Lots of Conflict on a Small Scale

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

What does assisted mean, really?  I'm happier with a clan that will last past one character's lifespan.  I have more faith in the staff to keep key figures alive so that a clan doesn't die (except where as appropriate, of course) than my fellow players.

Of course you have faith in the staff to keep the clans alive. The key figures are NPCs, and they respawn. My point is that keeping a clan alive past the lifespan of the character creates a struggle, and it's that struggle which livens the game.

By assisted I mean things such as; Maybe making a cloak that you can't craft, but which ICly you could...with a logo on the back or whatever. Maybe animating a gith raid on your clan. Perhaps animating a Tor noble to talk to you, for whatever reason. Keeping tabs on your players, without guiding the clan itself. In short, the leader or leaders of the clan might be considered priests, while the Immortals simply watch over the priests' actions. Maybe the Immortal could offer advice via IC or OOC means, but they would not LEAD the clan...players would make ALL the final descisions, in the context of the world, of course. Yes, this might mean they'll be crushed, but, that's the way of a hard world like Zalanthas.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I've put off reading this entire thread until now, but here is my say.

I've seen these smaller, player-run clans in the past.  The small time conflict did happen.  We are on our way back to that now, at least in 'Nak (I'm not sure about the current state of things in Tuluk).  I would say that over the next 6-9 RL months, you will start to see more prominent Player-Run groups in the cities, the type of conflict you are looking for will occur, just be patient.  Doing what you can will help it along.

What killed it last time?  The playerbase became too spread out.  These groups were unable to survive, so new characters started joining the major Houses, rather than the smaller groups, thus thinning out the playerbase even more.

As the playerbase consolidates and confines itself into smaller areas, and the major Houses become either closed or not hiring quite as many PCs, or as was mentioned above, becomming pickier about who they hire, the player groups will form for survival.  It has happened in the past, it will happen again in the future.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

How is the time wasted? It's a game. You play it to have fun. Was Thrain Ironsword's semi-failed assault a waste of time since it didn't succeed? Was J'karr a waste of time because it's not around anymore? If Armageddon closes (which it one day inevitably will), does that make the entire game a waste of time? No. Just because something doesn't succeed (and playing out that can be entertaining) doesn't make it a waste of time.

Carnage, well said.

[Gilvar]

The quote about the journey not the destination comes to mind, but I have no idea who said it or how.

[Gorobei]

The quote about the journey not the destination comes to mind, but I have no idea who said it or how.

I think it was Master Splinter.

[Anonymous]

My point is that keeping a clan alive past the lifespan of the character creates a struggle, and it's that struggle which livens the game.

Yep.

[Realedazed]

I've read over this thread and I think some Player Run orgs would add another great twist to the game.  Since players would have more options to choose for, it may bring in some added RP.  For example, since it's been said in a previous post that if newer players joined the Noble houses, then the pool of players available to join player ran clans would be small. Now, this will create room for double-agents, competion for the remaining people, death or other threats to a person if he dhould even be seen talking to a recruiting officer for another clan, etc.  I would have came up with more ideas, but I'm sleepy.  Anways, I think you call can see where I'm going with this.

But heck, this may be going on now. I'm just a newbie, what do I know. :wink:

[EvilRoeSlade]

Venomz, you're not touching on the problem that the PCs are too important to the clan...if a PC screws up too much, their clan is dead.  Dead dead dead.  Now, if an immortal is sponsoring this clan, all the time spent on the clan by the immortal is wasted.  The only way I could see this working is if these clans were NOT immortal sponsored.

This would be a problem at first, but I believe that it would slowly begin to solve itself.  The staff would figure out who can keep their clan alive, and who can't.  The people that can keep their clan alive, would gradually cycle into positions of power.  Eventually we'd reach a happy level where clans are only killed, or damaged so much that they are closed to PCs, due to important, realistic actions of PCs or NPCs.

[spawnloser]

How is the time wasted? It's a game. You play it to have fun. Was Thrain Ironsword's semi-failed assault a waste of time since it didn't succeed? Was J'karr a waste of time because it's not around anymore? If Armageddon closes (which it one day inevitably will), does that make the entire game a waste of time? No. Just because something doesn't succeed (and playing out that can be entertaining) doesn't make it a waste of time.

You have obviously missed my point.  Making docs or buildings or...anything...that is no longer going to ever be used is time that could have been spent on something that will benefit the entire mud in the long term.  I'm not saying I'm against player run, smaller sized organizations...I'm just saying I don't want to create more work for the staff when there are more than plenty things they already have to deal with.

[Carnage]

You have obviously missed my point.

I haven't missed anything. You're just trying to cover up your own mistakes right now.

Making docs or buildings or...anything...that is no longer going to ever be used is time that could have been spent on something that will benefit the entire mud in the long term.

Okay. Who says that it's never ever going to benefit the MUD again? Who says it won't give inspiration to other characters or organizations? Hell, the T'zai Byn was inactive/dead for a bit if I recall correctly, but look at them now.

I'm not saying I'm against player run, smaller sized organizations...I'm just saying I don't want to create more work for the staff when there are more than plenty things they already have to deal with.

If it's player-run, wouldn't the players be doing all the work of creating the documents and writing up the rooms and such?

[spawnloser]

Actually, Carnage, if you got my point, you wouldn't be arguing with me...that or you're just trying to pick a fight.  You can pick whichever of these options you would like.

Sure, the players may do all the work, but for any clan, there will need to be staff involved at some point.  Well, not necessarily, but if there is no immortal involved with a clan, even to informally sponsor it (by saying it's okay and to keep an eye on the clan), I don't really want much to do with it.  I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

[Quirk]

I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

The staff are likely to approve the initial premise of the clan much as they approve character backgrounds. If it's a player-run clan, however, a change from what it was originally intended to be may be perfectly in keeping with circumstances - and to a large extent that's up to the players running it to decide, much as it's within players' prerogatives to decide how to play their characters. If these changes are wildly out of order, the staff may deliver something of a nudge, but that doesn't mean they necessarily have to keep a close eye on the tedious business of running it day to day. I can think of one or two instances of this sort of change with a certain desert elf tribe that was initially run entirely by players and eventually gained a level of imm support. I believe that the bringing of that clan into existence and building it into a position of strength improved the game far more than the actions of almost any House noble I have heard of.

What you seem to be arguing, spawnloser, is that the clans players belong to should not be vulnerable to destruction or dissolution. I've played in far more static environments than Armageddon, and I'm afraid I cannot agree that that leads to the best intrigue, the most enjoyable gameplay, or the best RP. If docs made for a clan last only until the clan's destruction six months down the line, the docs are not valueless. They are a valid record of what the clan was like in its heyday and provide possible inspiration for future clans. I'd love particularly to see documentation for such small clans as publically meet their demise to be made available so people creating new characters could reference them in their background if they wished.

That said, samsara did make a very good point a page or two back - too often such small clan conflicts descend into an orgy of violence. Even if players begin imaginatively with character assassinations, bribing templars to make hassle for the other side, etc, sooner or later someone with a short fuse will decree that everyone working for the opposition must die. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of that level of conflict injected into the game even at that - in certain parts of the gameworld organised and comprehensive movements to hurt the interests of other organisations are rare. I think this is largely because most of the Houses, Noble and Merchant, have predefined attitudes to the other Houses that exist on levels PCs cannot usually access, and these attitudes usually stop well short of discreetly waging an undercover war.

I would rather have a collection of brilliant, active, intrigue-riddled small clans of commoners struggling to survive down at a social level where dealing with elves and half-elves is not unthinkable than our current collection of mostly mediocre Houses coddling characters into a ripe and dull old age. As it stands, no matter how low-class a human character you try to make, you are very nearly forced into dealing with Noble Houses and rich people, simply because that is where a huge proportion of the playerbase is currently. The harshness is gradually draining out of the world; long-lived characters are becoming more the norm than the exception.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life.  It's a joyous thing, really.

Now...to address the points you brought up.  As far as changing, I'm talking about change in a bad way.  As in, something that the staff would disapprove of.  Growth and change are fine, but only as long as it is IC and isn't a sudden 180 degree switch that noone knows about except the jackasses in the clan because no IMM is keeping any tabs on the clan.  I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

[Quirk]

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life.  It's a joyous thing, really.

Yes, I have. I've performed some of those assassinations and ordered others. I'm well aware of the trouble that nobles can get in if they assassinate someone in another House without permission of their NPC or VNPC superiors, and I'm well aware of the resulting somewhat insipid tension that exists between the big Houses over a period with its occasional breaks and the consequences that follow. Don't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about here. You can point to those few and far between assassinations, you can claim what you like about the tissues of lies woven by those in power, but they are nothing like "war". I happen to like those conflicts where they arise, but I'm not going to pretend they're fine depictions of the harshness of Zalanthas. That you feel the way you do suggests to me that you've spent too long in Houses with characters who needed neither to worry about food or water, but I could be wrong.

I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

Well, the imms keep some sort of tabs on the actions of most PCs anyway to ensure their RP remains realistic; I don't see the level of interest taken needing to be greatly more than that. This appears an utter non-issue from my standpoint.

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

I'm not sure how to respond to this without seeming a little patronising, so please forgive me in advance if I do. You will always be at the mercy of what other players decide to do. If you're a noble or high-ranking aide in a Noble House and another noble is approved who blithely and clumsily destroys good relationships with others that it took you time to build or causes damage to the clan in some other way, there is little response you can make on the spot except to rage at them in private. Within the limited scope of power you currently have if playing a noble, almost all your work can be undone given an ally of sufficient stupidity. In a smaller clan where there is more power in the hands of the players, if someone in that clan does something remarkably harmful to its interests you also have more power to deal with them, not having to worry the same way about how your superiors will regard a quick or brutal solution. What really is the difference between having the efforts of your noble or aide undone (and many, many aides have seen all they've worked for undone on the ascendance of a new noble) and someone else's stupidity threatening to damage your commoner's clan?

If you're thinking of this on a documentation basis, you could apply exactly the same argument to Arm's permadeath. Someone else's stupidity can easily kill your character, and all the effort you put into writing up their background and describing them is lost. Should we do away with permadeath, then, so people aren't forced to make that effort? No. RPing without permadeath becomes artificial; there is no real harshness to the world.

Quirk

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war.  Assassinations and disinformation.  Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life...

I am sure that folks will maintain this style of aperation as well, because many times, the leading PC will be afraid of losing their clan if they were to lose a war of violence. I know I would.

...sudden 180 degree switch that noone knows about except the jackasses in the clan because no IMM is keeping any tabs on the clan.  I never said that an IMM needed to have a magnifying glass and taperecorder as they examine every action of every member of the clan.  I said I would want someone paying attention.

I think I said Immortal assisted. This would be part of that assistance. Cool?

As far as clans being immune to destruction or dissolution, as you (Quirk) said, I'm not opposed to it.  I just wouldn't want to put any effort into something that would be torn up by someone else's stupidity...

What would you define as stupidity? I mean, seriously, what? By their 'war'? I think wars between clans should be much more commonplace than they are now. I think that many times folks will refrain from outright violence, but I most certianly could see mercenary clans clashing, or assassins from Commoner House Kliad killing the leader of Commoner House J'lain. Of course, if that House J'lain has a good leader, then his death will not mean the end of the clan...if it doesn't, then that does mean the end of that House, as is realistic.

...and I'm betting a few of the staff would feel that way as well, considering they could be working on any number of other projects that they have waiting for them.

If the focus of staff involvement deviates from the Houses as they are now, a few more Immortals are brought on board, and the only things they have to worry about are their projects and watching, but not running, these small clans, I don't see where the extra work would come from. But maybe you are staff. Maybe you know.

[spawnloser]

Cool?

Yes.  Actually, I kinda thought you would have gotten that.  I'm not fully opposed to the idea...I just want IMM involvement and okay.

What would you define as supidity?

Something that was decided upon for OOC reasons because the player didn't know any better is a good example.  If you hadn't figured this one out, I have little faith in my fellow humans...and many people will probably end up playing characters that are smarter than they are in real life.  This throws an interesting wrench in the works.  Having an Immortal to help with some things could prevent some things from happening that really shouldn't.

If the focus of staff involvement deviates from the Houses as they are now, a few more Immortals are brought on board, and the only things they have to worry about are their projects and watching, but not running, these small clans, I don't see where the extra work would come from.

See, the problem with this is that you're assuming that the work:staff ration will stay the same...if more work appears, the staff will grow larger so that no staff member has any more work.  At least it seems as such.  Who is to say that that would happen immediately?

[Carnage]

Actually, Carnage, if you got my point, you wouldn't be arguing with me...that or you're just trying to pick a fight.  You can pick whichever of these options you would like.

Seems to me you're the one trying to pick a fight by dodging around the issues at hand and trying to go directly at me by saying I've misunderstood or haven't read your post.

Sure, the players may do all the work, but for any clan, there will need to be staff involved at some point.  Well, not necessarily, but if there is no immortal involved with a clan, even to informally sponsor it (by saying it's okay and to keep an eye on the clan), I don't really want much to do with it.  I'm one of those that believe the staff should approve a clan and what the clan's actions are...and watch the clan so that it doesn't degenerate into something that wasn't originally intended and is not cool, from the staff's position.  I feel something akin to responsibility, you see, to improve the game...not make it worse by any misguided actions.

Okay. You failed to address this part of my post, however, which is once again my response:

Who says that it's never ever going to benefit the MUD again? Who says it won't give inspiration to other characters or organizations? Hell, the T'zai Byn was inactive/dead for a bit if I recall correctly, but look at them now.

Edit:

Quirk, from your post I can say that I know for certain that you haven't played in a noble or merchant clan long enough and gotten trusted enough to know that yes, there are undercutting of other clan's interests that does stop just short of war. Assassinations and disinformation. Outright lies and pettiness the likes that most people will never see in real life. It's a joyous thing, really.

You're really full of yourself, aren't you?

[spawnloser]

First, you are making personal attacks by calling me full of myself.  I'm saying that you don't appear to be listening or understanding what I'm trying to say, so I continue trying to explain it to you so that you do.

Now...seriously, I have addressed things that explain my view on situations just like you have listed above.  For the sake of ease, I will reiterate...

Good, great, someone was inspired...I'm happy.  Really, I am.  That is one person...or a few people.  It might influence the greater portion of the mud...but then again, it very likely will not.  How many player-run clans have sprung up and died over the years?  Hell, I know of about a dozen in the last year.  Who will remember them in another year?  Probably noone.  That's not longterm.

You know, I like that someone can aspire to greatness and actually make it.  Without some of the clans about, for ANYONE to get anywhere near the fame/influence that some 'Normal Joe' PCs have risen to, there would need to be heavy Immortal support.  The way it is right now, that isn't necessarily required...because some of what would need to be done by IMMs is in the hands of PCs that the IMMs trust...but from everything that has been said above, everyone wants to shut those clans down for being too 'upscale' and not gritty and low end of the social ladder enough.

Screw y'all, I'm content with the clan set up the way it is.  You want a player-run clan...go right ahead.  Talk to the IMMs about it.  Whatever.  Have fun.  I'm just saying that I'm fine where I am with my current role in the clan he is in.

[Carnage]

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/clans/

Obviously, if the immortals of the game were dead-set against player-created clans, they wouldn't make up this file which helps encourage them.

[Rindan]

I think this topic took a large turn far away from the original point.  People are missing that there is a difference between clan organization, and the level the clan is being played it.

Clan organization is how the clan is structured, regardless if it is a small time mercenary outfit or large merchant house.  What a lot of people are getting hung up on is the actual structure.  If you strip away the IC titles and the IC background, you have a hierarchy of how decisions are made, in that hierarchy you have imms and PCs.  All clans have this sort of hierarchy.  I don't suggest touching the hierarchy much.  

In my ideal world, the commoner family Barduk that has maybe a 100 or so virtual family members who keep a reasonable amount of contact with each other would have roughly the same OOC structure as House Oash.  At the top you have imms who have a large say in direction and can basically veto any player efforts that they find out of line or unreasonable, then you have would your trusted 9 karma players providing day to day stability and order, then the regular round of PC middle men who managed individual men, and on the bottom you have PCs that basically can show up at the door and sign up without an imm doing anything more exciting then making a note that they joined and giving them board access.

Now, despite the fact that the actual hierarchy doesn't change, I think a lot of other things would.  The first and most obvious change would be that player run clans would suddenly become more viable.  Because the scale of conflict has dropped down a few notches player run clans no longer have to swim with giants and rightfully do not attract the attention of giants until it is realistic for them to do so.  

Take for instance a spice smuggling operation.  In the world of giants a small time spice runner will be crushed by Kurac.  The local PC Kuraci will be bored for things to do, see a player run operation, and make it his life's goal to crush it.  In the long run, Kurac is going to win.  In the world I envision this spice smuggling operation would likely never deal with Kurac.  They would deal with many other people operating at the same level, but the giants would keep their distance so long as they don't rise too high.  If they rise too high, then the imms can animate Kurac into life and cut them back down to an appropriate size.  In this manner, player run clans are encouraged because they will be allowed to operate with and against organization that are more their size.

In an example more close to a home, a player run city elf tribe would suddenly be much more viable.  Instead of only dealing with the rich and wealthy, the tribe would have commoners on the same level as themselves to deal with.

I am suggesting keeping the stability and the direction of imm run clans, but just dropping down the level where they exist.   Imm run clans would be just as stable as they are today.  I imagine the imms would have a lot more breathing room to make plots and story lines.  If the world is focused on small scale clans, then if an imm decides to kill off a clan for the sake of an interesting plot, the imm can do so without feeling like he/she is ravaging the world.  Killing off House Kurac would be a big deal.  Killing off the commoner family Barduk, while a big deal for the Allanaki commons and anyone involved, is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.  The world would feel a little more dynamic and allow for more flexibility.  The imms very well could allow a clan to be killed off every year just to keep things dynamic, but they wouldn't have to.  There is no greater or lesser danger in clans being destroyed through stupidity simply because while the clans are smaller, so is the power they are wielding, and when it comes down to an imm always holds the veto vote.

The effect of moving imm run clans from massive noble houses and merchant houses to smaller in terms of its virtual size is that the environment is more conducive to PC initiative, especially on the part of people not directly a member of imm run organization.  This isn't some new and crazy way of running clans or changing how much control imms have in them, it is simply shifting the focus of the game for PCs away from massive organization to a scale that is more appreciable to the average Allanaki commoner.

Don't change the hierarchy, just the clans being supported.

[spawnloser]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me.  I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want.  I just said to fucking include the staff.  I'm done with this discussion.  I'm tired of y'all.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me.  I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want.  I just said to fucking include the staff.  I'm done with this discussion.  I'm tired of y'all.

The discussion isn't even about players starting their own clans, although it is about creating an environment where that is more possible to do.

What it is about is an appeal the staff to shift their resources from large-scale clans to small-scale ones.

It just isn't going to happen without the staff backing it up.

[spawnloser]

ERS, I understand this...a while back someone said to just start up your own lower status clan, I simply said to include the staff or I for one would not want to be involved.  Carnage decided that I was wrong.

[Carnage]

Okay, y'all are completely missing me. I NEVER said that anyone should not start up any clan they want. I just said to fucking include the staff. I'm done with this discussion. I'm tired of y'all.

[Gesht]

- - I'm tired and irritable. This post will jump around, but it does cover side-topics related to lesser clans. Lesser clans, pkilling, and Trigonometry. All of which are important for conflict (particularly Trig). Anyhow, please excuse the unusual level of sloppiness and cursing for the fact I've not slept in 31 hours.



- - I personally like the idea of seeing a lot more middle class and lower class, player-driven clans. The main difference between myself and most people in Arm is that I feel there should be a lot more pkilling and people just plain being bastards to one another. As it stands, you're more likely to be killed by an NPC (under nearly any conditions/or setting) than a PC. Believe it or not, this is not a fault of the code but of the players. I don't like this.

- - As a bit of an experiment, and because I am evil, I planted the seeds conflict in Red Storm Village a few months ago. They have yet to blossum, but I have no doubt they will. I actually got the idea off of something Rindan suggested about making it possible for independent crafters to make a living in Red Storm. In any event, I foresee a good deal of IC-inspired, player-driven violence and maybe a couple extremely tiny clans. I personally take a hands-off approach to immortalling (it's a word now because I say so) and believe in giving players just enough to push their own plots along.

- - I'm afraid I've gotten off-subject, so let me try to refocus. You don't need an Imm for your clan. The more your clan depends on an Imm, the less players will have a role in it. An Imm, no matter how good, is a bottleneck. I'm not saying this to knock my fellow Imms. Simply put, if only one person can make the final decision, that decision cannot be made until they get around to it. Imms aren't online 24/7, staring at their monitor with a dull expression, hoping for a question to answer to break up the monotony of their miserable lives. Quite the opposite, most Imms are pressed for time. As I am typing this, I should be doing Trigonometry homework so I'll be prepared for the exam I have in 11 hours. Holy shit, I only have 11 hours left?

- - More player control means more of all the good things. Muscling independents, brutalzing competition, nepotism, favoritism, abuse of power, and total chaos in the streets. The Country Kitchen Buffet of conflict that a harsh world is supposed to have. When you take your importance down a few notches, interclan politics are a lot less cumbersome. Hiring independent arms also makes a lot more sense, and a Yojimbo/Man With No Name character could make a killing (figuratively and literally). Since you can act quickly on information, having spies is more meaningful. Small businesses are always the greatest employers.

- - Obviously, my suggestion is, make your own clan (or these lesser clans), where your playerbase is the driving force of all decisions. Do so and the gameplay will always flow, conflict will always feel real, and your membership will mean something. Imm assistance is good, but really... write your own docs, clean your own house. If someone in your clan makes bad decisions, unite the other members and get rid of them. ICly. As it is, I feel a good number of the playerbase has become rather smug ICly. This is, in my opinion, due to the fact their clan involvement makes them harder to take out than the should be. Other people of the same rank, in that clan or another, still have to seek approval. Then politics come into play... well, everything goes downhill from there.

- - On the other hand, less significant clans would be able to react appropriately and immediately. If the answer was to bribe a templar, you might start selling clan furniture to make sure you had enough black in your palm-greasing account. If the answer was kill them, maybe start sparring and reviewing escape routes. Stop being so damned concerned about karma. Role play as if you were a role player: If someone gives your PC a good reason to kill them, KILL THEM.

- - Karma is not supposed to be a goal. To quote the docs...

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself.

- - If one of your clan members or enemies needs to die, try to kill the little shit. Put a price on their head, poison them, blow them up, knock their asses out and feed them to a mek. Stop letting fear of being misunderstood by the staff OOCly screw up your RP. You aren't here to earn karma, you're here to role play. I can't seem to put what I am getting at into essay format, so let me just spread out my remaining, jumbled points...

* If your entire small clan is forced to put a hit out on a templar in order to stay IC, it doesn't matter if you succeed.

* If your entire small clan is brutally wiped out for staying IC, it doesn't matter how much effort you used in recruiting, training, and struggling for survival.

* If your entire, 3 year old small clan is obliterated from the scrolls of history, to the extent mentioning your name was punishable by death, it doesn't matter how much you'll miss it.

* If your clan lasts until the day Arm is no more (following the APM stuck by a plummeting satellite, killing all of the staff and most of the playerbase), your group's IC-survival doesn't matter.

- - Enjoyed what happenned, as a result of staying in character, is all that ever matters in the game. Fuck survival. You're supposed to be role playing.


The dust cloud has spoken, albeit in a broken manner.