insignificant number of people who went to those supposed witches seeking healing for those they cared for or curses on their enemies. Had these witches been legally tolerated by the State and church, I imagine many more people would have gone to them for aid.

Quirk

[Rindan]

I wasn't implying that people would never deal with magikers, just that in the minds of most commoners there is a very big difference between what a Templar does and what an elementalist does.  I don't think many commoners would consider the two to be the same any more then a Christian would consider witch craft and Christ's miracle to the be the same thing.

As to the actual topic, I see not a reason in the world why a magiker who wants to sell water would not simply go through a middle man.  I imagine the business for water direct from the hands of a magiker would be damned small and limited to the people so desperate and poor they have no other choice.  On the other hand, business for unusually cheap water "from an oasis" (with a hand full of sand thrown in for looks) is probably much more common and profitable.  An elementalist wanting to sell his services to the common folk is not in a total bind, but I imagine they are discreet if nothing else.  Allanak is not the kind of place where dealings with magikers are held in the open.  If it involves magikers, it is probably black market material even if it not actually illegal.

Like I said, magiker selling water to middle men who turn around and sell it as non-magiker water?  Sound fine to me.  Walking up to a blue cloaked elementalist and giving him your water skin on the other hand is only going to happen under the most extreme conditions or with other gemmed.  Why do something like that in the open when there is a perfectly good underground to do it in where people don't have to know where the cheap water comes from?

[Kalden]

I think you're exaggerating the fear that commoners have for magickers, especially ones who produce water, Rindan.. These magickers are the relatives of people in the city. They've existed for eons. Obviously, people are going to know the difference between a Vivaduan, defiler, and Drovian. If the Vivaduan is selling cheap, pure water, then my character would buy it.

And sure, the middle man idea could work, but I see both ways as working. The middle man would be more effective, but then you have to split your profits.

[EvilRoeSlade]

To an Allanaki, there is a world of difference between Templar 'magik' and elementalist magik.  Templar magik is a mircle by Old Tek himself being performed through an appropriate agent, in this case a templar.  Tek is good.  Scary as all fuck, but good.  

It is the difference between Jesus walking on water and a witches' circle.  What a witch does and what a Jesus/Mohammad/Miracle dispenser of your choice is, in most people's minds entirely different from what a magik a demon or witch would wield.  Allanaki commoners see it as sort of the same thing.  When a templar does it, it is divine.  Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

I reject that analogy.  People fear the templarate so much that a social class in between templar's and commoners had to be implimented just so society can function properly.  There is one thing and one thing only that is the root of that fear, that makes templar's far different from any ordinary supressor.  Wielding the powers of the God-King.  The templar's will tell commoner's that their powers are different, but to the commoner's the distinction is irrelevant.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the commoner's of Allanak have had to accept drinking magick water as a fact of life.  What else are they to do?  Of course, that doesn't mean that they have to accept vividuans/templars as productive and vital members of society, as necessary to their survival as the existance of two sexes.

People are funny that way.

[Rindan]

If drinking magiker water is such a non-issue to Allanaki, then why don't magikers sell water?  Why would you go to a temple and pay an arm and a leg when you could simply get it from a magiker for a much reduced price.  Further, if the few vivaduians(compared to the population) find it easy to wander into the commons and unload as much water as they can make (which is a lot), then wouldn't that make all water elementalist extremely wealthy to the point where they would be their own little sub-class?

All features of the game soundly point to vivaduians being NOT being suppliers of water to the masses.  There are no NPC gemmed water sellers, there are no virtual lines outside of the their temple.  Vivaduians are not the exceptionally rich people they would be if they could easily sell off water, as the Krathi temple is many times more impressive and expensive then the vivaduian temple, and there is no help file mentioning that due to vivaduians amazing ability to undercut the templerate they are all fabulously wealthy.  The logic that commoners buy from vivaduins follows that even the most apprentice vivaduin is a rich man.

Vivaduians are not rich people.  They do not have people throwing themselves the friendly gemmed for a little cheap water.  If you are playing a person who buys water from a gemmed for your own personal consumption, it is pretty safe to say that you are playing the exception and not the average commoner.  There is a strong social stigma against magikers, and that stigma certainly includes drinking or eating the food they give you, and in fact I imagine the stigma against eating or drinking after a magiker would probably be one of the stronger stigmas.  I think most people would trust water from a 'rinth elf before they trusted water produced by a magiker. Tlaloc had something good to say on the subject a while ago.  

I think that people are missing that fear can certainly override utility.  It is in an elf's best interest to learn how to ride, but they don't.  Even today stigmas can override utility with ease.  It is easier to learn how to have sex with your mom, but that doesn't mean you are going to do it.  It is easier to just take off all of your clothes if you get hot, but you likely will never do it in public no matter how hot you get.  The fear of magikers overrides the obvious utility of them.  Certainly there might be exceptional people who will happily buy water from a magiker to save some 'sid, but these people would be an extreme exception and would conduct any such transaction in the dark due to the stigma attached to dealing with gemmed.

I am not saying people will never deal with magikers.  I am saying that there is a very strong social stigma against it.  If someone is going to deal with magikers in actual magik, who isn't a government official (noble houses/templerate workerse), they are going to do it in the dark, in a back alleyway, never speak of it in public, and probably feel as if they are dealing the devil.  Someone might ask a drovian to level a hex on an enemy from time to time, but you better believe they are not going to be seen doing it in public.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If drinking magiker water is such a non-issue to Allanaki, then why don't magikers sell water?  Why would you go to a temple and pay an arm and a leg when you could simply get it from a magiker for a much reduced price.  Further, if the few vivaduians(compared to the population) find it easy to wander into the commons and unload as much water as they can make (which is a lot), then wouldn't that make all water elementalist extremely wealthy to the point where they would be their own little sub-class?

All features of the game soundly point to vivaduians being NOT being suppliers of water to the masses.  There are no NPC gemmed water sellers, there are no virtual lines outside of the their temple.  Vivaduians are not the exceptionally rich people they would be if they could easily sell off water, as the Krathi temple is many times more impressive and expensive then the vivaduian temple, and there is no help file mentioning that due to vivaduians amazing ability to undercut the templerate they are all fabulously wealthy.  The logic that commoners buy from vivaduins follows that even the most apprentice vivaduin is a rich man.

All your facts are indisputable, but I disagree with the conclusion you come to based upon those facts.  Yes, you are correct.  Water elementalists are not the primary source of water-sellers in Allanak, and I hope that I wasn't trying to convey that point.  But is this because that nobody wants their water?  I don't think its that simple.

If I was going to start a business of breeding and selling mounts, then I would intentionally keep my business small and self-sufficient, expanding it under no circumstances.  If my business was succesful and I allowed it to grow, then sooner or later I would find my business very much shut down, and myself very much dead or imprisoned.  I would obey the same rules and endure the same consequences if I were to start an underground fighting ring.  I would also do so if I were to sell water.

The templarate's three businesses (mounts, public entertainment, and water) are going to be very, very well protected from competitors.  There isn't any law against selling those three things, because the law is unwritten.  It's for the same reasons that a commoner's business can't grow to usurp a merchant house, or even begin to approach it's glory.  The big dog gets all the meat, and well-fed and energetic, it chases all the little dogs away.

So in conclusion, a water-seller would probably put a good deal of their profits into bribing the low-level authorities who are nonetheless useful.  They wouldn't sell a huge amount of their water, because if the templarate felt that any particular water elementalist was cutting into their profits, then they could kill her without pretenses.  Elementalists always need to be careful not to make the templarate upset.

All but the most stubborn commoner's can distinguish one elementalist from another, and of them all, water elementalists would be the least feared.  They are still feared, but when a commoner looks at their abilities, they will tend to pale in comparison to other elementalists.  Vividuans create water (an oversimplification that probably encompasses a commoner's entire understanding of the magicker).  There isn't anything scary about water, and in fact it's an outright necessity, the most valuable substance on Zalanthas.  They still don't understand why they can create water, which is frightening.  But when they look at a sun elementalist who slays with the heat of the sun, or a shadow elementalist whose powers they can't even begin to comprehend, a water elementalist can seem like a minor evil.

To be fair, my arguement has no more merit than your arguement does.  Commoner's fear the templarate, yes, but do they fear them more than they fear water elementalists?  There isn't any easy answer to that.  There wouldn't be many commoner's who trust the templarate, but there could be some who see it as preferable to dealing with a gemmed mage.  In the end, I think that both the fact that water elementalists are feared, and the fact that water elementalists have to sell on a small-scale to avoid the all-powerful eye of the templarate are contributing factors to the fact that water elementalists don't tend to be overly rich people.  Still, that leaves in my mind a sizable commoner population who would buy from a water elementalist for the simple fact that they need every extra sid they can to avoid inevitable dehydration.  Of that population, only a small fraction actually gets the opportunity to buy water from a water elementalist.

I think that people are missing that fear can certainly override utility.  It is in an elf's best interest to learn how to ride, but they don't.  Even today stigmas can override utility with ease.  It is easier to learn how to have sex with your mom, but that doesn't mean you are going to do it.  It is easier to just take off all of your clothes if you get hot, but you likely will never do it in public no matter how hot you get.  The fear of magikers overrides the obvious utility of them.  Certainly there might be exceptional people who will happily buy water from a magiker to save some 'sid, but these people would be an extreme exception and would conduct any such transaction in the dark due to the stigma attached to dealing with gemmed.

A few things:

An elves decision not to learn how to ride comes when they are safe and certain that their legs can carry them through any danger.  When they die because they never learned how to ride, it's now too late.  If an elf could choose to have the knowledge of riding suddenly implanted into their mind when they were in danger, then I think the number of elves that chose to live would be greater than the ones that chose to die.

Today, social stigma's tend not to be life or death decisions.  Fuck your mom, or don't fuck her, neither decision will be the death of you.

Fear can override utility, yes.  But utility can also override fear.  On such a harsh world, being able to say that you drink natural, unmagicked water is going to be more of a luxury than a right.  You can't argue that the need for water and the fear for magick are two very powerful forces.  I suggest that rather than one of them being predominant in all cases, it would vary greatly from person to person.  Maybe one person will only deal with the middle-men that you previously suggested, pretending that the water is normal even though deep down inside she knows exactly where she's coming from.  Maybe another weighs survival with social stigma and possible personal risk, and finds out that survival comes on top.  I think the only rarity would be an extreme on either end of the spectrum.

I am not saying people will never deal with magikers.  I am saying that there is a very strong social stigma against it.  If someone is going to deal with magikers in actual magik, who isn't a government official (noble houses/templerate workerse), they are going to do it in the dark, in a back alleyway, never speak of it in public, and probably feel as if they are dealing the devil.  Someone might ask a drovian to level a hex on an enemy from time to time, but you better believe they are not going to be seen doing it in public.

I agree totally.  I'm not arguing with the laws of the gameworld, I'm arguing with the way those laws translate and the way people choose to play them.  I'd rather see somebody petition a gang of fire elementalists to set up an ambush for a rival group, stammering and quivering through the whole meeting and unable to look the marauder's in the eye, than see somebody refuse to deal with a magicker in the first place.  I don't want to go so far with this that people ignore that they're supposed to fear magicker's, but this is one instance where I think playing the exception benefits the game more than playing the norm.  Not that everybody should play the exception (because then it would lose the distinction of being an exception), merely a wildly disproportionate amount of character's.

[Twilight]

Rindan, you are actually incorrect in some of your facts.

[Anonymous]

Rindan, you are actually incorrect in some of your facts.

You are wrong about Rindan being wrong. (Look, I added something constructive to the debate too!)

[EvilRoeSlade]

Scanning Rindan's post, all I can find is the bit about comparing a water elementalist temple to a krathian temple (the appearance of their respective temples has nothing to do with their wealth, since it was the templarate that built those temples).

Can anyone clue me in?

[spawnloser]

I dunno, ERS...on your not trusting the Templarate.  I would think that they more simply fear the awesome power that the Templarate wields in the name of their God-King than anything else.

[John]

Commoner's fear the templarate, yes, but do they fear them more than they fear water elementalists?  There isn't any easy answer to that.  There wouldn't be many commoner's who trust the templarate, but there could be some who see it as preferable to dealing with a gemmed mage.

There is also the fear of the Templarate forcing them to get water from the Templar. After all, if the Templars find out your getting water from someone else

Fuck your mom, or don't fuck her, neither decision will be the death of you.

If only that were true....

Fear can override utility, yes.  But utility can also override fear.

I also see it as a fear overriding fear factor. What are you more afraid of? Dying? Or drinking a Vivaduan's water?

On such a harsh world, being able to say that you drink natural, unmagicked water is going to be more of a luxury than a right.

While I agree. All of my character's see the water from the Templar's as water from the Highlord, not water that was magicked from nothing

[Kalden]

I don't really understand why the Templarate just doesn't demand water from the Vivaduans and sell that? At least a certain amount every month, or something. They could take it from them freely, even. The Templarate has realistic concerns in supplying the city with water. It's not like their water supply comes from some endless pool, and they never have to worry about it. At least it shouldn't be. If they actually have unlimited water, then Zalanthas wouldn't be a desert world.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't really understand why the Templarate just doesn't demand water from the Vivaduans and sell that? At least a certain amount every month, or something. They could take it from them freely, even. The Templarate has realistic concerns in supplying the city with water. It's not like their water supply comes from some endless pool, and they never have to worry about it. At least it shouldn't be. If they actually have unlimited water, then Zalanthas wouldn't be a desert world.

If the Templarate was doing this, would you know about it?

John.  Your arguements are valid, but what it all comes down to is generalizations regarding what a commoner would do in any given situation.  In my last post I was trying to steer away from that.  The reason is that it's silly to say what a commoner would or wouldn't do.  You can't predict it because it ultimately depends on the commoner.

[Kalden]

If the Templarate was doing this, would you know about it?

I don't think it would be a huge secret. Obviously, many on this board have played gemmed Vivaduans, but no one has commented on this point. Is it too much of a secret to reveal?

[John]

Your arguements are valid, but what it all comes down to is generalizations regarding what a commoner would do in any given situation.

Actually I was agreeing and saying possible reasons some commoners would feel that way I agree, when it comes to which do you fear more to get water from, a gemmed magicker or a Templar, it just aint possible to say.

Also. If your going to have a water-selling magicker, or kank-selling commoner. Go to the mud account (and possibly CC it to Zhaira) and ask whether or not any virtual Templars would do something to you if they found out what your doing.

That doesn't take player Templars into account, for the simple reason they're too unpredictable But by doing that, you find out whether or not it's unrealistic and the level of secrecy you should keep.