Siege Weapons

[SailorMars]

Do things like catapaults or ballistas exist in Zalanthas?

[darksheep]

I think it would be logical for them to exist even with the lack of metal. It'd be kinda neat for them to be implemented, though I think a lot of codeing would be required.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Things like that exist.

And yes, metal is not required. Clever use of counter-weight and fulcrums and pivots readily allows the construction of siege machines.

[sacac]

Oh.. just what we need.. A southern Templar getting a hold of one
you see a ball of compiled Tek crap hurling your way?
Move or not?
As it nears, you tilt your head and spot a jade cross on it.
Squish..

I have never seen one.. But I like it.

[Alamos]

They're called mekillots.

[COGATO]

As I recall I have seen this topic on the GDB some time in the past and there were some very interesting points brought up about the usefulness of something like this. One of the best examples I can think of was somebody mentioned them being used to ward off large creatures like mekillots and bahamets from the city walls without having to send out an entire legion of troops to fall to the creature. Not to mention it would be nice to see "A large bolt flys in from the west" "A large bolt decapitates a small smelly warrior"....or maybe its just me. Either way, I like it.

[Petra]

Why bother sending troops out or using a catapault when you can simply magick away the mekillot?

I think Tuluk, on the other hand, being a magick-free city-state would have to rely on technology of this sort, and in fact they may possess a greater knowledge of technology in general (rudimentary technology, I'm not talking firearms, laser guns, and electricity here) in order to accoplish some of the things Allanak can simply get away with by using magick.

Though that's not to say Allanak or anyone else wouldn't use a catapault in addition to magick, but they were probably used in abundance moreso in real world history because of the fact that they couldn't, instead, throw a fireball in their enemy's face or similar phenomenon.

[Tamarin]

I would like to see a better mass combat (i.e. WAR) code in general...if you're fighting a war, it is very unlikely that during the fray, you can (with twenty of your buddies) gang up on say...one mantis or gith.  It just isn't logistically feasible.

I think an IMM-started, coded war command would be cool...it would change the dynamic of the game and actually allow for some strategy in large-scale combat.

[SailorMars]

I would like to see a better mass combat (i.e. WAR) code in general...if you're fighting a war, it is very unlikely that during the fray, you can (with twenty of your buddies) gang up on say...one mantis or gith. It just isn't logistically feasible.

I agree, and think the D&D paradigm for pig piles would work.

That is, a medium-sized creature, such as a dwarf, human, elf, etc. can only have so many similiar-sized creatures surrounding it. Example: A human surrounded by elves.

Code Select Expand


EEE
EHE
EEE


Now a long creature like a kank might take up two "squares". Here's the lava-colored kank being admired by the human nobles.

Code Select Expand


HHH
HKH
HKH
HHH


How about dwarves ganging up on a single half-giant?

Code Select Expand


DDDD
DHHD
DHHD
DDDD


In other words, establish sizes, such as D&D uses, then figure out how many things  can surround that size. If you try to assist or engage a surrounded creature it might just say "that creature is surrounded, you can't find a way to it".

Now, here's where casters and archers could have some room to strut their stuff... But then again a surrounded creature might have cover... and there'd be a chance to blast/shoot your ally...

Could also make code that counted the percentage a creature was surrounded, and give a penalty to flee based on that..

Anyways, I'm way off-topic (on my own topic!) but there's some food for thought.

[COGATO]

Hey I really like where you are going with this, especially the bit you said about putting a penalty against the victims ability to flee, I hate seeing a dwarf getting attacked by 5 elves who has the ability to just up and jump out of battle. And what was said about archers getting to strut thier stuff, I really like that concept as well, there needs to be some kind of code put in so that archery has a more suitable place in large scale combat, for once maybe you would have training quarters and units specifically for pc archers in some of the worlds military organizations instead of just having npc archers for all of the clans with your rare pc archer who trained on his own, though I will give the byn cudos for thier archery range, though there isnt a byn member alive under seargeant who makes the coin to supply himself with ample arrows....but thats another issue....Anyways, good stuff here, I like it very much.

[creeper386]

In response to Petra. Although Allanak ALLOWS magickers there isn't many cases of public use of magickers. As that would most of the time start riots or just generally run everyone else off. I'd say commoners as a whole fear and loathe magickers in Allanak as much as they do in Tuluk, but they are kept in line as the Templarate allows it. Still doesn't mean the templarate lets magick run rampat wherever. Templars don't even use their OWN magick that much. It's more important things like that stay a mystery. Or else they loose alot of the power they hold. So I don't see Tuluk being any further ahead then Allanak. You're acting like Allanak uses magick for everything from crafting spoons to building great structures to destroying armies. I say it isn't so at all.

As for siege engines and such. I've heard they exist. Although I think seeing more basic mechanical things being in use would be a blast.

As for the little grid thing to determine how many people can attack... It's hardly that easy. Maybe eight people could surround someone if they are using long spears... but if they are using daggers they have to get much closer, therefor less room. If they are using axes or longswords, they have to have more room to swing, so less people... It'd get pretty complicated. Then you got varying sizes. How you account for it. Do you go off of weight only? Sure dwarves are stout but would you be able to surround one with the same or even more people then a human?

You also would have to factor in skill of the person being surrounded. Probably his speed. His own weapon, his reach... One person may not last long against a large group, but a skilled person can easiely keep people at bay and shape the battle field much better, then some cowering merchant lets say.

So, I'd say it's more complicated then just a simple grid, but I'm sure something could be figured out.


Creeper

[Rindan]

I would say that it is pretty well known that both Allanak and Tuluk use magik as siege weapons.  The flavor might vary, but as far as I know in all the the recent conflicts with Tuluk, gates were stormed both times by both sides, and no traditional siege weapons were used.  Even Tuluk has its templars to wield magik, along with whatever other secret magiks they might be hiding.  Allanak has an even more obvious supply of magiks simply using its gemmed.

I don't think that siege weapons would be as big of a deal as they were for Earth.  In most battles on Zalanthas they are quick.  Offense rules and siege warfare is very rare.  I can't see a reason why they would bother to develop a great deal of siege weapon technology.  Why bother with ballistics when you can have a core of gemmed or templars launch their own attacks much quicker, with greater power, and with a thousand times greater mobility?

Siege weapons need to be moved and set up, while you can throw a templar or magiker onto a kanks back and ride him with the rest of the army.  I am not suggesting that they might not develop some ballistics, especially for defense, just that I think it would never be a big thing simply due to the fact that magiker is so much better.  It is more powerful, more mobile, and cheaper to wield.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Battles are quick in Armageddon because they primarily utilize PCs and such for these. However, if you remember the Seige on Allanak, staged by Thanos and his dwarves, you'll remember that it lasted a year.

Were battles to be set up correctly in Armageddon, and more time put into such endevours, I think one could very well simulate an actual seige. I am not putting down the efforts of Staff Members, so do not read this incorrectly. But I can think of a number of ways to better simulate an actual war.

[creeper386]

Well for one. I bet you the number of people that aren't suited to fight, but could build and man a seige engine would out number the templars and gemmed magickers.

For two, I don't see magick being used that much during wars. Most warriors don't want to fight along side magickers. Or in the same vicinity. If you have a templar blasting people right beside the other warriors they are most likely going to be more at awe with that templars power then worrying about their own enemy. Magick would end up being more harm then it's worth. Perhaps there would be areas of the war where magick would be used but I don't think it'd be a COMMON occurence. Or used through out the whole fight.

The north doesn't have as many templars as the south has templars and magickers I wouldn't think. So this causes a problem. If the battles were mostly relying on magick, most likely the north would never EVER win anything. Would be even more wiped out then they were before.

Blah blah blah. And it still doesn't change the fact. If any sort of magick was commonly used. It'd be less feared. If people start learning they can work aside magickers and end up better then before... They are going to be more likely to try and use one for whatever means. Commoners buddying up with magickers on a whole isn't wanted in Allanak I'm sure. And the population of the North learning their templars can still be killed even when throwing about Muk's might might not be a good idea.

Eh, over all I don't see magick being used as extreme as Rindan suggests. Perhaps it has been used in battles in the past but I don't think it'd be the "norm" when it comes to fighting, and more mundane means would be used.


Creeper

[Petra]

In response to Petra. Although Allanak ALLOWS magickers there isn't many cases of public use of magickers.

The public, largescale use of magick in Allanak is about as frequent as a catapault might find use.  For example, during the liberation of Tuluk magick was used quite heavily and quite openly.  I've seen more than a number of templars in Allanak waltz around with visible magick affects, though perhaps they've become more subtle about it in recent years, that's still not enough yet for me to change my opinion of the overall grand picture.

I'd say commoners as a whole fear and loathe magickers in Allanak as much as they do in Tuluk, but they are kept in line as the Templarate allows it.

As a player character, if I want my average run-of-the-mill commoner to decide (s)he is OK with magick, for whatever reason, that's probably a bit unorthadox, but not "unnacceptable", or whatever.  If I try the same with a Tuluki based character, you might go so far as comparing that to an elf riding a kank, in terms of realism (though that might be stretching it).  Regardless, there's quite a distinct difference.  Tuluk has reason to hate magick, Allanak merely does for superstitious/ignorant reasons.

You're acting like Allanak uses magick for everything from crafting spoons to building great structures to destroying armies. I say it isn't so at all.

Yeah, hey there Sassy, I'm not "acting" like anything, least of all that Allanak uses magick for everything and anything.  I imagine if anything magick is used for, like I said above, it's large scale operations, such as defense of the city-state (just like the frequency at which a catapault might be used).

[Stroker]

For two, I don't see magick being used that much during wars. Most warriors don't want to fight along side magickers

Then you're blind my Capitalistic friend. How did Tek win almost all of his wars? Was it the pure strength of his armies? Or did he annhilate Steinal with magick? Did he take out Thanos with his militia? Or did he 'breathe death' on them?

If you play in 'nak then you can see that magick is used in warfare and in addition, it is sometimes used in simpler tasks as well. I would have to agree that Allanak's dependency upon magick may possibly stunt its technological growth. I do not know whether this is actually accounted for in Zalanthas, but it is possible and probable.

[creeper386]

I'm not saying it isn't used. And I'm not counting Tek' dealing personally with things.

I don't see contigents of magickers marching along with the rest of the army. I don't see magicker militiamen stationed at the gates to ward off creatures.

When Thanos attacked I doubt magickers marched out the gates and rained death on them right out in the public eye where everyone saw what horrific power is living next to them.

And if it has done so in the past. Especially during RPTs and such. I think it's a HUGE folly. Magick should be used sparringly if not at all in the public eye. Public use of templar magick might sometimes be used but it probably wouldn't be needed. It'd be a show put on by the templarate.

The Allanak government should rarely ever publicly use magick. They don't allow magickers to use magick in public not because they are feared of the damage the magicker could cause as they could quickly stop that, probably even a non-gemmer. They are afraid of the havoc and mayhem that would develop from magick being used openly. They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

If you want to have a PC that likes magickers or whatever. Go for it, but just because you have that CHOICE doesn't mean that is the norm of society.

Perhaps in the past Allanak has massively used magickers in the open public eye and along side their soldiers and such... If so I think it goes against everything that the magick is about. The magick system is guarded OOCily so to keep it's IC mystery. So it'd be likely there'd be reasons for it to be unknown ICly.


Creeper

[Stroker]

From IC knowledge, from what I've seen and heard in the game world while playing in 'nak, I can say clearly that you have several misconceptions in your argument. Perhaps you need to visit Allanak and examine its magick use more closely.

I am not arguing that magick is used frequently in the city, but I am proposing that there is ENOUGH of it in 'nak to stunt the growth of technology in various areas. However, maybe this is not true on a VNPC scale of 'Nak. Thus, I really can't accurately come to one conclusion, but the one Petra presented earlier is a possiblity. And a sexy one at that.

[Angela Christine]

The Allanak government should rarely ever publicly use magick. They don't allow magickers to use magick in public not because they are feared of the damage the magicker could cause as they could quickly stop that, probably even a non-gemmer. They are afraid of the havoc and mayhem that would develop from magick being used openly. They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

No, it's just because they are jerks.  It is illegal to leave the temples while terminate and stay resident spells that are undetectable to mundanes are still in effect, even if they have no harmful effect and could -benefit- the city.  Detection spells, for example.  

Suppose you have a spell that lets you detect magickal or invisible things/people/creatures.  There shouldn't be anything like that inside the city, so if the magicker spotted something like that (and it wasn't attatched to a templar) then it would almost certainly be something illegal and potentially a threat to the city.  The militia aren't going to spot it, and Templars can't be everywhere, so why not let the elementalists burn their own mana looking for these things?  Because the Templarate are a bunch of jerks.  It is the only reasonable explanation.  

Sure, you don't want elementalists flying around shooting water fountains out their fingertips, everybody gets that.  But unnoticable detection and protection spells?  That's just small minded.  Petty jerks.


AC

[sacac]

I like war-machines.. But If I remember correctly..
if 9 men wern't wearing armor.. they could easily fit next to each other and kill someone with daggers

[Tamarin]

While arrows are flying around....and stray kanks are romping all over the place....with half-giants flinging people around.....and mantises ripping people apart...and big assed meks stomping on people....um....no.

[crymerci]

They are also afraid of magick becoming the norm or anything less then feared and loathed by the general public.

I see your point, but I'd have to disagree.  I do agree that magickers would be less likely to go out on your average patrol, but war is different.  In a war there is so much carnage and so many atrocities that even the use of magic would just seem like another shock among many.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Siege weapons are largely impractical on Zalanthas.  For one thing, they're heavy.  You'd have to either dismantle them and reassemble them every time you wanted to move them over long distances, or you'd have to build them on location.  You're just not going to be able to move one fully constructed over Zalanthan terrain, especially sand.

Then there's the availability of materials to consider.  Siege weapons require not just large quantities of raw materials, but massive raw materials to begin with.  Consider a simple siege weapon like a ballista or catapault.  I can see a torsion skein being developed to power one, but that requires either some really large bones or heavy wood beams in order to support the kind of forces that are going to be exerted on the weapon in order to get it to fire anything that is going to do reasonable structural damage.  You also don't get much in the way of reinforcing material - no metal to sheathe joints, protect crossbars, etc.  You'd be lucky if your weapon held together for more than a handful of times being fired.

However, after saying all that, I think there is one siege weapon that is practical for Zalanthas - the trebuchet.  It's low-impact, can be built on site fairly easily or deconstructed and transported.  It's very low-tech, yet effective all the same.  So, in my opinion, the most practical and effective siege weapon in the Zalanthan repetoire would be the trebuchet.

[creeper386]

Most early siege engines only lasted a few shots. Some not that long. Ussually killed the crew that maned it when it comes apart. Early cannons, early guns, early crossbows, were as likely to kill/maim the user then to injure the target. They still were used.

As for there being alot of carnage in war, and magick would just be one of the many atrocities... It still wouldn't be over looked. Death is common in Zalanthas. A horrible bloody death isn't too rare. Magick however is incredibly feared, supernatural fucking thing. It'd be worse then using a crossbow back in medievil times when the weapons was frowned upon by alot of people.

Heck, I'm sorry, but if your in the middle of a warrior, even now of days, with planes, bombs, guns and what have you. And someone blasts someone with lightning, a huge fiery ball or something, it's going to be noticed. Perhaps it'll be passed off as new technology. Zalanthas can't pass it off. They KNOW it's magick. Most think it the most horrible and evil thing ever. It isn't even legal to openly cast magick in any of civilization. Most places don't even ALLOW magickers to live... How does that go unnoticed as another attrocity?


Creeper

[Quirk]

Magick however is incredibly feared, supernatural fucking thing. It'd be worse then using a crossbow back in medievil times when the weapons was frowned upon by alot of people.

I think you've seriously got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Creeper. Firstly, templar magick is going to inspire those on the same side, not cause them to turn on their templars. Their Gods are performing miracles for them on the battlefield. People will be scared of it when it's turned against them, but not when their foes are being annihilated by it.

As far as gemmers go, the 'Nakki attitude to magick is a lot more relaxed than the North. Put simply, magick is not as feared in the South. Where the Houses and militia have combat mages, they frequently drill with the troops they would fight beside until they become accustomed to some degree to seeing magick in battle. That this is even possible is a result of the different mindset in the South from the North. Allanaki citizens have a superstitious awe of magick and a fear of it being turned against them; Tulukis have the hardened hatred of those who have seen their city destroyed by magick. The former can be and is much more easily overcome.

The problem is that people see magick as a black/white thing. However, not all magick will be feared equally, not all places or people will look on it the same way. There's a progression from the distrusted to the fearsome to the incarnations of devilry such as the Nilazi, the sorcerer and the mindbender. To treat a Vivaduan the same way as a sorcerer in a society where something is known about magickers (i.e. the South) argues a too-simplistic view of the game world to me.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

I don't think anyone here has been debating Templar magick...that is the magick given to the Templars by their God-King.  Of course that will inspire.

I think the debate is really over the devil-spawn elementalists (of all shapes, sizes and flavors) as well as sorcerers...and even in the South, they are still feared.  They are slightly better understood and they are tolerated...but I could still see random lynchings of gemmed magickers when someone's baby gets sick, because obviously, the magickers did it.  Shit like that should still happen in the South, and noone really knows what those demon-bred horrors are capable of...even if the players are, the characters are not.

[Stroker]

Gemmed magickers are gemmed and public for the following reasons:

a) To be kept under control by the templarate.
b) To be used when needed.

Since (a) is self explanatory I will explain (b) - From obvious accounts of players on the GDB and from my own personal, extensive experience, I can agree that they are indeed used. Otherwise templars wouldn't tell them to practice their magick nor would they be allowed to do so. Why the fuck do you think they're allowed to practice? For the sheer joy of it?

[Rindan]

I am hard pressed to see how this is even being debated.  In every single major military action Allanak has performed, magikers were used.  Not just templars, full blooded gemmed magikers.  I can't think of a single exception.  If there is a war and Allanak is involved, then so are gemmed.  Gemmed are an integral part of ANY Allanaki military operation.  In fact, I image one of the reasons why gemmed are kept around and in such relatively hospitable conditions is simply due to their utility, especially in war.  You can't argue against this, it is just a simple fact.  Allanak uses magikers and uses them liberally during war.  I imagine most in the Allanaki military would know this and I know all Tuluk would know this and chalk it up to another atrocity committed by the 'nakkies.

Now, should the average commoner like the fact that there is a magiker slinging spells next to him?  I imagine most commoners would have mixed feelings in times of war.  On one hand, they have a natural hate/fear towards magik.  On the other hand, that magik is being used on the enemy, and in war people tend to value survival above all else.  Sure, your magikers might make your troops shake a little extra, but the swath of destruction that just a few well trained elementalist can wreak is well worth a few jitters.  You sure as hell can bet that whatever terror your magikers are causing on your own troops is ten times worse for the receiving troops.  I imagine magikers are a very effective psychological weapon against enemy troops.  It might make your troops jittery, but it might make the enemy troops flat out panic and run.

People are making it sound like siege warfare (magikers or no) is common.  It isn't common.  No one is going to become accustom to magikers because they are used in battle.  Even the longest lived soldiers will see one, maybe two wars in their entire life time.  Allanak is not going to resort to using magikers out in the open on the streets to whack pick pockets, but if they are intending to blast down some walls or conduct any sort of major operation, you better believe they are going to bring a contingent of magikers along.  The policy makes perfect sense and sure as hell beats lugging around some less then terrifying but prohibitively expensive hunks of wood to build siege weapons wherever you go.

[Angela Christine]

I think the image of magickers as war weapons might be similar to the status of chemical weapons like mustard gas, napalm, clorine gas, etc.  Nobody thinks these weapons are a good idea, including many of the people creating them and ordering their use.  The damage they cause is awful and disturbing, so no one wants to occupy an area recently cleared by chemical weapons.  There is also a terrible risk, or percieved risk, of these weapons escaping containment, going out of control, and destroying your own people.  People don't like you if you use these weapons.  40 years later they will still remember how awful the destruction was.  You've seen the picture of the little vietnamese girl running down the road naked after being exposed to chemical weapons, right?  Soldiers don't feel proud of battles won using these things.  And yet, people do use them.

Magickers are like that.  Nobody is really happy about them, but some states still use them.  You don't feel warm and fuzzy about using them.  Between battles it is unsettling to think of them in storage in the temples, just lying there waiting to go off.  But they are undeniably useful, and Tek plays to win.

AC

Do things like catapaults or ballistas exist in Zalanthas?

No, they do not.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Things like that exist.

Sorry.

[Gilvar]

The closest equivalent would be a half-giant with a sling. Or in the case of balista, give it a spear.

[Mr.Camel]

... Or a heavily armored dwarf.

[spawnloser]

... Or a heavily armored dwarf.

As in to give the heavily armored dwarf to the half-giant?  I can see that.  :twisted:

[jhunter]

A heavily armored dwarf flies in from the west.

The wiry, wide-eyed cadet is struck with a heavily armored dwarf!

Blood splatters all over you!

The wiry, wide-eyed cadet crumples to the ground.

lo w

near
[nothing]
far
[nothing]
very far
The hulking, hare-lipped half-giant stands here.

think Oh shit!

[X-D]

Thats the heavy artillary.

I prefer the machine gun style.

A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking the short cadet in the head.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking the short cadet in the neck.
The short cadet crumbles to the ground
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.

A spear clutching painted halfling gets to her feet.
A spear clutching painted halfling gets to her feet.

l N
near
[nothing]
far
[nothing]
very far
A grinning one-eyed half-giant stands here aiming a spear clutching painted halfling south.

Think WTF?

A spear clutching painted halfling stabs you hard on the foot!
A spear clutching painted halfling stabs you on the arm!

A heavily armored dwarf groans and gets to his feet.
A heavily armored dwarf scrambles to his feet.

A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking you in the leg!
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north and hits your shield!
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A heavily armored dwarf flies in from the east striking you in the head!
You land on your back!

Think Shit!

Beep!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

LMFAO.

[YellowCactus]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
While arrows are flying around....and stray kanks are romping all over the place....with half-giants flinging people around.....and mantises ripping people apart...and big assed meks stomping on people....um....no.

War code would take "Way" too many beloved coders away from building the game!  I'd be overjoyed if the Imms would set up room 'affects' like the new additions to the Allanaki Markets and Tuluki streets.  They'd have to know which sections of the world the fighting would go down in....but some chaotic battle affects would be enough for me.
Yc

[Uglyhead]

I dunno. I always thought that a particularly strong Half-Giant, armed with an oversized sling and a suitably large stone could probably do considerable damage, perhaps even approaching catapult-esque damage, and at a fraction of the cost.

[karpuz]

Oh... Great Muk! Please add the halfling thingie! It rocks!

[Tarx04]

And if kanks could fly, I could see a projectile attack waiting to happen.

[amish overlord]

I had a character that was an inventor/alchemist. He drew up designs for a catapult and a balista. He also had invented a rat trap as well. He never got around to building his catapult or balista, but he had one drawn up ICly and his own code(hehehehe templars never arrested me for symbols on my drawings, secret writing i only knew) Now this wasn't actually coded writing just things my character made up.

Amish overlord  

[jmordetsky]

*long post alert*

I was thinking about war code the other day, and how it could be done without rewriting the combat code.

I witnessed once a while ago, an NPC who's short desc was "A unit of *GroupName* troops."

I was thinking with the right combat, movement and  associated emotes and a good ldescs this could be fairly cool.

****A unit of Borsail Wyverns arrives from the east, marching in quite unison.
****A unit of Borsail Wyverns stands here in tight formation.

In combat replace all the viscously strikes your head, wounds your neck stuff with the appropriate keywords

****A unit of Borsail Wyverns makes a solid assault against the flank of a unit of Byn Mercenaries

****A unit of Byn Mercenaries fends off an assault from a unit of Borsail Wyverns


Now, some trouble arises when little old me and you, a single human, tries to take on a "Unit" NPC. This obviously should not happen. There should be a flag or something preventing this saying "Attacking a unit of Borsail Wyverns would be suicide" and if you continued well....see ya. On the contrary, a unit could easily maul a single PC and should have combat stats to reflect such.

Now, this brings me to siege weapons. These could be similar, in that the NPC titles would be "A Wyvern manned siege catapult." Or something of that nature.

Of course the "Siege Weapon Unit NPC" would have lower melee scores (hit points etc) to reflect less close combat oriented troops then a standard unit NPC.  

However, what these things could do, is throw big things really far. Which is (correct me if I'm wrong) just increasing the damage of the item it's throwing...?

Maybe instead of an rock doing 1-6 hp of damage it does 20-500 points of damn making it suitable for an attack on another Unit NPC.

You could then increase the throw rocks weight so that only something with the strength of the unit NPC could pick one up.

This wouldn't allow for the descruction of walls and villages, but it would allow for fields of unit NPCs to start fighting one another in close combat and siege weapon npcs to fling rocks at each other.

Lots of details to fill in here, but I think the theory is sound.

Thoughts?

[jhunter]

I like this, its sounds good to me...use something similar to those units just set up to use a powerful ranged attack instead.

A Tuluki ballista crew is here, loading a ballista.

Stuff like that...sounds cool.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

JM, this is a good idea. There is just one exception. While I am not certian just how many people a Zalanthian Unit consists of, I would not say, with complete certainity, that one or two uber-PCs could not take one on. Lets say, a master swordsman, layered in armor, or, a maxxed half-giant warrior in silt-horror armor.

The latter is probably close to the most dangerous thing on the face of the Known World. Although there will be arguments about how many NPCs a single PC of any race should be able to take on, I personally like the 'high-fantasy' of a single warrior of uber-porportions being able to carve his or her way through opponents.

On the whole, however, I certianly am for the change in unit battle messages, and the introduction of the catapalt machines you suggest.

[jhunter]

Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.

[jmordetsky]

JM, this is a good idea. There is just one exception. While I am not certian just how many people a Zalanthian Unit consists of, I would not say, with complete certainity, that one or two uber-PCs could not take one on. Lets say, a master swordsman, layered in armor, or, a maxxed half-giant warrior in silt-horror armor.

The latter is probably close to the most dangerous thing on the face of the Known World. Although there will be arguments about how many NPCs a single PC of any race should be able to take on, I personally like the 'high-fantasy' of a single warrior of uber-porportions being able to carve his or her way through opponents.

On the whole, however, I certianly am for the change in unit battle messages, and the introduction of the catapalt machines you suggest.

Agreed, I think it really depends on how many people are in the unit...10, definately, 20 still, 50 maybe, 100 we're pushing it, thousands...no way.

For the non-ballista/catapult type units I was picturing them in the thousands. That could be my own perceptions, and unrealistic. Either way I see your point.

Maybe it comes down to unit npc just having very high stats and skills the more soliders, the more ++.

From this point of view "a small unit of Borsail Wyverns" may be bested by a feral half giant with the 300 pound battleaxe. But the same giant might be swarmed by a "a huge unit of Borsail Wyverns"

This is a beit more flexible, good point.

[jmordetsky]

Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.

Or even a PC. If the unit is like the PC guards that exist and responds to the (order?) command.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.


Or even a PC. If the unit is like the PC guards that exist and responds to the (order?) command.

Yep, that could be interesting as well. Could assign different pc leaders charge of different units and crews and such, good stuff.

[Anarchy]

*points to below message*

[Anarchy]

A shame the idea of ballistas are dismissed. Even smaller scale types.

Just think about it - a sled mounted ballista drawn by a kank or a pair of Erdlu. Used to take down Mek from a distance - perhaps to hunt Salt worms and Silt horrors by tieing a rope to the bolt and draw it in close, perhaps even used to damage wagons - A inix drawn merchant wagon is chased by a group of bandits on a sled mounted Ballista, the bandits shooting flash-powder tipped bolts- Oh, raider joy.

It reeks of Mad-Max its sexy.

[AaronG]

Yes...interesting...indeed interesting













:shock:

[Gilvar]

Interesting yes, but feasible no.

The ideaology, technology, knowledge, materials, and nescessity do not exist.

[Clegane]

Just a counterpoint, Gilvar, to your response. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on the subject, but thought I'd make a few interesting observations:

Idealogy: There are longbows, composite longbows, crossbows, complex hand-crossbows, walled cities, towers, and warfare. Without getting too IC here, I'll mention that large beasts have, in the past, been used (by the Staff) as mobile battering rams to smash down gates.  Personally, I think that all the ideological components to utilize siege warfare are present.

Technology: Zalanthas contains a functional sewer system, giant fortress-wagons, glassblowing, complicated instrument-making, extremely complex missile weaponry, intricate armor designs, advanced architecture, the written word, optometry, locks so intricate and convoluted that no thief or locksmith can pick them (regardless of materials or ability) vessels that skim across silt, and a host of other 'miraculous' innovations that seem far more anachronstic than low-grade siege weaponry.

Knowledge: Allanak has a noble House and an entire Academy dedicated exclusively to the advancement, study, and preparation of warfare. This House also has access to the written records spanning centuries of escalating conflict.

Materials: Please clarify what materials a ballista needs that any one of the dozens of missile weapons in the game do not. Complex metallurgy would be helpful, but certainly not a necessity to design a siege weapon of this scale.

Necessity: Again, there are walled cities and there are hostile invasions. What more need could there be for the progressive advancement of warfare?

Once again, I'm not necessarily advocating the advent of seige engines in Armageddon...only bringing up a few possible counterpoints to the reasons that you provide as to why the idea is infeasible.

I will say, however, that for a society wherein natural selection is -so- critical, the fact that thousands of years of conflict, combined with the other points I mentioned, have not yielded any more progressive developments in warfare would indicate that Zalanthans, as a whole, are pretty damned slow to adjust and adapt. Or at least not half as smart as they like to think they are.

All of this aside, I realize that Nessalin has stated directly that siege weaponry, per say, does not exist in Zalanthas. I am neither disputing nor questioning his answer, only responding academically to Gilvar's brief explanation of the rationale behind it.

[Black Isis]

I think the biggest reason not to have siege weapons developed is really the existence of magick.  If you can turn the wall of a city to mud, or crash balls of fire down from the sky on your enemies, why would you bother developing ballistae or catapults which don't work as well?  The Greeks had enough knowledge that they could have built steam engines if they had to, but there wasn't really any reason for them to do so.  If magick is an easier way to do things, why bother with the hard way?

In addition, I think the idea of "unit" NPCs is a bad idea.  You're essentially making an NPC who's only purpose is to fight other NPCs (or engage in the mass slaughter of PCs).  I would much rather see "unrealistic" wars where a few dozen PCs and NPCs slug it out in a token battle for somewhere than just see a bunch of NPCs slugging it out and waiting for the end to see what happens.

[Clegane]

BlackIsis: Two reasons, my friend, without getting too IC.

1. Magick is not infallible. Quite far from it, actually, as more than one large force has learned to their dismay in times past.

2. Magick is not prevalent everywhere in the Known World. In fact, its pretty common knowledge that one of the world's two major super-powers rarely, if ever, publically incorporates magick.

I can certainly see the validity of your point. On many levels, certain powers would indeed be better served by focusing solely on their magickal warfare aspects. But there are also other factions who would benefit far more from the advent of seige warfare.

[Gilvar]

Technology: The technology is advanced (though I will admit some are simple) mathematics and physics. People like Euclid and Issac Newton have no Zalanthan counterparts, while terms like triangle and square may exist in Zalanthas, no one would know that a square is exactly even on all sides, they may have an idea of it appearing to be an even sided thing, but they'd have no scientific bases for this. They'd not understand in any great degree center of balance, and many other things that seem common in modern day. People do not have the technological basis for the creation of any complicated siege weapon. Battering rams really do not deserve the term, they are a weapon used in sieges about as much as a small pebble would be, if it were thrown at the wall. Its almost instinctual to ram a larger thing against something to break it.

Knowledge: While yes some people do study it, the environment of Zalanthas has neither a background in, or conduciveness to advanced thinking. You will find little if any accountable pursuits of knowledge in things like philosophy, math, physics, morality, etc. More recently some things have been done in Tuluk, but education is not a Zalanthan high-point. Few people can read or write, and that includes blue-prints or directions on constructing massive weapons of war. Nobles almost exclusively control the ability to read and write, and few would bother working with teams to build things like this (I say few, because some would). They live under the magickal protection of their God and with the exception of each other (tuluk and allanak) there are few if any viable enemies, and magick has proven to be the siege weaponry of the ages. On another note, Try building a catapult from scratch with maybe just a picture. No measurements, words, etc.

Materials... a ballista, of any substantial size, would require a good deal of PLIABLE (not gangly scrub) wood. Something durable to hold the frame together (maybe glue or rope, but even glue is rare), and then the mechanical pieces nescessary in loading, pulling and firing. So this is pretty much ruled out in the south, a wagon-load of processed wood, glue, and rope could maybe build a single small ballista. And probably cost easily several 10s of thousands of sid. Its basically building something as complex if not more so then a simple wagon, which can cost up to and beyond 50,000 obsidian. Not to mention the large wooden or bone spears it would fire. (Archery would be cheaper, and its deemed too expensive).


Nescessity: Every war in Zalanthan history has relied on magick as its turning point. There have been few if any encounters in known history that would've required a siege-engine over the magick of a highly skilled team of templars, or one ultimate sorceror-king. A 2,000,000 sid team of ballistas and catapults seems wasteful when Tek has in the past laid an entire city of probably 100s of thousands of people beneath the sands, brought an entire mine down around a single being, and laid waste to an army single-handedly. So while a siege engine may be useful for smaller places without a great Tek, it also exacerbates above problems.
-A catapult would be useful in a small tribal place where it could wreak unspeakable damage on a small mud-brick enemy tribe, but at the same time the knowledge, materials, and technology would also be less.


The other issues are training people to use them (knowledge is bad). Would you, mister noble fancy-pants want to train a team of slaves to operate a highly destructive (and monumentally expensive) device? I wouldn't.

Anyways, hope that clears up my brief above answer.

[jhunter]

*snickers*

Hey Tek old buddy...mind blowing up that fortress over there for me?

Yeah I know....couldn't figure out how to make a bigass slingshot too hurl a boulder through it's walls.

Wha?

Nope, couldn't chop down enough trees or connect enough chitin together to make a big fucking bow either.


Oh those half-giants? Well...we just keep them around to look scary.

[X-D]

Jhunter...snicker.


Um, Gilver, as somebody else stated, basicly that whole post does not hold sand man.

We have HUGE and I mean HUGE wagons in game, take a look at any of them, none are made of "gangly" scrub wood, matter of fact, most are ornatly carved and described as being made from large planks, most have -solid- wood wheels, these also require a heavy axel of wood, all the materials and science needed to make any of the seige weapons, catapults, trebuchet, ballista. There are a few pyramids, the fact that they exist means that mathamatics is refined (just do a little research on earth pyramids to find out)

Course, if half-giants could throw large spears and rocks 3 rooms, then yes, I'd say no reason to waste valueable resources like wood on seige weapons, just use the ones you have walking around, but they can't, more is the pity.

The way you state it though, there is no need for nak or tuluk to have armies at all......hhhhmmm, Really, there is no reason...But oh, wait the last THREE major battles involved armies and rather little magick and could very well have utilized seige weaponry if it existed.

[Rindan]

The way you state it though, there is no need for nak or tuluk to have armies at all......hhhhmmm, Really, there is no reason...But oh, wait the last THREE major battles involved armies and rather little magick and could very well have utilized seige weaponry if it existed.

If you are going to site previous wars, then you should at least realize how they were fought.  First, in all major battles that have happened with the exception of the Ironsword revolt, they lasted less then a week.   No side was ever in danger of being starved out.  There was no true siege warfare with the exception of the 40 year 'siege' of the Muk's pyramid.  I imagine it is pretty safe to assume that if the pyramid was not nuked to a cinder via magik, a few boulders or oversized crossbow bolts were not going to be any threat.

In every instance, the armies that attacked were highly mobile.  These are not lumbering lines of troops that spend a week getting to their destination, stop outside of their destination, suit up into heavy gear, then after a few weeks of preparation launch an assault.  These armies arrived to their destinations mounted or in wagons and paused before their goals only long enough to dismount and attack.  These are highly mobile armies that have no time to spend setting up siege weapons or enduring the nightmare of dragging siege weapons across the desert.

When the battles occurred, they occurred as soon as the assaulting army was able to dismount and form the resemblance of a line.  They assaulted the gates and in every case managed to not only breach the gates, but breach them very quickly despite the lack of siege weaponry.  In most cases, the gates were breached through one magikal means or another.  The simple fact of the matter was that not only is magik quicker, cheaper, and more mobile, but it is drastically more destructive and effective at siege warfare.  It takes days and some times even months for dozens of siege weapons to bring down a wall or gate.  It takes magik hours and minutes to do the same thing.

In all three battles that occurred siege weapons would have not have even had the time to set up, much less spend the days it takes to knock down a wall.  They would have been of no use and, compared to magik, trivial to counter.  Any siege weapon would need its own magik defense or the first Krathi to peak over the walls is just going to light it on fire without getting into harms way.

So, in conclusion, siege weapons are too slow, too weak, to expensive, and too defenseless to be used in Zalanthas effectively.  Not only are they all those things, they STILL require magikers to defend them.  What is the point of having a weak and under powered weapon that still demands the protection of magikers?  There is no point to a siege weapon for any society that has the capacity to build one.  Magikers are better spent defending soldiers from other magikers, reigning destruction, and blasting open gates in a fraction of the time it takes a siege weapon, then they are being used to defend very weak and very expensive weapons that undermine the very concept of Zalanthas warfare with their slow expensive bulk.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Another point is that Zalanthian societies are based on tradition, not capitalism.

In a tradition based society, innovation is rare, inventors have not yet been invented, and change is all but nonexistant.

[jmordetsky]

Sort of like there being no need for a telephone system because we have the Way.

I won't get started on how I feel about the way, but I think the Magick vs Siege weapons argument holds ground.

[Chac]

Another point is that Zalanthian societies are based on tradition, not capitalism.

In a tradition based society, innovation is rare, inventors have not yet been invented, and change is all but nonexistant.

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

[EvilRoeSlade]

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of african tribes, but the Soviet Union is not a tradition based society.  At any rate, the making of iron tools has little to do with change.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

I was merely using a capitalistic economy as a contrast to a tradition based economy.  The point isn't that you need to be capitalistic for your society to change, the point is that if your society is tradition based, a thousand years can go by and it will still fundementally be the same until it is destroyed outright.

[Chac]

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of african tribes, but the Soviet Union is not a tradition based society.  At any rate, the making of iron tools has little to do with change.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

I was merely using a capitalistic economy as a contrast to a tradition based economy.  The point isn't that you need to be capitalistic for your society to change, the point is that if your society is tradition based, a thousand years can go by and it will still fundementally be the same until it is destroyed outright.

My argument is that the iron tools came from somewhere, and societies based on tradition change too.  If possibly more slowly.

I brought up the soviets, because they were obviously not capitalist.

I don't think capitalism has anything to do with innovation necessarily.

I think that by looking at the world of armageddon it's obvious a lot of inovation has already gone on, so I don't see why more would be a problem.  Wagons, locks, extremely complex heirarchy based nation states, very function specific tools, writing, all these things came from somewhere.

[Chac]

Actually, come to think of it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

[EvilRoeSlade]

My argument is that the iron tools came from somewhere, and societies based on tradition change too.  If possibly more slowly.

If you took a look at Mideval feudal lords and the serfs who worked their lands, and then took another look at them four-hundred years later, nothing would be different.  Change is not just slowed in a tradition based society, it is tackled to the ground and brought into a strangle hold where it then begins feebly wriggling to escape.

I don't think capitalism has anything to do with innovation necessarily.

It creates an environment where innovation can survive.  So yes, it does have to do with innovation.  If you're saying that it isn't the only economic system capable of harboring innovation than yes, I agree with you.

I think that by looking at the world of armageddon it's obvious a lot of inovation has already gone on, so I don't see why more would be a problem.  Wagons, locks, extremely complex heirarchy based nation states, very function specific tools, writing, all these things came from somewhere.

That's not change within one society.  All those innovations came from a societal upheaval, namely when the sorceror kings conquered tribes in the area and built their city states.

[Gaare]

isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

No they are not since

(i)   everything belongs to Kings..
(ii)  No ordinary citizen can have land or a place.
(iii) Bank is not giving loans to make investment since there is no investment that citizen can make in terms of goods..

[EvilRoeSlade]

Actually, come to think of it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

Definitely not.

All positions of power, even within merchant houses, is based on privilege of birth.

That is tradition, tradition, tradition.

[Larrath]

Invention is usually the result of need.  Either that or a freak accident.

While it is possible that maybe House Tor would want some machinery to destroy walls, but nothing is going to be as effective as a small coven of Rukkians can just make, uhh...

Dig a bigass tunnel under the wall and make it collapse, or make the sand drag it to places, or insult its mother really really nastily and make it cry.

I do think that most people would prefer to use either magickers or half-giants.  It will probably be very difficult to use a catapult when there's a ton of sand flying around, and the winds could just tip the larger seige engines over.

[Chac]

Invention is usually the result of need.  Either that or a freak accident.

While it is possible that maybe House Tor would want some machinery to destroy walls, but nothing is going to be as effective as a small coven of Rukkians can just make, uhh...

Dig a bigass tunnel under the wall and make it collapse, or make the sand drag it to places, or insult its mother really really nastily and make it cry.

I do think that most people would prefer to use either magickers or half-giants.  It will probably be very difficult to use a catapult when there's a ton of sand flying around, and the winds could just tip the larger seige engines over.

Yeah, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with this sort of argument.

While I think it's -possible- that catapults could be developed on arm, I really don't see that the need outweighs the cost.

[X-D]

Rindan, Your arguement only holds water for places that use/have magickers, Some do not use them, so saying you need magickers to defend underpowered seige weapons is null and untrue, and in the cases of ones that don't use magickers, seige weapons would not be under powered nor would it take very long for people to figure out flash powder and a trebrechet(spelled wrong I'm sure) Have a gate down in minutes. Add to that the place that does not use magick has tons of resources for said seige weapons.

[Rindan]

Rindan, Your arguement only holds water for places that use/have magickers, Some do not use them, so saying you need magickers to defend underpowered seige weapons is null and untrue, and in the cases of ones that don't use magickers, seige weapons would not be under powered nor would it take very long for people to figure out flash powder and a trebrechet(spelled wrong I'm sure) Have a gate down in minutes. Add to that the place that does not use magick has tons of resources for said seige weapons.

Name one place that does not use magikers, that has to deal with walls that need a siege weapon, AND has the scentific ability to actually make one.  The answer is that there exist no such group in common knowledge.  Tuluk and Allanak are the only places in the known world with the kind of literacy and wealth to build such exotic weapons.  So stupid desert elf tribe in the wastes that refuses to use magikers is not going to have the knowledge to build such a weapon, much less ever run into a wall worthy of using a weapon like that on.

There exists very few places and tribes that do not use magik in one form or another.  No one may like having to use magik, but almost everyone does it.  More to the point though, in common knowledge there is no place that has walls that demand a siege weapon, that does not have any magikers involved in battle, that are wealthy enough to build such a weapon, that are fighting an opponent who also lacks magikers, and that have the technical knowledge to build such a weapon.

So, unless there exists a tribe of rich literates with high technical knowledge and no magikers who wage war on another tribe with a walled fortress worthy of such a weapon that also lacks magikers, siege weapons seem rather silly for anyone to own.

[spawnloser]

Just to play devil's advocate, Tuluk does not use magickers and has plenty of wood to make siege weapons from...and may just want to have them to break down someone's walls.

[Twilight]

I have no idea if the mantis have magickers, but maybe they would want seige engines when they decide to eat all those silly northerners.  Or vice versa.

[Anonymous]

Just to play devil's advocate, Tuluk does not use magickers and has plenty of wood to make siege weapons from...and may just want to have them to break down someone's walls.

That is utterly wrong.  Tuluk does use magik.  They do not counter Allanaki magik with good thoughts and cheer.  Just think about it for a few seconds.  If Tuluk didn't use magik, why wouldn't Allanak just send in two Whirians and let them destroy the place?  Does Tuluk use magik openly?  No, not even with their templars?  Do they have magik?  They have a freaking God King and Templars who are there for more then just looking scary - and that is just the stuff that is commonly known, you answer the question.  

Also recall that during the retaking Tuluk some how managed to blast open the gates of Tuluk (without siege weapons I might add).  I'll give you a hint how they did it, they didn't use snuggles or loves to do it.

[Sacac's ghost]

Do northerners eat meat? If they don't it would be hard to eat those damned mantis.  :lol:

I happen to think even the smallest of tribes could make a relatively simple siege weapon, I mean how hard could it be to tie a log to a couple kanks and charge an enemies camp, to knock through and over several buildings?

With that, they might not know how to make a trebuchet, or a ballista, or a basilisk, But they could probably build ram-like weapons to knock things over and brake them.

[Kukichiro will not login]

Forgive my stupidity, but what is a basilisk? Isn't that some Snakey-dog looking ancient mystical creature that could turn you to stone if you looked it in the eye?

If it isn't then yea, or if that is also, what is a -siege engine- basilisk?

Just curious is all, thanks : )

[Gilvar]

they mean ballista I think

[Angela Christine]

Tuluk doesn't go in for vulgar displays of magick, but that doesn't mean they don't have any.  I mean, they have freaks with tentical-mouths, what's a little magick next to that?    Still, since Tulukis are not used to magick, they might go ahead and build artillery because a catapult will reasure your people without freaking them out.

A basilisk seige engine would involve building a moble tower and setting a basilisk on top of it.  That way the basilisk could see over the wall to turn people to stone.  No point having a basilisk that can't see the enemy.


AC

[X-D]

Name one place that does not use magikers, that has to deal with walls that need a siege weapon, AND has the scentific ability to actually make one. The answer is that there exist no such group in common knowledge. Tuluk and Allanak are the only places in the known world with the kind of literacy and wealth to build such exotic weapons. So stupid desert elf tribe in the wastes that refuses to use magikers is not going to have the knowledge to build such a weapon, much less ever run into a wall worthy of using a weapon like that on.

Spawnloser already answered this but I'll take it a bit farther.

Tuluk does not use magickers, the practice of magick in and around tuluk is illegal except for the templarate and magickers of any type are to be killed on sight by the legion. And considering that Tuluk is one of the cities that even you state as having the wealth/knowledge/power to build such weapons...... Not to mention an abundance of materials.

[Carnage]

Also recall that during the retaking Tuluk some how managed to blast open the gates of Tuluk (without siege weapons I might add). I'll give you a hint how they did it, they didn't use snuggles or loves to do it.

Flash powder.

[Rindan]

Tuluk does not use magickers, the practice of magick in and around tuluk is illegal except for the templarate and magickers of any type are to be killed on sight by the legion. And considering that Tuluk is one of the cities that even you state as having the wealth/knowledge/power to build such weapons...... Not to mention an abundance of materials.

Templars fall very squarely into the 'magikal' category.  Even if they didn't and even if Tuluk had not a single magik wielding person in the lot of them, then there would be the obvious problem that their main enemy, Allanak, does hold a rather large number of magikers.  What happens when you combine a single Allanaki Krathi and a few million 'sid worth of siege engines?  A very large camp fire.

Tuluk would be foolish to run around with siege weapons.  A big bulky siege engine made of wood is a very large and obvious target for the first 'nakkie magiker to wiggle his finger at it.  Any such engine is going to need magikal defense if it intends to be thrown up against a magikal army, which Allanak very much is.  Wherever there is a battle that Allanak is involved with, always, without exception, they bring along a horde of magikers.  

So, unless the Tuluki templars feel like spending their time trying desperately to fend of magikal attacks to their rather large and obvious siege engines instead of doing useful, like tearing down the walls themselves, a siege engine serves no other purpose then to keep the troops warm at night as they burn.

Just going off of common knowledge, it is common knowledge that Tuluk makes use of magik.  The difference is that they are generally not so blatant as Allanak.  The rebels managed to breach the walls of Tuluk easily in the last war and they didn't do it by setting up siege weapons and pounding on the walls for a few days.  Tuluk managed to some how neutralize the magikal component of Allanak's army enough to win.  Tuluk found itself a loyal mutant freaking army.  This isn't a deep dark well of IC knowledge I am gushing.  This is all commonly known stuff.  Most people should be able to put two and two together and realize that Tuluk has magik working to keep the cogs running and Allanak from over running them.

Siege weapons are silly, expensive, and foolish for armies that don't siege and use magik as the ultimate siege weapon.  Magik IS the ultimate siege weapon, and any power worth its salt has them.

[X-D]

At this point I'm going to leave off as pretty much anything I use to argue is far to IC to mention, though in the one battle you mention, very little, if any magick was used.

[sacac]

Basilisk is a cannon, Or so people from where I live call them

[Gilvar]

That's kinda weird. I did a google and various dictionary searches and came up with nothing but dragon/serpents.

[sacac]

hm.. Slang words aren't very good then.. *Shrug* Or.. I'm not willing to admit myself wrong..  :lol:
Anyways.. I don't see any problem with small scale siege weapons.

[Kankman]

Basilisk is a cannon, Or so people from where I live call them

are you thinking balistic?

[jhunter]

I think I've heard the term used to describe a cannon before...although I think it may have been the name for a specific one or something.

[jmordetsky]

Quote: are you thinking balistic?

*cackles*

Awesome.