Drawing the short straw

[perfecto]

Lately I've gone through a slew of new characters that seem to all be cursed. lol

Been getting pretty brutal stat rolls as well, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience?

Even stats that don't seem -that- bad haven't been translating to coded play.  Just as an example I rolled up a Scout that had Good strength and a sword that was average, and my blows were bouncing off of a Scrab.
That result doesn't seem right to me looking at that combination of factors? 

I know a lot has been changed with combat recently and weapons and bonuses ext.  Just thought I'd ask and see if anyone else feels like things aren't working quite as intended for their characters.

[mansa]

One of the changes to strength was this - Your strength bonus to damage is now random.

Previously, you may have received a +2 to damage due to your strength...  Or +6 to damage.
The damage bonus is split in half - and you're guaranteed half of it.  The other half is a dice roll, from 0 up to your half max.


eg:
If you previously had a +6 to damage bonus, it is now:
+3 to damage, and +1d3

So when you hit someone, you may do +3 or you may do +6 damage.  Perhaps that is one of the reasons you are thinking you are hitting less.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59208.0.html


The other thing is that any negative damage bonuses to combat have been completely removed... So you no longer have a weapon attack that is 1d6 and then -3 to damage.

[Yelinak]

Stats matter way too much to be as random as they are. While the relative balance between one stat and another may have improved with recent changes (strength is no longer 800% better than everything else), the fact of the matter is that your character can be terrible or godlike depending entirely on raw luck. It's still not a good system.

It has been one of the biggest failings of this game, and although it was acceptable back in the dawn of time when all anyone knew was the D&D style of stat-rolling, gaming as a hobby and artform moved past those primitive ideas long ago. Armageddon just didn't follow suit.

I can make two characters of the exact same race, class, subclass and age, and one might come out with
   "Your strength is very good, your agility is above average, your wisdom is poor, your endurance is average"
And the other gets
   "Your strength is exceptional, your agility is extremely good, your wisdom is above average, your endurance is extremely good."

That's a gigantic gulf in raw character power. The latter PC will perform significantly better in every possible way. None of those advantages were earned, none of them came with tradeoffs, I never had to give up anything for it or anything like that. It's just an objectively superior character, based entirely on dicerolls that nobody had any control over.

This creates three problems:
- A statistically improbable number of Zalanthan nobodies wade directly into the Silt Sea or nearest gortok den for no readily apparent reason, wasting staff's time
- Some characters are created with extremely barebones descriptions and backgrounds because the player anticipated the likelihood of the above tragedy
- Some characters have a natural advantage in coded endeavors, be it PvP fights, performance in the eyes of their clan, sheer long-term survival, or any other type of success

All of this could be avoided with a more sensible stat system. There have been plenty of suggestions in the past, including such things as:
- A plain points-buying system (I'm not a big fan, but it would fix the fundamental problem)
- Complete removal of numerical stats, replaced by racial bonuses and the opportunity for each character to pick a single perk like 'strong,' 'agile,' etc. which conveys a static bonus (elegant solution, but kind of MUSHy)
- Keeping a uniform pool of total stat points for each race that then roll with random distribution but a fixed final sum, affected afterwards by class/age/whatever. If you rolled high in A and B, C and D will then be correspondingly low. If you didn't roll very high in A and B, C and D will be pretty good, compensating for your lack of any really high stats
- Allowing for more than one reroll (this doesn't really fix the problem, IMO)

In any case, stats make far too big a difference in coded success to let them be as random as they are. The difference between great and poor stats are easily as significant as the difference between advanced and master in a skill. The degree of variance in stats is comparable to having your character's ultimate skillcaps roll with a 20-point degree of variance. How would you like it if your scout caps its archery at 60 while Steve's scout can get to 80, based on nothing but a mindless diceroll upon first entering the game? And it can never be changed? Did Steve deserve that? Did you?

It just doesn't make anything better. The traditional arguments like "people are not created equally" and "my favorite character had crap stats" don't really hold any water. The fact of the matter is that this is a game whose rules carefully govern every coded measure of our characters except for one of the most impactful. Your skill potential is set in stone based on your class and subclass, your authority within a clan is tightly governed by your rank, you pick your exact age and height and weight and everything. Imagine creating a character and it just asked you to pick an age bracket like 'adult' that randomly set your PC's age anywhere from 22 to 38. That's how daft the statrolling system is.

It simply isn't good. It doesn't produce good results. It frequently produces bad results. Never any good ones. In no conceivable way is the game made better by the fact that some characters come out awesome or shitty, especially because any experienced player can tell this from the very start. It's not as if you play the character for a year and then you gradually come to realize that "ah, you know, maybe I won't actually become the best pickpocket in Tuluk after all. What an enriching journey and satisfying character development it was to arrive at that conclusion!" You just point at the Map of Kings or whatever the hell it's called, see that you rolled 'very good' in your first stat priority, with the rest coming out even lower, and immediately know that the PC is junk.

Change this. It's overdue by about fifteen years.

[Wday]

Almost wish we could get the stats of our next character before we write them.  So you make a buff warrior or write a average person.

[Kavrick]

Armageddon is the only rpi/mud i've played where players can start with vaaastly different stats and it's also defended. The difference between playing a well-statted character and a badly statted character is pretty massive and you have no real control of it and are expected to play out the stats despite not being able to rectify them.

[Windstorm]

I have a few thoughts! Apologies for the longer post.

First, yes, the differences can be pretty extreme. Even after recent adjustments, this is particularly glaring when it comes to strength. Even when I'm not making a combat PC, I feel obligated to prioritize strength. It's THE stat. If I had it in mind when I made a PC to make them a great warrior, I'd be pretty sad if I came out with middling strength. I've never played a low-wisdom PC either because I'm not sure I could play that well, but I imagine that would be difficult also, in some situations.

That said... I don't write PCs that way. My PCs always have basic, unimpressive regular-people backgrounds and they only become impressive or spectacular (or not) through play. I'm never disappointed in this way because I don't start them out saying, "This is going to be a great warrior!" They might, or they might not. They might just laze around, charm people or make chairs; these don't actually require great stats. They might have great stats and use them on making chairs. Not everyone with great potential develops it. Plenty of my PCs have not.

Accordingly, I don't come in with those expectations or goals and it would probably be better if everyone also came in like that. But some people just don't and that's not how they write them or dream up their PC.

They write PCs thinking of their potential and when they've mastered DA SWORD or DA MAGIX and they're not really happy with their PC until they get there or at least knowing it's a possibility. They'll then go about developing their skills and lamenting, sometimes, that it takes so long. The fantasy is not complete until it's powerful! When this type of player rolls into the game and they've got good strength on their warrior they're not thinking of the PC they wrote or where they could go, but where they can't. And they can't help it, that's just their thought process and it feels like a waste of time. I assume this is why some PCs stumble into the game and suicide. They will never be the strongest, mightiest warrior so they give up on the concept from day one even though they would have never reached this potential anyway, likely.

Coming in with a PC that statistically speaking does not have supreme greatness potential is deflating to a lot of people and it can't really be helped. It's certainly a waste of time and creativity. My favorite PC desc I'd ever written I was immensely sad to realize may die very quickly. It didn't work out that way, but to me, that was more valuable than the set of stats she rolled.

We all have priorities and visions for where our PCs can go. Randomness has its pitfalls. Sometimes, it's exciting. Sometimes, it's deflating. Sometimes it doesn't matter like you think it does, but to my knowledge this has been something that's always been debated since I got here. I doubt it will change much.

For my own play, I have mixed feelings myself. A poor stat roll doesn't deter me from enjoying a PC, at all. But a great one does, I admit, excite me at the possibilities. On the other hand, for some it's devastating and ruinous for a PC concept.

All I might suggest is a possibility to reroll or adjust somehow later in life, for PCs that have lived long enough to earn it, or spent a lot of time trying to develop themselves in some particular way.

[Kavrick]

One idea that was floated around the discord was the idea of having an array. Especially if it was an option so even after your stat reroll, if you felt like your stats still weren't really up to scratch, you could take an array that still gives you strengths and weaknesses. Something like 1 exceptional, 1 very good, 1 good and 1 average/below average, this way everyone who enjoys rng or a little bit of consistency can be happy, and I don't really think it would have a downside to anyone.

[Master Color]

Another gamey system that incentivizes poor play.

[Tailong]

I have never played an RPI of any manner that didn't have randomized stats. From MUDs to tabletop, your stats are always random, or based of the role of dice. You get to pick what you want to be the highest, then next, and next and so on.

In the manner of fairness, it should always be random. Period. No scales, no averages, no arrays. Random.

[Yelinak]

I have never played an RPI of any manner that didn't have randomized stats. From MUDs to tabletop, your stats are always random, or based of the role of dice. You get to pick what you want to be the highest, then next, and next and so on.

In the manner of fairness, it should always be random. Period. No scales, no averages, no arrays. Random.

I obviously don't know which RPIs you've played, but having myself experienced Armageddon, Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur (all three versions), AtonementRPI, ParallelRPI, and quite a few more that now escape my memory, Armageddon stands out as unique amongst them in enabling the possibility that one's character is created either unusually gifted or unusually crap based on statrolls. None of those other games had that. If you've played other RPIs that followed this philosophy, they must have been ones I've never heard of.

Now, some of those had a degree of randomness in stats. For instance, I recall that the ones based on the RPI Engine (SoI, Atonement, etc.) had a static pool of something like 100 points, with a +/- of... 3? 5? Something along those lines? To put it into perspective, Armageddon's statrolling system would be more like 100 with a +/- of 50. That's how absolutely insane the degree of variance is. Completely absurd, gamebreaking, and stupid.

Nobody can say that this game's statrolling system is the norm unless they're comparing it exclusively to things like AD&D 2nd Edition and other such games from the nineties. Anything else is wildly dishonest. In saying that this degree of randomness in stats is the norm within this genre of games, you are either knowingly lying (for what purpose, who knows) or have not acquainted yourself with any game that came out after the turn of the millennium.

More importantly, this sort of wildly randomized stat system came from a time when people sat around a table with close friends and a Dungeon Master who had a hand in everything that goes on. If Joe rolled absolutely nutty stats while Jill got utterly shafted, it was expected that the DM would account for this in his/her decisions. The DM might decide that those goblins see Joe's musclebound barbarian as a bigger threat and gang up on him while Jill's puny character with stats far below average is given leeway to come up with a clever solution.

No such service is rendered to any player of this game. If you got godlike stats, it's just pure win with no disadvantages. If you got shit stats, you're just screwed forever, and it directly impacts your character's options, chances of long-term survival, and general success in life. Your stats directly determine how good your character is at the things that they (presumably, supposing you actually do anything that invokes coded checks) are all about.

With posts like yours, given the total lack of any understanding and the fierce opposition to any measure of fairness, I always wonder if the player is of the kind who walks two or three PCs into the Silt Sea before getting a godlike roll, and then defends this system just because they want to protect the advantages they get out of that. Nothing else makes sense, to be honest. If someone says they just don't care at all about stats, I'm a lot more understanding--but when someone actively defends the gamebreaking imbalances that this level of statrolling randomness brings to the game, I cannot think of any reasoning behind it except disingenuous, self-serving motives.

[Tailong]

Says a lot without saying anything, just goes straight to attacks.

RPIs are not about winning. I do not care what my stats are. I have never suicided over stats, or at all,  nor stored a character. Since I came back, I have had two. I have played every RPI since 1994, and I stand by what I said. I didn't say it was perfect, and I didn't go into details about how each RPI decides its stats, or randomness, because there is no need. Random, however it is obtained is the way to go.

If people put more effort in actual roleplay as they do in complaining about the game or mechanics, this would be an amazing place. Efforts would be better suited and more constructive without the constant stream of bellyaching, and actually provide real solutions rather than say "its sucks, change it". I didn't dislike some of your suggestions, Yelinak, as they maintain my quota of 'randomness'. But, who am I but someone with 'disingenuous, self-serving motives'.

[Dune Bunny]

I'm one of those sillies that's fine with the assigning of stats as they current are, and try to play each character as rolled. If anything is ever egregiously wacky with my stats, I've found that staff are very willing to hear me out, and sometimes remedy the problem.

That said, if a change is truly needed; why not keep things as they are, and allow the birthday bonus to become a choice?

--------------------------------
<sup>Congratulations, it's your birthday, you turned 31 today!

You've become older, and a bit more experienced in life!

Please choose the statistic you wish to have improved over your last year of experience!

(Type "Enhance" with your choice of stat behind it. Strength, Agility, Wisdom, Endurance.)</sup>
--------------------------------

Heck, allow it to mesh with the usual birthday chance even, I'll never decry more stats. =P

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

I think the 'birthday chance' is actually a set graph of 'this race has this percentage of this stat at this age'
Like, if you're 18, your agility is 120% of your base agility, but at 30 it's 80%, etc etc. That sort of thing. Which is how Absolutely Incredibles exist - they're Exceptionals plus an age bonus.

[Trevalyan]

I obviously don't know which RPIs you've played, but having myself experienced Armageddon, Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur (all three versions), AtonementRPI, ParallelRPI, and quite a few more that now escape my memory, Armageddon stands out as unique amongst them in enabling the possibility that one's character is created either unusually gifted or unusually crap based on statrolls. None of those other games had that. If you've played other RPIs that followed this philosophy, they must have been ones I've never heard of.

With posts like yours, given the total lack of any understanding and the fierce opposition to any measure of fairness, I always wonder if the player is of the kind who walks two or three PCs into the Silt Sea before getting a godlike roll, and then defends this system just because they want to protect the advantages they get out of that. Nothing else makes sense, to be honest. If someone says they just don't care at all about stats, I'm a lot more understanding--but when someone actively defends the gamebreaking imbalances that this level of statrolling randomness brings to the game, I cannot think of any reasoning behind it except disingenuous, self-serving motives.

First of all, I've played Shadows of Isildur and Harshlands. Stats afford powers and abilities that would be firmly locked behind rolecalls in Armageddon, and the stats affect a lot of things that they wouldn't here. In fact, this is the first I've seen anyone claiming that stats in Armageddon are more pronounced than the gulf between humans and Olog-Hai. Not to mention that at least Armageddon offers psionics, magick, and advanced military roles to humans that were by no means exclusive in SoI.

And despite having only one character in a position to talk about it, skill (character and player) means a LOT more in Armageddon than it does in competitors. In fact, humans with otherwise exceptional stats might find themselves losing regularly against survivors with extraordinarily long lives IG (5-10 years in character).

[Kavrick]

Just a question I have for people who are against changing the system. If someone has the choice to pick between something like point-buy, an array or having random stats, why are you against someone else having the choice, how does it negatively effect you in such a way that you would prefer it stays the same? I'd like to think there's a reason why TTRPGs over the years have pretty much completely phased out rolling for stats in favor of point-buy and array systems, or at the very least had them as options. I just personally don't understand the attitude of "people must play the same way as me, even if it doesn't actually effect me." Not saying that anyone in particular is saying that word-for-word, but that's what it feels like sometimes.

[perfecto]

Looks like we've gotten a little off topic from my OP, which was simply asking if any other players had been experiencing similar issues when creating their new characters with the recent game changes?

If anybody actually wants to chime in about that question that would be nice.. otherwise this thread can be finished with by staff as they see fit.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I will admit that poor statted PC's I've rolled in the past have been used for exploration. Taking risks  with them I might not have taken if the PC had good stats. It took a long time before I stopped doing that. It's been rare, though, to have poor stats, especially since the reroll option and the ability to revert has been implemented.
Since then, more than one of my long lived PC's had only middling stats. I like random. Point buys and similar systems end up with everyone being the same, and that's boring.
If it bothers you when you roll a crappy pc, just let yourself be a victim of the PC bandits. No one is ever gonna call it bad RP (not even staff I bet) if you die in an interesting way for someone elses entertainment.

[flurry]

No, I have not seen the issues asked about in the original post.  But I'm not sure anecdotes are going to be all that informative.  If you're seeing it, you're seeing it.

Also...

hauls out soap box

The only age-based modifier a character should have is current age not starting age.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

I like the idea of an array, but I think the choice should be between a reroll OR an array, or you're just having your cake and eating it. So you get your initial rng stats and you can either go with an array or roll the dice. Being able to reroll and THEN take an array sounds too... Comfortable? I dunno. That probably sounds mean, but I think it spoils some of the intent of the system. Or at least the vibe. But choosing an array or a reroll is still a great deal of freedom.

[Trevalyan]

Lately I've gone through a slew of new characters that seem to all be cursed. lol

The last time I played Armageddon was more than a decade ago. Personally, I think the system has changed dramatically and for the better by comparison. I'm pretty sure skill levels affect critical strike chance and the ability to bypass major armor. Definitely train up your skills, and you'll be slaughtering scrabs easy. It's never been easier to make a character good without twinking, to my mind.

[Master Color]

Lately I've gone through a slew of new characters that seem to all be cursed. lol

The last time I played Armageddon was more than a decade ago. Personally, I think the system has changed dramatically and for the better by comparison. I'm pretty sure skill levels affect critical strike chance and the ability to bypass major armor. Definitely train up your skills, and you'll be slaughtering scrabs easy. It's never been easier to make a character good without twinking, to my mind.

That sounds like a vast improvement.

I once played a character that could fight tarantulas no problem but needed to use poison to actually do damage to them.

[Kaathe]

I have never played an RPI of any manner that didn't have randomized stats. From MUDs to tabletop, your stats are always random, or based of the role of dice. You get to pick what you want to be the highest, then next, and next and so on.

I assume you are basing this on pre-2008 tabletops and RPIs. Times have changed. Dragonrealms went to fixed stats in 2008. Discworld has point buy. On tabletop, D&D went to stat arrays and point buy in 2008 with 4th Edition. I have played D&D 4E and 5E, 13th Age, FATE, and a few Powered by the Apocalypse games. They all have equal stats or point buy.

RPIs are not about winning. I do not care what my stats are. I have never suicided over stats, or at all, nor stored a character.

I agree with you here, but I don't know if random stats are good or bad for a perma-death RPI which features fast-paced PvP and PvE. But I certainly see role-playing focused games heading away from random stats for the past 15 years.

[najdorf]

There is still the mystery element of randomness that attract a lot of players too. I would recommend give random stats with a slightly narrower range, then drop 1 point from each (str, agility, wisdom, endurance), and let players allocate 4 points on top of the random.

[Tuannon]

I think an array is fine, but ground work will need to be done as to what the points values for each step of a stat is..
So I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Riev]

Ideally, the system would be that a random array would provide a better than average chance of having stats higher than a point buy would allow, but a point buy would let you get the stats that make your role what you envision.

On Perfectos ACTUAL posting, though? I have noticed the last 3-4 characters I've rolled have absolutely trash fucking stats. Fighter with bonus to strength, prioritize strength to be the highest? Good strength. Miscreant with an AGI bonus, and prioritize AGI only? Low EG agility and all my other stats are BA.