Siege Weapons

[Anarchy]

A shame the idea of ballistas are dismissed. Even smaller scale types.

Just think about it - a sled mounted ballista drawn by a kank or a pair of Erdlu. Used to take down Mek from a distance - perhaps to hunt Salt worms and Silt horrors by tieing a rope to the bolt and draw it in close, perhaps even used to damage wagons - A inix drawn merchant wagon is chased by a group of bandits on a sled mounted Ballista, the bandits shooting flash-powder tipped bolts- Oh, raider joy.

It reeks of Mad-Max its sexy.

[AaronG]

Yes...interesting...indeed interesting













:shock:

[Gilvar]

Interesting yes, but feasible no.

The ideaology, technology, knowledge, materials, and nescessity do not exist.

[Clegane]

Just a counterpoint, Gilvar, to your response. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on the subject, but thought I'd make a few interesting observations:

Idealogy: There are longbows, composite longbows, crossbows, complex hand-crossbows, walled cities, towers, and warfare. Without getting too IC here, I'll mention that large beasts have, in the past, been used (by the Staff) as mobile battering rams to smash down gates.  Personally, I think that all the ideological components to utilize siege warfare are present.

Technology: Zalanthas contains a functional sewer system, giant fortress-wagons, glassblowing, complicated instrument-making, extremely complex missile weaponry, intricate armor designs, advanced architecture, the written word, optometry, locks so intricate and convoluted that no thief or locksmith can pick them (regardless of materials or ability) vessels that skim across silt, and a host of other 'miraculous' innovations that seem far more anachronstic than low-grade siege weaponry.

Knowledge: Allanak has a noble House and an entire Academy dedicated exclusively to the advancement, study, and preparation of warfare. This House also has access to the written records spanning centuries of escalating conflict.

Materials: Please clarify what materials a ballista needs that any one of the dozens of missile weapons in the game do not. Complex metallurgy would be helpful, but certainly not a necessity to design a siege weapon of this scale.

Necessity: Again, there are walled cities and there are hostile invasions. What more need could there be for the progressive advancement of warfare?

Once again, I'm not necessarily advocating the advent of seige engines in Armageddon...only bringing up a few possible counterpoints to the reasons that you provide as to why the idea is infeasible.

I will say, however, that for a society wherein natural selection is -so- critical, the fact that thousands of years of conflict, combined with the other points I mentioned, have not yielded any more progressive developments in warfare would indicate that Zalanthans, as a whole, are pretty damned slow to adjust and adapt. Or at least not half as smart as they like to think they are.

All of this aside, I realize that Nessalin has stated directly that siege weaponry, per say, does not exist in Zalanthas. I am neither disputing nor questioning his answer, only responding academically to Gilvar's brief explanation of the rationale behind it.

[Black Isis]

I think the biggest reason not to have siege weapons developed is really the existence of magick.  If you can turn the wall of a city to mud, or crash balls of fire down from the sky on your enemies, why would you bother developing ballistae or catapults which don't work as well?  The Greeks had enough knowledge that they could have built steam engines if they had to, but there wasn't really any reason for them to do so.  If magick is an easier way to do things, why bother with the hard way?

In addition, I think the idea of "unit" NPCs is a bad idea.  You're essentially making an NPC who's only purpose is to fight other NPCs (or engage in the mass slaughter of PCs).  I would much rather see "unrealistic" wars where a few dozen PCs and NPCs slug it out in a token battle for somewhere than just see a bunch of NPCs slugging it out and waiting for the end to see what happens.

[Clegane]

BlackIsis: Two reasons, my friend, without getting too IC.

1. Magick is not infallible. Quite far from it, actually, as more than one large force has learned to their dismay in times past.

2. Magick is not prevalent everywhere in the Known World. In fact, its pretty common knowledge that one of the world's two major super-powers rarely, if ever, publically incorporates magick.

I can certainly see the validity of your point. On many levels, certain powers would indeed be better served by focusing solely on their magickal warfare aspects. But there are also other factions who would benefit far more from the advent of seige warfare.

[Gilvar]

Technology: The technology is advanced (though I will admit some are simple) mathematics and physics. People like Euclid and Issac Newton have no Zalanthan counterparts, while terms like triangle and square may exist in Zalanthas, no one would know that a square is exactly even on all sides, they may have an idea of it appearing to be an even sided thing, but they'd have no scientific bases for this. They'd not understand in any great degree center of balance, and many other things that seem common in modern day. People do not have the technological basis for the creation of any complicated siege weapon. Battering rams really do not deserve the term, they are a weapon used in sieges about as much as a small pebble would be, if it were thrown at the wall. Its almost instinctual to ram a larger thing against something to break it.

Knowledge: While yes some people do study it, the environment of Zalanthas has neither a background in, or conduciveness to advanced thinking. You will find little if any accountable pursuits of knowledge in things like philosophy, math, physics, morality, etc. More recently some things have been done in Tuluk, but education is not a Zalanthan high-point. Few people can read or write, and that includes blue-prints or directions on constructing massive weapons of war. Nobles almost exclusively control the ability to read and write, and few would bother working with teams to build things like this (I say few, because some would). They live under the magickal protection of their God and with the exception of each other (tuluk and allanak) there are few if any viable enemies, and magick has proven to be the siege weaponry of the ages. On another note, Try building a catapult from scratch with maybe just a picture. No measurements, words, etc.

Materials... a ballista, of any substantial size, would require a good deal of PLIABLE (not gangly scrub) wood. Something durable to hold the frame together (maybe glue or rope, but even glue is rare), and then the mechanical pieces nescessary in loading, pulling and firing. So this is pretty much ruled out in the south, a wagon-load of processed wood, glue, and rope could maybe build a single small ballista. And probably cost easily several 10s of thousands of sid. Its basically building something as complex if not more so then a simple wagon, which can cost up to and beyond 50,000 obsidian. Not to mention the large wooden or bone spears it would fire. (Archery would be cheaper, and its deemed too expensive).


Nescessity: Every war in Zalanthan history has relied on magick as its turning point. There have been few if any encounters in known history that would've required a siege-engine over the magick of a highly skilled team of templars, or one ultimate sorceror-king. A 2,000,000 sid team of ballistas and catapults seems wasteful when Tek has in the past laid an entire city of probably 100s of thousands of people beneath the sands, brought an entire mine down around a single being, and laid waste to an army single-handedly. So while a siege engine may be useful for smaller places without a great Tek, it also exacerbates above problems.
-A catapult would be useful in a small tribal place where it could wreak unspeakable damage on a small mud-brick enemy tribe, but at the same time the knowledge, materials, and technology would also be less.


The other issues are training people to use them (knowledge is bad). Would you, mister noble fancy-pants want to train a team of slaves to operate a highly destructive (and monumentally expensive) device? I wouldn't.

Anyways, hope that clears up my brief above answer.

[jhunter]

*snickers*

Hey Tek old buddy...mind blowing up that fortress over there for me?

Yeah I know....couldn't figure out how to make a bigass slingshot too hurl a boulder through it's walls.

Wha?

Nope, couldn't chop down enough trees or connect enough chitin together to make a big fucking bow either.


Oh those half-giants? Well...we just keep them around to look scary.

[X-D]

Jhunter...snicker.


Um, Gilver, as somebody else stated, basicly that whole post does not hold sand man.

We have HUGE and I mean HUGE wagons in game, take a look at any of them, none are made of "gangly" scrub wood, matter of fact, most are ornatly carved and described as being made from large planks, most have -solid- wood wheels, these also require a heavy axel of wood, all the materials and science needed to make any of the seige weapons, catapults, trebuchet, ballista. There are a few pyramids, the fact that they exist means that mathamatics is refined (just do a little research on earth pyramids to find out)

Course, if half-giants could throw large spears and rocks 3 rooms, then yes, I'd say no reason to waste valueable resources like wood on seige weapons, just use the ones you have walking around, but they can't, more is the pity.

The way you state it though, there is no need for nak or tuluk to have armies at all......hhhhmmm, Really, there is no reason...But oh, wait the last THREE major battles involved armies and rather little magick and could very well have utilized seige weaponry if it existed.

[Rindan]

The way you state it though, there is no need for nak or tuluk to have armies at all......hhhhmmm, Really, there is no reason...But oh, wait the last THREE major battles involved armies and rather little magick and could very well have utilized seige weaponry if it existed.

If you are going to site previous wars, then you should at least realize how they were fought.  First, in all major battles that have happened with the exception of the Ironsword revolt, they lasted less then a week.   No side was ever in danger of being starved out.  There was no true siege warfare with the exception of the 40 year 'siege' of the Muk's pyramid.  I imagine it is pretty safe to assume that if the pyramid was not nuked to a cinder via magik, a few boulders or oversized crossbow bolts were not going to be any threat.

In every instance, the armies that attacked were highly mobile.  These are not lumbering lines of troops that spend a week getting to their destination, stop outside of their destination, suit up into heavy gear, then after a few weeks of preparation launch an assault.  These armies arrived to their destinations mounted or in wagons and paused before their goals only long enough to dismount and attack.  These are highly mobile armies that have no time to spend setting up siege weapons or enduring the nightmare of dragging siege weapons across the desert.

When the battles occurred, they occurred as soon as the assaulting army was able to dismount and form the resemblance of a line.  They assaulted the gates and in every case managed to not only breach the gates, but breach them very quickly despite the lack of siege weaponry.  In most cases, the gates were breached through one magikal means or another.  The simple fact of the matter was that not only is magik quicker, cheaper, and more mobile, but it is drastically more destructive and effective at siege warfare.  It takes days and some times even months for dozens of siege weapons to bring down a wall or gate.  It takes magik hours and minutes to do the same thing.

In all three battles that occurred siege weapons would have not have even had the time to set up, much less spend the days it takes to knock down a wall.  They would have been of no use and, compared to magik, trivial to counter.  Any siege weapon would need its own magik defense or the first Krathi to peak over the walls is just going to light it on fire without getting into harms way.

So, in conclusion, siege weapons are too slow, too weak, to expensive, and too defenseless to be used in Zalanthas effectively.  Not only are they all those things, they STILL require magikers to defend them.  What is the point of having a weak and under powered weapon that still demands the protection of magikers?  There is no point to a siege weapon for any society that has the capacity to build one.  Magikers are better spent defending soldiers from other magikers, reigning destruction, and blasting open gates in a fraction of the time it takes a siege weapon, then they are being used to defend very weak and very expensive weapons that undermine the very concept of Zalanthas warfare with their slow expensive bulk.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Another point is that Zalanthian societies are based on tradition, not capitalism.

In a tradition based society, innovation is rare, inventors have not yet been invented, and change is all but nonexistant.

[jmordetsky]

Sort of like there being no need for a telephone system because we have the Way.

I won't get started on how I feel about the way, but I think the Magick vs Siege weapons argument holds ground.

[Chac]

Another point is that Zalanthian societies are based on tradition, not capitalism.

In a tradition based society, innovation is rare, inventors have not yet been invented, and change is all but nonexistant.

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

[EvilRoeSlade]

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of african tribes, but the Soviet Union is not a tradition based society.  At any rate, the making of iron tools has little to do with change.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

I was merely using a capitalistic economy as a contrast to a tradition based economy.  The point isn't that you need to be capitalistic for your society to change, the point is that if your society is tradition based, a thousand years can go by and it will still fundementally be the same until it is destroyed outright.

[Chac]

African tribes were making iron tools a -very- long time ago and the Soviet Union shot men into space.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of african tribes, but the Soviet Union is not a tradition based society.  At any rate, the making of iron tools has little to do with change.

All societies change over time, and capitalism isn't necessary for change or invention.

I was merely using a capitalistic economy as a contrast to a tradition based economy.  The point isn't that you need to be capitalistic for your society to change, the point is that if your society is tradition based, a thousand years can go by and it will still fundementally be the same until it is destroyed outright.

My argument is that the iron tools came from somewhere, and societies based on tradition change too.  If possibly more slowly.

I brought up the soviets, because they were obviously not capitalist.

I don't think capitalism has anything to do with innovation necessarily.

I think that by looking at the world of armageddon it's obvious a lot of inovation has already gone on, so I don't see why more would be a problem.  Wagons, locks, extremely complex heirarchy based nation states, very function specific tools, writing, all these things came from somewhere.

[Chac]

Actually, come to think of it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

[EvilRoeSlade]

My argument is that the iron tools came from somewhere, and societies based on tradition change too.  If possibly more slowly.

If you took a look at Mideval feudal lords and the serfs who worked their lands, and then took another look at them four-hundred years later, nothing would be different.  Change is not just slowed in a tradition based society, it is tackled to the ground and brought into a strangle hold where it then begins feebly wriggling to escape.

I don't think capitalism has anything to do with innovation necessarily.

It creates an environment where innovation can survive.  So yes, it does have to do with innovation.  If you're saying that it isn't the only economic system capable of harboring innovation than yes, I agree with you.

I think that by looking at the world of armageddon it's obvious a lot of inovation has already gone on, so I don't see why more would be a problem.  Wagons, locks, extremely complex heirarchy based nation states, very function specific tools, writing, all these things came from somewhere.

That's not change within one society.  All those innovations came from a societal upheaval, namely when the sorceror kings conquered tribes in the area and built their city states.

[Gaare]

isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

No they are not since

(i)   everything belongs to Kings..
(ii)  No ordinary citizen can have land or a place.
(iii) Bank is not giving loans to make investment since there is no investment that citizen can make in terms of goods..

[EvilRoeSlade]

Actually, come to think of it...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the armageddon economic system (as far as the major two city states are concerned) very much based on mercantile capitalism?

Definitely not.

All positions of power, even within merchant houses, is based on privilege of birth.

That is tradition, tradition, tradition.

[Larrath]

Invention is usually the result of need.  Either that or a freak accident.

While it is possible that maybe House Tor would want some machinery to destroy walls, but nothing is going to be as effective as a small coven of Rukkians can just make, uhh...

Dig a bigass tunnel under the wall and make it collapse, or make the sand drag it to places, or insult its mother really really nastily and make it cry.

I do think that most people would prefer to use either magickers or half-giants.  It will probably be very difficult to use a catapult when there's a ton of sand flying around, and the winds could just tip the larger seige engines over.

[Chac]

Invention is usually the result of need.  Either that or a freak accident.

While it is possible that maybe House Tor would want some machinery to destroy walls, but nothing is going to be as effective as a small coven of Rukkians can just make, uhh...

Dig a bigass tunnel under the wall and make it collapse, or make the sand drag it to places, or insult its mother really really nastily and make it cry.

I do think that most people would prefer to use either magickers or half-giants.  It will probably be very difficult to use a catapult when there's a ton of sand flying around, and the winds could just tip the larger seige engines over.

Yeah, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with this sort of argument.

While I think it's -possible- that catapults could be developed on arm, I really don't see that the need outweighs the cost.

[X-D]

Rindan, Your arguement only holds water for places that use/have magickers, Some do not use them, so saying you need magickers to defend underpowered seige weapons is null and untrue, and in the cases of ones that don't use magickers, seige weapons would not be under powered nor would it take very long for people to figure out flash powder and a trebrechet(spelled wrong I'm sure) Have a gate down in minutes. Add to that the place that does not use magick has tons of resources for said seige weapons.

[Rindan]

Rindan, Your arguement only holds water for places that use/have magickers, Some do not use them, so saying you need magickers to defend underpowered seige weapons is null and untrue, and in the cases of ones that don't use magickers, seige weapons would not be under powered nor would it take very long for people to figure out flash powder and a trebrechet(spelled wrong I'm sure) Have a gate down in minutes. Add to that the place that does not use magick has tons of resources for said seige weapons.

Name one place that does not use magikers, that has to deal with walls that need a siege weapon, AND has the scentific ability to actually make one.  The answer is that there exist no such group in common knowledge.  Tuluk and Allanak are the only places in the known world with the kind of literacy and wealth to build such exotic weapons.  So stupid desert elf tribe in the wastes that refuses to use magikers is not going to have the knowledge to build such a weapon, much less ever run into a wall worthy of using a weapon like that on.

There exists very few places and tribes that do not use magik in one form or another.  No one may like having to use magik, but almost everyone does it.  More to the point though, in common knowledge there is no place that has walls that demand a siege weapon, that does not have any magikers involved in battle, that are wealthy enough to build such a weapon, that are fighting an opponent who also lacks magikers, and that have the technical knowledge to build such a weapon.

So, unless there exists a tribe of rich literates with high technical knowledge and no magikers who wage war on another tribe with a walled fortress worthy of such a weapon that also lacks magikers, siege weapons seem rather silly for anyone to own.

[spawnloser]

Just to play devil's advocate, Tuluk does not use magickers and has plenty of wood to make siege weapons from...and may just want to have them to break down someone's walls.

[Twilight]

I have no idea if the mantis have magickers, but maybe they would want seige engines when they decide to eat all those silly northerners.  Or vice versa.