I think a skill up notice would be nice.. but why not find a way to make it IC flavor?

player skills up.

You are feeling a bit more confident with <skill here>

Or, Player skills up,

You think "I think I'm getting better."

All sorts of potential flavor that actually also acts as a RP prompt for the character.

I think one of the most fun and healthiest ways to include these things is in an in-character way that can prompt roleplay alongside giving the player information.

That had been my suggestion prior. Rather than "your skill in lumberjacking has increased" it would be "You feel your skills in <skill name> have increased".

If this were to go in, keeping it as IC as possible would be best and it would make it easier for new people to understand the system. Rather than "yet another OOC mechanic to remember", its just an IC reminder that you got better at "slashing weapons".

This would be incredibly appreciated. Anything to tell us when to do less grinding and more RP.

RP and grinding can occur at the same time.

randomize between:

force player think I sure do feel like I'm making some noticeable improvement to [skill]
force player feel proud of your improvement in the [skill] skill
echo player You can't help but notice that you are steadily improving in [skill]
force player think Is it just me or am I actually getting better at [skill]
etc


Note:  This is no way makes any commitment to adding these changes, it's just me contributing to the idea, albeit a bit silly

Oddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

As ever, the "silly" ideas have a great deal of merit. People will react appropriately: I can't imagine anyone but a mul in an existential crisis being upset about increasing weapons proficiency.

If making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

Quote from: Dune Bunny on June 09, 2024, 04:55:25 PMIf making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

Just wanted to note here that my previous response was part of a larger response moderated because of what it responded to.

I'm totally okay with this and I don't think this is a case of some sort of tipping point, I was just worried about the justifications being used that were removed.

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 05:24:08 PM

Quote from: Dune Bunny on June 09, 2024, 04:55:25 PMIf making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

As someone that plays way too many crafters, my post was a little rushed, and crafting skill biased, yes. XD

Making it something general for various categories might be the best way to do things?

Skills involving attacks, kick, weapon skills, etc. could all be appended with something like, 'but you recognized the mistake in your footing/swing/movements'. This might be a little confusing though, when you're not sure if it was the weapon skill, or fighting style that it counted for. Might be something we'd just have to deal with!

Things like parry/shield use could be 'but you can see how you need to adjust for the next attack.'

Listen style skills could be something to the effect of, "You could somewhat make it out, but not enough to catch it this time."

Watch: You saw some movement, but didn't quite catch it in time.

And so on. I'm definitely not volunteering to write them up, though. Just spitballing! =P

Quote from: Dune Bunny on June 09, 2024, 06:13:51 PM

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 05:24:08 PM

Quote from: Dune Bunny on June 09, 2024, 04:55:25 PMIf making it something of an IC thing, why not incorporate it into the failure message?

No Gain: You snap the branch, rendering it useless.

Gain: You snap the branch, but can see where you went wrong when working the material.

Or something to that effect.

It would be a whole lot more work coming up with a custom message for each skill, but that would definitely be a very slick implementation.

As someone that plays way too many crafters, my post was a little rushed, and crafting skill biased, yes. XD

Making it something general for various categories might be the best way to do things?

Skills involving attacks, kick, weapon skills, etc. could all be appended with something like, 'but you recognized the mistake in your footing/swing/movements'. This might be a little confusing though, when you're not sure if it was the weapon skill, or fighting style that it counted for. Might be something we'd just have to deal with!

Things like parry/shield use could be 'but you can see how you need to adjust for the next attack.'

Listen style skills could be something to the effect of, "You could somewhat make it out, but not enough to catch it this time."

Watch: You saw some movement, but didn't quite catch it in time.

And so on. I'm definitely not volunteering to write them up, though. Just spitballing! =P

You feel like you know where you went wrong at <skill>.

It's not elaborate but it does fit almost any use case.

As long as it can be toggled off AND players know to /not/ try to explain ICly or use OOC to tell other characters that they'll get that message and should look for it, then I still don't like it but it wouldn't affect me.

The code informing you of a coded improvement with an IC echo is just jarring, to me. I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved. Or, if I really care that much, I can type SKILLS and see for myself. I'm not very fond of the echo we already get when we bump up a skill level. It just reminds me way too much of another game when you'd absorb exp points and get an echo every time your "head clears."

"I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved." - @Lizzie

I can respect that, even though I disagree. My question is: How do you know you improved? By just "knowing" you're better, I get that... but how do you, Lizzie the Player, know you improved at your skill?

Previously your answer seems to be "because I have more skills" or "I'm hitting more often" but how do you KNOW?

Quote from: Riev on June 09, 2024, 08:34:21 PM"I much prefer to know that I'm improved, because - I'm improved." - @Lizzie

I can respect that, even though I disagree. My question is: How do you know you improved? By just "knowing" you're better, I get that... but how do you, Lizzie the Player, know you improved at your skill?

Previously your answer seems to be "because I have more skills" or "I'm hitting more often" but how do you KNOW?

I know because I pay attention when I'm sparring, or if my ranger-ish character hunts the same types of critter routinely. If I'm playing a burglar, I know because I break fewer picks, and I can pick more intricate locks. If I'm playing a crafter, I know because the "list of stuff I can craft with this item" is longer now than it was a minute ago.  If I'm curious about my climb skill I know because I can actually climb without slipping more often. Archery - I hit my target more often or use fewer arrows on a regular basis, to kill the same critter type that needed more arrows to kill all last week.

Just like in real life - I know I'm better at something because it's easier to succeed more often.

The game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 02:29:00 PMOddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

Quote from: Halaster on June 09, 2024, 11:17:35 PM

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 02:29:00 PMOddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

As long as the initial implementation is designed with this in mine that extra work can be offloaded to whoever feels like doing it later!

Quote from: Halaster on June 09, 2024, 11:17:35 PM

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 02:29:00 PMOddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

>You learned your lesson, with that mistake.

Works for just about anything as an easy stand in while the rest of the work gets done. That may be North American slang though, so might not hit contextually for other groups. I'm not sure if "learn your lesson" is a phrase in other places for some kind of mistake made that taught you something.

Of course, also make it so the message only goes out once. Alternatively give no message, and just put it on the skill menu as a * by the skill as suggested by someone else and it will never have to come up in game.

Quote from: Halaster on June 09, 2024, 11:17:35 PM

Quote from: Usiku on June 09, 2024, 02:29:00 PMOddly, you would suddenly feel more confident in your ability right after you just mucked it up royally? 

Yeah, good point, probably more like
"You learn from your mistake and feel you know how to perform better in [skill]."  something like that.

I like the custom gain msg per skill idea, but yeah.. loooots more work.

This will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.
Bynner recruit: Oh I just got my slashing improved in my first spar. I better use another weapon in the next round or sit it off and wait for the cooldown.

Quote from: eska on June 10, 2024, 02:45:57 AMThis will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.

I don't see how it'll let them do it faster if it doesn't change skill timers. It just means they don't have to redundantly keep grinding a skill because they don't know if it increased.

I like the idea of showing "*" beside skills that can be improved. It shows if you are off the timer and if you've maxxed out a skill. It also levels the playing field between new players and vets. After all, the goal is to attract and retain new players, right?

I played this game when the skill numbers were shown (0-100), when nothing was shown (just a list of skills) and this half-back method showing novice/apprentice/etc. Guess what, there was great fun and great stories under each system.

BUT, people were bonding over "secrets" about what constitutes a fail and how best to train since the beginning. The whole skillup system is a mini-game that some enjoy. I am not a fan of the skillup system. It's just an annoyance to get to the story for me (like the shell of a brazil nut).

Anyway, I am hoping the game succeeds so any change that makes the experience better for new players, I am all for it.

For the idea of showing a * or an ^ next to skills that have been increased, instead of it being a set timer, like 10 minutes, until that goes away, I think it would be better if it reset when your skill is ready to be trained again, when a failure will actually increase your skill. That way you have some awareness of when training it again is worth it or a waste of time that could otherwise be spent focusing on roleplay.

Quote from: Kavrick on June 10, 2024, 02:55:05 AM

Quote from: eska on June 10, 2024, 02:45:57 AMThis will allow people to grind their skills faster. I don't think this improves RP in any way.

I don't see how it'll let them do it faster if it doesn't change skill timers. It just means they don't have to redundantly keep grinding a skill because they don't know if it increased.

I will help me increase the skills faster.

Quote from: Riev on June 09, 2024, 11:07:26 PMThe game uses a hidden dice system, so how do you KNOW you are improving, and aren't on a run of good dice rolls? I suspect you're either intuiting it based on the time you've played and staffed the game, or you are "generally aware" of an improvement.

Would I be correct in saying, then, that you don't "know" you advanced. You're intuiting it because you're "fighting better" or "using fewer tools". So what you know is that in some instances, you aren't failing.

Outside of that, I am still thinking at this point that with all the toggles and nosaves and such that at some point there will need to be multiple help files just to explain what you're turning on or off.

Consistency. This isn't rocket science. In real life, when I shoot at a target with my recurve bow at 40 yards, I know I'm improving because I am finding it easier to *consistently* hit the bullseye, than I did for the past month. I notice that all of THIS month, I'm not missing as much. The dice roll is the variables - wind, how "true" the target has been placed to face me, whether or not a bug has flown into the path of the target (I once shot through a beetle and stuck it to the outer edge of the bullseye), all the random things that can happen when you're shooting a bow in real life - those are the dice.

DESPITE the variables - I am more consistently succeeding. When I try a more challenging target - say, 50 yards, I notice that my shot, after adjusting my aim and finger placement for trajectory (there's a science to it), my 50-yard shot is almost exactly as "not impressive" as my 40-yard shot was, all last month.

In the game, when I used to bounce a knife off a gurth's shell CONSISTENTLY half the time the code had me engaged in combat with the thing, and my hits were doing just nicking and "hit" messages, I noticed the following month that I'm only bouncing maybe 1/4 of the time. Or maybe even only 1/8th of the time. My hits are more consistent, and I'm "wounding" the critter more often, and much quicker, for the whole month compared to how I did last month. I'm also able to dodge and parry its bites. I'm not getting hit hard at all anymore, and when it does make contact, it's only for 1-2hps each time. Compared with last month, when I was getting hit for many more 3-6 hit points than I was 1-3 hit points, and it's sometimes clipping me hard for 7-8 hit points.

That's how I know I've improved. I know, because I pay attention.