Magicker water sellers.

[Guest]

Do you think the commoners of Allanak would buy water from a water cleric?  I can see it both ways.

I could see that they wouldn't because of their fear of magick.  They are untrusting of people with magickal abilities and why would you buy something as important as your water from somebody you didn't trust?

On the other hand, water is probabily the most important resource in the known world.  Poor commoners will be willing to do whatever they need to to get a good price on water, even dealing with magickers.  This view might be supported by the docs a little too:

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

(http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#water)

Anyway, I'd like to hear what you all think.

[Bestatte]

In -most- cases if I was playing in the south, and didn't work for a house that had regular access to "natural" sources of water...

I would not consider asking a Vivaduan to fill up my waterskin for a fee to be out of line. Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city. I would be wary of meeting up with one in a dark alley, but if I was dying of thirst in that dark alley I'd likely give that vivaduan my last sid for water.

In the north, a vivaduan is no less evil than a defiler and would be treated as such if found out.

[Carnage]

Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city.

No, that's a stereotype PCs have brought up. Not every single Vivaduan, NPC and VNPC, is someone who's good-natured and healing.

[Bestatte]

Vivaduans of all the elementalists are considered the healers of the city.

No, that's a stereotype PCs have brought up. Not every single Vivaduan, NPC and VNPC, is someone who's good-natured and healing.

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

(from the official docs)

They can earn an "easy living" by selling the water they conjure. They can sell their magicks for a good profit, "perhaps more than any other mage" and "in almost any situation."

I didn't say that every vivaduan PC, NPC, and VNPC is someone who's good-natured and healing, and so yes, I agree with you. That doesn't negate the fact that "out of all the elementalist, vivaduans are considered the healers." Their primary -public- function is to heal people. Whether they choose to do so or not is up to them. But the person who started the question asked if vivaduans would be able to find customers who'd buy water from them. According to the official docs, they should have no problem finding customers.  If they are unable to, then perhaps THAT is the inaccurate stereotype created by players, and not the other way around.

[a dull black gem]

Let's not get off topic here.  I don't know about vivaduans being healers of the city, but the web page seems to make it pretty clear as far as water sales. It says, "usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells.  Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation."  For that to be true it stands to reason that a lot of people must be buying water from water elementalists.  So unless every water elementalist making an easy living selling his water is selling his water only to large organizations, it seems to be logical that commoners would be buying water from water elementalists.
Of course, perhaps the webpage and help files are out of date to a new IG perception and relationship between commoners and water elementalists?

[Angela Christine]

"Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any
mage, however, only large organisations generally will
consider hiring a water elementalist. "


When you look through the elementalist helpfiles you see words like "unease" and "distrust" but not unreasoning terror or utter revulsion.  I think folks would buy water, and other goods, from a mage.  Something is making the NPC mages enough money that they all have clothes and food, right?  I think the key would be to not cast spells right in front of the customer, but since mages can't cast outside the temples and non-mages can't enter the temples, that isn't likely to be an issue.  As long as people don't see it, they can avoid thinking about where the water comes from.


AC

[Carnage]

Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas.

(also from offical docs)

I didn't say that every vivaduan PC, NPC, and VNPC is someone who's good-natured and healing, and so yes, I agree with you. That doesn't negate the fact that "out of all the elementalist, vivaduans are considered the healers." Their primary -public- function is to heal people. Whether they choose to do so or not is up to them. But the person who started the question asked if vivaduans would be able to find customers who'd buy water from them. According to the official docs, they should have no problem finding customers. If they are unable to, then perhaps THAT is the inaccurate stereotype created by players, and not the other way around.

Yes, it does. Magickers don't have a "primary public function". It's not their duty to heal people and make their booboos go away. Second, the docs say nothing about that "they should have no problem finding customers". It says they're worth a lot of money. Magickers are rare, Vivaduans even rarer, and are feared by many. So yes, someone who manages to find one probably would pay a lot of money for it. But it says nothing about how many people are looking to do that.

Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells.

This is the only part that directly refers to how much money a Vivaduan can make. Keep in mind that three hundred 'sid is a lot of money to a customer. If they offer unlimited water for the year to ten people (out of thousands they may have to search for to find them) for thirty 'sid, they're basically set. However, I don't believe that a people who hate, despise, and fear magickers (as outlined in those super-offical docs) are suddenly going to forget everything and drink this magickal water that appeared from nowhere.

[Rindan]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.  What I do think could happen is an unscrupulous person with some balls walk up to a magiker, buy some water in bulk, sell it, and accidently forget that they did not get the water from a clear oasis, but from a baby eating magiker.

In other words, I think there are few sane people that would buy directly from a magiker.  People are willing to pay templars for a reason, and it isn't because templars have a absolute monopoly on water.  People are willing to pay templars because the alternative is too horrifying to contemplate.  I think it would take a middle man to make the deal.

Despite how PCs tend to play, I think most people would go thirsty before drinking from a magiker.  The chances of a normal commoner drinking from a magiker are about the same as a normal American intentionally drinking the water from a nuclear reactor.

[Anonymous]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.

I'm with Rindan here.  I don't know if the waterseller is an NPC, but if it is it seems to fly in the face of all the fear people have been urged, by players and staff alike, to express towards magickers.

[My 2 sids]

I'm going to have to agree that many people in 'nak would indeed buy water from a magicker.  Likely these are the same people who would buy muddy water from elven street venders.  People in 'nak still trust (for the most part) in the Highlord and Templarate.  If the Templarate say its alright for a magicker to sell water... it probably is.  Like it or not the people of 'nak accept that there -are- going to be rinith trash, elves, half-elves, and magickers allowed to walk freely around the city.  And like it or not, the majority of the city will interact with these people; includeing buying their water.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I personally don't think a water elementalist could walk around the Allanaki bazaar hawking off water.  What I do think could happen is an unscrupulous person with some balls walk up to a magiker, buy some water in bulk, sell it, and accidently forget that they did not get the water from a clear oasis, but from a baby eating magiker.

In other words, I think there are few sane people that would buy directly from a magiker.  People are willing to pay templars for a reason, and it isn't because templars have a absolute monopoly on water.  People are willing to pay templars because the alternative is too horrifying to contemplate.  I think it would take a middle man to make the deal.

Despite how PCs tend to play, I think most people would go thirsty before drinking from a magiker.  The chances of a normal commoner drinking from a magiker are about the same as a normal American intentionally drinking the water from a nuclear reactor.

And I personally think you're overestimating the fear an Allanaki commoner has for a magicker.  This kind of attitude, in my opinion, is what makes it so boring to play a gemmed Allanaki magicker.  Of course, in the end the point is moot since the majority of Allanaki characters don't have to pay a single coin for their water.  Along with half-giants and elves, magickers are another group that would benefit greatly from low level conflict.

Personally, I think PCs need to be exceptional when compared to their virtual counterparts.  They have the potential for exceptional skills, they often have exceptional aspirations, and so too should they occasionally turn to exceptional forces when the situation warrants it.  Yes, I'm talking about magick.  What if a character hates his enemy more than life itself?  Should he go to a mysterious Shadow Elementalist and pay for a curse to be placed on his foe?  Absolutely!  What if a smuggler is under increased heat from the templarate?  Could the plot take an unexpected turn if he brings a Wind Elementalist into his den of thieves?  Suppose a down-on-his-luck ranger is absolutely desperate for discount rate healing and water?  Should he pay attention the rumors that the Vividuan Temple might be useful to him?  Perhaps he should.

I'd be the last person to advocate any ignorance of the status and reaction towards gemmed magickers.  But when an IC attitude is getting in the way of meaningful interaction, I begin to question whether or not that attitude is being handled in the correct way.  And to me, the correct way is always the way that promotes the most interaction.  

While the documentations could be interpreted in the manner you suggest, they don't have to be.  And to be honest, I don't think your interpretation is the one that will make for the most exciting game.  If nobody's character will deal with magickers, we might as well go entirely Lord of the Rings, and make magick nothing more than a plot advancing tool that's only trusted to Karma 8 players.

[Anonymous]

ERS, I think people can interact with gemmed magickers fine, in fact, fear of magickers can be a great impetus to interact with them out of a worry that you might insult them while sitting at the bar..  I also think a large organization that hires or contracts magickers is completely A-OK and it happens quite a bit.

But that's a far cry from drinking something a 'foul magicker' finger wiggled up.

I think some random commoner coming along and drinking something a magicker provided requires a tremendous amount of trust and is an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

[wizturbo]

I really think people are too rich.  In part, I believe its because clans are giving away food and water to everyone who just says "Hey I want a job".  If more PC's had to buy water from the templarate, at the increasing prices the templarate charges, I think water magickers would see a lot more business.  If your character is dying of thirst, or in risk of dying of thirst within a short period of time, anything that -looks- like water would sound pretty damn good.  

While any magickers are certainly going to make people uneasy, at least in Allanak, I don't see any PC'ing standing up and running in horror everytime they see the gem.  In Tuluk, there'd be even -less- problems buying water from magickers, because no magicker would advertise their profession and receive a few arrows in their back.  So you'd just be buying water from a guy who happened to have a cask of it.

[The Poisoned Drinker]

The posts present valid arguements for both sides.  I'm not going to touch on these.

I do however want to add this.  Allanak is a huge city; so big that some commoners have never left their home quarters of the city in their entire lives.  It's quite possible that some of these un-enlightened people are very superstitious and afraid of the unknown, the weird, the magick.  And it is equally possible that those few who have the opportunity to learn and experience more, would have different reaction to drinking magick water.  Or seeing magick.  Or feeling it.

A poor character, who belongs in the former category, could have adverse reactions to drinking ultra-clean, refreshing water.  For someone who spent his entire life drinking water that was no better than piss...it would certainly be very alien and shocking to him.

So, what I'm saying don't automatically assume that it's a black and white scenario that can be defined by the letter of law (aka, the documents).  There are several shades of grey in this and many other similar situations.  As long as we all try rp our characters that fits with the Zalanthan environment, as well as their personalities, I say it's okay to have different ranges of reactions.

A certain "poisoned" drinker  :shock:

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think some random commoner coming along and drinking something a magicker provided requires a tremendous amount of trust and is an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way.

I'm not advocating -random- behavior.  I'm advocating behavior that is carefully planned and only carried through when all the consequences are thought out.  Is the character willing to risk that the water is something other than it seems?  Is the character willing to risk his friends deciding that he's just a little too creepy?  Perhaps he is, and perhaps he isn't.  All I suggest is that the answer to both those questions is sometimes yes.  Perhaps a dwarf needs to save every last sid that she can in the name of her all-powerful focus.  Perhaps the alternative is death by dehydration.  Perhaps a merchant has to save up in order to start her own importing business.  The possibilities are limited only by the imagination.  Magick is here for a reason.  USE it.

[Raesanos]

I personally think that its difficult to discuss this in terms of "would everybody do x or would everybody do y."  Different people do different things. Some people might be too horrified to ever buy water from a magicker.  Some people are too stupid, too desperate, or too brazen to care, and would go ahead and buy water wherever they'd like.  I see nothing wrong with assumeing all types of people exist, and wouldn't see anything wrong with playing a character either way, or in some inbetween shade of grey.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I personally think that its difficult to discuss this in terms of "would everybody do x or would everybody do y."  Different people do different things. Some people might be too horrified to ever buy water from a magicker.  Some people are too stupid, too desperate, or too brazen to care, and would go ahead and buy water wherever they'd like.  I see nothing wrong with assumeing all types of people exist, and wouldn't see anything wrong with playing a character either way, or in some inbetween shade of grey.

I agree wholeheartedly, but at the same time I'm trying to suggest that more characters (more than at the time, anyway) take a view that supports interaction with magickers.

ERS, I think people can interact with gemmed magickers fine, in fact, fear of magickers can be a great impetus to interact with them out of a worry that you might insult them while sitting at the bar..

More even than that.  I speak of interaction that actually lets magickers use their magick.

[Tamarin]

More even than that.  I speak of interaction that actually lets magickers use their magick.

As much as magickers are supposed to be feared, I think anything that allows them to interact with PCs on a general basis is a good idea.  Adds flavor to the game world, which at times, is needed.  Who knows...the whole society might split between those who drink magicked water, and those who rely on the Highlord's personal stash.

[Impska]

I think people might be overlooking how poor most of Allanak is. When faced with the choice of having your entire family die of thirst, or suck it up and give the magicker water a shot, I think most people (whether scared, or filled with hatred) would get desperate enough for just about anything.

The PC population is a bit skewed toward what might be considered "middle class", however. Most people are -not- barely scraping by. I could see them rationally budgetting more money so that they don't have to drink water that comes from a magicker.

That being said, it puts PC Vivs in an awkward position. There likely is an NPC market for their water, but there really isn't much of a PC one.

[John]

when an IC attitude is getting in the way of meaningful interaction, I begin to question whether or not that attitude is being handled in the correct way.  And to me, the correct way is always the way that promotes the most interaction.

I disagree with the sentiment to a degree, but I don't quite disagree with it in this situation.

However fear can be just as good an interaction booster then anything else. The problem is most PCs don't fear magickers enough for it to happen. PCs know if they get in quick, that magicker is going to die. PCs know that a curse can't be placed on themselves or their family. Most PCs, if threatened by a magicker to spy on someone or to kill them, will just go to their commoner superior and have the matter handled.

Allanaki magickers have the ability to be able to strike fear into normal Allanakis and have them do their bidding. The reason being, even if the Templar (who they fear nearly just as much if not more) takes care of the magicker, the magicker has friends who can do stuff to the PC. Problem is, magickers rarely have magicker friends who would do that due to the fact most people don't play magickers.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I disagree with the sentiment to a degree, but I don't quite disagree with it in this situation.

It isn't a question of a situation, save the situation that the entire playerbase is currently in.  What my sentiment comes down to is a belief that characters can interact with magicker's while still playing true to their fear.  I'd even go as far as to suggest that if you don't think your character is in a situation where interacting with magicker's is necessary, he can create one.

However fear can be just as good an interaction booster then anything else. The problem is most PCs don't fear magickers enough for it to happen. PCs know if they get in quick, that magicker is going to die. PCs know that a curse can't be placed on themselves or their family. Most PCs, if threatened by a magicker to spy on someone or to kill them, will just go to their commoner superior and have the matter handled.

No, the problem is that most players have their characters deal with a fear of magicker's by walking into a tavern, looking at the magicker, and either leaving or more often, going on as normal pretending that the magicker doesn't exist, perhaps offering an obligatory emote.  I concede the point that anything more elaborate than that usually involves killing a magicker through assassination or just simple wilderness PKs, the agressors using the fear of magicker's as a lame excuse to use their power to kill them.  This too can be avoided if people find better ways to interact with magicker's (even if, within the bounds of the situation, all it means is fleeing from them and reporting their presence to the authorities).

Using the context of a novel, I view magick as an equivalent to drugs (let me explain this one).  In RL, drugs are viewed as a Bad Thing.  So too, is magick.  If you associate with a drug (magick) user, that's bad.  If you're a drug addict (magicker), that's even worse.

But in a novel that involves drugs, you don't want to hear about the character who's pristine and holier than thou.  You want too read about the guy who indulges.  Maybe the story is about an addict in a downward spiral, or maybe it's about a criminal who's profit comes from drugs, and who pushes it on other people.  Either way, there's a certain appeal about stories where people do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.  They may not be doing what society approves on, but they can be very entertaining to read about.

I realize the flaw in my analogy.  Though Drug use is illegal in RL, there are far more people who would condone it than there are people in Zalanthas who would condone magick, which isn't even illegal (this is Allanak we're talking about).  However, the underlying concept is the same, if I've conveyed my point the way I'm trying to.

Maybe your character's story doesn't deal directly with the issue of magick.  That's okay.  In this aspect of the gameworld, his attitudes are the normal.  But with all the stories there are and have been about Zalanthas, I want to hear some about people doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.  Perhaps you'd care to tell them.

[crymerci]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Of course, you know what they say about assumptions.

[Angela Christine]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Yeah, I figure they gotta have a siphon out of the Viv temple, otherwise the place would have flooded by now.  Then the frequent flooding would undermine the foundation, because who in Allanak knows anything about proper drainage and water resistant foundations?  If there wasn't some kind of drainage the place would have collapsed into a giant sinkhole years ago.  Sure, the drainage mechanism may not be obvious, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Assumptions are necessary.  Without assumptions you have no way to understand facts.


AC

[Carnage]

Then the frequent flooding would undermine the foundation, because who in Allanak knows anything about proper drainage and water resistant foundations? If there wasn't some kind of drainage the place would have collapsed into a giant sinkhole years ago. Sure, the drainage mechanism may not be obvious, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

The sewers?

[Angela Christine]

The sewers?

Well sure, that would be one way to go.  But somehow a creek of pure, fresh water flowing into the sewers would seem out of place.  It would be a terrible waste, don't you think?  Would the Templarate and/or House Jal be stupid enough to throw away valuable water?  I don't think so, there is no reason for eduated nobles and templars to have a superstisious fear of magickally created water.  At the very least I'd expect them to pump it out to the farm fields.

AC

[drunkendwarf]

I'm also all for anything that promotes player interaction. Magickers are a rare thing in this mud, and a great source for some fun rp with other players. If other PC's aren't SUPPOSED to buy water from magickers...well, maybe that's just a view we should really step back and change as players and staff...honestly I think it would make this place a lot more fun. I'm not saying everyone get 'buddy buddy' with magickers...all the hatred, mistrust, etc etc can still be there...but I personally LOVE the idea of paying a Drovian to put a curse on that bastard a of a longneck that stole your coin pouch at the bar last night...it HAD to have been that sneaky fecker.

[John]

I personally LOVE the idea of paying a Drovian to put a curse on that bastard a of a longneck that stole your coin pouch at the bar last night...

I like that too. But PCs are more likely to go to a Templar then they are an elf. Fact is, PCs are more likely to go with coded benefits, then RP benefits. This isn't necessarily a bad thing of course. After all, this is a MUD and not a MUSH.

[Rindan]

For a long time I've been under the assumption that the water sold by the white-robed templars in the waterseller's "temple" in Allanak, is actually provided by the magicks of the templarate.

Of course, you know what they say about assumptions.

To an Allanaki, there is a world of difference between Templar 'magik' and elementalist magik.  Templar magik is a mircle by Old Tek himself being performed through an appropriate agent, in this case a templar.  Tek is good.  Scary as all fuck, but good.  

It is the difference between Jesus walking on water and a witches' circle.  What a witch does and what a Jesus/Mohammad/Miracle dispenser of your choice is, in most people's minds entirely different from what a magik a demon or witch would wield.  Allanaki commoners see it as sort of the same thing.  When a templar does it, it is divine.  Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

[Quirk]

Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

Sorcerers and elementalists aren't going to be thought of the same way, in 'Nak. As Raesanos pointed out, some people are going to be desperate enough to go to a magicker for help in times of need, simply because they deem the alternative worse. Dealing with someone with uncanny powers is indeed going to be scary, but that doesn't mean people won't do so voluntarily given the right occasion, especially since these magickers are suffered to exist by the God-King himself and known to be utilised by the Templarate on occasion.

After all, on Earth in times when people believed in and feared magic and suspected witches were burned alive there was a not insignificant number of people who went to those supposed witches seeking healing for those they cared for or curses on their enemies. Had these witches been legally tolerated by the State and church, I imagine many more people would have gone to them for aid.

Quirk

[Rindan]

I wasn't implying that people would never deal with magikers, just that in the minds of most commoners there is a very big difference between what a Templar does and what an elementalist does.  I don't think many commoners would consider the two to be the same any more then a Christian would consider witch craft and Christ's miracle to the be the same thing.

As to the actual topic, I see not a reason in the world why a magiker who wants to sell water would not simply go through a middle man.  I imagine the business for water direct from the hands of a magiker would be damned small and limited to the people so desperate and poor they have no other choice.  On the other hand, business for unusually cheap water "from an oasis" (with a hand full of sand thrown in for looks) is probably much more common and profitable.  An elementalist wanting to sell his services to the common folk is not in a total bind, but I imagine they are discreet if nothing else.  Allanak is not the kind of place where dealings with magikers are held in the open.  If it involves magikers, it is probably black market material even if it not actually illegal.

Like I said, magiker selling water to middle men who turn around and sell it as non-magiker water?  Sound fine to me.  Walking up to a blue cloaked elementalist and giving him your water skin on the other hand is only going to happen under the most extreme conditions or with other gemmed.  Why do something like that in the open when there is a perfectly good underground to do it in where people don't have to know where the cheap water comes from?

[Kalden]

I think you're exaggerating the fear that commoners have for magickers, especially ones who produce water, Rindan.. These magickers are the relatives of people in the city. They've existed for eons. Obviously, people are going to know the difference between a Vivaduan, defiler, and Drovian. If the Vivaduan is selling cheap, pure water, then my character would buy it.

And sure, the middle man idea could work, but I see both ways as working. The middle man would be more effective, but then you have to split your profits.

[EvilRoeSlade]

To an Allanaki, there is a world of difference between Templar 'magik' and elementalist magik.  Templar magik is a mircle by Old Tek himself being performed through an appropriate agent, in this case a templar.  Tek is good.  Scary as all fuck, but good.  

It is the difference between Jesus walking on water and a witches' circle.  What a witch does and what a Jesus/Mohammad/Miracle dispenser of your choice is, in most people's minds entirely different from what a magik a demon or witch would wield.  Allanaki commoners see it as sort of the same thing.  When a templar does it, it is divine.  Scary, but still divine.  When one of those elementalist does it, or worse a sorceer, it is just plain scary.

I reject that analogy.  People fear the templarate so much that a social class in between templar's and commoners had to be implimented just so society can function properly.  There is one thing and one thing only that is the root of that fear, that makes templar's far different from any ordinary supressor.  Wielding the powers of the God-King.  The templar's will tell commoner's that their powers are different, but to the commoner's the distinction is irrelevant.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the commoner's of Allanak have had to accept drinking magick water as a fact of life.  What else are they to do?  Of course, that doesn't mean that they have to accept vividuans/templars as productive and vital members of society, as necessary to their survival as the existance of two sexes.

People are funny that way.

[Rindan]

If drinking magiker water is such a non-issue to Allanaki, then why don't magikers sell water?  Why would you go to a temple and pay an arm and a leg when you could simply get it from a magiker for a much reduced price.  Further, if the few vivaduians(compared to the population) find it easy to wander into the commons and unload as much water as they can make (which is a lot), then wouldn't that make all water elementalist extremely wealthy to the point where they would be their own little sub-class?

All features of the game soundly point to vivaduians being NOT being suppliers of water to the masses.  There are no NPC gemmed water sellers, there are no virtual lines outside of the their temple.  Vivaduians are not the exceptionally rich people they would be if they could easily sell off water, as the Krathi temple is many times more impressive and expensive then the vivaduian temple, and there is no help file mentioning that due to vivaduians amazing ability to undercut the templerate they are all fabulously wealthy.  The logic that commoners buy from vivaduins follows that even the most apprentice vivaduin is a rich man.

Vivaduians are not rich people.  They do not have people throwing themselves the friendly gemmed for a little cheap water.  If you are playing a person who buys water from a gemmed for your own personal consumption, it is pretty safe to say that you are playing the exception and not the average commoner.  There is a strong social stigma against magikers, and that stigma certainly includes drinking or eating the food they give you, and in fact I imagine the stigma against eating or drinking after a magiker would probably be one of the stronger stigmas.  I think most people would trust water from a 'rinth elf before they trusted water produced by a magiker. Tlaloc had something good to say on the subject a while ago.  

I think that people are missing that fear can certainly override utility.  It is in an elf's best interest to learn how to ride, but they don't.  Even today stigmas can override utility with ease.  It is easier to learn how to have sex with your mom, but that doesn't mean you are going to do it.  It is easier to just take off all of your clothes if you get hot, but you likely will never do it in public no matter how hot you get.  The fear of magikers overrides the obvious utility of them.  Certainly there might be exceptional people who will happily buy water from a magiker to save some 'sid, but these people would be an extreme exception and would conduct any such transaction in the dark due to the stigma attached to dealing with gemmed.

I am not saying people will never deal with magikers.  I am saying that there is a very strong social stigma against it.  If someone is going to deal with magikers in actual magik, who isn't a government official (noble houses/templerate workerse), they are going to do it in the dark, in a back alleyway, never speak of it in public, and probably feel as if they are dealing the devil.  Someone might ask a drovian to level a hex on an enemy from time to time, but you better believe they are not going to be seen doing it in public.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If drinking magiker water is such a non-issue to Allanaki, then why don't magikers sell water?  Why would you go to a temple and pay an arm and a leg when you could simply get it from a magiker for a much reduced price.  Further, if the few vivaduians(compared to the population) find it easy to wander into the commons and unload as much water as they can make (which is a lot), then wouldn't that make all water elementalist extremely wealthy to the point where they would be their own little sub-class?

All features of the game soundly point to vivaduians being NOT being suppliers of water to the masses.  There are no NPC gemmed water sellers, there are no virtual lines outside of the their temple.  Vivaduians are not the exceptionally rich people they would be if they could easily sell off water, as the Krathi temple is many times more impressive and expensive then the vivaduian temple, and there is no help file mentioning that due to vivaduians amazing ability to undercut the templerate they are all fabulously wealthy.  The logic that commoners buy from vivaduins follows that even the most apprentice vivaduin is a rich man.

All your facts are indisputable, but I disagree with the conclusion you come to based upon those facts.  Yes, you are correct.  Water elementalists are not the primary source of water-sellers in Allanak, and I hope that I wasn't trying to convey that point.  But is this because that nobody wants their water?  I don't think its that simple.

If I was going to start a business of breeding and selling mounts, then I would intentionally keep my business small and self-sufficient, expanding it under no circumstances.  If my business was succesful and I allowed it to grow, then sooner or later I would find my business very much shut down, and myself very much dead or imprisoned.  I would obey the same rules and endure the same consequences if I were to start an underground fighting ring.  I would also do so if I were to sell water.

The templarate's three businesses (mounts, public entertainment, and water) are going to be very, very well protected from competitors.  There isn't any law against selling those three things, because the law is unwritten.  It's for the same reasons that a commoner's business can't grow to usurp a merchant house, or even begin to approach it's glory.  The big dog gets all the meat, and well-fed and energetic, it chases all the little dogs away.

So in conclusion, a water-seller would probably put a good deal of their profits into bribing the low-level authorities who are nonetheless useful.  They wouldn't sell a huge amount of their water, because if the templarate felt that any particular water elementalist was cutting into their profits, then they could kill her without pretenses.  Elementalists always need to be careful not to make the templarate upset.

All but the most stubborn commoner's can distinguish one elementalist from another, and of them all, water elementalists would be the least feared.  They are still feared, but when a commoner looks at their abilities, they will tend to pale in comparison to other elementalists.  Vividuans create water (an oversimplification that probably encompasses a commoner's entire understanding of the magicker).  There isn't anything scary about water, and in fact it's an outright necessity, the most valuable substance on Zalanthas.  They still don't understand why they can create water, which is frightening.  But when they look at a sun elementalist who slays with the heat of the sun, or a shadow elementalist whose powers they can't even begin to comprehend, a water elementalist can seem like a minor evil.

To be fair, my arguement has no more merit than your arguement does.  Commoner's fear the templarate, yes, but do they fear them more than they fear water elementalists?  There isn't any easy answer to that.  There wouldn't be many commoner's who trust the templarate, but there could be some who see it as preferable to dealing with a gemmed mage.  In the end, I think that both the fact that water elementalists are feared, and the fact that water elementalists have to sell on a small-scale to avoid the all-powerful eye of the templarate are contributing factors to the fact that water elementalists don't tend to be overly rich people.  Still, that leaves in my mind a sizable commoner population who would buy from a water elementalist for the simple fact that they need every extra sid they can to avoid inevitable dehydration.  Of that population, only a small fraction actually gets the opportunity to buy water from a water elementalist.

I think that people are missing that fear can certainly override utility.  It is in an elf's best interest to learn how to ride, but they don't.  Even today stigmas can override utility with ease.  It is easier to learn how to have sex with your mom, but that doesn't mean you are going to do it.  It is easier to just take off all of your clothes if you get hot, but you likely will never do it in public no matter how hot you get.  The fear of magikers overrides the obvious utility of them.  Certainly there might be exceptional people who will happily buy water from a magiker to save some 'sid, but these people would be an extreme exception and would conduct any such transaction in the dark due to the stigma attached to dealing with gemmed.

A few things:

An elves decision not to learn how to ride comes when they are safe and certain that their legs can carry them through any danger.  When they die because they never learned how to ride, it's now too late.  If an elf could choose to have the knowledge of riding suddenly implanted into their mind when they were in danger, then I think the number of elves that chose to live would be greater than the ones that chose to die.

Today, social stigma's tend not to be life or death decisions.  Fuck your mom, or don't fuck her, neither decision will be the death of you.

Fear can override utility, yes.  But utility can also override fear.  On such a harsh world, being able to say that you drink natural, unmagicked water is going to be more of a luxury than a right.  You can't argue that the need for water and the fear for magick are two very powerful forces.  I suggest that rather than one of them being predominant in all cases, it would vary greatly from person to person.  Maybe one person will only deal with the middle-men that you previously suggested, pretending that the water is normal even though deep down inside she knows exactly where she's coming from.  Maybe another weighs survival with social stigma and possible personal risk, and finds out that survival comes on top.  I think the only rarity would be an extreme on either end of the spectrum.

I am not saying people will never deal with magikers.  I am saying that there is a very strong social stigma against it.  If someone is going to deal with magikers in actual magik, who isn't a government official (noble houses/templerate workerse), they are going to do it in the dark, in a back alleyway, never speak of it in public, and probably feel as if they are dealing the devil.  Someone might ask a drovian to level a hex on an enemy from time to time, but you better believe they are not going to be seen doing it in public.

I agree totally.  I'm not arguing with the laws of the gameworld, I'm arguing with the way those laws translate and the way people choose to play them.  I'd rather see somebody petition a gang of fire elementalists to set up an ambush for a rival group, stammering and quivering through the whole meeting and unable to look the marauder's in the eye, than see somebody refuse to deal with a magicker in the first place.  I don't want to go so far with this that people ignore that they're supposed to fear magicker's, but this is one instance where I think playing the exception benefits the game more than playing the norm.  Not that everybody should play the exception (because then it would lose the distinction of being an exception), merely a wildly disproportionate amount of character's.

[Twilight]

Rindan, you are actually incorrect in some of your facts.

[Anonymous]

Rindan, you are actually incorrect in some of your facts.

You are wrong about Rindan being wrong. (Look, I added something constructive to the debate too!)

[EvilRoeSlade]

Scanning Rindan's post, all I can find is the bit about comparing a water elementalist temple to a krathian temple (the appearance of their respective temples has nothing to do with their wealth, since it was the templarate that built those temples).

Can anyone clue me in?

[spawnloser]

I dunno, ERS...on your not trusting the Templarate.  I would think that they more simply fear the awesome power that the Templarate wields in the name of their God-King than anything else.

[John]

Commoner's fear the templarate, yes, but do they fear them more than they fear water elementalists?  There isn't any easy answer to that.  There wouldn't be many commoner's who trust the templarate, but there could be some who see it as preferable to dealing with a gemmed mage.

There is also the fear of the Templarate forcing them to get water from the Templar. After all, if the Templars find out your getting water from someone else

Fuck your mom, or don't fuck her, neither decision will be the death of you.

If only that were true....

Fear can override utility, yes.  But utility can also override fear.

I also see it as a fear overriding fear factor. What are you more afraid of? Dying? Or drinking a Vivaduan's water?

On such a harsh world, being able to say that you drink natural, unmagicked water is going to be more of a luxury than a right.

While I agree. All of my character's see the water from the Templar's as water from the Highlord, not water that was magicked from nothing

[Kalden]

I don't really understand why the Templarate just doesn't demand water from the Vivaduans and sell that? At least a certain amount every month, or something. They could take it from them freely, even. The Templarate has realistic concerns in supplying the city with water. It's not like their water supply comes from some endless pool, and they never have to worry about it. At least it shouldn't be. If they actually have unlimited water, then Zalanthas wouldn't be a desert world.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't really understand why the Templarate just doesn't demand water from the Vivaduans and sell that? At least a certain amount every month, or something. They could take it from them freely, even. The Templarate has realistic concerns in supplying the city with water. It's not like their water supply comes from some endless pool, and they never have to worry about it. At least it shouldn't be. If they actually have unlimited water, then Zalanthas wouldn't be a desert world.

If the Templarate was doing this, would you know about it?

John.  Your arguements are valid, but what it all comes down to is generalizations regarding what a commoner would do in any given situation.  In my last post I was trying to steer away from that.  The reason is that it's silly to say what a commoner would or wouldn't do.  You can't predict it because it ultimately depends on the commoner.

[Kalden]

If the Templarate was doing this, would you know about it?

I don't think it would be a huge secret. Obviously, many on this board have played gemmed Vivaduans, but no one has commented on this point. Is it too much of a secret to reveal?

[John]

Your arguements are valid, but what it all comes down to is generalizations regarding what a commoner would do in any given situation.

Actually I was agreeing and saying possible reasons some commoners would feel that way I agree, when it comes to which do you fear more to get water from, a gemmed magicker or a Templar, it just aint possible to say.

Also. If your going to have a water-selling magicker, or kank-selling commoner. Go to the mud account (and possibly CC it to Zhaira) and ask whether or not any virtual Templars would do something to you if they found out what your doing.

That doesn't take player Templars into account, for the simple reason they're too unpredictable But by doing that, you find out whether or not it's unrealistic and the level of secrecy you should keep.