Siege Weapons

[SailorMars]

Do things like catapaults or ballistas exist in Zalanthas?

[darksheep]

I think it would be logical for them to exist even with the lack of metal. It'd be kinda neat for them to be implemented, though I think a lot of codeing would be required.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Things like that exist.

And yes, metal is not required. Clever use of counter-weight and fulcrums and pivots readily allows the construction of siege machines.

[sacac]

Oh.. just what we need.. A southern Templar getting a hold of one
you see a ball of compiled Tek crap hurling your way?
Move or not?
As it nears, you tilt your head and spot a jade cross on it.
Squish..

I have never seen one.. But I like it.

[Alamos]

They're called mekillots.

[COGATO]

As I recall I have seen this topic on the GDB some time in the past and there were some very interesting points brought up about the usefulness of something like this. One of the best examples I can think of was somebody mentioned them being used to ward off large creatures like mekillots and bahamets from the city walls without having to send out an entire legion of troops to fall to the creature. Not to mention it would be nice to see "A large bolt flys in from the west" "A large bolt decapitates a small smelly warrior"....or maybe its just me. Either way, I like it.

[Petra]

Why bother sending troops out or using a catapault when you can simply magick away the mekillot?

I think Tuluk, on the other hand, being a magick-free city-state would have to rely on technology of this sort, and in fact they may possess a greater knowledge of technology in general (rudimentary technology, I'm not talking firearms, laser guns, and electricity here) in order to accoplish some of the things Allanak can simply get away with by using magick.

Though that's not to say Allanak or anyone else wouldn't use a catapault in addition to magick, but they were probably used in abundance moreso in real world history because of the fact that they couldn't, instead, throw a fireball in their enemy's face or similar phenomenon.

[Tamarin]

I would like to see a better mass combat (i.e. WAR) code in general...if you're fighting a war, it is very unlikely that during the fray, you can (with twenty of your buddies) gang up on say...one mantis or gith.  It just isn't logistically feasible.

I think an IMM-started, coded war command would be cool...it would change the dynamic of the game and actually allow for some strategy in large-scale combat.

[SailorMars]

I would like to see a better mass combat (i.e. WAR) code in general...if you're fighting a war, it is very unlikely that during the fray, you can (with twenty of your buddies) gang up on say...one mantis or gith. It just isn't logistically feasible.

I agree, and think the D&D paradigm for pig piles would work.

That is, a medium-sized creature, such as a dwarf, human, elf, etc. can only have so many similiar-sized creatures surrounding it. Example: A human surrounded by elves.

Code Select Expand


EEE
EHE
EEE


Now a long creature like a kank might take up two "squares". Here's the lava-colored kank being admired by the human nobles.

Code Select Expand


HHH
HKH
HKH
HHH


How about dwarves ganging up on a single half-giant?

Code Select Expand


DDDD
DHHD
DHHD
DDDD


In other words, establish sizes, such as D&D uses, then figure out how many things  can surround that size. If you try to assist or engage a surrounded creature it might just say "that creature is surrounded, you can't find a way to it".

Now, here's where casters and archers could have some room to strut their stuff... But then again a surrounded creature might have cover... and there'd be a chance to blast/shoot your ally...

Could also make code that counted the percentage a creature was surrounded, and give a penalty to flee based on that..

Anyways, I'm way off-topic (on my own topic!) but there's some food for thought.

[COGATO]

Hey I really like where you are going with this, especially the bit you said about putting a penalty against the victims ability to flee, I hate seeing a dwarf getting attacked by 5 elves who has the ability to just up and jump out of battle. And what was said about archers getting to strut thier stuff, I really like that concept as well, there needs to be some kind of code put in so that archery has a more suitable place in large scale combat, for once maybe you would have training quarters and units specifically for pc archers in some of the worlds military organizations instead of just having npc archers for all of the clans with your rare pc archer who trained on his own, though I will give the byn cudos for thier archery range, though there isnt a byn member alive under seargeant who makes the coin to supply himself with ample arrows....but thats another issue....Anyways, good stuff here, I like it very much.

[creeper386]

In response to Petra. Although Allanak ALLOWS magickers there isn't many cases of public use of magickers. As that would most of the time start riots or just generally run everyone else off. I'd say commoners as a whole fear and loathe magickers in Allanak as much as they do in Tuluk, but they are kept in line as the Templarate allows it. Still doesn't mean the templarate lets magick run rampat wherever. Templars don't even use their OWN magick that much. It's more important things like that stay a mystery. Or else they loose alot of the power they hold. So I don't see Tuluk being any further ahead then Allanak. You're acting like Allanak uses magick for everything from crafting spoons to building great structures to destroying armies. I say it isn't so at all.

As for siege engines and such. I've heard they exist. Although I think seeing more basic mechanical things being in use would be a blast.

As for the little grid thing to determine how many people can attack... It's hardly that easy. Maybe eight people could surround someone if they are using long spears... but if they are using daggers they have to get much closer, therefor less room. If they are using axes or longswords, they have to have more room to swing, so less people... It'd get pretty complicated. Then you got varying sizes. How you account for it. Do you go off of weight only? Sure dwarves are stout but would you be able to surround one with the same or even more people then a human?

You also would have to factor in skill of the person being surrounded. Probably his speed. His own weapon, his reach... One person may not last long against a large group, but a skilled person can easiely keep people at bay and shape the battle field much better, then some cowering merchant lets say.

So, I'd say it's more complicated then just a simple grid, but I'm sure something could be figured out.


Creeper

[Rindan]

I would say that it is pretty well known that both Allanak and Tuluk use magik as siege weapons.  The flavor might vary, but as far as I know in all the the recent conflicts with Tuluk, gates were stormed both times by both sides, and no traditional siege weapons were used.  Even Tuluk has its templars to wield magik, along with whatever other secret magiks they might be hiding.  Allanak has an even more obvious supply of magiks simply using its gemmed.

I don't think that siege weapons would be as big of a deal as they were for Earth.  In most battles on Zalanthas they are quick.  Offense rules and siege warfare is very rare.  I can't see a reason why they would bother to develop a great deal of siege weapon technology.  Why bother with ballistics when you can have a core of gemmed or templars launch their own attacks much quicker, with greater power, and with a thousand times greater mobility?

Siege weapons need to be moved and set up, while you can throw a templar or magiker onto a kanks back and ride him with the rest of the army.  I am not suggesting that they might not develop some ballistics, especially for defense, just that I think it would never be a big thing simply due to the fact that magiker is so much better.  It is more powerful, more mobile, and cheaper to wield.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Battles are quick in Armageddon because they primarily utilize PCs and such for these. However, if you remember the Seige on Allanak, staged by Thanos and his dwarves, you'll remember that it lasted a year.

Were battles to be set up correctly in Armageddon, and more time put into such endevours, I think one could very well simulate an actual seige. I am not putting down the efforts of Staff Members, so do not read this incorrectly. But I can think of a number of ways to better simulate an actual war.

[creeper386]

Well for one. I bet you the number of people that aren't suited to fight, but could build and man a seige engine would out number the templars and gemmed magickers.

For two, I don't see magick being used that much during wars. Most warriors don't want to fight along side magickers. Or in the same vicinity. If you have a templar blasting people right beside the other warriors they are most likely going to be more at awe with that templars power then worrying about their own enemy. Magick would end up being more harm then it's worth. Perhaps there would be areas of the war where magick would be used but I don't think it'd be a COMMON occurence. Or used through out the whole fight.

The north doesn't have as many templars as the south has templars and magickers I wouldn't think. So this causes a problem. If the battles were mostly relying on magick, most likely the north would never EVER win anything. Would be even more wiped out then they were before.

Blah blah blah. And it still doesn't change the fact. If any sort of magick was commonly used. It'd be less feared. If people start learning they can work aside magickers and end up better then before... They are going to be more likely to try and use one for whatever means. Commoners buddying up with magickers on a whole isn't wanted in Allanak I'm sure. And the population of the North learning their templars can still be killed even when throwing about Muk's might might not be a good idea.

Eh, over all I don't see magick being used as extreme as Rindan suggests. Perhaps it has been used in battles in the past but I don't think it'd be the "norm" when it comes to fighting, and more mundane means would be used.


Creeper

[Petra]

In response to Petra. Although Allanak ALLOWS magickers there isn't many cases of public use of magickers.

The public, largescale use of magick in Allanak is about as frequent as a catapault might find use.  For example, during the liberation of Tuluk magick was used quite heavily and quite openly.  I've seen more than a number of templars in Allanak waltz around with visible magick affects, though perhaps they've become more subtle about it in recent years, that's still not enough yet for me to change my opinion of the overall grand picture.

I'd say commoners as a whole fear and loathe magickers in Allanak as much as they do in Tuluk, but they are kept in line as the Templarate allows it.

As a player character, if I want my average run-of-the-mill commoner to decide (s)he is OK with magick, for whatever reason, that's probably a bit unorthadox, but not "unnacceptable", or whatever.  If I try the same with a Tuluki based character, you might go so far as comparing that to an elf riding a kank, in terms of realism (though that might be stretching it).  Regardless, there's quite a distinct difference.  Tuluk has reason to hate magick, Allanak merely does for superstitious/ignorant reasons.

You're acting like Allanak uses magick for everything from crafting spoons to building great structures to destroying armies. I say it isn't so at all.

Yeah, hey there Sassy, I'm not "acting" like anything, least of all that Allanak uses magick for everything and anything.  I imagine if anything magick is used for, like I said above, it's large scale operations, such as defense of the city-state (just like the frequency at which a catapault might be used).

[Stroker]

For two, I don't see magick being used that much during wars. Most warriors don't want to fight along side magickers

Then you're blind my Capitalistic friend. How did Tek win almost all of his wars? Was it the pure strength of his armies? Or did he annhilate Steinal with magick? Did he take out Thanos with his militia? Or did he 'breathe death' on them?

If you play in 'nak then you can see that magick is used in warfare and in addition, it is sometimes used in simpler tasks as well. I would have to agree that Allanak's dependency upon magick may possibly stunt its technological growth. I do not know whether this is actually accounted for in Zalanthas, but it is possible and probable.

[creeper386]

I'm not saying it isn't used. And I'm not counting Tek' dealing personally with things.

I don't see contigents of magickers marching along with the rest of the army. I don't see magicker militiamen stationed at the gates to ward off creatures.

When Thanos attacked I doubt magickers marched out the gates and rained death on them right out in the public eye where everyone saw what horrific power is living next to them.

And if it has done so in the past. Especially during RPTs and such. I think it's a HUGE folly. Magick should be used sparringly if not at all in the public eye. Public use of templar magick might sometimes be used but it probably wouldn't be needed. It'd be a show put on by the templarate.

The Allanak government should rarely ever publicly use magick. They don't allow magickers to use magick in public not because they are feared of the damage the magicker could cause as they could quickly stop that, probably even a non-gemmer. They are afraid of the havoc and mayhem that would develop from magick being used openly. They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

If you want to have a PC that likes magickers or whatever. Go for it, but just because you have that CHOICE doesn't mean that is the norm of society.

Perhaps in the past Allanak has massively used magickers in the open public eye and along side their soldiers and such... If so I think it goes against everything that the magick is about. The magick system is guarded OOCily so to keep it's IC mystery. So it'd be likely there'd be reasons for it to be unknown ICly.


Creeper

[Stroker]

From IC knowledge, from what I've seen and heard in the game world while playing in 'nak, I can say clearly that you have several misconceptions in your argument. Perhaps you need to visit Allanak and examine its magick use more closely.

I am not arguing that magick is used frequently in the city, but I am proposing that there is ENOUGH of it in 'nak to stunt the growth of technology in various areas. However, maybe this is not true on a VNPC scale of 'Nak. Thus, I really can't accurately come to one conclusion, but the one Petra presented earlier is a possiblity. And a sexy one at that.

[Angela Christine]

The Allanak government should rarely ever publicly use magick. They don't allow magickers to use magick in public not because they are feared of the damage the magicker could cause as they could quickly stop that, probably even a non-gemmer. They are afraid of the havoc and mayhem that would develop from magick being used openly. They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

No, it's just because they are jerks.  It is illegal to leave the temples while terminate and stay resident spells that are undetectable to mundanes are still in effect, even if they have no harmful effect and could -benefit- the city.  Detection spells, for example.  

Suppose you have a spell that lets you detect magickal or invisible things/people/creatures.  There shouldn't be anything like that inside the city, so if the magicker spotted something like that (and it wasn't attatched to a templar) then it would almost certainly be something illegal and potentially a threat to the city.  The militia aren't going to spot it, and Templars can't be everywhere, so why not let the elementalists burn their own mana looking for these things?  Because the Templarate are a bunch of jerks.  It is the only reasonable explanation.  

Sure, you don't want elementalists flying around shooting water fountains out their fingertips, everybody gets that.  But unnoticable detection and protection spells?  That's just small minded.  Petty jerks.


AC

[sacac]

I like war-machines.. But If I remember correctly..
if 9 men wern't wearing armor.. they could easily fit next to each other and kill someone with daggers

[Tamarin]

While arrows are flying around....and stray kanks are romping all over the place....with half-giants flinging people around.....and mantises ripping people apart...and big assed meks stomping on people....um....no.

[crymerci]

They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

I see your point, but I'd have to disagree.  I do agree that magickers would be less likely to go out on your average patrol, but war is different.  In a war there is so much carnage and so many atrocities that even the use of magic would just seem like another shock among many.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Siege weapons are largely impractical on Zalanthas.  For one thing, they're heavy.  You'd have to either dismantle them and reassemble them every time you wanted to move them over long distances, or you'd have to build them on location.  You're just not going to be able to move one fully constructed over Zalanthan terrain, especially sand.

Then there's the availability of materials to consider.  Siege weapons require not just large quantities of raw materials, but massive raw materials to begin with.  Consider a simple siege weapon like a ballista or catapault.  I can see a torsion skein being developed to power one, but that requires either some really large bones or heavy wood beams in order to support the kind of forces that are going to be exerted on the weapon in order to get it to fire anything that is going to do reasonable structural damage.  You also don't get much in the way of reinforcing material - no metal to sheathe joints, protect crossbars, etc.  You'd be lucky if your weapon held together for more than a handful of times being fired.

However, after saying all that, I think there is one siege weapon that is practical for Zalanthas - the trebuchet.  It's low-impact, can be built on site fairly easily or deconstructed and transported.  It's very low-tech, yet effective all the same.  So, in my opinion, the most practical and effective siege weapon in the Zalanthan repetoire would be the trebuchet.

[creeper386]

Most early siege engines only lasted a few shots. Some not that long. Ussually killed the crew that maned it when it comes apart. Early cannons, early guns, early crossbows, were as likely to kill/maim the user then to injure the target. They still were used.

As for there being alot of carnage in war, and magick would just be one of the many atrocities... It still wouldn't be over looked. Death is common in Zalanthas. A horrible bloody death isn't too rare. Magick however is incredibly feared, supernatural fucking thing. It'd be worse then using a crossbow back in medievil times when the weapons was frowned upon by alot of people.

Heck, I'm sorry, but if your in the middle of a warrior, even now of days, with planes, bombs, guns and what have you. And someone blasts someone with lightning, a huge fiery ball or something, it's going to be noticed. Perhaps it'll be passed off as new technology. Zalanthas can't pass it off. They KNOW it's magick. Most think it the most horrible and evil thing ever. It isn't even legal to openly cast magick in any of civilization. Most places don't even ALLOW magickers to live... How does that go unnoticed as another attrocity?


Creeper

[Quirk]

Magick however is incredibly feared, supernatural fucking thing. It'd be worse then using a crossbow back in medievil times when the weapons was frowned upon by alot of people.

I think you've seriously got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Creeper. Firstly, templar magick is going to inspire those on the same side, not cause them to turn on their templars. Their Gods are performing miracles for them on the battlefield. People will be scared of it when it's turned against them, but not when their foes are being annihilated by it.

As far as gemmers go, the 'Nakki attitude to magick is a lot more relaxed than the North. Put simply, magick is not as feared in the South. Where the Houses and militia have combat mages, they frequently drill with the troops they would fight beside until they become accustomed to some degree to seeing magick in battle. That this is even possible is a result of the different mindset in the South from the North. Allanaki citizens have a superstitious awe of magick and a fear of it being turned against them; Tulukis have the hardened hatred of those who have seen their city destroyed by magick. The former can be and is much more easily overcome.

The problem is that people see magick as a black/white thing. However, not all magick will be feared equally, not all places or people will look on it the same way. There's a progression from the distrusted to the fearsome to the incarnations of devilry such as the Nilazi, the sorcerer and the mindbender. To treat a Vivaduan the same way as a sorcerer in a society where something is known about magickers (i.e. the South) argues a too-simplistic view of the game world to me.

Quirk