Quote from: Jarvis on September 03, 2024, 09:43:23 AMThis thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

I disagree. This thread has brought to light many afflictions which blight our community.

Quote from: Leze on September 03, 2024, 09:56:36 AMBy "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

That's an interesting observation and got me thinking.  If a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

Quote from: Lotion on September 03, 2024, 10:18:24 AM

Quote from: Jarvis on September 03, 2024, 09:43:23 AMThis thread is silly, stemming from the nature of someone looking for things to actively be offended by.

I disagree. This thread has brought to light many afflictions which blight our community.

I'm confused. I thought you wanted to stop leader roles from ERPing to they would be able to interact with other people more.
Or because you think ERP is a toxic blight on the community?

Is there a prescription for making offensive behavior disappear being proposed, are is this just a strawman festival?

I think trying to solve specific problems that currently exist in the game is productive.

I think trying to solve overarching societal problems, and their perceived influences based on past experiences in a space where we just want to come together and have fun is not productive.

Quote from: Leze on September 03, 2024, 09:56:36 AMWas that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

Do you have a prescription for how we can fix this problem here?

Quote from: Halaster on September 03, 2024, 10:34:44 AM

Quote from: Leze on September 03, 2024, 09:56:36 AMBy "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

That's an interesting observation and got me thinking.  If a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

We're talking on a systemic level here. High power and high status positions tend to be occupied by men in the real world. All the baggage that comes with that will work it's way into the game. This might include roles like templars.

Most of the time this is all below the conscious level (like language). You can argue the merits of the claim, but pointing out the above doesn't put blame on me. You've missed the point if you even think it's about blame.

But yes, it's a trap I fall into occasionally too. There is one role in particular that I struggle with so badly that I've accidentally misgendered the character more than once. It's embarrassing enough that I had to blame it on brain no workie.

Quote from: dumbstruck on September 02, 2024, 09:15:12 PMI'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hyper vigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

Have you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I, for one, had a male noble who was constantly chastised by other nobles including animated NPCs for his promiscuity (he was) and even more so for his one attempt at a meaningful relationship with someone to the extent that these are pretty much the only animations that I remember ever getting.

Quote from: Markku on September 03, 2024, 11:10:42 AM

Quote from: dumbstruck on September 02, 2024, 09:15:12 PMI'm very concerned about the weird ways that sexual activities get bad PR for female PCs IC that it shouldn't and that if the character was male it would be laughable. I don't like that and that part smacks of misogyny. And yes it has not happened recently to me. But it has a history of being an issue, which is why people who have had it be an issue in that past are hyper vigilant about how it might look coming up in the future.

Have you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I, for one, had a male noble who was constantly chastised by other nobles including animated NPCs for his promiscuity (he was) and even more so for his one attempt at a meaningful relationship with someone to the extent that these are pretty much the only animations that I remember ever getting.

I haven't. I haven't. It's more one of those, 'I'm one of those people who I feel like maybe has an inordinately deep well of egregious examples so here's a few examples of how these female PCs get negative blowback that male PCs have not'. Since the game has reopened I haven't seen anything like that thankfully, wanted to try and be clear that it has been a while but like yeah, always being vigilant about it just because I've seen it happen in the past in such weird ways that you just wouldn't want to believe would happen, if that makes sense. Can't tell you how much it means that you actually asked. It does mean a lot. Thank you for checking and creating the room for someone to say something.

Quote from: Markku on September 03, 2024, 11:05:22 AM

Quote from: Leze on September 03, 2024, 09:56:36 AMWas that nurse a man or woman? Let's be real, it was probably a woman.

By "coded", I take it to mean mean that certain roles and behaviours are understood to be gendered as a result of societal norms. It is read and written intuitively. Almost like language.

Do you have a prescription for how we can fix this problem here?

I have no real suggestion other than to talk about it and not dismiss it out of hand. If there even is a solution to systemic discrimination, it's generational.

Quote from: Halaster on September 03, 2024, 10:34:44 AMIf a player makes an assumption about a role being gender-specific, who is the one perpetuating that stereotype or 'norm'?  In other words, if you (and I don't mean you @Leze this is a more generic you) say "templars with power are designed for men", which is what I interpreted that to mean (maybe I'm wrong @Gimfalisette, I apologize if I've misunderstood you), then isn't it you the one perpetuating that belief?

I truly don't mean this as an insult, but when it's said "not a templar, templars are masc-coded due to their coded powers" - who's the one bringing that belief to the game?  The staff and people who play the templars, or the person who thinks this way about it?  Who is the one assigning the gender to the role?

Yeah that's not how societal programming of gender roles works. This is me noticing the effect of those stereotypes and biases in the game, not me perpetuating them.

To go back to an earlier point you made about 75% of ERP complaints about leaders being about male PCs: This is because even now, at least 75% of leader PCs in the game are male. Look at the current roster of clan leaders; I believe I count 20, and 4 of those are female PCs. That's 80% male PC leadership currently in the game. So in fact if the complaints leaned even 75% toward male leader PCs, that means female leader PCs are being overreported for ERP.

Yes, the game has more male PCs than female, but by my estimate it's only about a 60-40 split. That means female PCs are underrepresented as leadership PCs. Currently I believe women are also underrepresented on staff. We could have an entire separate conversation about why female players and people playing female PCs don't want to do clan leadership, but one significant factor is the kind of treatment that female PCs get in game. It's truly exhausting.

I'm not making any complaints about representation at this moment, I'm just making a note of the actual state of representation in the game's leadership.

Quote from: Markku on September 03, 2024, 11:10:42 AMHave you see this sort of thing since the game reopened? If so, have you reported it?

I've seen very sexist behaviors in game currently and reported them, yes. I've seen also behaviors that do stem from ingrained sexism but which don't rise to the level of reportable conduct. For those my PC just rolls with it and tries for an IC correction to the thought process. I've seen other PCs trying to correct the IC thought process too, not just mine, and not just female PCs doing it. We have allies within the game, that is there are male players and those playing male PCs who are very aware of these issues and I have only gratitude for their help <3

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 03, 2024, 12:57:21 PMI've seen one very sexist behaviors in game currently and reported themit, yes.

We appreciate honest feedback, but exaggerations that suggest the game is in a worse state than it actually is make it difficult to have productive, good faith discussions on these challenging topics. Let's focus on sticking to the truth for the most constructive conversations pretty please.

   I feel like we are not perfect, staff and players are actively nudging people away from improper behavior, most of which is not complaint worthy.  When complaints are issued, they are being handled.  We just released a new help file to address a lot of these concerns based on two request tool requests and a couple active GDB threads at the time.  This, I believe, is the truth of where we are.

  AND when I hear things like "blight on our community" and "blatant misogyny," it feels like some players believe it out our community is (at worst) uniquely at fault or (at least) sub-par for an internet community and isn't doing enough, and it is somewhat discouraging. I feel like, we as individual community members are being blamed for thing beyond our control.

  I don't see character complaints, but I can verify that anytime anything SPECIFIC is mentioned in a report or on the GDB, we all, as a staff team, put forth an active effort to investigate and find the root cause of reported issues, check back and forth with each other to see what anyone else might know about a specific player, character or issue.  I think we, staff, and we, the community do a great job of managing these issue, certainly more than we did five, ten, fifteen years ago. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good.

  I think working together on specific issues instead of shouting at the sky about the woes of the world is a better path of us all as a community, not least of all because many of us come here to escape those things.

Great job, Gimf, on helping to redirect people when they make mistakes IG. That truly is the best way to address these issues going forward.  As as reminder to everyone, you are free to and encouraged to do this:

"Real-world prejudges between the humans of Earth do not and should not bleed over into our collective roleplaying story. Staff will not approve a character, player-tribe or clan with a background that include a penchant for furthering or enforcing prejudicial real-life norms. Roleplaying these prejudices in-game will usually result in an in-character (IC) or out-of-character (OOC) notice/correction by other players or staff referring you to this or other documentation. Continued expression of these prejudices after in-game corrections have been documented may result in OOC consequences such as storage of your character, karma reduction, or an account ban. "

Erk. Some of these posts are beginning to get down right icky. Is there anything greater that needs to be explored here? Reading some posts, I feel like I need a shower.

Quote from: ArmaJunkie on September 03, 2024, 02:13:57 PMREDACTED

But you feeling a certain way about it doesn't make it not sexism. My experience in Armageddon is that the female PC who does that is going to receive more negative attention than a male PC who does that almost one hundred percent of the time. Just like real life, despite what should be different in the setting.

My PCs have pretty exclusively done some variety of monogamy and I've yet to encounter anyone who gives more than a cursory fuck about it.

In the immortal words of Johnny Cash:


'I hear the train a-comin', it's rolling 'round the bend' but I think derailed along with this thread.

Yeah, this has ran it's course.