Subdue rp good or bad?

[X-D]

In this case CRW, the attackers/aggressers are the ones getting subdued, they did have sharp things out, and I have no doubt that the char that survived took damage, maybe even large amounts, but again, people tend to not think about  how massive some things are in game.

As far as who can type the fastest, Hhhmmm, I don't see that, maybe somebody with a good skilled char and the one who thinks and plans the best, both people had built in lags.


Tell ya another thing, A half-giant or mul has to subdue and punch, they have no coded way to do the things they really would be doing. So this stands for it.

I know if I have a half-giant who weighs 3,200 lbs with armor on and he grabs hold of some human who weighs 200-300lbs with armor on, He is going to pick him up, bash him into some walls, put his hands together crushing the human between them then throw the bloody mass into the nearest hard object.

Also, remember, if a half-giant spreads his arms wide, thats around 15+ feet fingertip to fingertip, each step is going to cover 6-10 feet, pretty hard for some little human to get out of the way.

Me, I wish that every race could EP any item weighing 10-15% thier weight and swing/crush/throw it, also, a crush command would be nice, at least then we would not get so many complaints about somebody killing somebody else in a manner that gave them a chance to get away.

[Echo]

How in the name of everything escru is an assassin supposed to kill anyone if you don't allow them to use the only skills to kill they can employ? Once melee begins an assassin has two choices, run or kiss his/her ass goodbye.  The hide/backstab/flee... repeat... Is a VERY difficult method to employ and one I give a great amount of respect to should someone do it successfully.

What tires me is this feeling that the only good way to fight is to stand there typing kick, kick, fancy kick emote, disarm, kick until one party falls dead or runs off forever. A fight SHOULD be quick and deadly using all available resources... The occasional emote is cool but roleplay is not dependent upon loads of emotes, it's about playing what is right for your character. If you're a grappling street-fighter than go all out, if you're a competative fencer then what the hell are you doing subduing people?

Keep in mind people, TRYING to subdue someone and actually SUCCEEDING are two entirely different things. Just like trying to backstab someone. The attacker is taking a CHANCE... perhaps they take repeated chances...  But if they're taking repeated chances then they're obviously failing, giving you AMPLE time to get the hell away rather than waiting to get grabbed and killed so you can complain on the Discussion board shortly after.

[wardor]

A half-giant would not have much trouble subdueing a dwarf...  All I am saying is that it is unrealistic how the code works.  I do not think I could subdue a midget if he had a sword and shield...  I would be killed.

[Impska]

I think Echo has some very good points.

Is it twinkish for a ranger to flee an attacker, or chase a victim, firing off arrow after arrow? You bet they don't emote - there's no time. But a ranger's archery skill is often touted as what "evens the odds" between a ranger and a warrior. And you can bet success involves how fast you type.

And yet it's somehow twinkish for an assassin to basically do the same with backstab.

And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Does it suck when people make muls to sit on the North Road, subduing and killing travellers as they wander by? Sure, but you get over it. And next time, you learn not to hang around when a mul or half-giant walks in on your lone traveller. Or you learn to look ahead of you when you travel.

Having played a militia person, or a house guard, or a Bynner, I know how difficult it is to just outright subdue someone and have it work properly. Much of the time you miss, letting them run away as you sit lagged out, or they escape from your hold. Subdue does not have to be made useless just because people don't like it when half-giants/muls manage to subdue and kill them. It's a realistic advantage of the races. As previously stated by the staff - If you think someone is abusing the subdue skill, email it to the account. If someone does it consistently, you bet the staff will have something to say about it.

[Anonymous]

As far as who can type the fastest, Hhhmmm, I don't see that, maybe somebody with a good skilled char and the one who thinks and plans the best, both people had built in lags.

You can't backstab or subdue once combat has been initiated.  I've been in this situation before with someone fleeing and coming back to backstab me ad nauseum and that is what it becomes.  Who can type out their command the fastest.

[I Have Steel]

I Have Steel, I will remind you that it was YOU who returned to try and 'finish' the job. You got grabbed by something much larger than you and smashed. Keep in mind that even though you spar ALL the time as your aba would suggest that does not negate the fact that the thing you were fighting has a hand larger than your entire head and stands up to 4 times your height.

I'm not exactly sure why you're pointing the finger at me on a scenario, as my current character has been alive for a good 4 OOC months, and is still kicking now. I was posting a scenario for discussion.

But I'll work with my scenario...

You're telling me that to flee, and then run back in and subdue isn't twinkish?

You disengage from the fight, run waaaaaaay down the street (which is what moving to a different room is) And then you come back in, instantly cross all that ground on the street, grab up someone and smash them before they can react?

I personally can't see that happening. No matter what excuse can be made for trying to work the code or anything.

The only way to explain it would be to say that you're just disengaging from the fight to make your attempt at grabbing your opponent... but think on it, if you're not really fleeing away, and only using the flee as an emote to back away, wouldn't you find it a bit unrealistic that amidst the clash of weapons, your opponent suddent STOPS fighting to watch you get away and grab him? Or do you think he'd remain hot on your heels, swinging like a mad monkey?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Being honest, I would not find it unrealistic to be able to subdue in combat. Yes, I have said it. I have spoken heresy. But wait, hear me out.

Subdue, in the real world, has so many facats. You can trip someone and land on them, subduing them. You can ram someone, then quickly wrap your arms around them, or twist them about in their moment of suprise, and put a firm arm about their neck. You can throw a table at them, then stand on that table as they lay under it, subduing them. As I say, it has so many facats.

Of course there should be an unlikely chance, but it should be attemptable. By the same token, fleeing, running back, and subduing would be typically eliminated. I do find this twinkish, but only because you have to run a league just to leave a fight, and another to come back to one. I've often said that I'd like an option to break up a fight in the same room. Maybe flee room. Something like this.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I do find this twinkish, but only because you have to run a league just to leave a fight, and another to come back to one. I've often said that I'd like an option to break up a fight in the same room. Maybe flee room. Something like this.

Why would you find it twinkish when it really can't be helped?  If I could run less than a league away, trust me I would.

[jmordetsky]

I'm still with I Have Steel on this, I think it is a bit shite to flee and come back and subdue. My analogy is this,

I have RPed situations with a warrior/thug, where when enganged in a combat situation, that was me and another vs a third. We'll call them 1+2 vs 3. I'm 1.

2 is fighting 3 with 1 assisting. 1 flees, breaking off from the fight and returns steathily attempting to sap the 3 while they are engaed with 2.

This to me is a realistic flank maneuver scenario, in that 3 is occupied with 2 allowing 1 to wrap around and bust a cap.

The code also supports this fairly, in that there is a delay with sap (or backstab) and 3 has a chance to turn and face 1 before 1 can 'cap' him.

However, with subdue, it's instant. In my oppinion, EvilRoeSlade's scenario sort of falls in this category....I can see you ducking away, and looping back in for a tackle. This is understandable.

But, a) You should give a chance for I Have Steel to pursue, I mean, hey man, the char is looking right at you, where are you off to?


b) (and this is no fault of EvilRoeSlade) There is no delay in subdue. Which IMHO eats bluging kank bottom. There really needs to be a delay....even a short one with subdue. If there was, a maneuver like this would make more sense. Perhaps a delay with subdue when you have been previously in a fight. (not unlike the quit flag)

I think uberjazz states it quite eloquantly in the following derailment:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1680

Then the subdue/hit/HGrulesall topic comes up, which is basically an uberdeathkillnothingyoucandoaboutitfuckyouhahai'mruiningthegameforyou unarmed skill, and no one opposes it?

I agree with said statement wholeheartedly.

[EvilRoeSlade]

However, with subdue, it's instant. In my oppinion, EvilRoeSlade's scenario sort of falls in this category....I can see you ducking away, and looping back in for a tackle. This is understandable.

Actually, when you're trying to grapple, you close in with them, you don't move away.  In my opinion the whole flee-subdue is just bypassing a quirk in the code.  Subdue should be allowed to be used in the middle of combat (with a substantial penalty, granted).

But, a) You should give a chance for I Have Steel to pursue, I mean, hey man, the char is looking right at you, where are you off to?

Why not?  Grab him while he's trying to close with you, provided your reach is superior to his.

b) (and this is no fault of EvilRoeSlade) There is no delay in subdue. Which IMHO eats bluging kank bottom. There really needs to be a delay....even a short one with subdue. If there was, a maneuver like this would make more sense. Perhaps a delay with subdue when you have been previously in a fight. (not unlike the quit flag)

Give me the ability to subdue in the middle of combat (with a substantial penalty) and I'm all for it.

I think uberjazz states it quite eloquantly in the following derailment:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1680

Then the subdue/hit/HGrulesall topic comes up, which is basically an uberdeathkillnothingyoucandoaboutitfuckyouhahai'mruiningthegameforyou unarmed skill, and no one opposes it?

I agree with said statement wholeheartedly.

Thanks for pointing that thread out to me.  I don't follow Derailment Experiment any longer these days.

So then, you're saying that if I'm against a human being able to kill you with his fists, then I'm a hypocrite unless I'm also against a half-giant being able to kill you with his blocky, torso-sized fists?

I'm not a hypocrite when there are important factors to seperate the two trains of logic.

[Tamarin]

Surely you agree that the code permits not only HGs to do this, but also humans...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Surely you agree that the code permits not only HGs to do this, but also humans...

No?  I've seen humans, elves, and even super-hardcase dwarf warriors try it before, and I've never seen the same one try that stunt twice.

[Lerl]

Someone might please just lock this thread and put an end to it.  Whining and bad roleplay accusing because someone made full use of one of their combat skills?  Tell me this HG was attacking for no reason and you'll get my attention back.  Otherwise, all I will say is I sympathize with your obviously heart-felt loss.  I have lost characters I loved too.
Rick

[Tamarin]

I didn't lose a character....

[Anonymous]

If subdue and backstab are acceptable to be used multiple times during combat, they shouldn't require a flee.

Look at it in real life terms here.  If someone tries to grab at you and you are aggressively fighting back with your weapons, it is going to be incrementally harder for them to attempt a second subdue.  subdue <target> ; flee ; subdue <target> ; flee just does not take this into account.  And in the end it comes down to who can type faster, the guy typing kill <target> or the guy typing subdue <target>.

[Delstro]

And of course the really cheap bastards will have Subdue aliased to 'sd <target>'

[Quirk]

And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Well, yes, because it's bug abuse. The code's handling of grappling with an armed and trained warrior is not realistic. If the confrontation would not realistically end in your favour given your puny character's abilities while facing the ancient warrior, why resort to loopholes in the code? Correct RP would require a realistic response, which is far more likely to be either turning to face the warrior with weapons bared or running like an erdlu with its tail on fire - dropping your weapons and jumping at your opponent with arms spread wide is a ludicrous thing to do on an IC basis when said opponent is skilled with the sharp and deadly weapons being held in each hand.

Backstab/flee is more of a grey area. There's been somewhat of a discussion on it already with imm input, and I believe the consensus is that it can be acceptable if handled properly.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1685

Incidentally, to touch on EvilRoeSlade's comment - I'm not sure if I've got this right, I believe the claim is that subdue is extremely hard for non-half-giants? I lost a character back when I first started a couple of years ago now to a subduing elf, and nearly lost a second to one who tried exactly the tactics mentioned here, fleeing and returning and attempting to subdue. I don't believe subdue has been tweaked since with the exception of the removal of the ability to draw a weapon while subduing and hit the victim with it.

A good start would be to give subdue a substantial delay after, so if the subdue was failed the price would be a few rounds of combat spent unarmed - although it might not accurately represent the unlikelihood of getting to a subduing position against an armed attacker, it would provide a fairly accurate representation of the level of risk taken by attempting to fight without a weapon.

Quirk

[Tamarin]

And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Honestly...I'm having a really strange time trying to figure out why you just assume Byn trained warrior...

[Quirk]

And now it's twinkish to subdue and hit someone who is pursuing your character with weapons out? That because they're a 40-day Byn warrior, they're somehow entitled to kill you, no matter what, and you should just lay down and die? I'm sorry, but it's difficult to find sympathy in this scenario.

Honestly...I'm having a really strange time trying to figure out why you just assume Byn trained warrior...

No, I didn't. Impska wrote it. Credit where credit's due.

:twisted:

Quirk

[Tamarin]

Whoops, sorry Quirk. Got my quotes messed up.

[Twilight]

Lets be honest.  It isn't necessarily that subdue is broken.  Subdue worked just fine once.  Even when you could draw our your weapons and attack the subdued person, it once worked better than currently.

Then stun points went in.

That changed everything.  In my opinion, the subdue skill should have been rebalanced when stun points went in.  From what I can tell it wasn't, and that is why we are where we are.

Its not necessarily about realism.  A well run MUD is never wholely about realism.  Its about balance.  We all have our ideas of what constitutes balances, so thats a fluid mark to hit.

Personally, I think the whole considering fleeing to just be back away argument, even in stuff like Byn training, is a crock.  If you are using flee, you are getting the hell out of there.

Rebalance subdue.  Take into account the fact that we have had stun code for, hmmm, how many years now?  Put the wait state for subdue on the front end.  Let people be able to have a chance of subduing in combat.  Change the wait state lengths so you can't flee/subdue while the other person is in kill lag.  Those would be my suggestions to rebalance the skill.

[UnderSeven]

Eww, subduing in the middle of combat? You're introducing a whole new world of problems.

I can't seriously read your post as one solid arguement, I'm going to break it up.

1) Subdue code isn't broken.

2) Subdue code doesn't take stun into account.

3) Allow subdue during combat.

Whaaaa?!

If subdue code isn't broken than lets not fix it.  I don't see how stun has anything to do with subdue whatsoever personally, lemme re-read your post and see if I missed something. . Nope, still don't understand where you are comming from.

Then you said subdue out of combat.  Okay, if we have like scales with one side of 3 ounces and the other side with 3 1/4 (slightly off balance) and we made it possible to subdue out of combat, that would be like dropping a ton on one side of the scale.

Why?  Because subdue is a size thing currently.  If a giant can't hit you with anything, he can still pretty much instantly subdue.  Maybe you can break free, but maybe he can club you on the head.  Now if you can subdue out of combat what will we see?  Bulky people with no offense or deapons skills what so ever simply subduing everyone.  It would be the end all skill and suddenly everyone in game would become professional wrestlers, use cheesy catch phrases and find folding chairs out of the very fabric of time!

There is this thing called distance, the game doesn't really take it into account, reach and such.  I personally consider subdue to be a skill that requires you to get close. The only way I could image subduing out of combat make sense is if the skill took defense into account and opun missing, the person who tried got impaled on their attackers weapons.  In which case we might as well not put it in because the skill would be so suicidal to use in combat that no one would.

[Anonymous]

How about just make it so you cannot attack, whatsoever, while you have someone subdued?

And if you release them, how about a delay before you can attack them?

Seems to me that's all it would take to fix most of the problems with it.

Personally, I don't think it's much of a problem...to me it's flat out code abuse for someone to be doing some of the things that people are doing with subdue and I think there should be examples put under rules specifically about using subdue is such ways as being such, also put it under the help file for subdue. If anyone is caught doing such things...give them a warning the first time, then if they do it again, give them the boot.

How about a bonus to the save vs. subdue that is dependant upon your agility?

I don't really think it's that bad, a few minor problems, just people who are exploiting them and should be given the boot for doing so.

[Twilight]

A chance of subduing in combat.  Lets say current chance * .20 or .10 during which time you are barehanded and being attacked.  I would prefer that.

[X-D, musta lagged out.]

Personally, I think the whole considering fleeing to just be back away argument, even in stuff like Byn training, is a crock. If you are using flee, you are getting the hell out of there

NO, It is because We have no way to distance from combat -without- leaving the imaginary room, I cannot have my char run 15 feet from yours and turn around and throw a rock, so, I MUST use the flee command to run an -unknown- distance, turn around and throw a rock.

DUH.

Sheesh.

In RL combat you can run around objects, other people, you can push, grab, pull, tackle etc etc, These things we cannot do in arm, so, you use what you can, normaly it is called (pay attention now) A work around.