Backstab and Sap in an age of mdesc hiding EQ

[Dresan]

After seeing a number of positive changes to the game and the overall community in this last month I've been left with much more faith that certain mechanics could be implemented in ways that could promote RP.

One of these mechanics that I've been against in the past is mdesc hiding items.

However, if something like mdesc hiding EQ were to ever be implemented, I don't believe backstab or sap should remain as is:

As a thought experiment I would propose the following changes:
1. Backstab and Sap would do less overall damage that it does today. Instead it would do closer to 60 or 70% of current damage with all factors optimized.
2. Instead of upfront damage, these skills would lag both the victim and the attacker in combat. The lag would be a less than a bash and without any of the debuffs of bash but should allow at least a couple rounds of combat.
3. Who gets to make the first move after lag should be a combination of skill, stats and perhaps other factors. It wouldn't be a static outcome.
4. Skill would effect initial damage, first move after lag and time before crimecode activation but not over all lag, making the skill useful even at low levels as a way to initiate combat despite low damage.

What would change:
1. Backstab/Sap would require more tactical timing and strategy. It would be easier for someone to rescue the victim or attack the assassin.
2. Backstab/Sap would less successful without preparation (eg, poison, weapons, some combat skill would be needed for effective assassination).
3. Backstab and Sap would be less dangerous to attempt, since both attacker and victim are lagged, it is easier to run away, instead of being lagged.
4. It would promote having an accomplice who doesn't need backstab themselves, even at low levels of the skill.


Overall backstab/sap would feel less ganky and cheap by not having to rely on surprise and twitch mechanics as it does today. At the moment backstab/sap is either just dangerous against low combat people or those with crappy connections. With the right preparation and thought, backstab/sap would be far more dangerous to more people than just aides. In short you would see more attempts but less success or death on either side, unless someone puts the right amount of effort (eg. work with someone) to kill another person.  When added to Mdesc hiding items it would generate a lot of RP, gossip, news and incident without always having to end up in death for either the assassin or victim.

[Roon]

Am I missing something here? Mdesc-hiding items weren't brought back, were they? If they were, I haven't heard a thing about it or seen any in-game. They were taken out many years ago, and as far as I'm aware, the staff policy on these items is "no."

[Dresan]

It was mused about here:mdesc hiding items mention


There is nothing definitive or in stone, which is why my idea isn't even a proposal or recommendation but rather just a thought experiment. If mdesc items are not implemented then current forms of backstab/sap ganky, twitchy and cheap as they may sometimes feel would probably continue to work best.

[Roon]

The problem with mdesc-hiding masks is that you have no other way of identifying someone unless they willingly choose to drop hints about who they are, so it becomes impossible to do anything about any of what masked characters do after the fact. Someone could backstab a dude to death in front of a crowd, and unless they can kill him then and there, everyone just has to shrug and go "there's really no way we can ever find out who did this."

Take away the mdesc and you have very few other things to go by. Accent, worn equipment, and the very vague height adjective... that's pretty much it, and it's trivial to obfuscate these, or meaningless in the case of 'the tall figure,' to the point where nobody has any real chance of knowing who you are.

While it's sometimes problematic that someone can take one look at your hooded character and see who you are based on your mdesc, it would be problematic every time with mdesc-hiding masks that remove the only meaningful method of identification.

By and large, the only way to ever impose consequences for anyone's actions (when they're mdesc-masked) would be to kill them outright the moment they do anything, because otherwise there's zero chance that you'll ever find out who it was. In many cases, killing the masked mystery man isn't an option. Either you're not capable of doing it, or it isn't in-character for your PC, or the crimecode would make it suicidal for you to try. Then it's just "uh, he had a mask on.. and boots..."

It's just messy. Mdesc masks were removed for a reason. There would have to be a slew of new code added before they could return, like splitting descriptions into segments where some could be hidden while others (e.g. eyes or bone structure) can't.

[Hindsight]

Yeah, without the chance of an mdesc item failing, then you take away that element. Great point. You'd need like a disguise skill or some sort of check against the item - like watch or something, which I don't hate the idea of but they'd still be super overpowered. I agree with the above, they'd create a slew of problems that don't already exist.

I'd love a rework of backstab/sap though.

[Dresan]

The only way to make this idea work without mdescs items is that after initiating a backstab/sap as part of the skill, the attacker's mdesc would be hidden for a certain period of time, lets say 1.5 IC hours. To counter act, perception based skill like scan could check against the skill of the assassin and see if you can identify them though the disguise with look. I am always in favor of any buff to wisdom at this point.

This gives an attacker enough time to attack, and finish the job or escape but gives victims or other watching a chance to identify the attacker if they are sloppy.

All the same rules apply, the lag would prevent the victim from looking at their attacker. Letting them make the call to to risk looking at their victim (may succeed or fail depending on perception skills) or fleeing as lag wears out for both them and the attacker, who gets to make the first move after lag is important to the survival of both, making higher levels of the skill important but not for outright damage.   

However,  if three or four people really want to jump someone in the middle of the tavern, not caring who finds out, by all means it'll be useful for this too even at low levels.

[Inks]

Searching your name relating to this topic shows you have been arguing for this same idea since 2016, Dresan, and seemingly were always in favour of mdesc hiding items.

I think mdesc hiding items would be fun but potentially do more harm than good for the game.

But then again I haven't played since seasons were announced so perhaps things are different now!

[Dresan]

For the hidden mdesc to be tied with certain skills, yes.

For mdesc hiding items in particular, much less so as noted here: Quote

Think I've been consistent in my feelings with mdesc items but if we are going back almost a decade to 2016, maybe I did change my mind at some point. 

[Kavrick]

Pking is already really easy to get away with I dunno why you'd need to make it easier. Arm just isn't a game built for pvp combat, It's honestly weird to me that so many players seem to focus on PvP combat balance when it so rarely happens in the first place. I remember when I invited my friend to play the game, someone told them 'stalker is a useless class because it can't pvp', which is insane to me.

If you try to kill someone and someone sees you or they get away, there should be consequences for it, you shouldn't be able to just run away with zero repercussions because you have a cloak on.

[Dresan]

I think the reason I strongly support the current PK rules is because if someone attacks a grebber in the wilds, they will ICly get away with it but staff should be asking for reasons OOCly. Historically assassin used to kill aides and other connected people left and right on the behest of sponsored roles, and they got away with it as well. No one asked questions and historically it felt as if staff did not care about anyone but their sponsored roles.

That said, not wanting to see meaningless deaths is not the same as not supporting conflict or in some cases murder with reason. As long as staff is giving the same OOC consideration to that grebber when they are killed by a raider as a sponsored noble when they are killed by through various plots I am happy. There is a balance here.

This game has PvP conflict, some of that involves PVP combat, it doesn't always have to be lethal (#buff Mercy) but sometimes it is, and long as there is consideration, reason and  effort by the perpetrators then that is part of the game. This has never been a purely PvE game where everyone is working merrily together. And as time passes justifications should begin piling up that will lead to some people being killed.


The main idea would make backstab/sap harder to pull off without more much more effort. Promoting conflict and perhaps more attempts but less success (eg. death). The way backstab/sap operates now its always the same social classes that seem to be on the losing end of the skill.

But it was just a thought experiment with the condition of mdesc hiding of some sort to balance out the idea's lack of twitchy forms of success we have now.

[Tasemu]

game design is surely a challenging task. you get immediate responses. In case of a damage reduction, infiltrator / enforcer population will diminish.

[Dresan]

Actually, Tamemu's response was more in line with the type of comment I was expecting. 

To answer the question, without effort, more specifically other high level supporting skills, yes it is a reduction of instant damage. 

But with effort this would pay some more dividends against certain classes that have been historically more immune to these sort of attacks. At higher levels of skill and shall we say meatiness, the problem isn't really just the damage, its keeping that opponent in a vulnerable state and around long enough to do that damage.  Enforcers and Infiltrators would be the ones with enough skill to keep tougher opponents around long enough to make the most out of the strategic timing and the effort they put into their attack. This would be due to skill having the first move, where subclasses would have a much less guaranteed outcome, but still useful though.

Ultimately, mechanics that rely on twitchy response and surprise don't work well in a text based game with themes like this one. Sap/Backstab are 'great' skills for the wrong reasons.

[Tasemu]

Yes, but suddenly raiders and fighters are on par at assasination. especially when people realize a pair of hacks are better than a backstab. Also, a failed assassin is a dead one. why would I ever play an assassin, building a character for 20 rl days, knowing my chances of a clean assasination dropped from 50% to now 20%

[Bogre]

Going to echo what I've said on this a lot of times. Mdesc hiding items are not insanely broken. It's not realistic that you can get a look off and crystal-clear be able to identify the person if you ever see them again. Yes, it probably is a deterrent to conflict in general because if your character is scoped, you can write it off. On the other hand, it really pushes players engaging in PVP to do whatever they can to get the kill quickly, because if you get looked at, again, you're persona non grata forever.

It makes actually hiding a PC's identity nearly impossible. You can't really infiltrate anything.

[Agent_137]

Going to echo what I've said on this a lot of times. Mdesc hiding items are not insanely broken. It's not realistic that you can get a look off and crystal-clear be able to identify the person if you ever see them again. Yes, it probably is a deterrent to conflict in general because if your character is scoped, you can write it off. On the other hand, it really pushes players engaging in PVP to do whatever they can to get the kill quickly, because if you get looked at, again, you're persona non grata forever.

It makes actually hiding a PC's identity nearly impossible. You can't really infiltrate anything.

We can either trust the victims to RP well by not abusing look, or the perpetrators to RP well and not abuse hiding their mdesc.  Or we could build some new code system to rely less on RP.

With the new focus on RP and non lethal antagonism, this is an important topic. I don't think it needs to change as long as victims are self policing based on what the perpetrator is wearing and how long they linger visibly. Surely everyone will do that now?

[Dresan]

A coded system to support RP and not rely on individual interpretation which is likely to be biased given the stakes of the situation seems more ideal to me.

After all its not really bad RP to be able to look and identify the person trying to murder the character you put so much effort in. Its how the game was designed, either you insta-gank someone or you get delayed for a long time, allowing your victim to escape and get a good at you. What side of the argument you support in these matters often depends which character you like the most.

[Spiderman]

I dunno.  Maybe if you, like, get seen at all....maybe you did it wrong and deserve the consequences of being spotted?

[Krath]

Instead of nerfing backstab/sap and bringing back mdesc mask, how about bringing accountability for the players who look at someone, and disregard the person being fully hooded and masked first?

Let's start there before we nerf anything else or bring back mdesc hiding eq.

[Dresan]

Instead of nerfing backstab/sap and bringing back mdesc mask, how about bringing accountability for the players who look at someone, and disregard the person being fully hooded and masked first?

I disagree. Even in Mushes there is a +dice roll for a reason.

Your interpretation of RP isn't superior to another person who put in time and effort into their character. While RPing something because you coded can isn't always the best logic, in these instances where people's time and effort is involved, it should be enforced with code in order to make things fair and transparent. If backstab/sap continue in its current form, one of the downsides is potentially getting spotted. For better or worse, that is the balance we have right now. 

[Krath]

Instead of nerfing backstab/sap and bringing back mdesc mask, how about bringing accountability for the players who look at someone, and disregard the person being fully hooded and masked first?

I disagree. Even in Mushes there is a +dice roll for a reason.

This isn't a MUSH and your interpretation of RP isn't superior to another person who put in time and effort into their character. While RPing something because you coded can isn't always the best logic, in these instances where people time and effort is involved, it should be enforced with code in order to make things fair and transparent. If backstab/sap continue in its current form, one of the downsides is potentially getting spotted. For better or worse, that is the balance we have right now. 

I guess, let me rephrase my statement, what problem are you trying to solve with your proposal?

[Dresan]

I guess, let me rephrase my statement, what problem are you trying to solve with your proposal?

Sorry but where did it read there was a specific problem to solve? 

[Spiderman]

I guess I am lost.  The thead seems to imply a solution or fix, for what I can only assume is the perception of problem.  If there's no actual problem, then there's no need for a post, much less additional code,right?

[Dresan]

I guess I am lost.  The thead seems to imply a solution or fix, for what I can only assume is the perception of problem.  If there's no actual problem, then there's no need for a post, much less additional code,right?

No, sharing thoughts and ideas about this game is the purpose of this forum. I get some don't like the ideas but it generated interesting discussion.

I posted these thoughts with the condition quoted below

if something like mdesc hiding EQ were to ever be implemented, I don't believe backstab or sap should remain as is:

[Spiderman]

I'll just offer a  and a general statement of disagreement and leave it at that.

[Bogre]

how about bringing accountability for the players who look at someone, and disregard the person being fully hooded and masked first?

There is essentially no reasonable ability to hold people accountable for clearly present coded and thus IC knowledge. You can't punish someone for seeing an entire mdesc and then utilizing that knowledge. Sure, in an ideal situation players will not take that coded knowledge IC and spill total details about someone, but otherwise its completely subjective judgements on a player's use of objective information. "What if my PC is very observant!" they say.


Accountability is more easily assessed on the initiator side, but even then, I'm still waiting to hear how exactly mdesc hiding can be 'abused'. In my opinion - it leads to more abuse skirting the consequences of complete and infallible knowledge than it would cause abuse.

I dunno.  Maybe if you, like, get seen at all....maybe you did it wrong and deserve the consequences of being spotted?

The problem with this take is that 'doing it right' is super fast code kill, which is typically terribly unfun and unsatisfying for the player on the victim end as well as very unsatisfying for the PC aggressor. Over and over, people clamor for death scenes for their PC if its going that way. So the consequences of 'doing it wrong' promote non-interaction between PCs - beginning the interaction from stealth and ending it before anything can be done. That also makes it exceedingly difficult to do anything other than kill someone. You can't threaten and then beat someone up anonymously for the Guild, say. It's achieved more safely now by just sapping from hiding and then emoting when they're unconscious.  I really fail to see what people are worried about. 

Moreover, the lack of anonymity blanks out a lot of other very interesting RP lines - infiltrating another city, masquerade balls, secret cult meetings with everyone wearing featureless masks, making a rogue appearance as a sorcerer when really you're an Allanaki bartender, etc. Players will just not do that stuff since it's not safe.