Skill Gain Alt Stats - Discussion and Feedback

[Halaster]

See this announcement for a new mechanic we're introducing to skill gain timers:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html

Discuss it as you see fit, though I would like some specific feedback, too.  Specifically:  Do you think any of the skills should have a different secondary stat that affects their timer than what I've listed?  There were a few I could see be something different depending on how you view it.  Note that each skill will only be able to have ONE secondary stat that affects it.

[Lizzie]

See this announcement for a new mechanic we're introducing to skill gain timers:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html

Discuss it as you see fit, though I would like some specific feedback, too.  Specifically:  Do you think any of the skills should have a different secondary stat that affects their timer than what I've listed?  There were a few I could see be something different depending on how you view it.  Note that each skill will only be able to have ONE secondary stat that affects it.

I -usually- reject the idea of prioritizing stats at all, and let the RNG do it for me. Will this new system make prioritizing more important? Or will it not really affect things at all if you don't prioritize?

[Roon]

It won't make much of a difference. Most skills are easy to raise no matter what. The skills that are hard to raise are hard not because the timer is long but because it's difficult to fail (combat skills) or find opportunities to use the skill at all (some crafts and skills like pick and poisoning where you might just not have the things required to try). Shortening the timer doesn't really matter in any of these cases.

I would have liked for stats - wisdom in particular - to increase the chance to gain in the skills that aren't guaranteed to go up on every failure. Wisdom is a "dumpstat" for combat characters in particular because they quickly reach a point where your skill timer doesn't matter because you just don't bump up against it. And for non-combat characters, it isn't a concern anyway since non-combat skills are generally easy to raise.

If it's a lot of work to include wisdom in the skillgain calculations (which I suspect it is), the next-best thing is to improve the stat's bonuses to perception skills. Shift these down two lines and suddenly there will be characters who have a real reason to care about wisdom, even if those concepts are a little bit niche. The undetectable stealth meta could do with a bit of a foil, if you ask me.

[Bogre]

Am I reading this wrong or is it just making it more OK to dump wisdom?

[shadeoux]

Am I reading this wrong or is it just making it more OK to dump wisdom?

This means that if you're a combat character who "dumpstat's" wisdom, but the secondary stat for specific skills is high, you'll gain faster in those skills.

That is how I took it from that fragment of Halaster's post.

[Lizzie]

I think I'll stick with just not prioritizing. Let the system do what it does, hope for the best and roll with the worst.

[Armaddict]

Am I reading this wrong or is it just making it more OK to dump wisdom?

It means wisdom is still always better for skillgains, and having high wisdom with high secondary stat can get you faster gains than before, but if you dumpstat wisdom in favor of your 'primary' stats, you can see faster gains than dumpstatted wisdom before.  But only in the skills of those stats.

So...kind of?  But Wisdom remains super valuable in terms of skill gains.  You just aren't punished as hard for dumpstatting it.

[CirclelessBard]

There were a few I could see be something different depending on how you view it.

Would it be possible to make a skill have a different secondary stat depending on which one is higher? For example, skinning skill gain being affected by the higher of the character's wisdom or the character's agility. If not, the list seems pretty solid, but I think mixing in some "higher of two" or "highest of three" cases might help with the stat being something different depending on how the skill is viewed.

[shadeoux]

Am I reading this wrong or is it just making it more OK to dump wisdom?

It means wisdom is still always better for skillgains, and having high wisdom with high secondary stat can get you faster gains than before, but if you dumpstat wisdom in favor of your 'primary' stats, you can see faster gains than dumpstatted wisdom before.  But only in the skills of those stats.

So...kind of?  But Wisdom remains super valuable in terms of skill gains.  You just aren't punished as hard for dumpstatting it.

That explanation makes sense now. Appreciate it

[Agent_137]

Right direction. Not far enough imo. Still leaves combat PCs with an impossible climb. But maybe I can finally succeed with a city sneaky now that it won't take forever, especially as a city elf. I just want to be able to do cool stuff without investing 20 days into a temporary pc. Between this and sub guild rework to start higher, and the now-old main guild rework... we're getting there. 

[Bogre]

The other issue with this is that it makes the rich get richer in that those lucking out with high stat rolls will now be even better at life, skills and everything than a character with a crap roll.

[Riev]

Can I just ask what the "problem" was that this is intended to fix, or at least address?

[dumbstruck]

I'm curious why scan is 'wisdom' but 'watch' is agility. Do you require agility to watch someone's face? Or the southern direction? Why should this be the one perception skill that is agility?

Other than that, it seems odd and gamey, but I don't really care either way.

[Windstorm]

After some pause to give it due thought, I still don't like these changes? At all? Lowering the importance of wisdom so more people can just, like, by the stats, be unga bunga cavemen and more easily achieve SWORD MASTA status isn't a good thing.

Maybe this was just misguided if well-intended, possibly towards reducing grind? But the end result at least appears to be a full on negative likely to exacerbate problems, not solve them.

[Agent_137]

Can I just ask what the "problem" was that this is intended to fix, or at least address?

It's in the announcement

The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly.

[Kavrick]

I generally like anything which lessens the grind, this is cool and flavorful, I enjoy the idea of having it so my character has talent in some skills and not in others. But I will say this does point out a weird flaw that wisdom is just a strange stat. Dump statting and trying to decide your stats is already strange in a game that only has four stats and RNG in character creation. Most rpgs have around 6 stats which gives you more room to decide what to focus and what to lessen, four stats means having one bad stat is still 25% of your stats being low.

Honestly though, I don't know how to fix this, I don't have a suggestion because adding more stats would be huge work, so aside from that, I like this change! Very forward thinking.

[Riev]

Can I just ask what the "problem" was that this is intended to fix, or at least address?

It's in the announcement

The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly.

So the problem its attacking is "the grind for skills takes too long".

But per the announcement, the only instances where "the grind" takes less time is when you TOTALLY DON'T SUICIDE for high wis and high primary stats. In fact in a couple cases the skill learning is the same or slower. It only serves to benefit in the case where you dump-stat Wisdom but still got a high other stat.

So it really seems to only encourage continuing to dumpstat wisdom because now you're not punished for your choice, or suiciding because if you get high strength + decent wisdom you get a MUCH higher learn rate than before.

I disagree that as presented, it will reduce the grind for anyone but the people who already are willing to game the system to get a combat-oriented character.


That said? Watch and Scan should both be wisdom. I can see watch being on agility, considering if you use it with guard, you'll want high agility to succeed in saving someone. But it doesn't make sense without that explanation.

[Windstorm]

I generally like anything which lessens the grind

I mean I do like agree with this, but this isn't what this particular change is doing.

This particular change is making it so dwarves, giants, and lunkhead humans who chose Wisdom last can grind productively more often.

[Kavrick]

This particular change is making it so dwarves, giants, and lunkhead humans who chose Wisdom last can grind productively more often.

Honestly I kinda wish every race had the same rate of gaining XP. Right now elves are incredibly good because Dex was massively buffed and they learned skills incredibly quickly because of their good wisdom. The combat changes basically made it so Strength = Dexterity when it came to balance, which is good, but the main issue imo was that Wisdom > Endurance. Strength races were paired with Endurance and Dex races paired with Wisdom. This is why towards the end of old Arm's playtime, there were very very few half giants, dwarves and muls compared to before the change.

Also I just think xp gain is more of an ooc advantage, grinding isn't fun, I don't want to have to grind more just because I want to play a different race, that's not even to mention that dwarves, muls and half-giants get the short end of the stick roleplay wise anyway, so anything to make them more bearable is good thing I think.

[roughneck]

I think it's a great.

The only part I disagree with is weapon skills falling under agility. I think they should be strength.

• High agility characters (elves and half-elves) are also higher wisdom characters, this unbalances things in their favour, let's cut the poor dwarves and half-giants a break.
• Agility has a shitload of other skills, including stealth and ranged weapons.
• Charge and trample make no sense in the strength category, they should be traded for weapon skills (there is a reason that horse-jockeys are very small and agile).

Or, maybe, leave slashing and piercing with agility, and chopping and bludgeoning with strength?

[Kavrick]

The only part I disagree with is weapon skills falling under agility. I think they should be strength.

I personally think the easiest and most obvious answer to this is to make it so combat skills scale off strength or agility, depending on which is higher. Otherwise you're honestly blocking a lot of roleplay value behind enforcing 'fighting styles'. You could easily argue that certain fighting styles would be one or the other.

Two handed for example. Two handed swords could be used in a way that is more of a 'dueling' style, which would be agility. But things like hammers, axes and the like could be used in a more brutish way, meaning strength.

Even dual wielding styles could be argued for either strength or agility. Being the quick, flick-wristed dagger wielder or being a maddened, barbarian dual-axe using dwarf.

By making it so the majority of combat skills are agility, it really hurts a lot of the creativity you can have when designing your character. Not to mention what you said, this is another indirect buff to elves, who already had naturally high wisdom. Now, they basically get double the boon to their weapon skill gains, from their high agility, and their high wisdom.

[Halaster]

I'm curious why scan is 'wisdom' but 'watch' is agility. Do you require agility to watch someone's face? Or the southern direction? Why should this be the one perception skill that is agility?

Yeah I wasn't totally sure what to do with watch, happy to change it to wisdom.

[Halaster]

let's cut the poor dwarves and half-giants a break.[/li][/list]

They do get a break with this.  Take a low wisdom, high strength HG.  Their skills (that use strength as a secondary stat) will increase faster than those same stats would under the old method.

[Halaster]

Charge and trample make no sense in the strength category, they should be traded for weapon skills (there is a reason that horse-jockeys are very small and agile).

That makes to me, I'm happy to change those two to agility.

[roughneck]

let's cut the poor dwarves and half-giants a break.[/li][/list]

They do get a break with this.  Take a low wisdom, high strength HG.  Their skills (that use strength as a secondary stat) will increase faster than those same stats would under the old method.

The learning bonus for two-handed and bash would definitely be noticed, but shield-use already gains pretty quickly and the weapon skills are the true holy grail of combat.

It would just make sense of me to either have strength count for weapon skills as well, or have a weapon type or two in the strength category.

But, regardless of my opinion on that (and it is only one person's opinion), I think it's a great design change overall, and I appreciate the engagement. Thanks for responding.