Drawing the short straw

[Kavrick]

There is still the mystery element of randomness that attract a lot of players too. I would recommend give random stats with a slightly narrower range, then drop 1 point from each (str, agility, wisdom, endurance), and let players allocate 4 points on top of the random.

That's why I think there's no harm in giving you an option to either do an array or roll as normal, there's no real downsides to it being optional as far as I can tell.

[Inks]

I like the random stats.

I have had to throw out a couple of spec apps over the years due to them being all average/below average but that is a small price to pay for variation amongst PCs.

My elf crimeboss Krak who founded the East Side Kings along with Sixx was a burglar with "good" agi as his best physical stat (str below average elf). He died because I logged in drunk with a keepalive on my client. But still when he was around he was mega successful and ESK existed in one form or another (Family,Association etc) for 50 IC years

[Yelinak]

There is still the mystery element of randomness that attract a lot of players too.

I must say I really doubt that Armageddon gains any new players by merit of the fact that its statrolling system features the opportunity for your stats to be awesome or horrible based on sheer luck. Surely almost no new players even know that this is the case when they arrive, and if they did, it seems unlikely that it was what attracted them. I've certainly never heard anybody say so. On the contrary, it's a frequent complaint. It comes up once or twice a year.

Meanwhile, I think it deters a non-zero number of players and drives them away once they discover that it's the way the game works. That seems much more likely. Couldn't begin to predict what percentage of players may have quit because of this unbalanced stat system, and it may be low, but I'll bet some have, whereas I strongly doubt that this system ever earned the game any players who chose to play because of it. The notion itself seems comical, to be honest.

At best, most players learn to tolerate this system in spite of itself. In my book, that's a sign of a bad system that ought to be changed. Who would accept something like this in a game that costs money? While Armageddon doesn't cost money to play, games that cost money tailor their mechanics to what the majority wants, and it would take quite a lot of ignorance to deny that gaming has largely done away with the concept of 90s-style fully random stats. That's because people don't like it, and are less likely to play a game that has it.

Hell, even D&D-inspired games like World of Xeen (1992) and Baldur's Gate (1998) offered infinite rerolls in order to reduce the nonsensical imbalance of stat randomness in games that lacked a Dungeon Master who could throw the unlucky players a bone while making life harder for the lucky ones. The "screw you" style of stat randomness was going out of fashion even in the era that corresponds to Armageddon's infancy. Everyone knew it was a bad system. It was only ever fine in a tabletop setting where the DM could adjust everything according to each individual player's capabilities, and where everyone was friends who would almost certainly never need to compete against each other.

Those whose livelihoods depend on the quality of the games they make have long ago realized this and changed their games accordingly, and that says all that needs said, if you ask me. If Arm was pay2play, this stat system would cost the game money. The fact that it isn't pay2play doesn't somehow turn it into a good system. It's still bad for all the same reasons.

Many of the same arguments against changing the current system were also voiced back when people (spearheaded by yours truly, not to toot my own horn) campaigned for the ability to prioritize stats in 2005 or thereabouts. Thanks, Morgenes. Before then, stats were entirely random and you couldn't even choose how to order them. Same exact talking points from the naysayers: Oh, the randomness adds character variety! Oh, roleplay takes a hit if people have any control over their stats!

It didn't, and for the same reason, it won't hurt if Armageddon's absurdly archaic stat system is brought up to date again. It's woefully overdue and has no place in 2023. I'm entirely certain that some players have quit this game over its stat system while not one has become a persistent, integrated member of the community because of it. I've heard players say the former, but never the latter.

[Synthesis]

I have never played an RPI of any manner that didn't have randomized stats. From MUDs to tabletop, your stats are always random, or based of the role of dice. You get to pick what you want to be the highest, then next, and next and so on.

In the manner of fairness, it should always be random. Period. No scales, no averages, no arrays. Random.

D&D has a standard array, and a point-buy system.

[Yelinak]

D&D has a standard array, and a point-buy system.

Indeed, and introduced the concept as early as 3rd edition, even if that edition held it as an optional choice left to the DM's discretion. 3rd Ed came out in year of our Lord 2000. Not exactly a modern concept. That's around the time every competent game designer realized that it did nobody any good have stats rolled wholly at random. It really became outdated in the 90s. Baffling, frankly, for Armageddon to have clung to the concept for so long when it does the game no good.

[Diesel]

Attributes should be like GTA. You start at a base and then your ig actions determine how high they get. You know, running to build stamina, climbing to build agility, lifting weights to build strength, haggling and learning different languages to build wisdom, with other ways as well, of course.
ETA: Class/subclass/race, etc... bonuses would be applied to your base attributes at the start of your character.

[titansfan]

Just let us see stats before we make the desc and stuff. I'd love that.

I've had so so stat rolls prior to my current pc in regards to OP topic.

[Kavrick]

Attributes should be like GTA. You start at a base and then your ig actions determine how high they get. You know, running to build stamina, climbing to build agility, lifting weights to build strength, haggling and learning different languages to build wisdom, with other ways as well, of course.
ETA: Class/subclass/race, etc... bonuses would be applied to your base attributes at the start of your character.

Honestly would be cool if certain skills had stats associated with them and the higher you skilled up said skill, the better your stat would get. Like increasing your agility by practicing your sneak, lumberjacking increasing your strength, scan increasing your wisdom, etc.

[roughneck]

I like the idea of stats being a little bit random, but the system we have is too random. Some caps on either end would make sense, I think.

Like it or not, people are less likely to play a PC with bad stats. It's just less fun and harder to get started. If the goal is more players, make stats more predictable and balanced.

[Riev]

If we make it so nobody can roll under Below Average, then Below Average becomes the new Poor.

[Kavrick]

If we make it so nobody can roll under Below Average, then Below Average becomes the new Poor.

I don't think the issue is with the lowest rolls, but the range of rolls. The difference between below average and exceptional is pretty massive for something you cant change past the initial rolling.

[roughneck]

If we make it so nobody can roll under Below Average, then Below Average becomes the new Poor.

Not really. If instead of a 1 - 10 stat range, you only have stats in the 3 - 8 range, the difference between high and low stats is reduced.

[Kavrick]

I think rather than changing the minimum or maximum, the best thing to do would be make it so it constantly rerolls behind the scenes until you get within a certain 'total' range of stats. That way you can still roll a highly specialized character, or a more jack of all trades. More to just load the dice a little so you can't roll something like four averages but also can't roll some godlike stats and get all exceptional. I think it's important for character's to have strengths and weaknesses, even if being even across the board counts as that, it's both more enjoyable and more interesting than both the potential of being a superhuman or being a complete invalid, because let's be honest, average is not average.

[Master Color]

If we make it so nobody can roll under Below Average, then Below Average becomes the new Poor.

I don't think the issue is with the lowest rolls, but the range of rolls. The difference between below average and exceptional is pretty massive for something you cant change past the initial rolling.

This. I know there have been some changes to strength damage calculation but the difference between Average and Exceptional human strength has always been bugshit.

Not even for pvp. For literally any outdoors character it's the difference between wasting five minutes killing that unavoidable agro creature and spending 30 seconds. If you had AI strength the longest it took to kill a scrab was probably less than the combat delay.

[Kavrick]

If we make it so nobody can roll under Below Average, then Below Average becomes the new Poor.

I don't think the issue is with the lowest rolls, but the range of rolls. The difference between below average and exceptional is pretty massive for something you cant change past the initial rolling.

This. I know there have been some changes to strength damage calculation but the difference between Average and Exceptional human strength has always been bugshit.

Not even for pvp. For literally any outdoors character it's the difference between wasting five minutes killing that unavoidable agro creature and spending 30 seconds.

Yeah, this is pretty much why I feel so strongly about stats. Stats have a pretty massive effect on your gameplay and you have no control over them. I've had characters with 80hp and characters with 120hp, I shouldn't have to point out how a 50% increase in max HP is kinda a huge deal. And this is on top of stuff like carry weight, damage, dodging, ability to hide, ability to find hiding things, etc etc

Stats have a pretty huge weight on literally everything you do and the fact that they're completely RNG with no way to change them past character creation is absolutely archaic when compared to modern standards for game design. There's a reason why in the majority of modern-day TTRPGs, randomized stats are considered a gimmick and not the default. Array and point buy has been the default for at least ten years now.

[mansa]

In the conversations about stats.

I wish there was a way that characters can increase their stats to "good", after doing a certain number of things in game.  I consider "good" to be something that most characters should strive, and have goals that their characters can reach to increase it.

Perhaps not Wisdom - but ...
If there was some way to increase your endurance, agility, and strength over time - until you are about the equivalent of "27" in human years... so that your stats can increase to "good".

Or, perhaps, each year that goes by, it automatically increases your lowest stat by 1 until it is "good" - up until the age of 27.


So - you can automatically make it grow.
You can force the characters to do a certain task and make it grow.  Ideally it would be something that is coded - like typing 'exercise' and having the game randomly roll a dice, and if you pass the result you can get it up 1 level... and then it prevents you from gaining again for 90 days.

Again, to a cap of "good".

[whengravityfails]

Just a question I have for people who are against changing the system. If someone has the choice to pick between something like point-buy, an array or having random stats, why are you against someone else having the choice, how does it negatively effect you in such a way that you would prefer it stays the same? I'd like to think there's a reason why TTRPGs over the years have pretty much completely phased out rolling for stats in favor of point-buy and array systems, or at the very least had them as options. I just personally don't understand the attitude of "people must play the same way as me, even if it doesn't actually effect me." Not saying that anyone in particular is saying that word-for-word, but that's what it feels like sometimes.

Why? Because I think the current system is fine and I'd rather have the coders focus on other, more important things as opposed to making something new for a few people to choose because they don't like the current system. As someone else pointed out, skills matter a whole lot more than stats in the medium to long term.

Also, I loathe the idea of "builds" taking over the game where every class is built to a specific way - and you know it will happen. We will have more bland  sameness which is boring and contemptible. Part of the reason why I like Armageddon is its hewing to the old ways before everything had to be balanced out.

[Jimpka_Moss]

If you, Staff, want to increase roleplaying efforts and quality from players, especially high karma players, then I believe the change in the rules to requests for stat improvements with logs included should be repealed. That's a positive interaction, or it could be, if instead of an instant denial for things that didn't meet Arm standards, an explanation of Arm standards and why the log fell short, and how to reapply and submit again, that could be pretty positive interaction for staff to have with players, and keep crap stats from ruining a character.

Two a year
Can't go over 'good' without real, actual equipment and some serious time commitments
abnormal stuff applies to wisdom, like roleplay sessions with people from different areas of life, or actual tutoring

and for standards, it's literally emoting, and reinforcing that emoting has real world results, not just 'flavor' for the hack and slash.

[Master Color]

Just a question I have for people who are against changing the system. If someone has the choice to pick between something like point-buy, an array or having random stats, why are you against someone else having the choice, how does it negatively effect you in such a way that you would prefer it stays the same? I'd like to think there's a reason why TTRPGs over the years have pretty much completely phased out rolling for stats in favor of point-buy and array systems, or at the very least had them as options. I just personally don't understand the attitude of "people must play the same way as me, even if it doesn't actually effect me." Not saying that anyone in particular is saying that word-for-word, but that's what it feels like sometimes.

Why? Because I think the current system is fine and I'd rather have the coders focus on other, more important things as opposed to making something new for a few people to choose because they don't like the current system. As someone else pointed out, skills matter a whole lot more than stats in the medium to long term.

Also, I loathe the idea of "builds" taking over the game where every class is built to a specific way - and you know it will happen. We will have more bland  sameness which is boring and contemptible. Part of the reason why I like Armageddon is its hewing to the old ways before everything had to be balanced out.

The current system is a bad one whether you think "builds" will take over or not. Expecting anyone to persist on a mediocre stat roll in a hyper pvp hack and slash game is a bad joke.

[whengravityfails]

I've persisted fine on some mediocre rolls and it's only a hack and slash PvP game if you choose it to be. I've been able to avoid PvP combat almost entirely when I wasn't seeking it and I seek it rarely.  People put too much emphasis on stats for this reason.

[Yelinak]

I've persisted fine on some mediocre rolls and it's only a hack and slash PvP game if you choose it to be. I've been able to avoid PvP combat almost entirely when I wasn't seeking it and I seek it rarely.  People put too much emphasis on stats for this reason.

None of this is a valid argument for wildly random statrolls. Is there some believable reason why you're against improving the system? Do you want it to remain such that a character can be massively under- or overpowered for all of its life based purely on blind luck? If so, why? If not, why be against changes?

[Kavrick]

This is going to sound passive aggressive, but still waiting on people to decide whether stats are so impactful that making them more balanced would 'ruin' the game, or that stats matter so little that they shouldn't be changed. Although for the latter, if stats really don't have such a big impact, making it so players have more control over them wouldn't be a big deal.

[Coda]

This is going to sound passive aggressive, but still waiting on people to decide whether stats are so impactful that making them more balanced would 'ruin' the game, or that stats matter so little that they shouldn't be changed. Although for the latter, if stats really don't have such a big impact, making it so players have more control over them wouldn't be a big deal.

Because stats don't matter near as much as you've been led to believe it's likely not worth the effort of making the change.

[Kavrick]

This is going to sound passive aggressive, but still waiting on people to decide whether stats are so impactful that making them more balanced would 'ruin' the game, or that stats matter so little that they shouldn't be changed. Although for the latter, if stats really don't have such a big impact, making it so players have more control over them wouldn't be a big deal.

Because stats don't matter near as much as you've been led to believe it's likely not worth the effort of making the change.

I haven't been led to believe anything, it's from my own experience. Even without looking at the code, you can get up to 50% more HP from having high endurance. And people always talk about how much your attacks bounce unless you have good strength and how having good agility makes you the perfect sparring partner. At this point I feel like it's just disingenuous to spread the idea that stats don't matter, because they really do.

Can you play a character with bad stats and survive? Absolutely.
Is it tedious, dangerous and generally less fun for a lot of folk compared to playing a good statted character? Also yes.

Even stuff like having good agility helping with being able to hold a shield/dual wield/two hand while riding is a pretty big factor. Skinning returns means having a good agility gives you more from skinning on average. High wisdom helps with making forage far better. I've experienced all of this, I don't get why people act like stats don't matter.

[Coda]

I was answering your question, the one above my post where you tried to accuse people telling you to calm down and roleplay of talking out of both sides of their mouths. Your statements tend to focus solely on coded power across threads (this thread, the magicker/mundane thread as recent examples) and it gives the sense of missing the forest for the trees when it comes to Armageddon as a game.  Additionally, your claims about the potential variance based on stats aren't realistic or representative of the game in a meaningful way.  If we're talking poor elf endurance to maximum hg endurance, then sure.  But on a same-race basis, you're saying things that are simply untrue.

I'm sorry you find low stat characters tedious - you don't have to play them, according to you they'll die quickly anyway and, even if they don't, a storage request is taking on average a day and a half.  If you see a 'below average' on your character, you can just request to store them.  It's pretty atypical to receive truly 'bad' stats, especially with a reroll, unless you go to an age extreme for some reason.

Looks like we've gotten a little off topic from my OP, which was simply asking if any other players had been experiencing similar issues when creating their new characters with the recent game changes?

If anybody actually wants to chime in about that question that would be nice.. otherwise this thread can be finished with by staff as they see fit.

I just saw this - No, it's just a string of luck on your part, or you're choosing ages that will lead to stat ranges you dislike.  I've seen pretty typical stat rolls across recent characters.