Do You like the New Karma point and class options?

[Krath]

Keep it simple, just vote no comments.

[Windstorm]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

[ShaiHulud]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

And, to mention, this would be a second or third time for some.

[Windstorm]

I didn't mean to be dismissive about it, but to me it's not a personal thing of losing karma options, it's a rework of a system that wasn't working and we need to let it play out.

The initial bamf of losing play options obviously wasn't going to be a great PR result but the system needed to be reworked and most people agreed on that, that I saw. It's just there's no way to have it neatly transitioned into a new system in one clean sweep of a post.

This isn't something the staff came up with in an hour and it needs more than an hour to see the results of.

Overall, seeing the forest through the trees, I think it's very clearly and easily a net positive, but there's a bump or two to get over and I hope, given the recent direction the staff's taken, that people will let them have a chance to try what they want to try when - again - most of us were in fairly clear agreement in a past thread discussing it that the 3 karma setup had a lot of flaws in which the intended goal was coming up short.

Lets give them a chance and let things play out.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale, that was supposed to have been compressed for a whole laundry list of reasons gone through here (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg1083958.html#msg1083958). One of which of course was supposed to be to allow more players to access those higher karma options. Clearly that didn't pan out, eh. Now it's not 8 karma, but 10. Back and better than ever.

How many times do you have to lose good roleplayers to keep from telling griefers to get the fuck out? Griefers will be perfectly happy smacking each other around with bone swords on suntanned mundane karma free humans just fine. You don't need karma to pk.

[Usiku]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale

Absolutely not, no.

[dumbstruck]

I wonder with the new system if there will also be an unpublished policy of 'keeping most players' under 5 karma the way there was when it was an 8 (not 7, karma scale

Absolutely not, no.

That's something at least. It gates my favorite and the most playable and interesting to me thing out of /even special app/ range for me. You know, the one I'm about 2 IC years into playing (I had thought and hoped responsibly) again. For not the first time, but at least the dozenth time in as many years.

Not smooth transition, no.

I am literally willing to leave over it again. Just like /the last time the change to that option put it out of my play range/.

I wasn't willing to leave over the violins. I wasn't willing to leave over Bebop. This. This got me.

I may come back. When I can play something I want.

Or when there are violins.

[Usiku]

Or when there are violins.

I'm upset about the violins too.

[dumbstruck]

Or when there are violins.

I'm upset about the violins too.

Sis, you are a Producer. I would have hoped you could change that. If as a Producer, /you cannot effect change/ what hope does /anyone else/ have?

What point is there in any one of these people going around telling the other to go 'be the change' and all that?

I stan you, you and Kaathe, of the remaining staff, I won't pull punches or mince words, are probably my outright favorites. But like damn. If you are upset over it and can't change it, what hope does anyone here have to being happy about something on this /game/ that we should be /enjoying/?

[undoubtedly]

In trademark defiance of your telling us not to comment, I have to mention: this is a loaded poll.

There needs to be an option that says, "I will have lost karma options and I'm primarily displeased about that" because that's mostly what the complaints are about, if we're being real.

Nothing I like to play has changed. Any options I lost, I'm unbothered by losing. My primary issue with the change aside, I think karma gating leadership is a poor choice.

I really just think it could have been communicated way better. A lot of us try hard even if we're not up to standard yet, and it feels like, if I'm honest, being told off but not knowing why.

I do appreciate the extensive work, passion and the intent however behind the proposed change, I just think it could have been presented better. 

[Lizzie]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

[dunecrawler]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

I don't need to see the system in action to know that the vast majority of my current magick options will be gone and the chances of ever getting them back are unclear. Why does the conversion have to be so punishing?

[Lizzie]

It's a loaded poll because there's no option that says:

5) Since the system hasn't even implemented yet, and none of you have had the experience of seeing it in action yet, and will probably need a month after its implementation to see how requests regarding that implementation work out...my vote is "I don't know yet."

That's the one I'd pick.

I don't need to see the system in action to know that the vast majority of my current magick options will be gone and the chances of ever getting them back are unclear. Why does the conversion have to be so punishing?

I'll be losing them too.  This is a poll asking for personal opinions.

So my personal opinion is: I'm not all that interested in the 8,9, and 10-karma options. So not having 8, 9, or 10 karma is not a big deal to me. The 7th karma options are definitely a big deal to me, but as someone who will start out with 6 karma in the new system, I can just special app those. I have long-lived characters. So I don't worry about not being able to play what I want, when I want, just because I have to wait for the special app window to open up again.

For me, I'm a wait and see. I maintain strongly that a 5 karma system would be more efficient and less complicated for players and staff to implement. But that's not on the table. This new 10-karma system is.

So I'll roll out with 6 karma. I'll see how long it takes to earn the 7th point. And then I'll decide whether I like the system or not.

[dunecrawler]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

[Usiku]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

I'm not sure who you are so I don't know definitely how much karma you have now. But if you say you can access all the classes via spec app, then I would assume 2. That would put you at 4 after the transition. You can spec app up to 4 karma levels above.. giving you access to the majority of magick classes and needing only 2 more karma (which would now not require a 6 month wait for a review to gain) to have access to everything again?

[dunecrawler]

Cool. I am not happy with 4 karma options only. I'm going from access to most of the options (all of them with special apps) to - Full Guild viv, touched, and some special app options.

I like playing magickers, but the last one died more almost exactly two years ago today. Now I don't get to play any other than touched and a full viv because I-don't-even-know-why? Because other players have been overdoing magickers whilst complaining that there are too many? This is not okay.

I'm not sure who you are so I don't know definitely how much karma you have now. But if you say you can access all the classes via spec app, then I would assume 2. That would put you at 4 after the transition. You can spec app up to 4 karma levels above.. giving you access to the majority of magick classes and needing only 2 more karma (which would now not require a 6 month wait for a review to gain) to have access to everything again?

I'm at two karma, yes. On my clan account for absolutely non-nefarious reasons, I promise.
This is two anxiety-inducing karma reviews (there's a reason I've never put one in over the past years), six months + whatever is the wait time for those requests, and special apps just to get back to where I am now. In the best-case scenario, assuming that none of those 3+ requests get denied.

[Usiku]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

[seltzer]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

I see this.

From the outside looking in it just strikes me as a wildly unrealistic expectation. It's ambitious, and I like that, but I think that it requires a level of staff buy-in that doesn't appear to level with what I've seen in the last few years. I can imagine it working for a few months before the rumor and negativity mill gets whipped up into insane levels that are untenable and create an absolutely nightmarish working condition.

On one hand I think the larger gradient of choices is a great change and on the other I think the potential for insane reddit/discord/shitter board drama is off the charts and a massive step backward.

I really support the changes and I hope I'm wrong about the one enormous red flag.

[Pariah]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

I think it's great in "Theory" but you guys are too few and far between to be paying attention that much.  Otherwise I wouldn't have to explain where I've hit the various points of "leadership" in a Karma review, if staff was paying attention they would have just seen it.

[dunecrawler]

We're just skeptical because that has never worked great in the past, not even in the time before karma reviews. It also puts off peak players at another disadvantage - there's just less staff watching, even with the occasional EU staffer. Between absences and time zone conflicts, clan staff seem to be rarely available at the same time as me.

Can storytellers give karma to people outside of the clans/area they're overseeing?

[lostinspace]

A lot of people seem to be missing the main point of the new system, which is karma being granted outside of karma reviews, within shorter timeframes where applicable.

That's all fine and well, but I'm not going to give the new system the benefit of the doubt, because it doesn't give me benefit of the doubt. The system says, directly, that 13+ roles that I was trusted with prior to the change I am no longer trusted with. And that I should TRUST that I will earn them back expeditiously through this system. I don't believe that. If it was meant to be so quick and easy to earn them back, why were they removed in the first place? If they're not meant to be earned back quickly and easily, why I am being punished with the removal of those roles?

[Feu de Joie]

Raptor_Dan
Jimpka_Moss
SickofDreaming
Kevo

Bonfire, signing off.


Thanks for the good times, players and staff. I aim to build a decentralized RPI, that invests 'Trust' into it's players and only removes it after bad behavior, a place that recognizes abuse can only come with power, and that bad behavior from players is bad behavior, but bad behavior from staff (because of the power dynamics) is abuse. Abuse often hurts, but so can disabusing someone of their previously held ignorance....



Which is why some many players' opinions seem to pain you.

[Master Color]

I don't think there's anything substantively wrong with the policy reform. If I had the time and the effort to put in I'm certain I could build myself up from 6 to 10 in less than six months. And if I get stuck on 8 because I don't put in enough bios? Ohhhh nooooo. I don't have to spend 100 hours of spam casting my void magicks in a cave, I guess. 

The bigger problem is that I don't think this is going to change anything. Usiku and Brokkr are going to burn themselves out by implementing this. It won't solve any of Armageddon's problems. And if the game is still here in five years, the next batch of staff will be scratching their heads wondering if they should make a 5 step karma system.

TLDR What we really need is a full guild krok elementalist. Make it eleven karma.

[Lotion]

we take those

[Halaster]

In light of https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60029.msg1099622.html#msg1099622 I'm curious if anyone intends to change their vote (click Remove Vote at the top if you do)