Do You like the New Karma point and class options?

[Krath]

Keep it simple, just vote no comments.

[Windstorm]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

[ShaiHulud]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

And, to mention, this would be a second or third time for some.

[Windstorm]

I didn't mean to be dismissive about it, but to me it's not a personal thing of losing karma options, it's a rework of a system that wasn't working and we need to let it play out.

The initial bamf of losing play options obviously wasn't going to be a great PR result but the system needed to be reworked and most people agreed on that, that I saw. It's just there's no way to have it neatly transitioned into a new system in one clean sweep of a post.

This isn't something the staff came up with in an hour and it needs more than an hour to see the results of.

Overall, seeing the forest through the trees, I think it's very clearly and easily a net positive, but there's a bump or two to get over and I hope, given the recent direction the staff's taken, that people will let them have a chance to try what they want to try when - again - most of us were in fairly clear agreement in a past thread discussing it that the 3 karma setup had a lot of flaws in which the intended goal was coming up short.

Lets give them a chance and let things play out.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale, that was supposed to have been compressed for a whole laundry list of reasons gone through here (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg1083958.html#msg1083958). One of which of course was supposed to be to allow more players to access those higher karma options. Clearly that didn't pan out, eh. Now it's not 8 karma, but 10. Back and better than ever.

How many times do you have to lose good roleplayers to keep from telling griefers to get the fuck out? Griefers will be perfectly happy smacking each other around with bone swords on suntanned mundane karma free humans just fine. You don't need karma to pk.

[Usiku]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale

Absolutely not, no.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale

Absolutely not, no.

That's something at least. It gates my favorite and the most playable and interesting to me thing out of /even special app/ range for me. You know, the one I'm about 2 IC years into playing (I had thought and hoped responsibly) again. For not the first time, but at least the dozenth time in as many years.

Not smooth transition, no.

I am literally willing to leave over it again. Just like /the last time the change to that option put it out of my play range/.

I wasn't willing to leave over the violins. I wasn't willing to leave over Bebop. This. This got me.

I may come back. When I can play something I want.

Or when there are violins.

[Usiku]

Or when there are violins.

I'm upset about the violins too.

[dumbstruck]

Or when there are violins.

I'm upset about the violins too.

Sis, you are a Producer. I would have hoped you could change that. If as a Producer, /you cannot effect change/ what hope does /anyone else/ have?

What point is there in any one of these people going around telling the other to go 'be the change' and all that?

I stan you, you and Kaathe, of the remaining staff, I won't pull punches or mince words, are probably my outright favorites. But like damn. If you are upset over it and can't change it, what hope does anyone here have to being happy about something on this /game/ that we should be /enjoying/?

[undoubtedly]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

Nothing I like to play has changed. Any options I lost, I'm unbothered by losing. My primary issue with the change aside, I think karma gating leadership is a poor choice.

I really just think it could have been communicated way better. A lot of us try hard even if we're not up to standard yet, and it feels like, if I'm honest, being told off but not knowing why.

I do appreciate the extensive work, passion and the intent however behind the proposed change, I just think it could have been presented better. 

[Lizzie]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

[dunecrawler]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

I don't need to see the system in action to know that the vast majority of my current magick options will be gone and the chances of ever getting them back are unclear. Why does the conversion have to be so punishing?

[Lizzie]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

I don't need to see the system in action to know that the vast majority of my current magick options will be gone and the chances of ever getting them back are unclear. Why does the conversion have to be so punishing?

I'll be losing them too.  This is a poll asking for personal opinions.

So my personal opinion is: I'm not all that interested in the 8,9, and 10-karma options. So not having 8, 9, or 10 karma is not a big deal to me. The 7th karma options are definitely a big deal to me, but as someone who will start out with 6 karma in the new system, I can just special app those. I have long-lived characters. So I don't worry about not being able to play what I want, when I want, just because I have to wait for the special app window to open up again.

For me, I'm a wait and see. I maintain strongly that a 5 karma system would be more efficient and less complicated for players and staff to implement. But that's not on the table. This new 10-karma system is.

So I'll roll out with 6 karma. I'll see how long it takes to earn the 7th point. And then I'll decide whether I like the system or not.

[dunecrawler]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

[Usiku]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

I'm not sure who you are so I don't know definitely how much karma you have now. But if you say you can access all the classes via spec app, then I would assume 2. That would put you at 4 after the transition. You can spec app up to 4 karma levels above.. giving you access to the majority of magick classes and needing only 2 more karma (which would now not require a 6 month wait for a review to gain) to have access to everything again?

[dunecrawler]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

I'm not sure who you are so I don't know definitely how much karma you have now. But if you say you can access all the classes via spec app, then I would assume 2. That would put you at 4 after the transition. You can spec app up to 4 karma levels above.. giving you access to the majority of magick classes and needing only 2 more karma (which would now not require a 6 month wait for a review to gain) to have access to everything again?

I'm at two karma, yes. On my clan account for absolutely non-nefarious reasons, I promise.
This is two anxiety-inducing karma reviews (there's a reason I've never put one in over the past years), six months + whatever is the wait time for those requests, and special apps just to get back to where I am now. In the best-case scenario, assuming that none of those 3+ requests get denied.

[Usiku]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

[seltzer]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

I see this.

From the outside looking in it just strikes me as a wildly unrealistic expectation. It's ambitious, and I like that, but I think that it requires a level of staff buy-in that doesn't appear to level with what I've seen in the last few years. I can imagine it working for a few months before the rumor and negativity mill gets whipped up into insane levels that are untenable and create an absolutely nightmarish working condition.

On one hand I think the larger gradient of choices is a great change and on the other I think the potential for insane reddit/discord/shitter board drama is off the charts and a massive step backward.

I really support the changes and I hope I'm wrong about the one enormous red flag.

[Pariah]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

I think it's great in "Theory" but you guys are too few and far between to be paying attention that much.  Otherwise I wouldn't have to explain where I've hit the various points of "leadership" in a Karma review, if staff was paying attention they would have just seen it.

[dunecrawler]

We're just skeptical because that has never worked great in the past, not even in the time before karma reviews. It also puts off peak players at another disadvantage - there's just less staff watching, even with the occasional EU staffer. Between absences and time zone conflicts, clan staff seem to be rarely available at the same time as me.

Can storytellers give karma to people outside of the clans/area they're overseeing?

[lostinspace]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

That's all fine and well, but I'm not going to give the new system the benefit of the doubt, because it doesn't give me benefit of the doubt. The system says, directly, that 13+ roles that I was trusted with prior to the change I am no longer trusted with. And that I should TRUST that I will earn them back expeditiously through this system. I don't believe that. If it was meant to be so quick and easy to earn them back, why were they removed in the first place? If they're not meant to be earned back quickly and easily, why I am being punished with the removal of those roles?

[Feu de Joie]

Raptor_Dan
Jimpka_Moss
SickofDreaming
Kevo

Bonfire, signing off.


Thanks for the good times, players and staff. I aim to build a decentralized RPI, that invests 'Trust' into it's players and only removes it after bad behavior, a place that recognizes abuse can only come with power, and that bad behavior from players is bad behavior, but bad behavior from staff (because of the power dynamics) is abuse. Abuse often hurts, but so can disabusing someone of their previously held ignorance....



Which is why some many players' opinions seem to pain you.

[Master Color]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

The bigger problem is that I don't think this is going to change anything. Usiku and Brokkr are going to burn themselves out by implementing this. It won't solve any of Armageddon's problems. And if the game is still here in five years, the next batch of staff will be scratching their heads wondering if they should make a 5 step karma system.

TLDR What we really need is a full guild krok elementalist. Make it eleven karma.

[Lotion]

we take those

[Halaster]

In light of https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60029.msg1099622.html#msg1099622 I'm curious if anyone intends to change their vote (click Remove Vote at the top if you do)

[Tailong]

I indeed, did change my vote. The clarification was much appreciated

[papertiger]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

[dunecrawler]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

[undoubtedly]

In light of https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60029.msg1099622.html#msg1099622 I'm curious if anyone intends to change their vote (click Remove Vote at the top if you do)

Changed my vote from no (but will play) to yes. The options are a bit limited, I'm still dubious about the gating of leader roles but otherwise think it's a pretty great proposed outline despite how it was presented!

[Pariah]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

[Armaddict]

Raptor_Dan
Jimpka_Moss
SickofDreaming
Kevo

Bonfire, signing off.


Thanks for the good times, players and staff. I aim to build a decentralized RPI, that invests 'Trust' into it's players and only removes it after bad behavior, a place that recognizes abuse can only come with power, and that bad behavior from players is bad behavior, but bad behavior from staff (because of the power dynamics) is abuse. Abuse often hurts, but so can disabusing someone of their previously held ignorance....



Which is why some many players' opinions seem to pain you.

I mean...a little melodramatic.

But this is precisely what I mean by once things are done, it's a lot harder to undo them.  People are now upset because of this change, which can be referenced back to a change in the past that ended up having unforeseen consequences that poked out over the long term.  They're trying to fix it...and can't.  Which is why taking a harsh critical look at what other effects of changes there could be is important.

Flattening out karma was a bad idea.  Building a culture where having karma meant you couldn't be rejected for a role based on what it was, was a bad idea.  It was just something that was going to have a hard time the longer it went on, because every single point had so much baggage associated with it.  Removing one was too big of a deal.  Gaining one was a huge jump in expectation and entitlement.

But 'taking it back' always stings when people benefited from it, even if it did not benefit that much else.

[Armaddict]

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

Full gicks are gemmed only and if the first thing you do is go out alone you're probably kind of missing the point of it.  Full gicks do not need to be fully spelled up to be crazy.  Full gicks are not useless in most scenarios, but they are in some.  Advanced subs are not the new useless, they're quite powerful at providing full gicks plenty of survivability and versatility.  This is all pretty hyperbolic.

I will say that I think we should be removing any limit on special apps at all though.  Just...let people special app.  And just...let people get used to the idea that sometimes you get told no.  It's really not that big of a deal.

[Krath]

I really hate how the most civil conversation , without the stuff I hate, happens in the thread I ask no one to post on...lol. Love you all

[Master Color]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

[Armaddict]

I changed mine because I like the tiering and everything just fine.  I don't like the setup for how it's used/earned.

[Pariah]

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

Without getting too deep into it, I wanna know who on staff thought that was a good idea to create that ability, it's just game breaking.

[Riev]

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

Without getting too deep into it, I wanna know who on staff thought that was a good idea to create that ability, it's just game breaking.

The same staff that thought it was okay to make clan-protected super-powerful mindworms that can out people from across the Known with zero effort.

Regardless, on point? I'm not changing my answer. Staff have already abandoned my sponsored roles, making me never want to play one again. They've chased me away from the Discord for expressing concerns. They denigrated me and made me feel small for reporting actual in-game attempts to circumvent code by Sponsored Roles/Leadership PCs. Now I have to ask them to please readjust my karma based on how they FEEL about my ability to play the game?

Maybe if I could request specific staff to do the review. I know which ones I would suggest, but knowing it would still have to pass by the staff that do not trust or respect me? No. I'm still not playing.

[Pariah]

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

Without getting too deep into it, I wanna know who on staff thought that was a good idea to create that ability, it's just game breaking.

The same staff that thought it was okay to make clan-protected super-powerful mindworms that can out people from across the Known with zero effort.

Regardless, on point? I'm not changing my answer. Staff have already abandoned my sponsored roles, making me never want to play one again. They've chased me away from the Discord for expressing concerns. They denigrated me and made me feel small for reporting actual in-game attempts to circumvent code by Sponsored Roles/Leadership PCs. Now I have to ask them to please readjust my karma based on how they FEEL about my ability to play the game?

Maybe if I could request specific staff to do the review. I know which ones I would suggest, but knowing it would still have to pass by the staff that do not trust or respect me? No. I'm still not playing.

Usiku is probably the most fair, Brokkr the most stubborn (It's okay, I'm stubborn too) Halaster I don't know if he's even doing that shit anymore.

No offense against the ST's but they always felt like they had to ask permission to do -everything-.

I think this new karma thing is supposed to give them more power to just make the call if I'm reading it right.

[Fredd]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

As someone who plays in Tuluk a lot. I can say that this doesn't seem to happen anymore.

I have seen a few different 'forbidden'

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

concepts filter through in the bit over a year since it's reopening.

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

As someone who has played in Tuluk a lot since it has reopened. I can say this doesn't seem to happen anymore. I've seen witches of all different stripes pass through without getting 'Faithfuled.'

Are the templars still hunting mages down? 100% But whatever they used to have that let them just look at you and know you are a sorc. or whatever must have been removed when they stopped being 'Lirathans' and started being monks... I mean the Unified Order.

so If you wanna play some of that 'i have to live my life in hiding' rp, you could do it in Tuluk now, as the consequences of being caught aren't just a gem, the stakes are high enough and fair enough to be fun, at least in my opinion. (this concept is on my 'to-do' list of roles in fact)

[Pariah]

As someone who has played in Tuluk a lot since it has reopened. I can say this doesn't seem to happen anymore. I've seen witches of all different stripes pass through without getting 'Faithfuled.'

Are the templars still hunting mages down? 100% But whatever they used to have that let them just look at you and know you are a sorc. or whatever must have been removed when they stopped being 'Lirathans' and started being monks... I mean the Unified Order.

Holy fuck, clean up your quoting sir.

But yes, I believe the most game breaking part of northern Templars was removed.

[Usiku]

Regardless, on point? I'm not changing my answer. Staff have already abandoned my sponsored roles, making me never want to play one again. They've chased me away from the Discord for expressing concerns. They denigrated me and made me feel small for reporting actual in-game attempts to circumvent code by Sponsored Roles/Leadership PCs. Now I have to ask them to please readjust my karma based on how they FEEL about my ability to play the game?

Maybe if I could request specific staff to do the review. I know which ones I would suggest, but knowing it would still have to pass by the staff that do not trust or respect me? No. I'm still not playing.

I think you're a wonderful player and I hope that you change your mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Riev]

I think you're a wonderful player and I hope that you change your mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You don't know me wanna fight?

But yes, I believe the most game breaking part of northern Templars was removed.

Your welcome, ENTIRE GAME. I was sacrificed at the altar for this to be changed, if slightly.

[Pariah]

Regardless, on point? I'm not changing my answer. Staff have already abandoned my sponsored roles, making me never want to play one again. They've chased me away from the Discord for expressing concerns. They denigrated me and made me feel small for reporting actual in-game attempts to circumvent code by Sponsored Roles/Leadership PCs. Now I have to ask them to please readjust my karma based on how they FEEL about my ability to play the game?

Maybe if I could request specific staff to do the review. I know which ones I would suggest, but knowing it would still have to pass by the staff that do not trust or respect me? No. I'm still not playing.

I think you're a wonderful player and I hope that you change your mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To add onto this, I enjoyed playing with one of your recent characters very much.  I'd give ya 10 Karma if I was in charge.

[Usiku]

You don't know me wanna fight?

You sent me my first ever staff kudos I think. I'm pretty easy to win over.

[Shaydee]

Regardless, on point? I'm not changing my answer. Staff have already abandoned my sponsored roles, making me never want to play one again. They've chased me away from the Discord for expressing concerns. They denigrated me and made me feel small for reporting actual in-game attempts to circumvent code by Sponsored Roles/Leadership PCs. Now I have to ask them to please readjust my karma based on how they FEEL about my ability to play the game?

Maybe if I could request specific staff to do the review. I know which ones I would suggest, but knowing it would still have to pass by the staff that do not trust or respect me? No. I'm still not playing.

I think you're a wonderful player and I hope that you change your mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To add onto this, I enjoyed playing with one of your recent characters very much.  I'd give ya 10 Karma if I was in charge.

Not to sound like a broken record buuuuut, I've also played a with a few of your characters and I learned a lot from those times! I think you're a great player from the interactions I've had!

[Riev]

D'aww.

Still no. Maybe some day, but over half my life on some characters lasting 50+ days means I should wait until all this shakes out at best.

[mansa]

But yes, I believe the most game breaking part of northern Templars was removed.

Your welcome, ENTIRE GAME. I was sacrificed at the altar for this to be changed, if slightly.

Lololololol

[Master Color]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

As someone who plays in Tuluk a lot. I can say that this doesn't seem to happen anymore.

I have seen a few different 'forbidden'

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

concepts filter through in the bit over a year since it's reopening.

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

You still can spam cast your void magicks if you get it spec apped though even if you didn't have all your karma points. Would people really run through a lot more than 2 spec apps in a year? Would using a spec app on a supergick be a terrible thing?

Full guild mages are very, very fragile glass cannons. You might end up with two dead ones very quickly.

Yeah, a full guild mage, while POTENTIALLY powerful, has to be spelled up and ready to be that deadly gamebreaking, over powered mess.  Their combat skills are non-existent so if they get jumped and aren't in super Saiyan mode, they are fucking dead.

So imagine you waited three weeks to get approved, have never played this gick before, don't understand the nuance of spell X, somehow noob it up and get murdered by a Templar/Raider/Insertbadthing two days into the character, welp there goes one of your spec apps.

That's why spec apps aren't really the solution, it just takes bad luck sometimes.  I've had full gicks who didn't have direction sense and failed walking north five times in a row, boom fall into a pit, insta-dead.

But I'm still out that six months worth of spec app. (2 per year)

Buddy.

I had a sorcerer that took three goddamn months to approve to just to get Faithful-Ladied in a couple days played after she read my pc's background.

That was ten years ago. I'm still mad.

As someone who has played in Tuluk a lot since it has reopened. I can say this doesn't seem to happen anymore. I've seen witches of all different stripes pass through without getting 'Faithfuled.'

Are the templars still hunting mages down? 100% But whatever they used to have that let them just look at you and know you are a sorc. or whatever must have been removed when they stopped being 'Lirathans' and started being monks... I mean the Unified Order.

so If you wanna play some of that 'i have to live my life in hiding' rp, you could do it in Tuluk now, as the consequences of being caught aren't just a gem, the stakes are high enough and fair enough to be fun, at least in my opinion. (this concept is on my 'to-do' list of roles in fact)

I appreciate that that's not a thing anymore.

[dumbstruck]

The controversy of the decision amongst portions of the veteran playerbase literally boils down to this at the end of the day:

We play the game for fun and because we love the world and setting.

Staff have a 'karma' system they use to rate and keep tabs of players, but the players do not have that. They only have their feet. They have a present or absent vote.

When players take staff's karma away, they leave the world and setting they love because they no longer trust the people that run it.

And players are being lost like a drip for a long time.

And staff keep trying to manage and reorganize players, and minimize and things like that.

Players will never have the level of control that staff do, that is unrealistic. But they do karma reviews too. And when enough things happen even absentee ones dock karma (and leave, following the analogy).

Neither side trusts the other. It's like a hostage situation. It's not good.

There's a few newer players, or really fringe players who are willing to trust because they haven't been burned enough or are indifferent enough. There are a few staff that are new enough, or kind enough. But it's a fringe on both sides.

And making a big show about how you can further rate how much or little you trust the people who are already having issues with trusting you, is... in many cases being received as borderline insulting, at best tonedeaf.

I keep following the discussion on this and wishing something would change and not expecting it to. Or at least not in a way that is substantial, satisfying, and shows any trust in people like my husband to do more rather than less.

I don't understand how anyone who was behind this possibly thought it was a good decision except for hubris borne of people 'just dealing with' things that they earnestly hated in order to enjoy the scenery and framework of the box it was built in. I have worked with half a dozen games over the years now, some of which have also been around since the nineties (Edge of Midnight built in 1998, still running, for example), and none of them had a staff that was as proud and prone to the 'but I'm a volunteer', and so prone to showing such contempt for the players they claim to be there to support.

I really wish that I had had the understanding of game design and the knowledge of text based gaming that I have now when I was on Arm staff. It might have given me the confidence to be more proactive both in my projects chosen, and in my attempts to work with others on the staff team. It certainly would have emboldened me to say something when I heard something. Many times.

When I first saw this announcement I was furious. I mean I was so furious I did not sleep that night. Now I am just sad. Every time I have made a suggestion for 15 years it has not been taken. And many times to the detriment of the game and active loss of more than one players.

I do not like the karma options and this is the second or third time I've been boxed out of playing the type of whirans that can make you invisible even though I think anyone who has ever seen me play them can attest I am generally pretty responsible with them. I pked 2 people on one once 13 years ago. The one that seems bitter about it is kind of ironic as there was a long plot involved with a rogue witch befriending a templar to get the templar to betray info and a whole bunch of other elaborate shit behind it, in addition to the whisper that I managed to give them for RP while being forced to reel lock them to keep them from instaavoiding death using a broken spell that has since been fixed (old stone mages likely know which one I mean).

I am far from the only one who has been boxed out of the things they love more than once. But I'm the one who is literally dying (of heart failure), so my time matters to me, and waiting your random monthslong periods over and over again to even be able to special app for my favorite role as an explorer type as playable again? (assuming that it is not torpedoed from ever being available) feels really personal, really immediate, and really shitty. I am literally on a limited time line in real life. And padding out pointless real life time wait listing is very upsetting.

[betweenford]

The other thread is currently unaccessible due to moderation but I just want to say that the two vivaduan subclasses Healer and Creation being on the same level for karma is really weird to me.

Healer is genuinely the weakest built Vivaduan subclass, and has alot of very very very very niche spells. Creation and Corruption have the ball very much in their court when it comes to potentially killing someone, causing massive amounts of damage, and being potentially threatening.

I would also argue that Creation is a better "combat healer" archetype than Healer itself.

[Coda]

The other thread is currently unaccessible due to moderation but I just want to say that the two vivaduan subclasses Healer and Creation being on the same level for karma is really weird to me.

Healer is genuinely the weakest built Vivaduan subclass, and has alot of very very very very niche spells. Creation and Corruption have the ball very much in their court when it comes to potentially killing someone, causing massive amounts of damage, and being potentially threatening.

I would also argue that Creation is a better "combat healer" archetype than Healer itself.

Neither of those exist any longer I thought? Or did they return in the new (old) karma system? My eyes admittedly glazed over a bit after reading the fifty four point series of metrics required to gain karma, so I may have missed it.

[betweenford]

The other thread is currently unaccessible due to moderation but I just want to say that the two vivaduan subclasses Healer and Creation being on the same level for karma is really weird to me.

Healer is genuinely the weakest built Vivaduan subclass, and has alot of very very very very niche spells. Creation and Corruption have the ball very much in their court when it comes to potentially killing someone, causing massive amounts of damage, and being potentially threatening.

I would also argue that Creation is a better "combat healer" archetype than Healer itself.

Neither of those exist any longer I thought? Or did they return in the new (old) karma system? My eyes admittedly glazed over a bit after reading the fifty four point series of metrics required to gain karma, so I may have missed it.

You can still specapp the vivaduan subclasses. Healer and Creation are at the same level. Corruption is at a higher level.

IMO, Healer should stay where it is. Corruption should stay where it is. Creation should be at the same karma level as Corruption or higher due to the coded power of the subclass.

My personal tier list:
Creation > Corruption > Healer

[Coda]

Ah. Fair enough! I think they fixed one super broken thing, but creation is still significantly better than healing, I agree.

[Tuannon]

I think the healer should be on the same level as the most basic Badwater option, because people will throw their fear of magickers out the window for them sweet heals.