Lots of Conflict on a Small Scale

[Rindan]

So I have been away for a while due to RL.  I have had a little time to think about something I was thinking about when I stopped playing, and of course that means I am going to rant and froth at the mouth for the next few minutes.

   I think the game should scale down conflict.  Forget the big picture and concentrate on the small picture.  Do this so that conflict can be more active, more 'in your face', more accessible, and more 'Armageddonish'.

   I recall a character I had during a major event.  The major event was indeed cool for the time it lasted.  After the event was over though, my character had no framework to deal with the event.  At best, I had a task that was the equivalent to "figure out who the Dragon is and what he wants".  In other words, the task was impossible for anyone except for the most exception of characters.  I wasn't playing someone exceptional and didn't want to.  The only goals I could come up with around this event were goals that I could potentially finish in RL years.  Much of the overall plotting in Armageddon ends up like this by the very nature of the organization that make up the game.  That is not to say you can't make up other goals, but the game does very little to support you, especially if you are not a trail blazer.

   Intrigue between noble houses and merchant houses, while interesting, is very inaccessible.  Anyone playing anything close to average is by default out.  Average people are not members of noble houses, and they sure as hell are not the ones making major decisions.  Despite this, conflict in the game tends to revolve around these organization.  Plots in these organizations are large and overarching.  The consequences are major and all require massive planning and coding.  Further, this sort of conflict is very 'un-armageddon'.  Zalanthas is a harsh desert world where it is a struggle to simply survive, yet much of the conflict deals with people who have never even seen the 'you are thirsty' message.

   What I suggest is changing the very nature of conflict by changing the nature of clans.  Instead of throwing people into clans that have thousands of VNPCs, put them in clans with just dozens of VNPCs.  Make these clans that actually have limited resources that are perceptible on a player level.  By making them have limited resources that is perceptible to an actual player, then the player then has the ability to contribute resources.  For instances, it might not mean a damned thing if another Kuraci recruit joins up.  It might be a big deal for the rag tag group that is stationed in Red Storm and has less then 50 men to throw around and hold down the fort.  It is nothing for a Noble house to have squad of guards get killed, but it is a big deal for a mercenary company with only three squads to begin with.

   In my ideal world, most clans are the same size as they are today in terms of PCs, but much smaller in terms of VNPCs.  Instead of noble houses, have commoner houses.  They still operate on the same basic idea with political intrigue being where most of the conflict goes on, it is just that they are now moved to a level that is more accessible.  In the same way Tor and Borsail might fight for prominence in Allanak and the entire known world, the extended Bedade family on miner street and the extended Amore family on stone carvers street could battle for dominance of the commons.  Instead of having to sabotage the Tor Academy, you would need to sabotage the Bedade family home.  Instead of paying a hundred bards to smear the name of Oash, you might pay an elven whore to spread word that an Amore boy is having a love affair with an elf.  Instead of hiring an old and power assassin or magiker to kill a Oash Lord, you hire a bunch of 'rinth thugs to kill a couple of Bedade children.  The same basic type of conflict exists, but now it is working on an entirely different level, and at this level all people can join in.

A nice side effect of this is that more conflict naturally presents itself.  Without the vast resources of a House, a simple struggle for survival is plot enough to get things started.  If there are two small mercenary companies in Allanak, then by default they are competing for the same space.  If both exist at the edge of survival there is an incentive to either struggle against each other or work together.  If there are two commoner houses that both revolve around a certain service or product, they are going to naturally conflict with each other.  If two gangs occupy the same area, the are going to naturally struggle for control.

The nice thing is that now when these struggles arise, other struggles and form in parallel.  So, if two commoner families struggle against each other, they might enlist the aid of competing mercenary companies or gangs.  Because all of the conflict exists on the same low level, all parties invovled and even independents can entire the fray.  An independent mercenary might make no sense of House Salarr to hire, but it makes plenty of sense for a commoner merchant family.  

With all conflict on roughly the same low level, the game can be more easily fine tuned.  Right now it is far easier to find a silk skirt then it is to find a ratty old cloth skirt.  Prices are skewed with the assumption that everyone is making 500 'sid a month off their cushy noble house job.  Transfer these positions to a lower class and buying a silk skirt might become a true achievement, not a way to burn that pile of money sitting in your bank account.

Finally, let me retort the response I know I am going to get.  Yes, I know that this is already happening to a greater or lesser extent in a certain area in the game.  Red Storm 0WnZ bitches, but I would like to see this expanded farther.  Allanak is still very much the land of silk where you do a double take if you see a city elf and pity the poor bastard because he will only ever deal with noble house servants and guards.

[My 2 sids]

[TONS]

What he said!  Like I've been trying to say in many many posts, sometimes I think we have gotten carried away with complexities... we, as a game, are missing out on some exellent opprotunites for smaller things.

[Agent_137]

I agree. I ran into this problem with my old MUD, Dragonrealms. I haven't noticed it in Arm yet mostly because I haven't played very long. Hell, the day to day chores in the Byn are so much more fun than an RPT in Dragonrealms that I nearly wet myself everytime I play. But it does seem to me that a lot of intrigue goes on in the upper echelons while the majority of the people's intrigue is getting the next meal. I guess you have to give those nobles something to do, or they'd be bored, though, with having all their meals on silver platters.

How about instead of making commoner houses, you just have the god-sorcerer-kings keel over and die, and open the stage for rebellion? It's one thing to rebel against horrible odds, but it's just a non-issue if rebellion involves fighting a god who can turn himself into a dragon. That's juts plain not fair.

[Dan]

LOL Agent...

I agree with Rindan on this.

[My 2 sids]

But it does seem to me that a lot of intrigue goes on in the upper echelons while the majority of the people's intrigue is getting the next meal. I guess you have to give those nobles something to do, or they'd be bored, though, with having all their meals on silver platters.

This is an issue I'd like to bring up.  Yes, all this stuff should go on between nobles and maybe their houses/staff... but it seems like almost EVERY PC in the city is in on this sort of stuff.  If you play a commoner... play a -commoner-... with commoner issues.

[John]

If there are two small mercenary companies in Allanak, then by default they are competing for the same space.  If both exist at the edge of survival there is an incentive to either struggle against each other or work together.

There's a problem with having 2 clans that basically do the same thing. For example let's say the Byn was split into two mercenary companies (because of in-fighting). You now have Byn A and Byn B. What's going to happen is either the Byn numbers will be split into two smaller clans, so now you only have half the PCs in a clan. Or Byn A and Byn B will each have the same amount of PCs as the original Byn did and drain the PCs from other clans.

People already complain about noble houses, because they're a drain on the PCs because of how similar they are. If you got rid of the current clans and made similar smaller clans, people would still complain about any clan that is fairly similar to another clan. For instance having two merchant companies that sell spice.

Also, having clans that are easier for PCs to influence is dangerous. If PC leader X does stupid thing A, B and C. The greater their influence, the worse it will be, and is possible to result in clans being short-lived. Is that a good thing? To me it sounds good, but it also sounds like a headache in the making for Imms

However a good way to test out this idea, would be to open up some of the smaller merchant clans. Open up 1 or two and see what happens

Another idea is to start a clan yourself. Don't get Imm support, go through the hard work of trying to make it, then when you've put a lot of effort into it, it looks like it's going to survive, ask the Imms for support then

Chances are you won't get to that stage, but you'll have the sort of RP you described.

[Gilvar]

To me one of the main selling points of Armageddon is the 'minimalism' of your character. Most other MUD's I've played, the PCs were basically the 'heroes' the stand-out individuals that were expected to lead, do great things, and essentially an 'avatared' or 'maxxed' PC could kill anything in the game. This of course attributes to the feeling of greatness, the fact that you've reached an 'end' in terms of statistical character development.
But Armageddon is different then that. Basically your a small fish in a big pond. Everyone basically starts out an average (or at least lowly) Joe, you'll probably never be able to take on the whole of Allanak, and likely so. You may never rise to the leadership of House Whatever... and again that seems to be part of the intrigue. Your not a bold print name.
That seems to be similarly conveyed by the likeness of PC and NPC sdescs.

Intrigue between noble houses and merchant houses, while interesting, is very inaccessible. Anyone playing anything close to average is by default out.

I beg to differ. Drawing from a plethora of 'average' pcs in average places (almost all of mine), I can safely say that some of the most interesting and wholly intriguing events have occurred in these circumstances. I had one character who worked literally as a miner. He'd go out every morning (that I was online), do devotions and head out into the sands pick entow. The prescribed event would hopefully be to mine a little, stop for a midday day meal in the tent, head back out and be in by Sun-day. Hit the bars or inns, and then repeat in the morning. Sleeping every two-days, which was his sleeping pattern.
-Doing just this I ended up developing a nemesis who eventually had me killed. Had brief spats with a handful of houses, and even had a run in with a defiler.
For the most part I'd say that much intrigue was accessible. It was a lot of fun, I lived an ideal 'common' life and had lost of fun along the way.

Plots in these organizations are large and overarching. The consequences are major and all require massive planning and coding.

This is true in a sense because of basically how the game is run. Most of us immortals are tied to a clan, and that almost fully occupies our time in alot of cases. We deal strictly with these peole for a majority of time both in npc interaction, email, and of course plotting. I do disagree with the consequences being major and requiring massive planning and coding, but I can guess that you get this impression because those 'ends' are usually the ones most visable. A good plot is one that the players didn't know happened. An event that plays off so naturally that people didn't even really notice so to speak. And I'd say alot of those happen, but obviously they are excluded from mention.

Further, this sort of conflict is very 'un-armageddon'. Zalanthas is a harsh desert world where it is a struggle to simply survive, yet much of the conflict deals with people who have never even seen the 'you are thirsty' message

Continuing off of the above... its a difficult position. When a plot effects a clan, usually everyone in the clan is either directly involved or effected. Their 'conflict/benefit' is right there. When we run plots involve commoners/those not in houses, its ALOT harder to get it as noticed, and sorta runs into the line of... just because you didn't hear or witness something doesn't mean its not happening. Going off your own theme sorta, there are either the massive plots/conflicts, think like HRPTs, or small ones that your character may or may not ever be involved in, but someone is.

What I suggest is changing the very nature of conflict by changing the nature of clans. Instead of throwing people into clans that have thousands of VNPCs, put them in clans with just dozens of VNPCs. Make these clans that actually have limited resources that are perceptible on a player level. By making them have limited resources that is perceptible to an actual player, then the player then has the ability to contribute resources. For instances, it might not mean a damned thing if another Kuraci recruit joins up. It might be a big deal for the rag tag group that is stationed in Red Storm and has less then 50 men to throw around and hold down the fort. It is nothing for a Noble house to have squad of guards get killed, but it is a big deal for a mercenary company with only three squads to begin with.

I don't think this is nescessary because I don't think the problem is as large as your making it. Yes you personally might not be experiencing enough conflict to suit your tastes, but its very hard with limited staff members to make each and every player involved in something, and make that involvement exactly to their liking. Also there is no real IC justification for the sudden downsizing of virtual populations of houses that have existed for centuries.

You go on to talk about your ideal world with smaller clans. And the only real thing I can offer is to make one of your own. I've seen your discussed 'survival conflict' in emerging clans, and its the reason some die out. I don't think that suggesting existing clans... or the overall clan scheme to be smaller really solves your problem. Many people, myself included, enjoy the anonymity and ambiguity(sp) of life in a large virtual clan. Its not a dead end though either. Yet at the same time there ARE small, struggling clans (so to speak). Most player run. From player run merchant organizations to mining/salt companies.

At the same time I can't really think of any way to add small clans like that. Obviously a clan would either be successful and grow out of their problems or fail and eventually either die out or break up due to the stagnation of a torrid life. Its a bit of a paradox thing... like how long would a, lets say modified Kuraci, clan of 20 last before eventually either becoming successful and not having to worry about food and water or failing to the point where no one wants to be a part of it.

I think that Zalanthas is a two-sided thing. On one side is the horrid life of the poor, the harsh day-to-day life that many will never see beyond. The otherside however is the more comfortable life of those in service to the nobles. While they still live in the same world, their lives are obviously easier. But I'd say there is a fair amount of differing types of conflict to be had by those that'd be willing to search... or sometimes not even search, as it will just find you.

However at the same time, there has been obvious things in the works to make life harder/harsher for everyone, while at the same time grittying it up. You may or may not have encountered these things, but the one thing I'm thinking of is a 'wide-sweeping' conflict that is more at the lower in your face level that you seem to be wanting. But I cannot put you in the right place at the right time, so you may or may not experience it, which is always the case.

On a final note, the best interaction/intrigue/conflict/plots are player-to-player. A common thing I hear is that immortal activity almost always spawns superficial behavior. From people emoting more, to doing larger things to garner attention, to even just thinking more. However when players are dealing with other players the interaction and conflict ensuing seems more natural. Your not trying to impress a person that ultimately can open doors or close them for you in your future. So if anything I think there should be more of an emphasis placed on players working to start their own plots, rather then waiting for plots and conflict to sweep them up.

I hope the responses fit, I read your note a few times so not to be confused with just 'skimming it'.

Feel free to respond with anything.
-Gilvar

[jhunter]

What I suggest is changing the very nature of conflict by changing the nature of clans. Instead of throwing people into clans that have thousands of VNPCs, put them in clans with just dozens of VNPCs. Make these clans that actually have limited resources that are perceptible on a player level. By making them have limited resources that is perceptible to an actual player, then the player then has the ability to contribute resources. For instances, it might not mean a damned thing if another Kuraci recruit joins up. It might be a big deal for the rag tag group that is stationed in Red Storm and has less then 50 men to throw around and hold down the fort. It is nothing for a Noble house to have squad of guards get killed, but it is a big deal for a mercenary company with only three squads to begin with.

I never thought about this until you posted...

This, I now believe, is the reason why as far as being in a clan is concerned, the clan I had -the- most fun being in was a small, pc run clan.

Everything the average member does becomes much more influencial to the clan and it's survival so there is more steady struggle and strife for all concerned. It keeps all the members involved and makes their place in such clans more important.

[sarahjc]

I don't know of this would suit Arm or not.. and maybe its because I just watched Gangs of NY again..

But I would love to see a few more city corrupting gangs.. Bands of pick-pockets and thieves.. The way I see it.. the nobles and merchant house families are the well to do.. yeah they plot against each other and everyone else for that matter, but they are relatively removed from the daily scum and filth that walks the streets.  

The Templars..(Now there is a fun role, people who can really spice things up) horribly corrupted cops that would basically know every thief, scavenger and filthy raider in town.  No need to kill these people, They are profitable!! Take a skim from what they steal every week, as well as the smaller Merchant's shops for "protection purposes" from the larger houses. Take bribes from the larger merchant houses so that they can go about thier quite little plots to stamp out the smaller shops. And if you not too busy with all that, get involved in some other really cool shit.. I would love to see a templar walk into a tavern and see half the low-brow PC's slink out cause they don't want to pay up or can't and are just plain afraid. I would love to see templars as glorified thugs, ruling by force.. At least some of them. I may be wrong, but isn't that what templars are all about?

Why not see more PC's banding together to form low class clans.. Safety in numbers right?? And how is a young pickpocket ever going to lean how do things right without a mentor..

Isn't raiding is a lot more successful when you have two or three on the job as opposed to one on one??.

And Con's are always more convincing with testimonials from others aren't they??

Anyway, my point being I see no reason why small people don't do small plotting and big people big.. big plotting.. It's your game people.. Make it fun!!

[Quirk]

You may never rise to the leadership of House Whatever... and again that seems to be part of the intrigue. Your not a bold print name.

It's not a case of "may never", but "will never". I could be wrong, but I have yet to hear of a PC noble who has attained the top position in their House, where they alone could have final say on its policies. In times gone by, as posted by j0ram a little while ago, PC nobles and Merchant House family members were given a somewhat freer hand, and PCs existed who could make or break other Houses. This was (IMO, quite rightly) deemed unrealistic and out of kilter with the House being largely made up of vast numbers of VNPCs, and now nobles and their ilk have a rather lesser ability to decide House policy.

I had one character who worked literally as a miner. He'd go out every morning (that I was online), do devotions and head out into the sands pick entow. The prescribed event would hopefully be to mine a little, stop for a midday day meal in the tent, head back out and be in by Sun-day. Hit the bars or inns, and then repeat in the morning. Sleeping every two-days, which was his sleeping pattern.
-Doing just this I ended up developing a nemesis who eventually had me killed. Had brief spats with a handful of houses, and even had a run in with a defiler.

Again, there's a strong realism issue here. How likely is it that Noble Houses would care about the fate of a simple miner? In any case, I fail to see how this demonstrates that the internal intrigues between Houses spill over to affect the man on the street. Intrigue is always accessible, but unless you're either working with the Houses or searching their doings out for your own nefarious reasons, the intrigue will be on a different level from the inter-House rivalries.

When we run plots involve commoners/those not in houses, its ALOT harder to get it as noticed, and sorta runs into the line of... just because you didn't hear or witness something doesn't mean its not happening.

I'd suggest a lot of this is because they are independents rather than clans. I think what Rindan's suggesting is groupings more along the size of a small elven tribe, where the clans are of a small enough nature that PCs can have a huge impact on them.

I don't think this is nescessary because I don't think the problem is as large as your making it. Yes you personally might not be experiencing enough conflict to suit your tastes, but its very hard with limited staff members to make each and every player involved in something, and make that involvement exactly to their liking. Also there is no real IC justification for the sudden downsizing of virtual populations of houses that have existed for centuries.

I don't think anyone's suggesting the virtual House populations be downsized - Rindan's advocating a playerbase shift from having large numbers of players being fed and watered in the huge clans that control large sections of the world to smaller "families" whose survival depends largely on the PCs involved in them.

You go on to talk about your ideal world with smaller clans. And the only real thing I can offer is to make one of your own.

Yes, yes and yes. This ought not to be staff-intensive - the players ought to be the ones to bring these clans into existence. At the same time, though, some pressure needs put on those recruiting for Noble Houses and Merchant Houses so greedy hiring practices are discontinued. After all, given the choice between joining a struggling independent merchant and his small band or signing up for security with House Voryek, nine out of ten filthy hunters will pick Voryek. What they're doing is quite reasonable from their character's viewpoint, but Voryek should ICly be discerning in who they hire and only hire the best, those who've proven themselves - they have the entire hunter population to pick and choose from, and there are a lot of hunters.

Its a bit of a paradox thing... like how long would a, lets say modified Kuraci, clan of 20 last before eventually either becoming successful and not having to worry about food and water or failing to the point where no one wants to be a part of it.

Worrying about food and water is a much lesser issue than the effects the PCs can have on the direction of the clan. If the Rakakas family trashes Eddol's Wood Emporium, firstly Eddol's business is suddenly and perhaps severely hurt; secondly he can then order his employees to get him revenge without his superiors saying "Actually, we usually have good relations with the Rakakas bunch, don't do anything right now, we'll have a word with their family head". If Eddol has to bribe a templar, the bribe's not coming out of some magickal inexhaustible cornucopia of sid - this is money he's had to work for. Being successful enough that food and water is not a worry is merely the beginning.

So if anything I think there should be more of an emphasis placed on players working to start their own plots, rather then waiting for plots and conflict to sweep them up.

Again, vehemently agreed. The only way to get the ball rolling is to have players creating and inhabiting these clans. Once it becomes apparent to people that there is more intrigue and interest to be had there, I'd hope that most people would give up on playing dull but secure characters tied to Houses and gravitate towards them.

My cynicism makes me suspect a different end result though. People who should have no interest in these smaller clans will take an interest, because the PC numbers will inflate their influence. That not every seller of arms and armour is wiped out by Salarr or every jeweller by Kadius is quite apparent from a brief walk through the Bazaar. A PC grouping that grew powerful enough to hold down a stall there would almost certainly attract the animosity of any major House they were competing with, however, particularly if more PCs were present in the "smaller" clan than the House. I think that those remaining in the Houses would treat those small clans almost as equals and as threats, and we'd see a lot of RP that made no IC sense whatsoever.

Quirk

[samsara]

I think the struggling for survival clans can be some of the best experiences in the game. Limited resources, limited skills, limited territory, and yet each PC having a profound experience on their group, living or dead.

There are a couple common issues that arise.
1. The breaking point between struggling to survive and reaping a wealthy living is often too easily achieved. It can be VERY difficult at the beginning, but rapidly turns into being very easy. It would be nice to try and figure out how to make it last longer and be more gradual.

2. Inter group struggle, especially among small groups tends to become kill, kill back, kill them back, kill them all. It's the easiest way and most direct way to break the back of another group and not have to worry about revenge. While brutal and harsh it also eliminates long term rivalry and other ways to compete when it's easier to jump to the forgone conclusion.

3. Often small groups tend to completely evaporate once the "strong" leader dies, leaves, or stops playing. I can't even count how many times this has happened. When they leave so does the culture, history, heritage, and such.

4. Many players have a very difficult time limiting their PC's on Arm. Be it to a local area, or local business. Instead, because the opportunites arise, they go into many businesses, travel the world, and other such things. This helps keep the game changing, exciting and new for people, but it would quickly step outside the bounds of what most small groups might legitimately do.

I'm sure there are other things. I'm all for the general idea. But addressing some of these issues would be important, as well as some of the others voiced in the posts above.

[Agent_137]

So many good points on both sides.

A good balance might be just limiting the number of VNPCs in the clans. For instance, some clans might only have a small number of PCs but its total size is indifferent to that, because it's got tons of VNPCs.

[Rindan]

Drawing from a plethora of 'average' pcs in average places (almost all of mine), I can safely say that some of the most interesting and wholly intriguing events have occurred in these circumstances. I had one character who worked literally as a miner...

All of the things you describe could have just as easily happened with 'lower class' clans, and in fact would probably make more sense in that context.  I am not suggesting changing the types of conflict that exists, just the level where it exists.  Political intrigue, sweeping plots, and all of those things will not vanish, they would just move to a new level.  The advantage is that on this new level things make more sense.  The times when massive organization with unlimited resources (compared to your average PC) should land on top of individuals should be fairly rare.  More likely are for clans with more limited resources to take note of individuals and interfere with their lives.

I do disagree with the consequences being major and requiring massive planning and coding, but I can guess that you get this impression because those 'ends' are usually the ones most visable. A good plot is one that the players didn't know happened. An event that plays off so naturally that people didn't even really notice so to speak. And I'd say alot of those happen, but obviously they are excluded from mention.

Continuing off of the above... its a difficult position. When a plot effects a clan, usually everyone in the clan is either directly involved or effected. Their 'conflict/benefit' is right there. When we run plots involve commoners/those not in houses, its ALOT harder to get it as noticed, and sorta runs into the line of... just because you didn't hear or witness something doesn't mean its not happening. Going off your own theme sorta, there are either the massive plots/conflicts, think like HRPTs, or small ones that your character may or may not ever be involved in, but someone is.

I think you miss the crux of my argument here.  I don't want the size or number of clans to change, just which clans are represented.  Zalanthas has thousands of virtual clans and only a very small portion of them represented by players.  If it takes two clans with a total of 10 active players to make the deal sweet enough to sprinkle a little immortal magik, don't change that.  Just change where those 10 active players are.  I am not advocating more independents, just more people in normal clans.  Joining House Kadius or House Tor is exceptional, joining the Blood Runners mercenary bigarade or being a member of the commoner family of Darmore is not.  Don't change how many people you seek to reach, just what level the conflict is on.  Instead of having a conflict that effects House Tor, have it affect the extended commoner family of House Darmore.  Both are going to have five active PCs, the only difference is that one is more representative of the population.

I don't think this is nescessary because I don't think the problem is as large as your making it. Yes you personally might not be experiencing enough conflict to suit your tastes, but its very hard with limited staff members to make each and every player involved in something, and make that involvement exactly to their liking. Also there is no real IC justification for the sudden downsizing of virtual populations of houses that have existed for centuries.

I am not suggesting that the major clans suddenly vanish.  While they have existed for centuries, so have has the common hustle and bustle beneath them.  Just because this world is nearly non-existent in terms of PC representation does not mean it doesn't exists either.  The suggestion was to let these massive and powerful organizations be the Dues Ex Machinas that they are to normal people.  To a normal person, having a noble or merchant house breathing down their back is so rare as to be nearly unheard of.  Having the local street gang scum breathing down their neck on the other hand is completely reasonable.  Let PCs into the clans where it makes sense of have constant interaction, and leave the massive organizations to the imms to animate for the masses when needed (which I imagine would be rarely).

Further, I am not even suggesting entertaining all players, simply that the realm of conflict be moved into a more reasonable place.  Staff clans the same, just have the clans be different clans.  With the clans moving into a realm where people can interact with them they can naturally create their own stories more effectively.  Imm help of course is always welcomed, but your average Joe has a much easier time dealing with the fact that the street gang across the street is out to get him and finding a solution, then he does dealing with the fact that House Kurac is out to get him.

You go on to talk about your ideal world with smaller clans. And the only real thing I can offer is to make one of your own. I've seen your discussed 'survival conflict' in emerging clans, and its the reason some die out. I don't think that suggesting existing clans... or the overall clan scheme to be smaller really solves your problem. Many people, myself included, enjoy the anonymity and ambiguity(sp) of life in a large virtual clan. Its not a dead end though either. Yet at the same time there ARE small, struggling clans (so to speak). Most player run. From player run merchant organizations to mining/salt companies.

These player run organizations suffer from a few problem under the current system.  The largest being having to compete for warm bodies with clans with nearly unlimited resources.  The next being that they have no similar organizations to deal with, and so despite that there might be thousands of virtual organization like them, they still have to deal with the goliaths of the clan world.   The other problem is that they are not imm run clans and so lack a certain stability.  I am not advocating more player run organization, just a shift in imm run organization.  Player run organization are an entirely different beast then what I am talking about.

At the same time I can't really think of any way to add small clans like that. Obviously a clan would either be successful and grow out of their problems or fail and eventually either die out or break up due to the stagnation of a torrid life. Its a bit of a paradox thing... like how long would a, lets say modified Kuraci, clan of 20 last before eventually either becoming successful and not having to worry about food and water or failing to the point where no one wants to be a part of it.

There is a simple mechanism to deal with this problem of clans growing too big in influence.  Simply cap off how big they can virtually grow.  Take a commoner house for instance.  A commoner house will never be a noble house.  If they get too successful and influential what would realistically happen?  A noble house might very well step in and cap them off at the knees for acting above their station.  The magikal button to keep clans from getting too powerful rests soundly in the hands of the imms.  The Dues Ex Machinas that are the clans currently open would still be the power houses, just not where the PCs play.  They still are completely able and willing to defend their position.

To wrap it up, consider the world of Zalanthas. There are hundreds of thousands of people and thousands of clans.  What clans the imms choose to actively put PCs into is going to determine the nature of conflict.  If the only clans open were noble houses in Allanak, then the game would play much differently then if you could only be Gith or Mantis tribesmen.  Zalanthas is at its best and most unique when you cut out the cross section of the world that the vast majority of people live in.  Not the world of the nobles, wealthy, and well off, but the struggling bottom which makes up most of the world.  VNPCs and NPCs should be the ones controlling the noble houses, not the street thugs, average merchants, and average mercenaries.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

GOD is going to damn me for this, probably, but, uhm, Rindan is correct. I don't think anyone can actually argue against the logic here. Fuck mansa for prez. Rindan, in 2004.

The only obstacle here is the building some new clans would take, and the stories behind those clans. I absolutely love Kurac and Winrothol, but truthfully, 99% of the players shouldn't be playing in them. Being in a Noble House should be like being a Templar.

I am fully behind Rindan.

[EvilRoeSlade]

No!  This thread is too awesome to die so soon!

Finally, let me retort the response I know I am going to get.  Yes, I know that this is already happening to a greater or lesser extent in a certain area in the game.  Red Storm 0WnZ bitches, but I would like to see this expanded farther.  Allanak is still very much the land of silk where you do a double take if you see a city elf and pity the poor bastard because he will only ever deal with noble house servants and guards.

Let me address the part about city elves.  Right now, city elves are in a sad state.  Almost everybody in Allanak is simply too high and mitey to deal with them.  While this is ICly appropriate in some circumstances, it is far more widespread than it needs to be.  Additionally, racism is handled very poorly.  I appreciate the effort on the part of the playerbase, but I'd rather see a variety of reactions towards elves than simply ignoring them at all costs.

Right now, nobody needs to do anything but ignore a city elf and perhaps find a way to get them killed if they dare to attempt to start a conversation with you.  Why should they?  They have all the food and water they can eat, complimented by a monthly wage that they can save to buy whatever they want with.  It says on the very first page of the documentation that Zalanthas is a harsh world where competition for scarce resources is fierce.  But where is that competition?  I don't see any competition!  How can competition exist when it's so easy to get food and water without competition?

An elf is made for that low level competition.  Most of them will never interact meaningfully with anyone in a House uniform, and most of them possess skills specifically intended to make people's life hard.  Hell, they are a race of kleptomaniacs.  How depressing is it if your mercenary finally got enough coins to take a few days off, have a few drinks, and allow those injuries that never quite healed right to heal... only to find that his weapons are missing and he needs to spend all his surplus coins to replace them.

Half-giants are made for low-level competition as well.  How is a half-giant supposed to become involved in House Oash's plan to usurp House Borsail?  The only storyline they are likely to be involved in is one that involves physical violence.  So lets have it.  Give us gang wars and family feuds, give us smuggling, but above all, give us a struggle!

Let me point out right now that I don't give a shit about House Oash's attempts to usurp House Borsail.  You know why?  Because no matter how things play out, it's never going to happen, and if it does happen, it will happen because of events that have little or nothing to do with PCs.  The reason we are all stressing for small-scale conflict is because we want struggles that we can effect the outcome of.  We're still small people, and our actions still don't change the world in any appreciable way, but if we can't ever make a difference, there isn't any fun in it.

This doesn't involve magickally reducing the size of Houses.  We just change the playerbase, maybe encourage a few PCs that have been around a while to start small clans of their own.

In the end, perhaps there will only be one PC playing in Kurac.  He's an Agent in Allanak who's job is to secure the flow of spice smuggled into the city.  His actions draw in all sorts of unsavory characters and underworld figures, as well as a blue-robe of the Trade Ministry and his soldiers, who have been ordered to get proof of the Agent's doings, and then take him and his employees out.  There could be a single Borsail noble who's job is to maintain relations and business deals with slavers and bounty hunters, who reign in escaped slaves and capture exotic beasts for the House.  The game could benefit a lot from this very achievable shift in focus.

[creeper386]

I'm with Venomz. I hate to say it but I agree with Rindan in a way.

But the problem then would be, as I think some staff member mentioned it ... Is the PCs would be even more important. Right now, even if your in a noble house, you really don't mean much. Even if your fairly important Sargent or something, you can die and things go on. It makes things show that commoners or even the lower nobles don't really mean anything.


Creeper

[spawnloser]

That is a problem...but it isn't.  I have seen a PC noble rise to decent power within the noble house they were a member of.  By this, I mean that they were ranked within the top five nobles of that house.  That does mean that this noble was not a little, unimportant person...now, I do not know what that meant for that PC or how much actual influence over the day to day running of said noble house (political standing and such) but they were up there.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But the problem then would be, as I think some staff member mentioned it ... Is the PCs would be even more important. Right now, even if your in a noble house, you really don't mean much. Even if your fairly important Sargent or something, you can die and things go on. It makes things show that commoners or even the lower nobles don't really mean anything.Creeper

Being truthful, this is not a problem. You still have all the immortals, and they still run the NPC houses. Speaking realistically here, yes, the PCs would be important, to the PC world. But to obtain that big world feeling, let's make Senate outcomes more public. Let's make those Houses which would be doing something more often, do something more often. Lets see big houses rise up to crush the upsurping PC house. Let's hear of more big world stuff, things that the PC is simply incapable of being involved in due to their small stature.

THis, of course, does not mean that the PC is unimportant. But it does mean that the PC is small. Yeah, he might bring his little House to fight alongside Tor to defend against a raid, but, uhm, so what? He brought 8 PCs and four ten-squares of soldiers. Tor brought 10 100-squares of soldiers. Ass out. Yet, and still, the PC is having an impact on the world. Just not much, and just like it is currently.

This does not disable PCs from shaping the world. It enables the small-scale conflict, the meat and potatoes of the world. Currently, most PCs play the fluff. Where the fuck is the meat and potatoes?

Once more, there is no way to argue against the logic of Rindan's idea. He is right, and that is all.

[spawnloser]

Venomz, you're not touching on the problem that the PCs are too important to the clan...if a PC screws up too much, their clan is dead.  Dead dead dead.  Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted.  The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

[Kankman]

Venomz, you're not touching on the problem that the PCs are too important to the clan...if a PC screws up too much, their clan is dead.  Dead dead dead.

I think this entire concept is skewed. The purpose as I can see it here, would be to make it really matter if said PC died. Because then the clan would possibly be screwed and dissolve. It isn't necessary for immortal sponsorship to make the changes mentioned. If more players played the common men and women of the world, that's where the "focus" would be.

It is a problem I have witnessed in the past, that it is actually hard to avoid being recruited into a formal House when people are actively searching for someone like you. A good source of action to counter the scenario is ugliness and abrasiveness. If you are ugly, dirty, smelly and or foul, illmannered, slur-speeched, stuttery and otherwise can't keep your finger out of your nose, ear, or pants, you won't be a target of Noble or Merchant-like recruiters. If people aim to play Rindan's suggested roles then we have them.

Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted.  The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

Exactly.

Immortals are great and all, but in my opinion its more fun to play a character that gets up to all kinds of stuff and doesn't have to email an immortal for permission, or assistance. There's plenty to do without hassling staff. In fact I don't think Rindan's suggestions require any sort of immortal intervention. Those of you who think it sounds good, do it. Those of you who don't, won't.[/i]

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...the PCs are too important to the clan...if a PC screws up too much, their clan is dead.  Dead dead dead.

It should be! At this level, you could assume that 'companies' would come and go. Think about that Mom and Pop's store on the corner. What if one of them die, or both? What about that novelty store down the block? Only open for five years, providing business to the hood? These aren't McDonalds' and In 'n Out's. These businesses are the Mexican burrito stands, the independant car repair shops, the curbside flower koisks.

Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted.  The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

The last time that I suggested this sort of idea, I suggested that clans not be Immortal sponsored, but rather Immortal assisted. This way, time is not lost so much, not any more than the time wasted when an Immortal makes a tattoo for a character... Items could be recycled for various houses. Technically, so could those minature compounds and such. This would also further the feeling of struggle, when you must do more for your clan than you currently must.

Change the structure of clans. A good player could set up his clan to operate without him for a good amount of time. With more than one leader, other folks would step up if one leader died. The house just might stay above water...or it might not.

[spawnloser]

Well, personally, if the clans will have no immortal support, count me out.

Now, the problem with the 'if you wanna, do it, if you don't, don't,' attitude: if some people don't want to go to an immortal free, little guy clan system and some do, we'll have twice as many clans...with the player base spread even thinner.  This will not work.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, personally, if the clans will have no immortal support, count me out.

Spawnloser...man. Read.

...clans not be Immortal sponsored, but rather Immortal assisted.

?

[spawnloser]

What does assisted mean, really?  I'm happier with a clan that will last past one character's lifespan.  I have more faith in the staff to keep key figures alive so that a clan doesn't die (except where as appropriate, of course) than my fellow players.

[Carnage]

Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted. The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

Huh?

How is the time wasted? It's a game. You play it to have fun. Was Thrain Ironsword's semi-failed assault a waste of time since it didn't succeed? Was J'karr a waste of time because it's not around anymore? If Armageddon closes (which it one day inevitably will), does that make the entire game a waste of time? No. Just because something doesn't succeed (and playing out that can be entertaining) doesn't make it a waste of time.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

What does assisted mean, really?  I'm happier with a clan that will last past one character's lifespan.  I have more faith in the staff to keep key figures alive so that a clan doesn't die (except where as appropriate, of course) than my fellow players.

Of course you have faith in the staff to keep the clans alive. The key figures are NPCs, and they respawn. My point is that keeping a clan alive past the lifespan of the character creates a struggle, and it's that struggle which livens the game.

By assisted I mean things such as; Maybe making a cloak that you can't craft, but which ICly you could...with a logo on the back or whatever. Maybe animating a gith raid on your clan. Perhaps animating a Tor noble to talk to you, for whatever reason. Keeping tabs on your players, without guiding the clan itself. In short, the leader or leaders of the clan might be considered priests, while the Immortals simply watch over the priests' actions. Maybe the Immortal could offer advice via IC or OOC means, but they would not LEAD the clan...players would make ALL the final descisions, in the context of the world, of course. Yes, this might mean they'll be crushed, but, that's the way of a hard world like Zalanthas.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I've put off reading this entire thread until now, but here is my say.

I've seen these smaller, player-run clans in the past.  The small time conflict did happen.  We are on our way back to that now, at least in 'Nak (I'm not sure about the current state of things in Tuluk).  I would say that over the next 6-9 RL months, you will start to see more prominent Player-Run groups in the cities, the type of conflict you are looking for will occur, just be patient.  Doing what you can will help it along.

What killed it last time?  The playerbase became too spread out.  These groups were unable to survive, so new characters started joining the major Houses, rather than the smaller groups, thus thinning out the playerbase even more.

As the playerbase consolidates and confines itself into smaller areas, and the major Houses become either closed or not hiring quite as many PCs, or as was mentioned above, becomming pickier about who they hire, the player groups will form for survival.  It has happened in the past, it will happen again in the future.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

How is the time wasted? It's a game. You play it to have fun. Was Thrain Ironsword's semi-failed assault a waste of time since it didn't succeed? Was J'karr a waste of time because it's not around anymore? If Armageddon closes (which it one day inevitably will), does that make the entire game a waste of time? No. Just because something doesn't succeed (and playing out that can be entertaining) doesn't make it a waste of time.

Carnage, well said.

[Gilvar]

The quote about the journey not the destination comes to mind, but I have no idea who said it or how.

[Gorobei]

The quote about the journey not the destination comes to mind, but I have no idea who said it or how.

I think it was Master Splinter.

[Anonymous]

My point is that keeping a clan alive past the lifespan of the character creates a struggle, and it's that struggle which livens the game.

Yep.

[Realedazed]

I've read over this thread and I think some Player Run orgs would add another great twist to the game.  Since players would have more options to choose for, it may bring in some added RP.  For example, since it's been said in a previous post that if newer players joined the Noble houses, then the pool of players available to join player ran clans would be small. Now, this will create room for double-agents, competion for the remaining people, death or other threats to a person if he dhould even be seen talking to a recruiting officer for another clan, etc.  I would have came up with more ideas, but I'm sleepy.  Anways, I think you call can see where I'm going with this.

But heck, this may be going on now. I'm just a newbie, what do I know. :wink:

[EvilRoeSlade]

Venomz, you're not touching on the problem that the PCs are too important to the clan...if a PC screws up too much, their clan is dead.  Dead dead dead.  Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted.  The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

This would be a problem at first, but I believe that it would slowly begin to solve itself.  The staff would figure out who can keep their clan alive, and who can't.  The people that can keep their clan alive, would gradually cycle into positions of power.  Eventually we'd reach a happy level where clans are only killed, or damaged so much that they are closed to PCs, due to important, realistic actions of PCs or NPCs.

[spawnloser]

How is the time wasted? It's a game. You play it to have fun. Was Thrain Ironsword's semi-failed assault a waste of time since it didn't succeed? Was J'karr a waste of time because it's not around anymore? If Armageddon closes (which it one day inevitably will), does that make the entire game a waste of time? No. Just because something doesn't succeed (and playing out that can be entertaining) doesn't make it a waste of time.

You have obviously missed my point.  Making docs or buildings or...anything...that is no longer going to ever be used is time that could have been spent on something that will benefit the entire mud in the long term.  I'm not saying I'm against player run, smaller sized organizations...I'm just saying I don't want to create more work for the staff when there are more than plenty things they already have to deal with.

[Carnage]

You have obviously missed my point.

I haven't missed anything. You're just trying to cover up your own mistakes right now.

Making docs or buildings or...anything...that is no longer going to ever be used is time that could have been spent on something that will benefit the entire mud in the long term.

Okay. Who says that it's never ever going to benefit the MUD again? Who says it won't give inspiration to other characters or organizations? Hell, the T'zai Byn was inactive/dead for a bit if I recall correctly, but look at them now.

I'm not saying I'm against player run, smaller sized organizations...I'm just saying I don't want to create more work for the staff when there are more than plenty things they already have to deal with.

If it's player-run, wouldn't the players be doing all the work of creating the documents and writing up the rooms and such?

[spawnloser]

Actually, Carnage, if you got my point, you wouldn't be arguing with me...that or you're just trying to pick a fight.  You can pick whichever of these options you would like.

Sure, the players may do all the work, but for any clan, there will need to be staff involved at some point.  Well, not necessarily, but if there is no immortal involved with a clan, even to informally sponsor it (by saying it's okay and to keep an eye on the clan), I don't really want much to do with it.  I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

[Quirk]

I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

The staff are likely to approve the initial premise of the clan much as they approve character backgrounds. If it's a player-run clan, however, a change from what it was originally intended to be may be perfectly in keeping with circumstances - and to a large extent that's up to the players running it to decide, much as it's within players' prerogatives to decide how to play their characters. If these changes are wildly out of order, the staff may deliver something of a nudge, but that doesn't mean they necessarily have to keep a close eye on the tedious business of running it day to day. I can think of one or two instances of this sort of change with a certain desert elf tribe that was initially run entirely by players and eventually gained a level of imm support. I believe that the bringing of that clan into existence and building it into a position of strength improved the game far more than the actions of almost any House noble I have heard of.

What you seem to be arguing, spawnloser, is that the clans players belong to should not be vulnerable to destruction or dissolution. I've played in far more static environments than Armageddon, and I'm afraid I cannot agree that that leads to the best intrigue, the most enjoyable gameplay, or the best RP. If docs made for a clan last only until the clan's destruction six months down the line, the docs are not valueless. They are a valid record of what the clan was like in its heyday and provide possible inspiration for future clans. I'd love particularly to see documentation for such small clans as publically meet their demise to be made available so people creating new characters could reference them in their background if they wished.

That said, samsara did make a very good point a page or two back - too often such small clan conflicts descend into an orgy of violence. Even if players begin imaginatively with character assassinations, bribing templars to make hassle for the other side, etc, sooner or later someone with a short fuse will decree that everyone working for the opposition must die. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of that level of conflict injected into the game even at that - in certain parts of the gameworld organised and comprehensive movements to hurt the interests of other organisations are rare. I think this is largely because most of the Houses, Noble and Merchant, have predefined attitudes to the other Houses that exist on levels PCs cannot usually access, and these attitudes usually stop well short of discreetly waging an undercover war.

I would rather have a collection of brilliant, active, intrigue-riddled small clans of commoners struggling to survive down at a social level where dealing with elves and half-elves is not unthinkable than our current collection of mostly mediocre Houses coddling characters into a ripe and dull old age. As it stands, no matter how low-class a human character you try to make, you are very nearly forced into dealing with Noble Houses and rich people, simply because that is where a huge proportion of the playerbase is currently. The harshness is gradually draining out of the world; long-lived characters are becoming more the norm than the exception.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life.  It's a joyous thing, really.

Now...to address the points you brought up.  As far as changing, I'm talking about change in a bad way.  As in, something that the staff would disapprove of.  Growth and change are fine, but only as long as it is IC and isn't a sudden 180 degree switch that noone knows about except the jackasses in the clan because no IMM is keeping any tabs on the clan.  I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

[Quirk]

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life.  It's a joyous thing, really.

Yes, I have. I've performed some of those assassinations and ordered others. I'm well aware of the trouble that nobles can get in if they assassinate someone in another House without permission of their NPC or VNPC superiors, and I'm well aware of the resulting somewhat insipid tension that exists between the big Houses over a period with its occasional breaks and the consequences that follow. Don't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about here. You can point to those few and far between assassinations, you can claim what you like about the tissues of lies woven by those in power, but they are nothing like "war". I happen to like those conflicts where they arise, but I'm not going to pretend they're fine depictions of the harshness of Zalanthas. That you feel the way you do suggests to me that you've spent too long in Houses with characters who needed neither to worry about food or water, but I could be wrong.

I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

Well, the imms keep some sort of tabs on the actions of most PCs anyway to ensure their RP remains realistic; I don't see the level of interest taken needing to be greatly more than that. This appears an utter non-issue from my standpoint.

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

I'm not sure how to respond to this without seeming a little patronising, so please forgive me in advance if I do. You will always be at the mercy of what other players decide to do. If you're a noble or high-ranking aide in a Noble House and another noble is approved who blithely and clumsily destroys good relationships with others that it took you time to build or causes damage to the clan in some other way, there is little response you can make on the spot except to rage at them in private. Within the limited scope of power you currently have if playing a noble, almost all your work can be undone given an ally of sufficient stupidity. In a smaller clan where there is more power in the hands of the players, if someone in that clan does something remarkably harmful to its interests you also have more power to deal with them, not having to worry the same way about how your superiors will regard a quick or brutal solution. What really is the difference between having the efforts of your noble or aide undone (and many, many aides have seen all they've worked for undone on the ascendance of a new noble) and someone else's stupidity threatening to damage your commoner's clan?

If you're thinking of this on a documentation basis, you could apply exactly the same argument to Arm's permadeath. Someone else's stupidity can easily kill your character, and all the effort you put into writing up their background and describing them is lost. Should we do away with permadeath, then, so people aren't forced to make that effort? No. RPing without permadeath becomes artificial; there is no real harshness to the world.

Quirk

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life...

I am sure that folks will maintain this style of aperation as well, because many times, the leading PC will be afraid of losing their clan if they were to lose a war of violence. I know I would.

...sudden 180 degree switch that noone knows about except the jackasses in the clan because no IMM is keeping any tabs on the clan.  I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

I think I said Immortal assisted. This would be part of that assistance. Cool?

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you (Quirk) said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...

What would you define as stupidity? I mean, seriously, what? By their 'war'? I think wars between clans should be much more commonplace than they are now. I think that many times folks will refrain from outright violence, but I most certianly could see mercenary clans clashing, or assassins from Commoner House Kliad killing the leader of Commoner House J'lain. Of course, if that House J'lain has a good leader, then his death will not mean the end of the clan...if it doesn't, then that does mean the end of that House, as is realistic.

...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

If the focus of staff involvement deviates from the Houses as they are now, a few more Immortals are brought on board, and the only things they have to worry about are their projects and watching, but not running, these small clans, I don't see where the extra work would come from. But maybe you are staff. Maybe you know.

[spawnloser]

Cool?

Yes.  Actually, I kinda thought you would have gotten that.  I'm not fully opposed to the idea...I just want IMM involvement and okay.

What would you define as supidity?

Something that was decided upon for OOC reasons because the player didn't know any better is a good example.  If you hadn't figured this one out, I have little faith in my fellow humans...and many people will probably end up playing characters that are smarter than they are in real life.  This throws an interesting wrench in the works.  Having an Immortal to help with some things could prevent some things from happening that really shouldn't.

If the focus of staff involvement deviates from the Houses as they are now, a few more Immortals are brought on board, and the only things they have to worry about are their projects and watching, but not running, these small clans, I don't see where the extra work would come from.

See, the problem with this is that you're assuming that the work:staff ration will stay the same...if more work appears, the staff will grow larger so that no staff member has any more work.  At least it seems as such.  Who is to say that that would happen immediately?

[Carnage]

Actually, Carnage, if you got my point, you wouldn't be arguing with me...that or you're just trying to pick a fight.  You can pick whichever of these options you would like.

Seems to me you're the one trying to pick a fight by dodging around the issues at hand and trying to go directly at me by saying I've misunderstood or haven't read your post.

Sure, the players may do all the work, but for any clan, there will need to be staff involved at some point.  Well, not necessarily, but if there is no immortal involved with a clan, even to informally sponsor it (by saying it's okay and to keep an eye on the clan), I don't really want much to do with it.  I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

Okay. You failed to address this part of my post, however, which is once again my response:

Who says that it's never ever going to benefit the MUD again? Who says it won't give inspiration to other characters or organizations? Hell, the T'zai Byn was inactive/dead for a bit if I recall correctly, but look at them now.

Edit:

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war. Assassinations and disinformation. Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life. It's a joyous thing, really.

You're really full of yourself, aren't you?

[spawnloser]

First, you are making personal attacks by calling me full of myself.  I'm saying that you don't appear to be listening or understanding what I'm trying to say, so I continue trying to explain it to you so that you do.

Now...seriously, I have addressed things that explain my view on situations just like you have listed above.  For the sake of ease, I will reiterate...

Good, great, someone was inspired...I'm happy.  Really, I am.  That is one person...or a few people.  It might influence the greater portion of the mud...but then again, it very likely will not.  How many player-run clans have sprung up and died over the years?  Hell, I know of about a dozen in the last year.  Who will remember them in another year?  Probably noone.  That's not longterm.

You know, I like that someone can aspire to greatness and actually make it.  Without some of the clans about, for ANYONE to get anywhere near the fame/influence that some 'Normal Joe' PCs have risen to, there would need to be heavy Immortal support.  The way it is right now, that isn't necessarily required...because some of what would need to be done by IMMs is in the hands of PCs that the IMMs trust...but from everything that has been said above, everyone wants to shut those clans down for being too 'upscale' and not gritty and low end of the social ladder enough.

Screw y'all, I'm content with the clan set up the way it is.  You want a player-run clan...go right ahead.  Talk to the IMMs about it.  Whatever.  Have fun.  I'm just saying that I'm fine where I am with my current role in the clan he is in.

[Carnage]

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/clans/

Obviously, if the immortals of the game were dead-set against player-created clans, they wouldn't make up this file which helps encourage them.

[Rindan]

I think this topic took a large turn far away from the original point.  People are missing that there is a difference between clan organization, and the level the clan is being played it.

Clan organization is how the clan is structured, regardless if it is a small time mercenary outfit or large merchant house.  What a lot of people are getting hung up on is the actual structure.  If you strip away the IC titles and the IC background, you have a hierarchy of how decisions are made, in that hierarchy you have imms and PCs.  All clans have this sort of hierarchy.  I don't suggest touching the hierarchy much.  

In my ideal world, the commoner family Barduk that has maybe a 100 or so virtual family members who keep a reasonable amount of contact with each other would have roughly the same OOC structure as House Oash.  At the top you have imms who have a large say in direction and can basically veto any player efforts that they find out of line or unreasonable, then you have would your trusted 9 karma players providing day to day stability and order, then the regular round of PC middle men who managed individual men, and on the bottom you have PCs that basically can show up at the door and sign up without an imm doing anything more exciting then making a note that they joined and giving them board access.

Now, despite the fact that the actual hierarchy doesn't change, I think a lot of other things would.  The first and most obvious change would be that player run clans would suddenly become more viable.  Because the scale of conflict has dropped down a few notches player run clans no longer have to swim with giants and rightfully do not attract the attention of giants until it is realistic for them to do so.  

Take for instance a spice smuggling operation.  In the world of giants a small time spice runner will be crushed by Kurac.  The local PC Kuraci will be bored for things to do, see a player run operation, and make it his life's goal to crush it.  In the long run, Kurac is going to win.  In the world I envision this spice smuggling operation would likely never deal with Kurac.  They would deal with many other people operating at the same level, but the giants would keep their distance so long as they don't rise too high.  If they rise too high, then the imms can animate Kurac into life and cut them back down to an appropriate size.  In this manner, player run clans are encouraged because they will be allowed to operate with and against organization that are more their size.

In an example more close to a home, a player run city elf tribe would suddenly be much more viable.  Instead of only dealing with the rich and wealthy, the tribe would have commoners on the same level as themselves to deal with.

I am suggesting keeping the stability and the direction of imm run clans, but just dropping down the level where they exist.   Imm run clans would be just as stable as they are today.  I imagine the imms would have a lot more breathing room to make plots and story lines.  If the world is focused on small scale clans, then if an imm decides to kill off a clan for the sake of an interesting plot, the imm can do so without feeling like he/she is ravaging the world.  Killing off House Kurac would be a big deal.  Killing off the commoner family Barduk, while a big deal for the Allanaki commons and anyone involved, is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.  The world would feel a little more dynamic and allow for more flexibility.  The imms very well could allow a clan to be killed off every year just to keep things dynamic, but they wouldn't have to.  There is no greater or lesser danger in clans being destroyed through stupidity simply because while the clans are smaller, so is the power they are wielding, and when it comes down to an imm always holds the veto vote.

The effect of moving imm run clans from massive noble houses and merchant houses to smaller in terms of its virtual size is that the environment is more conducive to PC initiative, especially on the part of people not directly a member of imm run organization.  This isn't some new and crazy way of running clans or changing how much control imms have in them, it is simply shifting the focus of the game for PCs away from massive organization to a scale that is more appreciable to the average Allanaki commoner.

Don't change the hierarchy, just the clans being supported.

[spawnloser]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me.  I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want.  I just said to fucking include the staff.  I'm done with this discussion.  I'm tired of y'all.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me.  I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want.  I just said to fucking include the staff.  I'm done with this discussion.  I'm tired of y'all.

The discussion isn't even about players starting their own clans, although it is about creating an environment where that is more possible to do.

What it is about is an appeal the staff to shift their resources from large-scale clans to small-scale ones.

It just isn't going to happen without the staff backing it up.

[spawnloser]

ERS, I understand this...a while back someone said to just start up your own lower status clan, I simply said to include the staff or I for one would not want to be involved.  Carnage decided that I was wrong.

[Carnage]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me. I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want. I just said to fucking include the staff. I'm done with this discussion. I'm tired of y'all.

[Gesht]

- - I'm tired and irritable. This post will jump around, but it does cover side-topics related to lesser clans. Lesser clans, pkilling, and Trigonometry. All of which are important for conflict (particularly Trig). Anyhow, please excuse the unusual level of sloppiness and cursing for the fact I've not slept in 31 hours.



- - I personally like the idea of seeing a lot more middle class and lower class, player-driven clans. The main difference between myself and most people in Arm is that I feel there should be a lot more pkilling and people just plain being bastards to one another. As it stands, you're more likely to be killed by an NPC (under nearly any conditions/or setting) than a PC. Believe it or not, this is not a fault of the code but of the players. I don't like this.

- - As a bit of an experiment, and because I am evil, I planted the seeds conflict in Red Storm Village a few months ago. They have yet to blossum, but I have no doubt they will. I actually got the idea off of something Rindan suggested about making it possible for independent crafters to make a living in Red Storm. In any event, I foresee a good deal of IC-inspired, player-driven violence and maybe a couple extremely tiny clans. I personally take a hands-off approach to immortalling (it's a word now because I say so) and believe in giving players just enough to push their own plots along.

- - I'm afraid I've gotten off-subject, so let me try to refocus. You don't need an Imm for your clan. The more your clan depends on an Imm, the less players will have a role in it. An Imm, no matter how good, is a bottleneck. I'm not saying this to knock my fellow Imms. Simply put, if only one person can make the final decision, that decision cannot be made until they get around to it. Imms aren't online 24/7, staring at their monitor with a dull expression, hoping for a question to answer to break up the monotony of their miserable lives. Quite the opposite, most Imms are pressed for time. As I am typing this, I should be doing Trigonometry homework so I'll be prepared for the exam I have in 11 hours. Holy shit, I only have 11 hours left?

- - More player control means more of all the good things. Muscling independents, brutalzing competition, nepotism, favoritism, abuse of power, and total chaos in the streets. The Country Kitchen Buffet of conflict that a harsh world is supposed to have. When you take your importance down a few notches, interclan politics are a lot less cumbersome. Hiring independent arms also makes a lot more sense, and a Yojimbo/Man With No Name character could make a killing (figuratively and literally). Since you can act quickly on information, having spies is more meaningful. Small businesses are always the greatest employers.

- - Obviously, my suggestion is, make your own clan (or these lesser clans), where your playerbase is the driving force of all decisions. Do so and the gameplay will always flow, conflict will always feel real, and your membership will mean something. Imm assistance is good, but really... write your own docs, clean your own house. If someone in your clan makes bad decisions, unite the other members and get rid of them. ICly. As it is, I feel a good number of the playerbase has become rather smug ICly. This is, in my opinion, due to the fact their clan involvement makes them harder to take out than the should be. Other people of the same rank, in that clan or another, still have to seek approval. Then politics come into play... well, everything goes downhill from there.

- - On the other hand, less significant clans would be able to react appropriately and immediately. If the answer was to bribe a templar, you might start selling clan furniture to make sure you had enough black in your palm-greasing account. If the answer was kill them, maybe start sparring and reviewing escape routes. Stop being so damned concerned about karma. Role play as if you were a role player: If someone gives your PC a good reason to kill them, KILL THEM.

- - Karma is not supposed to be a goal. To quote the docs...

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself.

- - If one of your clan members or enemies needs to die, try to kill the little shit. Put a price on their head, poison them, blow them up, knock their asses out and feed them to a mek. Stop letting fear of being misunderstood by the staff OOCly screw up your RP. You aren't here to earn karma, you're here to role play. I can't seem to put what I am getting at into essay format, so let me just spread out my remaining, jumbled points...

* If your entire small clan is forced to put a hit out on a templar in order to stay IC, it doesn't matter if you succeed.

* If your entire small clan is brutally wiped out for staying IC, it doesn't matter how much effort you used in recruiting, training, and struggling for survival.

* If your entire, 3 year old small clan is obliterated from the scrolls of history, to the extent mentioning your name was punishable by death, it doesn't matter how much you'll miss it.

* If your clan lasts until the day Arm is no more (following the APM stuck by a plummeting satellite, killing all of the staff and most of the playerbase), your group's IC-survival doesn't matter.

- - Enjoyed what happenned, as a result of staying in character, is all that ever matters in the game. Fuck survival. You're supposed to be role playing.


The dust cloud has spoken, albeit in a broken manner.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Good bloody hell. I like this mothafucka Gesht.

I suspect that after I have fulfilled my commitment to myself with my current project, I will be contributing to your cause. To be sure, every single thing he said was right on point as far as I am concerned.

But the question then arises...do the other immortals concur? Because if they don't, then we have a problem.

[spawnloser]

Well, I can say that I agree with Gesht on one general principle...too many PC deaths are to NPCs.  There should be a higher percentage of PC deaths to fellow PCs.  Unfortunately, I can also say that some immortals do seem reluctant to authorize PK by their clannies.

[Krath]

Good bloody hell. I like this mothafucka Gesht.

I suspect that after I have fulfilled my commitment to myself with my current project, I will be contributing to your cause. To be sure, every single thing he said was right on point as far as I am concerned.

But the question then arises...do the other immortals concur? Because if they don't, then we have a problem.

What he said.

[Carnage]

Unfortunately, I can also say that some immortals do seem reluctant to authorize PK by their clannies.

What?

I've never, EVER had to go to an immortal for them to 'authorize' a PK. I've e-mailed the clan immortal and told them what I was planning on doing, and they gave their input about it (one of my imms was a real glutton for plots) but they never ever tried to be in a position where they would say "No, sorry, you can't do this" and force-feed decisions to me.

[Lazloth]

It does happen though.  I imagine the reference is to a decision or planned activity being overriden at the senior [v/npc] level.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What?

I've never, EVER had to go to an immortal for them to 'authorize' a PK. I've e-mailed the clan immortal and told them what I was planning on doing, and they gave their input about it (one of my imms was a real glutton for plots) but they never ever tried to be in a position where they would say "No, sorry, you can't do this" and force-feed decisions to me.

I want to know what clan you're playing, since this discussion reminds me of playing a templar and being shot in the foot everytime I wanted to kill someone.  Out of three times in which I planned secret assassinations, I was stopped once to prevent infighting (so I understand the reasons) but on the other two I just got lame "we can't harm our relations with clan X by secretly offing grunt Y" speeches from the Reds.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, ERS...my biggest issue is that I'm a member of Clan A whose rival is Clan B but I was told not to assassinate member of Clan B.  It just...didn't quite make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Carnage]

I want to know what clan you're playing, since this discussion reminds me of playing a templar and being shot in the foot everytime I wanted to kill someone. Out of three times in which I planned secret assassinations, I was stopped once to prevent infighting (so I understand the reasons) but on the other two I just got lame "we can't harm our relations with clan X by secretly offing grunt Y" speeches from the Reds.

I'd rather not say, as it'd give away who I've played but I'll give another example: about a year or so ago though, I e-mailed Vendyra with a plan to kill another clanmate and she was fine with it and just replied back with making sure to be aware of everything I was doing and so forth. The other two imms I was recently under (at separate times) were both okay and happy that there was conflict and so forth. I've never gotten a no answer.

If you wanted to, you probably could have secretly killed those people. You would have been in IC trouble, but did your imm ever come down and give you a flat out OOC no?

[Quirk]

I'd rather not say, as it'd give away who I've played but I'll give another example: about a year or so ago though, I e-mailed Vendyra with a plan to kill another clanmate and she was fine with it and just replied back with making sure to be aware of everything I was doing and so forth. The other two imms I was recently under (at separate times) were both okay and happy that there was conflict and so forth. I've never gotten a no answer.

If you wanted to, you probably could have secretly killed those people. You would have been in IC trouble, but did your imm ever come down and give you a flat out OOC no?

I think wires are crossed somewhere. I believe you're referring to internal conflicts between clan members, whereas everyone else in this thread has been referring to the restrictions placed on those leading a clan when it comes to assassinating members of other important clans, given that NPC/VNPC superiors tend to grow upset over incidents likely to have a significant impact on inter-House relations.

Quirk

[Carnage]

I think wires are crossed somewhere. I believe you're referring to internal conflicts between clan members, whereas everyone else in this thread has been referring to the restrictions placed on those leading a clan when it comes to assassinating members of other important clans, given that NPC/VNPC superiors tend to grow upset over incidents likely to have a significant impact on inter-House relations.

Nope, I'm referring to both. The example I cited was within the house, the rest were outside.

[Kalden]

You guys are derailing the thread, which is hard enough to follow as it is.

The first thing is that there is a small player clan that should have been started long ago: a city elf tribe. There have been a few, I'm sure, but that's the easiest place to start. There are a couple reasons for this:

Income. It's a hard thing when you're independent. Elves love to steal. That leaves you a good IC way to make money, and lots of it. You can also do crafting.

Crime and plots. Elves are always plotting, so it's easy to get involved in interesting criminal plots. Assassinations, spice dealing, pissed off customers... all that.

As it is, it sounds like people are pushing more for human gangs, which, while they sound interesting, would be hard to play. I like the idea, though. Maybe I'll add some more creative input later.

[Quirk]

As it is, it sounds like people are pushing more for human gangs, which, while they sound interesting, would be hard to play. I like the idea, though. Maybe I'll add some more creative input later.

"Gangs" isn't the word I'd use. I think this is mainly about non-criminal organisations analogous to the Houses but operating much lower down the social scale.

Quirk

[Kalden]

Gangs are the most apt term.

Consider this:

And so it appeared to have been: with merchants murdered in the night and secret dealings in dark alleys, much of the Allanaki economy has moved underground, the result being that many more honest merchants have been driven out of business, and the general prosperity has declined.

And this:

Strangely enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone underground.

It's very difficult for the "average" commoner to make a living. Crime is very common. A family of commoners would band together. Thugs would be necessary to protect any crafters from the evil Merchant Houses.

I've always thought that the family bonds between humans should be emphasized more. The only people you can really trust are your blood relatives. Hell... the Guild should be lead by a it's own House, as a mockery of the Merchant Houses. Godfather mafia sort of shit. But that's branching off into another topic.

[Quirk]

We are not, however, just talking about 'Nak here. As a side note, I would very much like to see that portion of the docs paid attention to - I've run into fairly old and experienced characters in game who claim that the 'Rinth is simply a den of thieves, and flat-out denied the idea of "the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized business contracts are negotiated". Of course, most 'Nak PCs are too high-class or too low-class to fit this model, but that doesn't mean the VNPCs aren't wheeling and dealing in the slums.

A merchant or merchant family would be well advised to have guards wherever they do business, but I wouldn't see them as "gangs", particularly not in Tuluk. The main aim of the guards would be to protect the business, not to make a living through theft and violence, as I'd see a "gang" doing.

Thugs would be necessary to protect any crafters from the evil Merchant Houses.

The Merchant Houses won't even register the existence of a band of crafters until they're taking up enough of the market to be a threat. The current situation where a Merchant House PC will out of boredom attempt to have some PC crafter or crafters dispatched for working in the same field is highly improbable. If they do get to the size that they're deemed worthy of notice, they'd need to have a small army of guards to be safe from the Merchant Houses' attempts to destroy them.

Quirk

[EvilRoeSlade]

The first thing is that there is a small player clan that should have been started long ago: a city elf tribe. There have been a few, I'm sure, but that's the easiest place to start. There are a couple reasons for this:

I disagree with that.  A city elf tribe isn't the easiest place to start in my opinion.  It's one of those niches that just won't be able to exist while every character in the game is either in a noble house, a merchant house, or the Atrium.

Income. It's a hard thing when you're independent. Elves love to steal. That leaves you a good IC way to make money, and lots of it. You can also do crafting.

Thieving is very tricky.  People will overreact to it.  People will use OOC information to decide that you're the thief (if you're the only elf/PC not decked out in House armor, for instance).  People will automatically blame an elf for being the thief, ignoring large virtual populations of elves.  From my experience, PCs in noble houses are especially likely to do this.

Crime and plots. Elves are always plotting, so it's easy to get involved in interesting criminal plots. Assassinations, spice dealing, pissed off customers... all that.

Nobodies going to want to hire you when they have their all-mighty (human) House Guards to pull off their waxings.  A similar situation exists for spice.  As it stands now, there is a very limited amount of people that a city elf can have meaningful interaction with.

I'm not trying to shoot down your aspirations, all I want to do is point out that if all that comes of this conversation is a few people trying to form their own clans, in the end nothing will change.  A small-scale clan just can't survive in the land of silk and House armor.  For anything to change, we at least need the blessings of staff members.