Confusion with thief commands

[Anonymous]

I need some advice with thief commands... it doesnt seem possible to grab merchant wares, "steal ring merchant's pack" tells me there isnt such a thing even though peek showed it in his pack. Also, peek never shows coins or inventory items, does that change at higher skill? I noticed it seems possible to go for coin sometimes, even though peek didnt show it.

[Anonymous]

something else, often I am cuffed on the side of the head by the NPC, does that mean it was a failure? And why? Why dont they call a guard instead of cuffing me? I dont get it

[Carnage]

something else, often I am cuffed on the side of the head by the NPC, does that mean it was a failure? And why? Why dont they call a guard instead of cuffing me? I dont get it

It means they're watching you and just hit you in your head to tell you that they saw you and to knock it the fudge off.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, but what about the commands not working? Its hard to play a thief who cant steal cause the code doesnt let him =P

[Delirium]

I'd look around more... if you think about it logically, merchants are probably always going to be on the lookout for thieves. Your average joe just walking down the road may or may not be.

[Morrolan]

I suspect that by "pack" it means inventory.

"Steal coins merchant"

(though you might want to look at previous (and future) posts in this thread...)

Morrolan

[mansa]

Now, there's a difference, here.

>peek merchant

and

>peek merchant's pack


When you successfully peek on someone, you see their items they are wearing, and then...it will echo something like this.

Code Select Expand

The quiet bartender is using:
<worn on torso>          a loose white cotton shirt with silk trim
<worn on legs>           an ecru silk pteryges
<worn on feet>           a pair of brown sandcloth boots
Peering into his pack, you see the following items:
a sturdy soapstone mug


That 'sturdy soapstone mug' is not actually in his 'pack', so to say.  It's in his inventory.  To steal that mug from him, type..

>steal mug bartender


Now, if you saw someone else, with a backpack on, you can actually peek INSIDE the backpack.  And, if you're good enough, you can steal what's INSIDE the backpack.  But, only if they are wearing a container item.

[Xygax]

Your first problem is a syntax one, I suspect.

If you "peek" at someone, and you see something "in their pack", you're really just looking at their inventory.  Try "steal item soandso"

> peek templar

Peering into his pack you see the following items:
a grain of polka-dot colored spice
a couple empty shotglasses

> steal spice templar
.... .....
Got it!



When you want something from someone's actual "backpack" you'll know, because you'll have peeked into it:

> peek templar's pack

Peering into the angry, glowing-eyed templar's leather backpack you see:
an iron longsword

> steal longsword templar's pack
....  long pause here, during which you sweat profusely ....
Got it!


That's how it works.

[Anonymous]

Problem is, the average Joe never has anything that can possibly be stolen... boots, tunics etc definitely dont fit into that category  

[grog]

I like pickpockets, I would have to say I've had my most fun with them.  I find the trick in the beginning is think small, go for small cheap things, rather then that steel dagger he is keeping a death grip on.  (Though my  thief would be tempted, that's when you find out where the guy lives, make some friends of loose moral values, and do a proper mugging.  :twisted: )  

Find friends, and then find chumps.  Friends are the ones you won't betray, chumps are the guys who you steal from, complain to them about being robbed and then get together with to track down the damn thief and get your money back! ("Oh look, he must have spent it all on that steel dagger!")

[Anonymous]

Grog... I need your advice. In like 20 attempts I got one dagger, else nothing. Been in jail twice. I just cant figure out how to succeed without being caught every bloody time, even small things like cheap earrings tell me "That would be impossible to steal". The only thing that always works (and always gets me wanted and caught 10 seconds later) is coins.

*sigh*

[Irulan]

Something I would recommend checking out is the Thief's Bible... http://www.armageddon.org/rp/bible.html
Found here. It is pretty good reading.
Enjoy!

-Irulan

[Anonymous]

I can roleplay a thief just fine... thats not the problem. I just simply am the most unsuccessful pickpocket ever. Even eyeless old beggars point and laugh at me. I have no clue why. Nothing can be removed except daggers hanging from belts (and I've seen one of those in 3 RL days) and coin, which is a direct ticket into jail (and never succeeds)

[Delirium]

It's not that we're suggesting that you can't RP a thief-- the guide has a lot of good pointers in many respects. I'd suggest taking a look through it as well. Can always learn something new anyway, right?

[grog]

Welcome to the life of a thief.   In the beginning you have to go for the soft con, (Not using hard coded commands like steal) practicing steal can be really hard in the beginning and after you fail to steal from someone they transform from 'mark' to 'threat'.    Talk to people, learn what type of cons work, and what types don't.  

As for practicing steal, I like the drifter and the regular.  The drifter goes to different location everyday, not going back to the same place till a few weeks have passed.  The regular always goes to the same place to work, but rarely, if ever,  steals from the people who are always there, in fact it may be good to role-play out little friendships and bribes with NPC's, virtual and otherwise. (and other PC regulars if such exist)  

This is just how I did it, there are countless other ways, and part of the fun is finding them out for yourself.

And the thief bible is great to read, even if you don't use any of it.

[ashjpd]

I am with you man, playing theives are hard. I have never had a long living, succesful theif. And I think I never will, but it is a challenge worth working for. I would suggest maybe joining a house and working on your theiving skills in secrecy, it might give you a good start.
You can't be stealing iron swords every day with a new char, you know what I mean?
I bet it is one of those things, that when you are good at it, it is easy from then on.

Shrug*

[sacac]

When they shout Thief! Thief!
You know what? Everyone withen earshot is looking for a thief..
And if you one of those thieves that try and steal until they got it, on a guy that keeps screaming Thief! Thief!
STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes..ook I have had two thieves that lived for over an IC year.. But I didn't steal from everyone I saw with coins.. or You target someone with not so good contacts (I reccomend this one) And hope there one good contact happens to be a templar and a guy thats been looking for you for months..  :twisted: And who happens to rip your arms off "On accident"

[Kalden]

I have to wonder if these guys who complain about always getting caught are playing burglars, not pickpockets.

I'm having trouble critically failing. I can only faintly remember the last time I even had a minor failure, too. Then again, I'm playing an elf with good agility. That certainly helps.

[Anonymous]

"And if you one of those thieves that try and steal until they got it, on a guy that keeps screaming Thief! Thief!
STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!! "

I dont. Its shitty rp too.

I usually walk out and several rooms away, then try to hide, and run into a group of soldiers. I probably forgot to actually switch walk speed to running, maybe thats why?

[Carnage]

Of course you're going to have a very, very, very difficult time stealing the earrings right off of someone's ears without them noticing. Use common sense and the helpfiles. It says that wearable items will be harder to remove.

[sacac]

that is good..
You can't steal the pants right off of a templar.. without taking off there belt, shoes and thong
So.. keep it ovbious.. experiment with a couple characters.. and you have it made

[Anonymous]

So basically its hardly possible to steal anything at all at start... merchants pay too much attention, commoners only have worn items, and coins always get me caught.  

[Angela Christine]

I don't think anyone will be able to offer much more help than this here.  People don't want to give away anything that might be IC sensitive, or give away anything that would ruin the experience for people who enjoy figureing out things for themselves.  You could try the Helpers, I don't think any of them specialize in thieves but some do specialize in newbie stuff and one claims to specialize in "Everything."

IC help would be better than OOC help.  You understand the syntax, but you are having trouble selecting appropriate targets and finding ways to practice that don't get you killed or jailed, and those are mostly in character problems.  Finding a teacher would help tremendously.  Obviously you can't check the want ads for people advertising as pickpocket instructors, because no one would advertise, there aren't any want ads, and even if there were you character doesn't know how to read.  I don't know how you'd go about finding an IC mentor.  

One of my first characters was a ranger, and in my newbiness I had my ranger practicing wilderness sneak while I was collecting stones outside the city.  Naturally I forgot to turn sneak off when I came back in, so I was left looking like a jackass failing sneak checks all the way to the bazaar.  Within a couple days I was contacted by a member of the Guild!  It didn't go anywhere, and I didn't figure out it was the Guild until a couple months later, but it was nifty.  I'd kept the character alive and visible for two or three weeks before my public sneaking, so that other players in Allanak got used to seeing me around and expecting that I wasn't going to get myself killed right away, so that probably helped.  The guild PCs were used to seeing me around so when I did something theify they approached me in a memorable fasion.  That was cool.

So my advice would be to lay off the theiving for a few weeks, and let people used to seeing you around.  Practice sneaking and hiding in out-of-the-way places (not main street or taverns) because being able to sneak and hide well is very helpful, but sneaking poorly just tells everyone that you are a thief.  If you don't own anything valuable you could practice sneaking in the 'rinth, practically everyone sneaks there so it won't attract attention.  Finding the buisnesses that operate out of the 'rinth could be helpful too, if you ever do steal anything you'll want a safe place to fence the loot, right?  And 'rinth taverns are good places to make contacts with shady types of people.  

Meanwhile develop a cover story, a secret identity, for dealing with mainstream society.  You don't want  everyone to think you are a criminal or a bum, so have a respectable job.  It could be a real job with a clan, or a freelance job like glass miner, salt miner, grebber, basket weaver,  and so on.  Having an actual crafting skill can be great for convincing people you are an honest, hard working citizen.  While you can actually make a living at these jobs, you don't have to, you just have to *look* like you are making a living at them.  So if you claim to work mining obsidian and glass, buy yourself a glasshacker and sheath it on your back, go out and try getting a few chunks of obsidian near the city (stay on the roads) so that you know a little about it.  If you are pretending to be a crafter, then make or buy a few pieces of your craft and carry them around with you, whip 'em out to show people now and then to prove that you really are a crafter.  If you claim to be a salt miner, then get a salt sack and few pieces of salt to put in it, and keep it in your pack -- that way if a Templar or soldier searches you you have evidence that you are just a simpler salt miner.  If you claim to be a hunter, then buy the cheapest bow you can find and sheath it on your back, and dress like a hunter.

You're thiefy skills won't rot if you don't use them, so you can afford to spend time making contacts and developing a cover story for yourself.  In the long run it will make you a more successful thief.  Be smart, stuipid thieves are soon dead theives.

AC

[Carnage]

So basically its hardly possible to steal anything at all at start... merchants pay too much attention, commoners only have worn items, and coins always get me caught.  

I know, what a fucked up system. You can't steal the shirt off someone's back. This MUD is so unfair and poorly balanced, let's start a thread in code discussion about it!

[Anonymous]

"I know, what a fucked up system. You can't steal the shirt off someone's back. This MUD is so unfair and poorly balanced, let's start a thread in code discussion about it!"

That was totally unnecessary and out of place sarcasm, because no one criticized the system. I was merely asking for some advice, coming from a MUD that only "encourages" roleplay and supports little realism I need to get used to Arm.

I was making a simple statement with a trace of humour (thus the tongue smiley), and I do enjoy finding a way around the problem. I simply need to get used to the realism, and I needed some startup pointers. Its understandable that most worn items are near impossible to remove, but I was confused that peek never shows coins (even though they seem to be there) and nearly no NPC seems to have any sort of belt purse. I was also a bit surprised by the lack of a command to try and open a belt container to look into it before peeking (or maybe I just havent discovered it yet).

[Bestatte]

I'll admit that I haven't read the thief guide (having never played a thief, I haven't needed to yet), so I'll add some general tips to help you with the realism aspect of things. Oh and ignore Carnage. He's like that with just about everything.

1) Belt purses (pouched belts) aren't the only "container objects" people can wear.

2) "Peek" will be your best friend as an aspiring thief, but mechanical info: if you fail to "peek" effectively, people will see you "look" at them. Eventually that skill will improve and your "peek" will be more sneaky and unnoticed.

3) Some container objects close, some don't.

4) Your choice of earning sids doesn't have to rely on the steal skill. You could try a "cover" to explain your character's existence, and worm your way into some unsavory person's livelihood through sheer wit and street smarts, thus giving yourself a mentor/tutor to help you learn the ropes of your avocation.

5) Expect to go to jail. Carry food and water with you just in case you're stuck there a few days, because cockroaches, well, they just don't taste all that good and you need something to wash them down with

6) You could try using your jail experience as an opportunity, rather than a punishment. Think of the power the person has, who lets you out. Decide if that person is someone who might actually have use for someone with your primitive and untrained skills. Who knows? Maybe Lord Templar Hardnose needs a sneaky low-down nasty thief like you and even hook you up with one of his better-skilled sneaky low-down nasty thief super sekrit employees to help you get better!

7) Tread carefully on #6. Let your character's personality decide if he has the smarts to even try such a thing, let alone think of it.

Don't be too upset if you end up dead. Sneaky types are tough at first, especially if you're brand new to the game.

Good luck, and may the farce be with you!

[Quirk]

I have to wonder if these guys who complain about always getting caught are playing burglars, not pickpockets.

I'm having trouble critically failing. I can only faintly remember the last time I even had a minor failure, too. Then again, I'm playing an elf with good agility. That certainly helps.

I hear you. I had an elven pickpocket once with exceptional agility. I cannot remember him ever having a critical fail; he could swipe even swords from belts with impunity.

If you mean to make your living stealing directly from others, make a pickpocket. Burglars may have a wider variety of skills, but they suffer from a lack of specialisation. Where pickpockets specialise, they are very good.

Quirk

[X-D]

Don't worry about Carnage, somebody pisses in his wheaties every morning.

[Sacac's Ghost]

First off.. We need whoever was posting as guest..
Second off, There are a lot of things you can steal, it just might not be you pickpocketing, but you will find something.

AC.. great job..

[Anonymous]

I'm not a burglar. Pickpocket with very high agility, but not a elf, maybe thats why.  

I get a lot of critical and non-critical failures.

[Gar]

A lot of good advice here.  I have some ideas for you, cover, cover, cover.  Come up with a good cover story.  I think you're focusing too heavily on the "coded" skills.  I've always thought a good thief would be one who steals things.  Not necessarily picking pockets but stealing things.  There are ways to gain access to places and steal away.  Join a clan!  Sure they'll hunt you down like a dog if/ when they find out but you can always relocate.  Maybe you don't rob them blind but wait until you get more and more trust.  Then go after the good stuff.  Or try to sell things for inflated prices.  That's stealing.  Or how about "Give me a hundred coins for this sword."  You take the coins and "Yoink, I'm out of here!"  I've hung around taverns and such "stealing" information by listening to conversations.  You can then sell the "stolen" information for a price to the right person.  I've even altered the stories to make them more marketable.  You can go on and on about stealing without picking someones pockets.  In the meanwhile, practice your skills in places where you won't be seen by the greater population.

[Carnage]

I'm going to be quite blunt here. As X-D said, someone pisses into my cereal every morning.

First of all, the answers to your questions were in the helpfiles. A simple look at help skill_peek: "This skill will allow you to look at a person's equipment list and what
they are carrying (in their inventory, which is listed as being 'in their
pack'), without them noticing." Next, most of it is common sense and things that can easily be looked into. "something else, often I am cuffed on the side of the head by the NPC, does that mean it was a failure? And why? Why dont they call a guard instead of cuffing me? I dont get it" It means you can't steal from them since the NPC guard(s) is keeping watch. Why don't they call a guard? Because generally it's only newbies who do this and they should get the idea after a couple of hits.

At this point, if the code seems like something is wrong, it's probably just you not correctly inserting a command or you're not reading a helpfile.

I was making a simple statement with a trace of humour (thus the tongue smiley), and I do enjoy finding a way around the problem. I simply need to get used to the realism, and I needed some startup pointers.

Then read over the documents and the site rather than being lazy and posting into the first (and incorrect) forum you see.

I'm sorry folks, but when we constantly get a barrage of questions like these in every forum except Ask the Players, the answers to which are available onto the site, I have to wonder what the entire point of having a website full of information is. The answer to almost every question is right there and takes just a tiny bit of effort to read yet people want to take the easy way out and anonymously post. There are designated people to help, a website full of information, and a forum absolutely made for questions to other players. There's no excuse.

[Anonymous]

I spent 5 hours reading every bit of information I could find before I even created my PC, but sometimes, DUH, the guides and skill info dont explain every single issue / command conflict that might occur. This is especially true for the complexity of thief abilities. Sorry, the info didnt tell me anywhere that "you see in person's pack" is not actually their pack but their inventory.

*resists comment*
*resists comment*

Ah. Urge resisted.

*pat Carnage*

[Anonymous]

Additional note, I apologize for not having looked at every ingame skill pointer after having learned the ones on the website by heart. I also apologize for having asked here because some people here are titled helpers and enjoy helping.  

[spawnloser]

Okay...in defense of the Guest, some of the documentation is not clearly organized.  This has been gone over before whenever anyone asks for information that is in the docs whenever someone like Carnage blows up at someone that doesn't know better because they are new.

Still, as Carnage says, the helpfile for the skill peek does say specifically:

SKILL_PEEK                                                      (Equipment)

  This skill will allow you to look at a person's equipment list and what
they are carrying (in their inventory, which is listed as being 'in their
pack'), without them noticing. Failure will result in your peeking being
noticed.  You may also attempt to peek into items a person is wearing or
carrying.

The bolded part is obviously not bold in the helpfiles...but I did it to add emphasis.  Yes, the information was there...in one of the first places one should look.

[Anonymous]

Still, Spawnloser, unless there is something I'm missing I still see how someone could read that and try to '>steal <object> merchant's pack'.

It probably would be clearer if instead of saying 'Looking in So and So's pack' if it said

'You look at what So and So has on hand'

It's misleading to say it's in their pack when you use the peek command, when the target as has a pack on their back with a completely different inventory.

[spawnloser]

I can understand that...still, however, the helpfile elaborates on what the code is going to tell you.  The helpfile says that when the mud code says 'in their pack' it means that it is in their inventory...it doesn't say that you shouldn't "steal coins merchant's inventory" which I could understand someone trying that was being unusually clever...

Still, it is a moot point at this time for this subject.  Perhaps someone that feels strongly enough about the topic should idea a change in the peek skill?

[Carnage]

Here, exactly, is what I do when I come to a problem such as the Guest. Say I'm using skill Y, which will magically allow me to teleport around the world and back. We'll say Y is a common skill that isn't IC info.

1.)help skill_y. Before I even use it, I read the helpfile to double check things. Got a problem? Reread the helpfile on it. Make sure the syntax is right.
       1.5)In the meantime, I'm using my head to try and figure out whether this skill is having some sort of targetting issue (I'm warping to the Kadius store instead of the Kadius storehouse to rob and loot, perhaps), I'm trying a few times to double check the skill to see if I failed, whatever.
2.)Ask a couple of the people on my buddylist that play Arm what's up with it.
3.)Wish up if I suspect it's a bug. Generally the answer is to e-mail the MUD account but there's the chance a bored staffer might answer. If I was new and it was a foolish error, they'd most likely point me to the helper list with someone I could ask or correct me.
4.)Post in Ask the Players. Generally I'll get a straight answer from there.
5.)Finally, e-mail the MUD account. Depending on who's manning it, often Sanvean, I'll get an easy answer in a few hours.

A very simple process. Usually I don't even get to step two. If I do, chances are very good that I'll get an answer and it settles it quite fast.

As for the 'complexity' of thief abilities, it's generally because some of the higher information is IC. Why should the helpfiles spell out everything for poisons or what explosive is best for trap? Most of it you're supposed to find out in game through trial and error.

I also apologize for having asked here because some people here are titled helpers and enjoy helping.

If you fully explored the site, you'd have found this: Armageddon Helpers

[Anonymous]

To emphasize with the newbie, I spent several months as a newbie unable to craft and very frustrated. I pretty much just gave up on cooking and forgot to ask

There is nothing in any of helpfiles or documentation that says you don't put the 'a' into your recipe. Eventually I asked someone, but that's annoying. Hope that changes sometime. The docs/helpfiles aren't always perfectly correct, and they're not always obvious, so we have to keep rehashing this advice over and over.

Keys to success as a thief: nosave, and "steal coins <target>". The steal coins is one thing many newbies don't notice: coins don't show in an inventory, and the only way you can find out that you can rob a pile of sid off random commoners is by noticing the example in the helpfile.

[creeper386]

I could have sworn one of the helpfiles says don't us an article, but I don't see it.

But if you look. All of the samples are

craft blah into blah

not

craft blah into a blah

So, I think if you follow the EXAMPLES on the helpfiles you'll do fairly well. As they are everywhere.

Asking around isn't that big of a deal. But don't get pissy when someone points you to a document or a helpfile with the quoted relevant information. And telling you that it's in the helpfiles/docs right here.

Creeper

[Kankman]

Carnage, don't be a punk. Newbies are the lifeblood to a more interesting game. You're aren't a forum moderator, so shut up and stop being a nazi.

[Medena]

When I started on this mud a few months ago, I was absolutely terrified of doing something idiotic in the game or of asking a question here that might make me appear idiotic.  So I'd pour over the helpfiles, searching for answers instead of actually playing the game and learning things there.

I eventually asked some helpers questions and then even got up my courage to ask things on the GDB.  The response was always great and someone even said "Hey, relax, we were all newbies once and you'll find the other players very supportive."  And, I am pleased to say that I did.

I'm also pleased to say that no one answered me with a "Read the helpfile you, moron."  When you already know the answer to the question, it's pretty easy to spot it in the helpfile.  When you don't know, the answer doesn't just jump out at you.  I recall myself wondering about some of these very same things as the new player asking here.

--Medena