Skill Gain Alt Stats - Discussion and Feedback

[Halaster]

It's a drum I've bashed since I've started playing. The complete RNG in character creation stats feels like a relic of a bygone age and there are good reasons why modern day rpgs, both tabletop, text-based and any other type of roleplaying game have pretty much completely removed RNG from character creation.

We're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

[Kavrick]

We're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

I completely understand that, I don't think you should copy other games just because they're successful or popular, but I do think even discussing it in a vacuum, the amount of RnG in Armageddon character creation is pretty heavy. I've played characters with both abysmal stats and godlike stats and it's pretty night and day. But it's also such a subjective thing that It's a little difficult to discuss.

Maybe I have a bit of a bias, on several occasions I've written up a character I was really excited for just to roll terrible stats, which usually takes the winds out of my sails for the excitement I once had. I understand wanting to have some variety in character creation, but I guess personally I just feel as if there are better ways to go about it? One way for example is having it so stats are random, but always total the same amount, post-modifiers. I've actually seen a few other muds do this, and it results in characters that are either well-balanced, or lop-sided, which can be interesting in it's own way.

At the end of the day I do know that it's a 'design vision' thing, but I do think it's important to keep in mind that I doubt many people enjoy rolling a character with bad stats. And once you do, there's nothing you can really do about it aside from 'deal with it until you die/store', which kinda just sucks. I think I wouldn't be so sore about the topic if it wasn't for the fact that there's nothing you can do once you're stuck with bad stats.

[Roon]

Folks who say this would not help the grind, what in the world?

The timers were never a problem. Any skill that can be raised as fast as the timer allows is a non-problematic skill. When people talk about the "grind," I don't think they mean skills like forage and knifemaking. They mean skills that are either difficult to fail (i.e. many combat skills after mid-level), hard to justify using frequently (e.g. steal) or hard to acquire the things that let you use them (e.g. pick).

Those are the kinds of skills that take a long time and/or require that you do questionable things in pursuit of opportunities to use them, and thus become a grind. Lowering the skill timer doesn't do a whole lot. For the skills that aren't hard to raise, there's no problem that needs solving - and for the skills that are, lowering the timer doesn't help, because those skills aren't held back by the timer but by the fact that the game doesn't offer reasonably accessible opportunities to use or fail them unless you do unrealistic stuff.

Lowering the skill timer doesn't solve any problems. It helps where the help is least needed, and does nothing where it's most needed. Skills that you can raise at will as fast as the timer permits are not skills that needed to go up even faster. The problem is the skills that might still be stuck at journeyman after 15 days of playtime because they just stopped failing, or because there isn't anyone who's able/willing to supply you with lockpicks, or whatever it is that's getting in the way. The skill timer is never the thing that's in the way.

[Roon]

We're not trying to be like them.  I think it's a good idea to pay attention to how other games do things, and if something is a good idea, maybe consider doing the same.  But just because other games do something doesn't mean we need to, or should, or want to.

It is a good idea to reduce the level of "your PC is forever superior/inferior because of a diceroll at the start," which is why absolutely all other forms of gaming did that around the turn of the millennium. Hell, not just other forms of gaming - all other RPIs did it, too. It's only Armageddon that stuck with wildly random stats. Are all other games in existence wrong and only Arm is right, or might it not be the other way around?

Most of all, I would love to hear what the perceived benefits of this current system are supposed to be. Given the fact that you're proposing making stats matter even more (at least in principle), I feel it's fair to ask.

[Halaster]

Are all other games in existence wrong and only Arm is right, or might it not be the other way around?

It's not a matter of "wrong" or "right".  It's a matter of preference and game design.

Most of all, I would love to hear what the perceived benefits of this current system are supposed to be. Given the fact that you're proposing making stats matter even more (at least in principle), I feel it's fair to ask.

From the announcement found here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html
"The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly."

[Roon]

Why is it your preference? What is it that you prefer about this current stat system that compels you to keep it this way when literally all other games of every type discovered long ago that it wasn't worthwhile? "Because I said so" isn't much of an answer.

From the announcement found here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60327.0.html
"The overall goal of this is to help towards making a small reduction in The Grind for most characters.  It also introduces a new dynamic when considering character stats if you are concerned about learning skills more quickly."

That wasn't what I meant to ask. I was asking about the nature of this "design preference" for a stat system where you might roll 19 17 17 15, or 16 12 8 7, based purely on raw luck that you can do nothing about. I appreciate that this isn't quite the original topic, but when I made a thread to discuss just this, no staff members weighed in at all. Feel free to move these posts into that thread if you like, but I do hope you'll give an actual answer.

[Halaster]

Ah I misunderstood your ask, too.  So this thread is about feedback on this specific idea, if you have any about it.  I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion about our stat system, sorry.  I'll say that I didn't design the system 30+ years ago for stats, it's what we have, and there's no interest in changing it at this time.

[Bogre]

Just because a change doesn't fix all scenarios doesn't mean a change shouldn't happen.  You guys are right, this doesn't do much for some groups of people, but it does for other groups.  It's still OK to make the change.

[/quote]

I don't think anyone expects all scenarios to be fixed. But the concern I have is with a change that maximizes downside for something uncontrollable (rolling poorly) and maximizes upside for meta choices (min-maxing character priority or race choice) is potentially a less egalitarian way of achieving the goal of grind reduction.

[Bogre]

Folks who say this would not help the grind, what in the world?

If the stat you would naturally prioritize then helps you gain skills faster, you are grinding less. Couple that with higher starting skills for mundane classes and subclasses, and we are on fast-track baby.

Yeah- I read Halaster's post. This change shortens skill gain timers, not the instance of how you gain a skill. You're only gaining the benefit from that if you're really playing or doing skill training lot in a short time period IRL, consecutively. So yeah - it'll probably help those characters at the very beginning, when they're super excited, and play for an entire Saturday. Maybe it helps you get 3-4 forage or armorcrafting skill ups that Saturday as opposed to 2. But for those logging in more intermittently, anytime past the timer expiring and your next log in isn't effected and so a longer timer is kinda meaningless. So it helps in the specific instance you are hardcore doing things to build skills, in a near/consecutive play session, yes, it would decrease the time that you're required to do that.  And trying to gain a ton of skills in a single play session would qualify to me as grinding.

If I'm trying to get skills on a character I'll typically do once an IRL day than leave it for the next IRL day, or do morning / evening. The grind in this case won't be affected, as it depends more on % to skill up and ability to get a fail in whatever skill than skill timers.

As Roon mentioned, for many skills, it's really an opportunity thing. The more palatable reduction to the grind is to maybe make the difficulty of getting to journeyman in skills, or whatever, less, by potentially making them notch more.

(Numbers made up)
If you currently require 60 fails to get to advanced, for instance, and your skill timer in the new system is 3 instead of 4 hours, you could do that in 1 week (7.5 days), assuming you logged in at every time you qualified to bump and went to train. Say you played a lot like it was your job, half the day - 12 hours. You could get to advanced in 15 days (~2 weeks). It takes the 4 hour timer character 10 days of solid play, and 20 days - playing half the day. Sure, the grind is reduced minimally in the total start->finish time, but not the time required to be invested, as each character needs to find 60 skill instances.  If you logged in once a day, it would take both characters 60 days. The time required meet the more infrequently you play.

If you doubled the skill notch gain from 0-30, and kept the timers the same, it would take 7.5 days of solid play, and 15 days of playing 12 hours a day -  same as reducing the timers, in this specific incidence. Yet you would only have to be doing things/foraging rocks/sparring/breaking sticks/grinding/whatever to skill up 45 times, as opposed to 60 times. If you were a daily player, it would take you 45 days as opposed to 60, saving you two whole weeks. You would have to break 15 less picks, or find 15 less scrab shells. And you would reach the halfway point faster - meaning your character could get into plots and survive getting scrabbed MUCH faster.

-That-, to me, is reducing grind, because it reduces the hoops you have to jump through, not meaning you can just jump through said hoops at a faster rate.

It's clear what option I think would make more sense.

[Halaster]

I tend to agree with Kavrick...I think Pierce and Swords should be agility secondary, and Axes and Bludgeoning Strength. It would align it with the secondary skills that are specific for each weapon type:

Swords -> Riposte -> Agility as a Secondary Stat for Both
Pierce -> Backstab -> Agility as a Secondary Stat for Both
Bludgeon -> Sap -> Strength as a Secondary Stat for Both
Axe -> Hack -> Strength as a Secondary Stat for Both

Non-Weapon Skill Changes I would make:

Bandage -> Agility as a Secondary Stat
Poison -> Agility as a Secondary Stat
Guarding -> Agility as a Secondary Stat
Threaten -> Agility as a Secondary Stat
Sling Use -> Strength as a Secondary Stat
Kick -> Strength as a Secondary Stat

Watch -> Just Wisdom
Search -> Just Wisdom
Direction Sense -> Just Wisdom
Ride -> Just Wisdom

I like and agree with all these.

[Kavrick]

The only ones I don't think I agree with are bandage and poison. Both of these skills really feel like "knowledge" skills rather than something relying on alacrity, so wisdom feels more fitting to me.

[Dresan]

There is a reason most people train once a day. We don't really know our timers and spamming skills tends to be looked upon unfavorably. Unless you are rather twinky, this won't have much impact on the majority skills even if you are playing for hours at a time.

Weapon skills alone are a different beast, this may have an impact on weapon skill gains themselves. This means you might reach plateau a bit quicker which then turns into an opportunity game once again.

So while the change may help with plateauing weapon skills, it does not quite address the feelings of fustrating grind the players have expressed over the years.

The change does also make wisdom more of  dump stat. The game seemingly going from 4 viable stats to 3 does have on impact on overall experience even if it seems minor at first.

Not quite the feedback staff probably wants to hear but its still feedback none the less. After all, the sentiment for this change didn't just pop out randomly for no reason at all. There is a clear intent to this change which may have some unintended outcomes.

[Roon]

I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion about our stat system, sorry.  I'll say that I didn't design the system 30+ years ago for stats, it's what we have, and there's no interest in changing it at this time.

Well, that's your decision and it's up to you, but you did put "Overhaul / fix stats" on the list of stretch goals for seasons. While I appreciate that the stretch goals are an 'if we have time' thing, it's peculiar to see it on the list and then hear that there's no interest in changing it. Either way, I'll resort to the topical thread for any further discussion on the stat system.

[dumbstruck]

I like all the changes, but I might make camping use endurance as a secondary stat if a second stat for it is being considered. Only because I've lived in a tent lol. That takes some endurance.

[Halaster]

I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion about our stat system, sorry.  I'll say that I didn't design the system 30+ years ago for stats, it's what we have, and there's no interest in changing it at this time.

Well, that's your decision and it's up to you, but you did put "Overhaul / fix stats" on the list of stretch goals for seasons. While I appreciate that the stretch goals are an 'if we have time' thing, it's peculiar to see it on the list and then hear that there's no interest in changing it. Either way, I'll resort to the topical thread for any further discussion on the stat system.

Yeah, that's fair to call me on that. There's no real interest in changing it right now, because we've just got too much other stuff on our plate.  And that's because it is not an easy change.  A minor tweak here or there is one thing, but a meaningful overhaul of stats is a really big deal, because soooo much code and other systems rely on the stat system being what it is.  If people wanna brainstorm and thought-experiment over it, by all means go for it (in another thread!), just not sure how much I can participate right now.


EDIT:  Aaaand I see you did here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60269.0.html

[Bushranger]

Agility-based (meaning, agility score affects gain timers):
...
- the following Manipulation skills:
...
    - trap

If the trap skill is back does this mean blasting powder is also returning?! 



Or is Help Skill Trap correct when it still reads "The trap skill is no longer implemented."? 

[Halaster]

Or is Help Skill Trap correct when it still reads "The trap skill is no longer implemented."? 

I guess you didn't see my answer when you asked me in Discord.  No, trap skill isn't back, I wasn't paying attention to the fact it was gone when I listed it.  I've removed it from the list.

[Roon]

The Overlord giveth, and then he taketh away.

[eska]

IMO Component Crafting should be wisdom instead of agility.
It is a magick related skill on the other hand a crafting skill.
As a crafting skill it requires some level of agility but the most important thing regarding Component Crafting is knowing what to do and how to do.